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[xenist]

Pretty sure with that avatar you already know the answer to that question.

But I don't see how PS:T's style would fit into a Late Medieval/Early Renaissance setting. Planescape was the "everything goes" setting of D&D. When you can run into a baatezu in a tavern quietly drinking his ale, having a leather strap and a loincloth deflect sword blows feels OK. But this strangeness only worked because it was a counterpoint to the more classical look of Forgotten Realms. Because it was a look you didn't expect coming into the game cold. Wackiness and strangeness don't work as well on their own for me. The world they're building does not seem like an "anything goes" world. The designs should reflect that.

The plate armor they've shown is absolutely correct. The leather armor they've shows is absolutely correct too. I don't know, maybe my being really into military history predisposes me positively to more correct armor rather than towards more idiosyncratic designs.

 

[Ledsen]

But I don't see how PS:T's style would fit into a Late Medieval/Early Renaissance setting. Planescape was the "everything goes" setting of D&D. When you can run into a baatezu in a tavern quietly drinking his ale, having a leather strap and a loincloth deflect sword blows feels OK. But this strangeness only worked because it was a counterpoint to the more classical look of Forgotten Realms. Because it was a look you didn't expect coming into the game cold. Wackiness and strangeness don't work as well on their own for me. The world they're building does not seem like an "anything goes" world. The designs should reflect that.

The plate armor they've shown is absolutely correct. The leather armor they've shows is absolutely correct too. I don't know, maybe my being really into military history predisposes me positively to more correct armor rather than towards more idiosyncratic designs.

Well there is tons of room for variation even if you want to keep it realistic. Silhouette, color choice, body type, face, hair, clothes... the possibilities are practically endless even within seemingly tight restraints. But really what people wanted was a more unique setting, not outrageous armor designs.

 

[xenist]

Well there is tons of room for variation even if you want to keep it realistic. Silhouette, color choice, body type, face, hair, clothes... the possibilities are practically endless even within seemingly tight restraints.

Actually no, there are not endless possibilities. Unless you're talking about one breastplate being grey and another one purple. But as a basic design one leather jerkin and another can be only be so different before one of the designs just becomes unusable. Or a chainmail hauberk. Or whichever piece of armor you prefer.

 

[subversus]

well, this new piece of art work is a bit better than previous ones but still it's too generic. I mean it looks like the scene at the gates of Moria but in reverse.

 

[Perkel]

Oh man Neogaf being Neogaf.

They said they use more traditional aproach to creating world and races but they didn't say it will be D&D world like with standard BG2 dialogues etc.

Now i will describe to you almost the same values in other game:

Elfs, Dvarwes, humans, half-orcs, half-ogres, gnomes world is filled with magic and there is also a lot of technology people using for example guns. They are not advanced thought. There are NPC which you can hire that have primary roles as healer, fighter , mage etc.

Is that Project Eternity ? No it's Arcanum aka wet dream of many people who don't like current high fantasy setting. That game ended steam-highfantasy.

When most of people were asked by Chris A. about what game they should do with kickstarter help. Most of people said go create your own game we will pledge to anything.

Because it looks like standard fantasy setting it doesn't mean it will be standard. Why people automatically assume that there will be no npc like Dak'kon ? Planescape wasn't excellent because it was created in planescape universe with it's uniqueness but because of writting and how you learn about lore.

Souls system already presented by Obsidian already have quite the potential to tell something amazing and create rich lore. And if we consider this is Obsidian aka. best witters in industry i am calm so you should be calm too.

And they already in update mixing up things. Wizards will use technological things and they aren't weak as in normal D&D game. Priest with a gun ? Looks ok to me.

What they have with Kickstarter is option to tell some mature story as it was in Planescape. And people at Obsidian forum are already providing good ideas like you recruit NPC, play most of the game with her and later she is your lover and then she was kidnapped and killed in revenge for some thing PC done to them.

Shades of grey people that is what we need or we will say the witcher lore and world is boring because they have dwarves and elfes ?

 

[zkylon]

I just feel like it fails to hook me in any way. Not saying it should be crazy stuff ala Planescape, but promotional art is supposed to amaze and excite and build upon the specifics of that particular game, and I'm not seeing that in anything they've shown so far.

It's not bad by any stretch of the imagination, but I feel they're playing way too safe with the art and I think we all wished for them to go a little more out there, considering the safety switch is off.

Also, take a good look at any concept art from The Witcher. It feels fresh and original and cool, in spite of being fantasy. It doesn't even compare.

 

[Ledsen]

Actually no, there are not endless possibilities. Unless you're talking about one breastplate being grey and another one purple. But as a basic design one leather jerkin and another can be only be so different before one of the designs just becomes unusable. Or a chainmail hauberk. Or whichever piece of armor you prefer.

But there is more to a character than the shape of the metal plates in their armor, that was my point.

 

[peakish]

I just feel like it fails to hook me in any way. Not saying it should be crazy stuff ala Planescape, but promotional art is supposed to amaze and excite and build upon the specifics of that particular game, and I'm not seeing that in anything they've shown so far.

It's not bad by any stretch of the imagination, but I feel they're playing way too safe with the art and I think we all wished for them to go a little more out there, considering the safety switch is off.

Also, take a good look at any concept art from The Witcher. It feels fresh and original and cool, in spite of being fantasy. It doesn't even compare.

Really? It sells dungeon crawling to me with that classic looking faceoff, seems specific enough for what they're selling

 

[xenist]

But there is more to a character than the shape of the metal plates in their armor, that was my point.

Unless you're talking about accessories, what? In case of heavily armored characters their armor is basically the only visual you get.

 

[Ledsen]

Unless you're talking about accessories, what? In case of heavily armored characters their armor is basically the only visual you get.

Well look at the characters we've seen so far. They have no helmets, so you have the whole face to play with which is huge. Then they have stuff like belts, shields, capes, loincloths, pouches, jewellery, wepons... all these things and how they look in terms of shape, size, colors etc make a HUGE difference in the design of the character. From what you're saying one would think that as soon as a character wears realistic-looking armor, no matter which artist draws them they will look exactly the same.

 

[subversus]

I might remove my pledge and buy the game on its own merits if they don't show any interesting art by the end of the campaign. I'm not excited at all. I'm playing PS:T now and it's glorious but this game doesn't resemble it in spirit at all. It's funded by now anyway. So far there are only two interesting things about this game apart from its heritage - souls mechanics and cipher class.

 

[Lime]

~2.3 million dollars of complete creative freedom -> have concept artists make a safe, generic fantasy art style.

 

[duckroll]

Well.... here's what I feel about the project right now. The honeymoon period of the Kickstarter definitely feels like it is over, and the updates have been a mix of interesting but not fully informative stuff as well as plain useless stuff (A full update on the music of the trailer without being able to confirm or commit to who would be doing the music in the actual game? Really?).

At this point I'm pretty sure Obsidian will make a pretty awesome game which I'll be happy playing. But I'm also not really excited by the updates and stuff much anymore. There's a lot of talk and generalizations without really showing the real deal. For example, it's nice that they detailed the classes, but Josh also references a lot of stuff which suggests hooks in the character creation system which haven't been detailed much (the classes all talk about variant types of the classes based on background and character traits, etc).

Honestly, what would get people really pumped would probably be:

- prototype screenshots to show what sort of graphics they're going for.

- a Character Creation walkthrough of sorts with mock up screens showing the extent of character creation, and what options the player has. This will also help visualize what the addition of each race and class actually means in terms of creating more real options for a player.

- better way of presenting artwork. Instead of just showing a random new piece of art each time, a better way of organizing the visual updates will help. Instead of showing an NPC, for example, why not show designs for a given class. Show a bunch of artwork showing the Fighter class, and how it looks for each different race and gender. That way people can also have more to talk about.

 

[peakish]

~2.3 million dollars of complete creative freedom -> have concept artists make a safe, generic fantasy art style.

Gamers back project to give developers complete freedom -> whine when it's not what they want.

At least we now know how publishers feel when they back projects.

Edit: Seriously though, the project is what it is and if it's not what you guys wanted it to be when you heard "Planescape Torment" and "Arcanum" I don't blame you for being disappointed. If you feel like removing your pledges, well, it's not suddenly going to change direction so why not? Pledge again later if they show some stuff you like.

 

[Midou]

This is the point of a kickstarter, for people to post opinions in the development process. I kind of feel they just aren't ready to release stuff and are trying to get out what they can. Once it's funded and they start on it without having to worry about spending their time trying to get more and more backers, perhaps we will see some more finalized assets.

 

[foobarry81]

- prototype screenshots to show what sort of graphics they're going for.

[...]

- better way of presenting artwork. Instead of just showing a random new piece of art each time, a better way of organizing the visual updates will help. Instead of showing an NPC, for example, why not show designs for a given class. Show a bunch of artwork showing the Fighter class, and how it looks for each different race and gender. That way people can also have more to talk about.

There are two sides to that story. You might remember the Kickstarter project "Cross of the Dutchman". They even showed a (preliminary) gameplay video. It didn't really help them to get funded. So it could work against them to show too much preliminary stuff.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/251995184/cross-of-the-dutchman?ref=live

 

[Sharp]

Gamers back project to give developers complete freedom -> whine when it's not what they want.

At least we now know how publishers feel when they back projects.

Who was the last dev who actually got carte blanche to do whatever they wanted from a publisher? Wright's EA team with Spore, maybe?

Spoiler

Which was awesome, fuck you guys!

It really doesn't happen that often. I don't personally mind the direction Obsidian is taking things in, because I think D&D still has a hell of a lot to offer, but I guess people were hoping that they wanted to do something more off-the-wall. In some ways, I get the sense that what people really wanted to back was Planescape 2 from Black Isle, not an Infinity Engine RPG from Obsidian. Maybe everyone is hoping that with enough money and complaints, that's what it will turn into?

 

[zkylon]

Really? It sells dungeon crawling to me with that classic looking faceoff, seems specific enough for what they're selling

It's what I'm getting at, Project Eternity is more than "dungeon crawling" and I wish they showed artwork that reflected that.

Gamers back project to give developers complete freedom -> whine when it's not what they want.

At least we now know how publishers feel when they back projects.

I think you're completely misrepresenting the sentiment. First, most people are just voicing their opinion on what little's been shown, both for good and bad. You can be supportive and critical about something. And second, people are still backing this and standing by Obsidian no matter their choices. We're not scumbag investors looking for a profit, we just want a great game. I find the comparison insulting.

Why is being critical of a game for some people always a synonym of whining and entitlement and whatever?

edit: just read your own edit, all cool

 

[EviLore]

Gamers back project to give developers complete freedom -> whine when it's not what they want.

At least we now know how publishers feel when they back projects.

Edit: Seriously though, the project is what it is and if it's not what you guys wanted it to be when you heard "Planescape Torment" and "Arcanum" I don't blame you for being disappointed. If you feel like removing your pledges, well, it's not suddenly going to change direction so why not? Pledge again later if they show some stuff you like.

Yeah, no

 

[peakish]

I'm guessing they're saving any screens of the game (if they think it's presentable) for the last push. So a week from now maybe?

Why is being critical of a game for some people always a synonym of whining and entitlement and whatever?

edit: just read your own edit, all cool

Not talking about entitlement, just raising the point that creative freedom kind of is what many people have seen as the point of KS. Discussing the art itself is good (I think it's all right as I've said), as is expressing disappointment (I agree with a lot of the talk about no characters standing out now, even if they're not bad), but it's clear what the game is now. In fact, high fantasy has been confirmed since like day 0 or something. Still talking about Planescape seems moot.

 

[duckroll]

There are two sides to that story. You might remember the Kickstarter project "Cross of the Dutchman". They even showed a (preliminary) gameplay video. It didn't really help them to get funded. So it could work against them to show to much preliminary stuff.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/251995184/cross-of-the-dutchman?ref=live

But this project is already funded. It has a ton of support. They're not really begging for people to be interested here. Once it has this level of support, I don't think it is ridiculous to expect them to show a little bit more and be more open to what we can expect from it right?

I think the Planetary Annihilation Kickstarter was a great example of a much more professional and well organized/presented campaign compared to this one. I fucking love Obsidian, but it's clear that promoting and marketing something is not really their strong suite. Maybe that's also why they have an issue with publishers and pitches.

 

[subversus]

I'm guessing they're saving any screens of the game (if they think it's presentable) for the last push. So a week from now maybe?

yeah, I think it is the case.

 

[Sharp]

But this project is already funded. It has a ton of support. They're not really begging for people to be interested here. Once it has this level of support, I don't think it is ridiculous to expect them to show a little bit more and be more open to what we can expect from it right?

I think the Planetary Annihilation Kickstarter was a great example of a much more professional and well organized/presented campaign compared to this one. I fucking love Obsidian, but it's clear that promoting and marketing something is not really their strong suite. Maybe that's also why they have an issue with publishers and pitches.

The Planetary Annihilation kickstarter was one of the best I've seen. Amazing concept video, ridiculously well thought-out stretch goals (content, presentation, and timing), hours of interviews which revealed that they'd clearly thought through pretty much every gaming mechanic, the ability to pluck the nostalgia strings with the TA name (they weren't shy about calling it a "spiritual successor"), and what I think is a highly marketable concept. They did all that without any really recognizable names attached to the project. Honestly, if actually making the game doesn't work out so well for those guys, they could still probably find a niche helping other companies with their Kickstarters

I'm guessing they're saving any screens of the game (if they think it's presentable) for the last push. So a week from now maybe?


Not talking about entitlement, just raising the point that creative freedom kind of is what many people have seen as the point of KS. Discussing the art itself is good (I think it's all right as I've said), as is expressing disappointment (I agree with a lot of the talk about no characters standing out now), but it's clear what the game is now. In fact, high fantasy has been confirmed since like day 0 or something. Still talking about Planescape seems moot.

Personally I'd be very surprised if there are any presentable screens from the game at this point, considering that they didn't even know what engine they were going to be using until very recently.

 

[Minsc]

Personally I'd be very surprised if there are any presentable screens from the game at this point, considering that they didn't even know what engine they were going to be using until very recently.

But the earlier quote from an interview last week, hopefully it wasn't a lie:

Brennecke told me he saw the first screenshot of the game the day we spoke. Even he was impressed. “It looks amazing.”

 

[foobarry81]

But this project is already funded. It has a ton of support. They're not really begging for people to be interested here. Once it has this level of support, I don't think it is ridiculous to expect them to show a little bit more and be more open to what we can expect from it right?

Maybe Obsidian have been focused mostly on developing the world and story until now? I dunno. Also I'm not really familiar with that Planetary Annihilation project.

Another thing maybe is that they are used to a 'certain degree of secrecy'. When working on bigger budget games like they've been doing in recent years, it's considered normal that they don't share a lot of media this early in the development process, so they might have adapted their work flow accordingly. Ofcourse a Kickstarter requires you to approach things differently, but if you're used to working in a certain way, it might be harder to adapt than when you're a relative newcomer. Or a smaller company.

 

[duckroll]

Honestly, if actually making the game doesn't work out so well for those guys, they could still probably find a niche helping other companies with their Kickstarters

LOL. That's pretty true. But if the game is anything like what they promised, and if the guys working on it haven't lost their touch since the TA days, I don't think they have to worry about their day jobs anytime soon.

 

[erragal]

But this project is already funded. It has a ton of support. They're not really begging for people to be interested here. Once it has this level of support, I don't think it is ridiculous to expect them to show a little bit more and be more open to what we can expect from it right?

I think the Planetary Annihilation Kickstarter was a great example of a much more professional and well organized/presented campaign compared to this one. I fucking love Obsidian, but it's clear that promoting and marketing something is not really their strong suite. Maybe that's also why they have an issue with publishers and pitches.

It's been obvious since the beginning that Obsidian lacks anyone at the top of their organization that has a sense for promotion and marketing; they're all purely game designers. Its a huge difference from hoe Fargo handled Wasteland 2; all those years of big publishing business experience come through.

All that said I feel part of some people's disappointment with this project is an age/generation gap issue. Every one of these guys grew up and bled traditional d&d/fantasy. All of these concepts feel straight out of an ad&d 2e book. From their perspective designing a brand new, original game system with modern conventions that still captures the spirit of that era of gaming is a huge
opportunity.

These games are always about the framework that's created to allow the player to craft their own nearly individualized story from all the varying paths and options available. For me the concept art says: you will have a grand fucking adventure.

I love the Planescape setting as much as anyone (playing a pnp blood war campaign will do that to you for life) but it's also not -their- property or necessarily the strength of the people involved. I'm still convinced the stories told will be original and involve plenty of the strange and occult; one just has to look at the quality of the self-contained vault vignettes and dlc for New Vegas to know how capable Obsidian is at exploring interesting new ideas in a 'tried and true' environment.

 

[dionysus]

Forgotten Realms by Obsidian is probably a business decision. I am sure these guys want PE to be a successful enough to fund sequels or other fully owned IPs. They look at the old crpg games and I look at what reached the biggest audience. It wasn't Arcanum or PST, not that Arcanum is even unique.

For a good writer, a familiar setting frees up valuable space for characterization and good story arcs. I know, PST did it all but PST is a masterpeice.

I get sick of high fantasy tropes myself in 3000 word trilogies, because even a mediocre author has space for unique world building, good characterization, etc. in that format. Even though games have a visual and interactive component that can add depth to the storytelling, a single game actually has a very limited amount of time for narrative development. Games are much better at atmosphere and setting than narrative.

When I think about games that have unique atmospheres and setting, most of the narrative content necessarily is taken up by explanation. Look at Bioshock. 9/10 of every story focused item in that game is used to explain the history of the place. Look at PST. The amazing thing about PST is that they made the characterization and the world building one in the same. Again, it is a masterpeice. Probably half the dialogue in PST is purely focused on describing the world.

Given realistic explanations of what PE can achieve, I like that they are focusing on characterization and tactical combat.

 

[Sharp]

But the earlier quote from an interview last week, hopefully it wasn't a lie:

Oh, really? I missed that. Sweet if true!

 

[RJT]

I found this XKCD comic to be relevant for discussion:

Spoiler

How awesome would cancer modifiers be?

 

[Lancehead]

What does bother me a bit is all this insistance on certain character systems. I really believe they know if the game they're aiming for fits the system they're creating better than Arcanum's, Lancehead

Well, sure, I'm not doubting that, but I was hoping that they go for a game that is compatible with Arcanum type of character progression.

Because all said and done, putting aside all the excitement of the project, I honestly feel they haven't shown much (edit: Souls concept has potential, though) that seems like it would push the RPG genre forward. They did that with Alpha Protocol, so I'm not being unreasonable by expecting or hoping they'd try to do the same with Eternity. Arcanum had brilliant system, so did System Shock 2, and this could've been a great opportunity for them to successfully apply that system to a party-based RPG.

But that's not Obsidian are aiming for, and I accept that, even if I whine every now and again.

 

[Violet_0]

what will I do if there's no halfling race?

 

[Sir Garbageman]

I like the new art and I'm totally ok with Obsidian's version of a D&D ruleset, pretty much exactly what I was hoping for tbh. It could use a little more exotic / unique flavor but so far so good imo.

 

[foobarry81]

Hurrah for godlike races and hardcore mode!
Now onto crafting/enchanting.

 

[dude]

I can't respond to the BG2 comment (except to say again to say if BG2's such a major approvement I'm regretting listening to people telling me to play through 1 first), but Sigil was both alien and living- it's not a case of one for the other, and it both it and its citizens would not have been as interesting and fascinating as they were without the city's otherwordliness and set-up- certainly not if they'd be from, say, Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter, where the most 'stereotypical' society would have robbed them of much of their colour.

Telling you to play through BG1 is a horrible advice. BG1 didn't age well at all - Not from a technical standpoint, but from a game design one. As you said, many parts of the game were left horribly undeveloped... But BG2 rectified that.

Sigil was living, but you were not part of it. Much of its inhabitants operated on logic there was at least partially alien to you and you never really felt like Sigil was somewhere you belonged - It was weird, beautiful and dangerous. The citizens fascinate you, mostly, through the superficial (which is not bad, it's actually very cool). But this is very different than Athkatla, there it fascinate yo on a deeper level because many of its inhabitants are interesting human beings.

And I agree that it's not a case of one or the other, but there is a trade-off here. You cannot create a world of utter weirdness and alien customs and explore it to the same depth you explore the mundane. And neither one is better than the other, it's just a matter of choice.

You're right about Nordom, but I think you keep mentioning him because it helps your point . Annah, Morte and Fall-From-Grace are much more familiar characters, and the setting doesn't stand in the way in these cases.

These character are better, they did a great job with them, but there are much less of these characters in PS:T that in BG2. Even Dak'kon, one of the more developed characters in PS:T, suffered a little from the strangeness in terms of depth.

You get to know them very well through dialogue. You can enter Torment having no idea what a githzerai and tanari'i are and end up having a very clear idea of what they're all about through your extensive dialogues with Dak'kon, Fall-from-Grace with her succubus upbringing, and so on.

I'm not sure how the setting is "too distracting" when the backstories of the characters play directly into the setting; it's all intertwined. Dak'kon tells you all about the Limbo plane he comes from (a story which ends up connecting directly to the Nameless One), Nordom with Mechanus, etc. Countless characters big and small relate to you their feelings about Sigil and their particular relationship to it. The whole planewalking element plays heavily into character relationships with the Nameless One so it isn't just window dressing. You end up finding out that you're responsible for a lot of the circumstances surrounding them.

You have to talk to these people to get to know them. The game doesn't just present you with some character you can instantly relate to and deduce from their appearance, dialogue style, etc. With Nordom, you should have quite a good idea of what he's about even before meeting him from having talked to other characters about the highly orderly and logical plane of Mechanus, and you also meet Modrons before ever encountering Nordom. Even if that wasn't the case, simply speaking to and questioning the guy will divulge ample information.

No, you learn about them right there, you don't know them, and some of them (like Nordom) are alien enough to warrant a very long introduction. You can't deeply explore something you just learned about.
And the fact they weaved these stories together doesn't help in term of depth I was talking about... No character in PS:T goes through the things the characters in BG2 are going through, they couldn't afford to deal with those in that type of game. The extent of the human relationships in a familiar setting is simply much greater - This should be fairly obvious. When you have overwhelming concepts, anything you add on top on them tends to become noise.

 

[Lancehead]

Torment is a bit different because it was done in one game, meaning everything needed to be introduced and explained and concluded in one game. With Eternity there are (planned) sequels. So Obsidian don't need to introduce everything and explain everything in Project Eternity. They can focus on a few concepts to explore.

 

[Mattdaddy]

Just when I think I've donated all I'm going to donate... they introduce a barbarian class and basically give my wallet a wedgie then take it's milk money. That's fighting dirty Obsidian.

 

[zkylon]

RPS sums my feelings on art, etc. pretty well in this article: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/10/04/kicking-it-old-school-the-peril-of-kickstarter-nostalgia/ (and it's in general pretty good)

 

[adixon]

I'm completely on the fence. On the one hand I have no real love of d&d and forgotten realms, on the other I want them to make whatever type of fantasy game they choose, and really loved the infinity engine games, setting and all.

It's really interesting, though, to see all these back and forth arguments on both sides of the issue, and to believe that the things people say at this early in a project's development might actually have some effect. The devs have specifically said they look at Neogaf and some other sites for feedback, by the way.

 

[Lancehead]

RPS sums my feelings on art, etc. pretty well in this article: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/10/04/kicking-it-old-school-the-peril-of-kickstarter-nostalgia/ (and it's in general pretty good)

I don't see kickstarter leading to "stagnation". These projects so far sound like strong starting points. If the projects succeed and still don't try to innovate with sequels then maybe we can start ringing that alarm bell.

 

[adixon]

Also, not every game needs to innovate -- game designers should make what they want to make, and the rest will follow naturally. And not all the big kickstarter projects are going for a focus on tradition. Schafer has already said that Double Fine will try to update the adventure genre in some ways, because making a completely old-style adventure game would feel off to him (can't remember hearing any specifics).

 

[wrowa]

RPS sums my feelings on art, etc. pretty well in this article: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/10/04/kicking-it-old-school-the-peril-of-kickstarter-nostalgia/ (and it's in general pretty good)

I don't agree with the very premise of the article:

"Kickstarter success stories have so far been firmly rooted in nostalgia, not innnovation. We’re seeing some of the biggest talent in the industry openly abandoning the ambition of innovation, and we’re paying them to do it."

Nostalgia and innovation are no contradiction. As an example: Modern RPGs follow an entirely different path than old-school RPGs and there's still very much room for innovation in the old formula. A game can use old-school mechanics as its base and still use innovative ideas to move this sub-genre to a new level.

Especially in the case of RPGs, saying that these new games "abandon innovation" implies that the modern watered-down RPG experience that try to reach as many millions of people as possible are somehow superior to RPGs that don't abandon the genre in favor of being a TPS.

And I think this is true for most of the "Nostalgia" kickstarters. People didn't fund Broken Sword 5 or Double Fine Adventure because they hate innovation, but because there aren't all that many point & click adventures still being made. Does innovation mean that we have to abandon certain (sub-)genres? I disagree with that.

 

[Zeliard]

No, you learn about them right there, you don't know them, and some of them (like Nordom) are alien enough to warrant a very long introduction. You can't deeply explore something you just learned about.

This is one of the most nonsensical things I've read. Some of the best sci-fi and fantasy writing puts you in completely alien worlds and has you ultimately empathize with characters who are far divorced from you in anything from physiology to culture. It's hardly a barrier. It ultimately makes it more rewarding when you don't immediately relate to a character and instead get to know them (and know about them) through the course of a story.

 

[xenist]

RPS sums my feelings on art, etc. pretty well in this article: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/10/04/kicking-it-old-school-the-peril-of-kickstarter-nostalgia/ (and it's in general pretty good)

I'm of the feeling that creative types should be driven by what they want to do. Innovation isn't in itself a positive unless it's applied to a stagnant situation. Someone starting an FPS on Kickstarter and wanting to make it like COD would be cause for an article like this. The type of game these guys want to make is quite far from a point where it needs innovation. They seem to feel that more can be done with this more "traditional" format. And I agree.

 

[WorstUsernameEver]

I don't think this project is even driven by nostalgia as much by the desire to keep evolving a genre that pretty much stopped being developed because of circumstances, not because of bad sales or reception (quite the contrary).

I also think at least a few of the games cited in Walker's article are potentially interesting in terms of gameplay/art "innovations" (loaded word anyway, because new doesn't necessarily mean better), such as The Banner Saga or Planetary Annihilation (the little I know about the second, anyway, I didn't really follow the KS all that much).

I don't see much of a problem with nostalgia anyway, because what I personally advocate is for the market to be more and more diversified and cater to niches too and not only to the mainstream, not necessarily for gaming to be revolutionized and suddenly be something else entirely (though I certainly appreciate those people that try to push the boundaries).

 

[Sentenza]

RPS sums my feelings on art, etc. pretty well in this article: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/10/04/kicking-it-old-school-the-peril-of-kickstarter-nostalgia/ (and it's in general pretty good)

I never trust John Walker when it comes to RPG. Never.
And yeah, like others have pointed, he has a pretty narrow idea of what innovation actually means, apparently.

That said, he's right when he claims that the Tom Hall/breanda Brathwaite kickstarter sounds almost parodistic.
They didn't say *nothing* about what kind of RPG they are exactly producing, just claimed "it's very very old school", which if not backed by some detail proving the point doesn't really mean anything.

 

[zkylon]

That said, he's right when he claims that the Tom Hall/breanda Brathwaite kickstarter sounds almost parodistic.
They didn't say *nothing* about what kind of RPG they are exactly producing, just claimed "it's very very old school", which if not backed by some detail proving the point doesn't really mean anything.

I get such a sensation of "there's a bunch of nostalgic RPG dudes with money to milk" from their Kickstarter, it's just bad taste.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

It's innovative even if its been done before, if you compare it to the RPGs of today.

 

[Kayhan]

RPS sums my feelings on art, etc. pretty well in this article: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/10/04/kicking-it-old-school-the-peril-of-kickstarter-nostalgia/ (and it's in general pretty good)

So what do they say?

Oh, I have to press the link and read for myself....hard work!

 

[Zeliard]

Yeah I'm not too fond of that Hall/Brathwaite project so far either. Even by the standards of Kickstarters, that thing is ultra-vague. Repeating "old-school RPG" ad nauseum doesn't necessarily tickle the mind; even the project is tentatively titled "Old-School RPG." I like both Hall and Brathwaite and I'm sure they can make a fine game, but it ends up feeling a bit patronizing.