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PnP RPGs OT || Come play the REAL RPGs

Mike M

Nick N
Want the upcoming 5e D&D DMG for about $22?

Add it to your cart, and during checkout enter HOLIDAY30 for 30% off bringing the price down to around $20 + tax!

Works on *ANY* book actually (but only once per account) :) But I think a lot of us already own the PHB and MM. If not? Why not get yourself a cheap 5e PHB?

(also suggested: GRRM's A World of Ice & Fire :p)

Done and done.
 

Mike M

Nick N
Got the 5th edition DMG yesterday, so it gets added to the first set of role playing books I've owned in aaaaaages, and the first D&D books I've ever had.

I haven't read it all in exhaustive detail, but it looks like ability score-boosting gear has been revamped significantly? They just bump your score to a pre-determined level, regardless of your starting score. Also, no price listing outside what each rarity level of wondrous items fetches.

Guess it's to balance out the "Take a Feat or Ability Score Increase" leveling scheme? Or it may have always been like that, I only know the prices from 3.5 and Pathfinder because of OGL sites.
 

Nairume

Banned
Got the 5th edition DMG yesterday, so it gets added to the first set of role playing books I've owned in aaaaaages, and the first D&D books I've ever had.

I haven't read it all in exhaustive detail, but it looks like ability score-boosting gear has been revamped significantly? They just bump your score to a pre-determined level, regardless of your starting score. Also, no price listing outside what each rarity level of wondrous items fetches.

Guess it's to balance out the "Take a Feat or Ability Score Increase" leveling scheme? Or it may have always been like that, I only know the prices from 3.5 and Pathfinder because of OGL sites.
5E's big thing is trying to keep the numbers game down, so yeah, very few magic items will give ability score bonuses that will actively go against the lower limit on ability scores and stuff.

I guess the price listing thing is also because they are downplaying players buying items. Since magic items (or feats) aren't being used to fix the math this time around, it's less important that players have a constant flow of magic items to make them more powerful.
 

Xeinok

Neo Member
Had a co-worker come in with his DMG and realized I had totally forgot it was coming out in December. Ordered it right away so I can read it over the holidays, heh. I don't know why I so enjoy reading all D&D books cover to cover.
 

Mike M

Nick N
Had a co-worker come in with his DMG and realized I had totally forgot it was coming out in December. Ordered it right away so I can read it over the holidays, heh. I don't know why I so enjoy reading all D&D books cover to cover.
I'm modestly (EVER so modestly) disappointed with it. It spends way too much time on storytelling technique for my tastes, but once you get past all that it has some good stuff that I would find useful.

I guess some people need instruction with storytelling, though? I just consider it a strong suit of mine.
 

Nairume

Banned
It's weird. Back in 2008, I really appreciated that the 4th Edition DMG was almost entirely crunchy mechanics for DMs to sort through, because I was in the same boat where I was really confident on the world building/fluff side.

But now I think I appreciate the attention the new DMG gives to it, because there's a lot of neat theory that has gotten me to reconsider approaches to world building. As somebody who's been GMing for a while now, I think it's useful enough for myself to where I think it's definitely going to be a fantastic aid for somebody new to it.
 

flyover

Member
Had a co-worker come in with his DMG and realized I had totally forgot it was coming out in December. Ordered it right away so I can read it over the holidays, heh. I don't know why I so enjoy reading all D&D books cover to cover.
I've done the same since I was a kid, with almost every edition. Rule books, modules, clone systems. By comparison, I haven't spent nearly as much time playing it.
 
Getting ready to run my players through I6 - the original Ravenloft adventure (adapted to 5th edition). None of them have ever actually played through the adventure, so It'll be fun. i did my own adaption, and I found one someone else did for a comparison (they were pretty similar in the end, but I did get a couple good ideas for adapting some of the encounters).

I also adapted the treasure in the adventure to something more reasonable for 5th edition.

I've drawn all the maps in roll20 (I couldn't find any premade maps that port easily into roll20). i just need to add my monster tokens, and some window dressing like tables, beds, statues, ect
 
Getting ready to run my players through I6 - the original Ravenloft adventure (adapted to 5th edition). None of them have ever actually played through the adventure, so It'll be fun. i did my own adaption, and I found one someone else did for a comparison (they were pretty similar in the end, but I did get a couple good ideas for adapting some of the encounters).

I also adapted the treasure in the adventure to something more reasonable for 5th edition.

I've drawn all the maps in roll20 (I couldn't find any premade maps that port easily into roll20). i just need to add my monster tokens, and some window dressing like tables, beds, statues, ect

To this day, my favorite DnD experience. That module if run right is a revelation.
 
I've always loved the SR universe more than the mechanics. But MAN do I love it.

Out of any table top game I've ever played, there is so much to buy and spend your money on. It's gun, cybernetic and shop porn. So many things to choose from. Have you played or tried to makes a 5th edition character? Feels different in some way. Plus, Chummer sucks since it is missing a book right now...
 

Leunam

Member
Anyone got some recommendations for music?

We just started a Pathfinder campaign and I wanted something that I could play in the background. I intended on using Game of Thrones and Lord of the Rings soundtracks along with Dark Souls music for encounters. I know there are a ton of ideas I'm completely overlooking.
 
Out of any table top game I've ever played, there is so much to buy and spend your money on. It's gun, cybernetic and shop porn. So many things to choose from. Have you played or tried to makes a 5th edition character? Feels different in some way. Plus, Chummer sucks since it is missing a book right now...

If you hunt around, there are updates for Chummer that bring it up to date with Run Faster and Shadow Spells. They are pretty regularly posted on /tg/.

We just started a 5e Shadowrun game over the weekend as well. As the decker, I'm a little frustrated because in usual fashion when decking stuff comes up, the group just wants to handwave and move on. I can understand why; it's probably not all that exciting for the group to sit around while I'm rolling matrix actions and picking my way carefully through a system. OTOH, it sucks to invest resources (stats, skill points, karma and nuyen) into something so necessary, only to not be allowed to "have my moment" as it were.
 

dude

dude
Anyone got some recommendations for music?

We just started a Pathfinder campaign and I wanted something that I could play in the background. I intended on using Game of Thrones and Lord of the Rings soundtracks along with Dark Souls music for encounters. I know there are a ton of ideas I'm completely overlooking.

Soundtracks are usually good. I like to link themes to certain types of music. Big kingdom-related music has LoTR OST playing while another culture would get Tuvan and Mongolian music. Make playlists for different uses.
 

Rootbeer

Banned
I need to get FFG's Star Wars RPG a chance. As soon as the Force & Destiny book is for order, I'm getting one. The wonky dice system has me intrigued.
 
I need to get FFG's Star Wars RPG a chance. As soon as the Force & Destiny book is for order, I'm getting one. The wonky dice system has me intrigued.

Pretty sure the beginner box is available for pre-order?

I've been looking at Edge of the Empire, but my group decided to go Shadowrun instead. I definitely think it's a major switch from the crunchy 4e game we were running, in that almost every single interaction is way more interpretive than it is procedural. I do like the more collaborative nature of the game though, since I feel like it relieves some of the "GM vs Players" mentality that can pop up in more rules heavy games. I'm still excited to give it a shot eventually though!
 
If you hunt around, there are updates for Chummer that bring it up to date with Run Faster and Shadow Spells. They are pretty regularly posted on /tg/.

We just started a 5e Shadowrun game over the weekend as well. As the decker, I'm a little frustrated because in usual fashion when decking stuff comes up, the group just wants to handwave and move on. I can understand why; it's probably not all that exciting for the group to sit around while I'm rolling matrix actions and picking my way carefully through a system. OTOH, it sucks to invest resources (stats, skill points, karma and nuyen) into something so necessary, only to not be allowed to "have my moment" as it were.

/tg/? Can you link me these updates if you can? That'd be awesome.
 
It all works (the download at least). You are awesome man.

Had to type the last one from my phone. Just unzip that file to Chummer\Data, then in Chummer go to Tools -> Options and check the boxes for Run Faster and Shadow Spells. I don't think the new metatypes are 100% functional, but the qualities and gear and stuff should be good to go.
 
Had to type the last one from my phone. Just unzip that file to Chummer\Data, then in Chummer go to Tools -> Options and check the boxes for Run Faster and Shadow Spells. I don't think the new metatypes are 100% functional, but the qualities and gear and stuff should be good to go.

Awesome. Fucking don't understand how they didn't put Erased into the base SR5 book.
 
Anyone else in love with the core simplicity of DnD 5th Ed? I have yet to play but reading through and listening to some podcasts on it have me hooked. This is DnD again!
 
Anyone else in love with the core simplicity of DnD 5th Ed? I have yet to play but reading through and listening to some podcasts on it have me hooked. This is DnD again!

It's a good system but some things irk me.

-I don't like what they did with feats. The drastic reduction in their availability makes customization way more limited

-They made it impossible to make either a really useless character or a really powerful character.

-They made it difficult to create offbeat characters that specialize in things that the game's designers didn't think of

-Magic items seem way, way rarer, further limiting customization

I don't think I would ever run a 5E game without heavily incorporating elements of previous systems. But since that would inherently screw up the system's balance, I'm probably never going to run a 5e game.
 

embalm

Member
It's a good system but some things irk me.

-I don't like what they did with feats. The drastic reduction in their availability makes customization way more limited

-They made it impossible to make either a really useless character or a really powerful character.

-They made it difficult to create offbeat characters that specialize in things that the game's designers didn't think of

-Magic items seem way, way rarer, further limiting customization

I don't think I would ever run a 5E game without heavily incorporating elements of previous systems. But since that would inherently screw up the system's balance, I'm probably never going to run a 5e game.
We've been running games pretty regularly and I don't think any of these are true.

Feats are fewer, but do a lot more. You don't need 3 or 4 to complete a concept you only need one. They offer huge amounts of flavor and a single feat usually offers 2 new combat actions of some type. Almost all of the players in my group have taken a feat to help customize their character. Here are some examples:
  • Sul the Druid of Malar - Grappler Feat - I thought this was silly until he transformed into a bear grappled an enemy and described how he ate his heart in tribute of Malar and the hunt
  • Jess the Paladin of Vengence - Polearm Master - Somewhat claustrophobic she fights with a pole arm to give herself breathing room
  • Bryn the Dragonborn Sorcerer - Elementalist - This feat isn't great, but Bryn is an actual dragon who lost her memories and was trapped in her current form. The bonus fire damage is her gold dragon essence overwhelming her current body.

On useless characters. If you use stat array characters will be more balanced. In general this is a good thing and gives each player a chance to shine in the right circumstances. Yet if you roll for stats, there can be a large power gap. More examples from a few sessions.
In a one shot we had a Bard with 7 constitution. He died when the wind blew his way too hard. He used the spell Vicious Mockery to cause disadvantage on enemy attacks literally using his wit to distract enemies from hitting him.
The Dwarven Rock, was a dwarf fighter who took the Heavy Armor Master Feat and rolled an incredible CON, then he got his hands on some platemail. At 20 AC, boat loads of HP, Second Wind, and the feat he was practically invincible.

Specializing in off beat things... This one is totally wrong. Feats, Skills, and Backgrounds have NO restrictions now. You can have a Druid with a Criminal Background that knows how to pick locks and stealth. You can have a Barbarian who is a Noble and learned in the ways of Persuasion and courtly dances. Any class can pick up a feat that will allow them to cast any spells of their choosing, with it you can have a pure fighter who knows a few tricky spells.
If you give me ANY offbeat archetype or concept, I guarantee it can be covered without house rules. The backgrounds alone give you way more options than previous editions.

Magic items aren't rare. This is completely up to the group/DM. They are not required, the game was designed so that magic items aren't completely needed so that you can run low magic campaigns. My group is level 6 and they are rocking the usual badass items. Here are a few from the group of 4: Necklace of fireballs(3 remaining), Staff of defense, Sapphire Splint Mail +1, Green Dragon Leather +1, Dagger of Venom, Ring of Water Walk, Ring of the Pheonix, Gauntlets of Ogre Strength, Wand of Magic Missile, Boots of Striding and Sprinting, Bowsword(turns from shortbow to shortsword on command), and lots of potions and scrolls of various types.
Magic items are different. They don't go above +3, but they do have tons of new effects and fun things that can happen in the DMG. I will trade flat bonus for crazy fun stuff any day.

On your last point, the DMG is full of customization options. Some allow the game to be played more like previous versions. All without messing up the games balance.


On top of that it has the basics that make it a good game.
  • Easy to prepare a session as a DM.
  • Loads of options for players to create fun characters
  • Advantage system is awesome
  • The books are absolutely steller
 
Eh. It just feels like they drastically narrowed the standard deviation in the average power level of a character.

I'm not convinced about the feat system at all. I would much rather have more feats that do smaller things than less feats that give you a big chunk of things. And I REALLY hate that it makes you choose between a feat and an ability score bonus. I feel like I'm getting cheated either way. And the +1 consolation prize should come with every feat, not only a handful of them.

When I say customization, I mean that I want to be able to do off the wall things that most characters can't do. I want to raise an army of undead. I want to command a legion of followers. I want to play as a quadriplegic who is a master telekineticist. I want to play as a self-aware piece of jewelry that can't move, but possesses anyone who puts it on.

Being a druid who can pick locks is child's play in comparison.

KM might be right that subsequent books will help this problem, but I'm concerned that the tone being set by this first few books will be the norm, and further expansions will be way too structured for my tastes.

Edit: and you should never ever roll your stats. Horrible idea that can't lead to anything good.
 

Nairume

Banned
Edit: and you should never ever roll your stats. Horrible idea that can't lead to anything good.
I strongly disagree with this because we once had a Gamma World character who rolled stats in a way where he was a quadriplegic pyrokinetic and mind controlling mentalist who mind controlled a handyman to drive him around in a pickup truck while he was mounted to a throne in the bed of the truck and chucked mind fireballs at enemies.

When I say customization, I mean that I want to be able to do off the wall things that most characters can't do. I want to raise an army of undead. I want to command a legion of followers. I want to play as a quadriplegic who is a master telekineticist. I want to play as a self-aware piece of jewelry that can't move, but possesses anyone who puts it on.
In fairness, that's something that 5E lets you do really easily.

And the legion of followers thing isn't disallowed by the rules, since that's just obviously left up to roleplaying.
 

embalm

Member
Eh. It just feels like they drastically narrowed the standard deviation in the average power level of a character.
If you mean the power of Wizards compared to warriors at high levels then yeah they have narrowed the gap. Warriors get to do all kinds of nifty stuff and high level ma

I'm not convinced about the feat system at all. I would much rather have more feats that do smaller things than less feats that give you a big chunk of things. And I REALLY hate that it makes you choose between a feat and an ability score bonus. I feel like I'm getting cheated either way. And the +1 consolation prize should come with every feat, not only a handful of them.
I hated it at first, but only needing a single feat really takes the bite out of choosing one over stats. Feats are straight up powerful and offer more roleplaying and combat options.
Like I said before after playing for a few months, everyone at my table has selected a feat to further flesh out their character and we usually come up with in-game reasons for learning the new skills.

When I say customization, I mean that I want to be able to do off the wall things that most characters can't do. I want to raise an army of undead. I want to command a legion of followers. I want to play as a quadriplegic who is a master telekineticist. I want to play as a self-aware piece of jewelry that can't move, but possesses anyone who puts it on.

Being a druid who can pick locks is child's play in comparison.
Maybe you haven't read any of the core books. Raising an army of the dead is what Necromancer wizards are built to do and anyone with access to arcane casting can do it as well, it's in the Players handbook.
Commanding legions, building fortresses, rampaging through towns, high speed chases, and dozens of other scenarios are outlined very well in the DMG. Tips on running those are probably the best I've read in any DMG.
Your quadriplegic & jewelry characters are easily covered also. The DMG has guidelines and tips on creating new races/sub-races if you think that would fit. You can also create your own background. I don't know of any book that has those 2 situations in print, but they are very easily adapted to just about any game including 5e. I like the idea of the jewlery and would have you establish CHA, WIS, and INT, but use the STR, DEX, and CON of your host.


KM might be right that subsequent books will help this problem, but I'm concerned that the tone being set by this first few books will be the norm, and further expansions will be way too structured for my tastes.

Edit: and you should never ever roll your stats. Horrible idea that can't lead to anything good.
5e is really nothing but options. I don't know why you think it's so structured. I'm not sure what game you're playing instead of 5e, but few lend themselves to house rules and optional rules as well. 5e is all about choosing the options that fit your table, that's why we picked it over what's out there. We usually house rule stuff and 5e has offered up good alternatives that we like. Even some of the basic rules have options like stat gen and resting.

Stat Generation: Roll em old school(3d6 in order), Roll em new school(4d6 assigned), point buy, and simple array.

Rest Options:
Default 1 hour short, 8 hour long.
Heroic 5 minute short, 1 hour long.
Realistic 8 hour short, 7 day long.
There are also options for how much healing/spell recovery you get with each rest.

Spell slot alternatives like spell points, like mana.


Everyone is going to have their favorite games, but 5e really hits all the right notes for me. I don't know what left a sour taste in your mouth with 5e, but all of your complaints are pretty much taken care of in the core rule books. You should sit down with the 5e DMG and give it a read. It's packed with good stuff for any game.
 
That's fair - I haven't really looked at the DMG yet. Maybe I'll give it another chance and keep an open mind. Thank you for informing me.
 

Mike M

Nick N
Has my IRL group get together this past weekend after an extended hiatus for the end of the year. I've really solidified my opinion that playing an evil character is orders of magnitude more fun than going all heroic : D
 
If you mean the power of Wizards compared to warriors at high levels then yeah they have narrowed the gap. Warriors get to do all kinds of nifty stuff and high level ma.

high level ma? magic or maneuvers?

Anyway sounds good. The huge gap at high levels annoyed me.
 
Feats are fewer, but do a lot more. You don't need 3 or 4 to complete a concept you only need one.
Yeah, a lot of 3.x feats are "this is something you can do, and then this upgrade on the feat tree is a better version of that" or "you need this very marginally useful feat in order to qualify for other feats." Kind of like filler ingredients to form the meat of what you envision to be a delicious taco.
 

Thanks for posting all this info. I know I wasn't part of the conversation, but it was an interesting read. I'm interested in how 5th ex turned out, but I don't have the $60+ necessary to get the PHB and DMG at the moment. You've convinced me to give it a shot when the opportunity arises.
 

embalm

Member
high level ma? magic or maneuvers?

Anyway sounds good. The huge gap at high levels annoyed me.
I honestly don't know what I was going to finish that with. The main things are spell casting changes that include few spell slots per day above 6th level, spells not going up in power with your level but requiring you to use a higher slot to cast them if you want more power out of it, and the concentration mechanic which limits ongoing spells.

Warrior classes having class abilities that make them more fighting focused and just as capable goes a long way in also helping. Fighter maneuvers and action surge, Paladin Smiting, Ranger bonus damage and class spells, and so on. The melee classes are a lot less stand and roll your attacks and have a lot of decisions to make about what to do each turn. Still not as many options as a loaded out Wizard, but far more than before.

@WhirlwindMonk
Glad to help. 5e has free rules you can download from wizard's website. It's 4 classes, all the basic rules and the bare bone DMG and MM. You don't get to see all that optional stuff I went on about, but it's free and you can get a game started with it.
 
@WhirlwindMonk
Glad to help. 5e has free rules you can download from wizard's website. It's 4 classes, all the basic rules and the bare bone DMG and MM. You don't get to see all that optional stuff I went on about, but it's free and you can get a game started with it.

Very cool, I'll have to check that out. Thanks again!
 

MikeDip

God bless all my old friends/And god bless me too, why pretend?
Are there any good rpgs with angels? I tried researching but not finding much. (An old game called In Nomine apparently has angels though, anyone here play it?)
 

dude

dude
Are there any good rpgs with angels? I tried researching but not finding much. (An old game called In Nomine apparently has angels though, anyone here play it?)

I've heard some pretty good things on In Nomine, but I never played it.

Nobilis has a pretty cool version of angels, though you can't exactly play them.
Demon: The Fallen (old WOD) lets you play fallen angels.
 

MikeDip

God bless all my old friends/And god bless me too, why pretend?
I've heard some pretty good things on In Nomine, but I never played it.

Nobilis has a pretty cool version of angels, though you can't exactly play them.
Demon: The Fallen (old WOD) lets you play fallen angels.

At this point, I don't even want to actually play. I don't have anyone to even play with. I just want a really nice book detailing how angels would work in these games. Book full of stats and items and lore and angel types, etc.

I might pick up the In Nomine angel guidebook if I can find a copy. Hoping to find others though.
 
Looks like a game store opened up less than 2 miles from my house.

And they are running DnD Encounters, as well as a weekly 5E campaign - looking for a couple more new players. In talking with the store owner he's saying that they are story orientated and not just munchkin optimizers so I think it could be good. I'm glad that the focus of the new edition isn't about min/maxing.
 
Looks like a game store opened up less than 2 miles from my house.

And they are running DnD Encounters, as well as a weekly 5E campaign - looking for a couple more new players. In talking with the store owner he's saying that they are story orientated and not just munchkin optimizers so I think it could be good. I'm glad that the focus of the new edition isn't about min/maxing.

Lol. Still playing the game of willful ignorance where you pretend that min-maxing is somehow incompatible with story oriented play?
 

Jackben

bitch I'm taking calls.
03nb0bL.gif
 
It's difficult to do right (especially once you are past chargen and are actually playing), though, yeah, not impossible.

A lot of chargen is min maxing. Min maxing can be anything from picking spells that will contribute to the group, or putting your 18 in strength rather than intelligence as a fighter. Can you role play a smart but weak fighter? Sure. But unless the GM knows this and plans for it you won't do too well as a fighter in DND with 18 int and 10 str. And what if I want to role play someone who is competent at fighting? Suddenly I am a disgusting min maxer for putting my 18 into str and 10 into int because that happens to mesh best with the game mechanics?

Side note: Arguably, putting 18 into int if I want to play a smart but weak fighter would be min maxing since I am optimizing my stats for my stated goal.
 

embalm

Member
Most of my group min/maxes. I also have a player who will nerf his character if he builds it too well. I also have a stoner who is there to roll big dice and get completely lost in his own imagination.

Selfish min/maxers are the problem. They are the ones who give anyone else that wants to have an optimized character a bad name. A polearm paladin who max smites every round is the bad min/maxer. A polearm paladin that drops a lay on hands on the cleric so he can survive the round and get off a group heal is a boon to group and game.

It's ok to assume when people are talking about min/maxing in public play that it's the bad version, because it's their only standout feature.
 

Nairume

Banned
A lot of chargen is min maxing. Min maxing can be anything from picking spells that will contribute to the group, or putting your 18 in strength rather than intelligence as a fighter. Can you role play a smart but weak fighter? Sure. But unless the GM knows this and plans for it you won't do too well as a fighter in DND with 18 int and 10 str. And what if I want to role play someone who is competent at fighting? Suddenly I am a disgusting min maxer for putting my 18 into str and 10 into int because that happens to mesh best with the game mechanics?

Side note: Arguably, putting 18 into int if I want to play a smart but weak fighter would be min maxing since I am optimizing my stats for my stated goal.
I guess the thing here is that the line between optimizing (as a positive thing) and min-maxing (as a negative thing) is kind of blurred, but I think we can sort it out relatively easily. As an example, I've got two characters playing fighters in the game I am running right now.

Fighter A is going for a non-standard character concept for his class, though he is still optimized by way of having his higher stats being ones that benefit the character the most (namely a high dex) and feats that best complement the character concept. That said, even if most of his character choices line up with his character being optimized, not every decision is made around what gets the biggest bang for the buck. Instead, he seems content to made decisions based around what organically makes sense for his character. I don't consider his optimizations min-maxing.

Fighter B, on the other hand, was (initially) made with a larger focus on getting his overall damage and defensive output as high as they could possibly go, with his character as a narrative entity coming second to his character as a sheet of statistics. He's actually abandoned both mechanical and narrative aspects to his character simply because he ran the math and something else turned out to either do more damage or allowed him to soak more. Though he has since made an effort to try and justify things in game, I think what he has done with his character *is* min-maxing.

Even if both characters are trying to be good at what they do, there's a clear difference between how one player is handling his character versus the other. So, no, I don't think you are a "digusting min-maxer" for giving a fighter an 18 strength. I also don't think min-maxing is necessarily bad (Fighter B's in game narrative has allowed for some neat story beats to flower), but I also am completely sympathetic to GMs and players who don't want it at the table.


tl;dr I think there's a difference between "I'm a fighter with 18 strength" and "I'm a half-dragon/half-centaur fighter with 18 strength, a level in paladin so I get smite, a couple levels in rogue so I get sneak attack, my character does all these dice when he makes his attack don't worry I'll think of something to justify this all in story later"
 
It's ok to assume when people are talking about min/maxing in public play that it's the bad version, because it's their only standout feature.

I'm not so sure about that though. I've met people who find any sort of character optimization to be completely anathema to story driven play, even if it isn't selfishly done. Or done in order to help realize a character concept that would otherwise need significant GM intervention and tweaking to make useful.
 

Nairume

Banned
I'm not so sure about that though. I've met people who find any sort of character optimization to be completely anathema to story driven play, even if it isn't selfishly done. Or done in order to help realize a character concept that would otherwise need significant GM intervention and tweaking to make useful.
Not wanting *any* optimization is definitely going too far, but it ultimately does boil down to what works for the group as a whole.

A good median is to just let players play the characters they want to play, as long as they are willing to make an effort make it work within the shared narrative while also not overshadowing everybody else.
 
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