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Point n Click Adventure GAF 2013 The pixel hunt continues.
- Thread starter Family Fry
- Start date
Messofanego
Banned
Tim Schafer and the gang ran a presentation that is worth a watch if you want to know how developers design puzzles and the world in an adventure game.
Broken Age: Rethinking a Classic Genre for the Modern Era
Oh, and they've played Kentucky Route Zero (16:13), which warms my heart because it's my favourite adventure game this year. You can tell they took inspiration for their dynamic camera and going into the background (18:18) from KRZ, because that game is crazy with the transitions!
"Good Puzzle" Theory (07:36):
It's great to hear that they're striving for a "good stuck" rather than the Uncharted example he mentions where you're just told what to do after some time.
Broken Age: Rethinking a Classic Genre for the Modern Era
Oh, and they've played Kentucky Route Zero (16:13), which warms my heart because it's my favourite adventure game this year. You can tell they took inspiration for their dynamic camera and going into the background (18:18) from KRZ, because that game is crazy with the transitions!
"Good Puzzle" Theory (07:36):
It's great to hear that they're striving for a "good stuck" rather than the Uncharted example he mentions where you're just told what to do after some time.
Incoming ramble:
One of the things that's bothered me for a while is how *bad* many game designers of mainstream games are at making puzzles. It's like... they've looked at them, they know what a puzzle *should* look like, but they don't learn much about the tricks and methodology to make one good. A big crime is including elements that only make sense when solved; you need a block to get up a wall, you can't see one in the area, so you explore the only section you have available - because it's the only section you have available - and then discover one.
That is, you're proceeding down a path not because you've deduced it's where you need to go to solve the puzzle, you're doing it because that's the only path available to you, and through understanding of games you can reason that it'll send you to the right location in due course.
That said - and I'll elaborate on this in the examples coming up, and some people might find this controversial: searching isn't much fun.
Let me explain a bit further: I'm not meaning to imply that everything should necessarily be in clear view. Allow me to present what I mean by talking about another puzzle: extremely traditional text-adventure mazes, as in Zork or Colossal Cave. To present the basic puzzle: You end up in a series of locations that look identical, and don't have standard topology (going north then south won't necessarily put you back where you started). It's easy to get lost. Zork has two mazes; the Maze of Twisty Little Passages, All Alike, and The Maze of Twisty Little Passages, All Different. They are two classic puzzles, but crucially, both hinge on the same basic notion: To map a maze, you need to find a way to distinguish between locations. In the case of All Different, there's subtle differences in the names of the locations (One might be "Twisty Little", the next might be "Twisting Little", the one after that "Little Twisty..."). For All Alike, the traditional solution is for the player to *make* differences between locations by leaving objects there.
Two standard mazes, both of which hinge on the same notion, but with two different solutions, that's fair enough. I've seen mazes where the distinction requires a bit of searching (one I recall was a maze of gardens, where the flowers were different colours in different locations). The thing is, many text adventure fans strongly dislike mazes. Why? Because, all-too-often, the maze is the standard 'drop objects to map it', with no interesting nuance or subtlety.
All-too-often, then, people have designed text adventures using this puzzle directly because they've seen it and know it works, without realising that any well-read gamer will have encountered the problem before. For those gamers, it's a dull bit of busywork with no actual interest. The designer has seen a maze, and without understanding why it was originally interesting, ripped it out and placed it directly in their product - but without any distinguishing features, it's just more tedium.
Back to searching, 'cause here's the thing: Like mazes, it's a solved problem. Any intelligent gamer *knows* how to methodically and painstakingly search for things. It's interesting the first few times, perhaps... but too often, it's expected that that's the only realistic way to guarantee finding something important. It's *so* much more interesting, if you must have a player hunt for something hidden, to give them a fairly explicit clue to the location and have them figure it out.
(As a small further aside, that's largely why I don't care *too* much about "FPSes are all corridors now!". There's rarely any interesting problems in navigating Doom-style expansive complexes. Unless you're going to add in some, why not simplify the experience?)
There is *one* puzzle in a recent (ish) action game that did rather impress me. Spoilers (although I'm somewhat vague) for "World's Greatest Detective" in Batman: Arkham Asylum incoming:
And, as a segue, a point about a secret in Arkham Origins, also spoilery:
One of the things that's bothered me for a while is how *bad* many game designers of mainstream games are at making puzzles. It's like... they've looked at them, they know what a puzzle *should* look like, but they don't learn much about the tricks and methodology to make one good. A big crime is including elements that only make sense when solved; you need a block to get up a wall, you can't see one in the area, so you explore the only section you have available - because it's the only section you have available - and then discover one.
That is, you're proceeding down a path not because you've deduced it's where you need to go to solve the puzzle, you're doing it because that's the only path available to you, and through understanding of games you can reason that it'll send you to the right location in due course.
That said - and I'll elaborate on this in the examples coming up, and some people might find this controversial: searching isn't much fun.
Let me explain a bit further: I'm not meaning to imply that everything should necessarily be in clear view. Allow me to present what I mean by talking about another puzzle: extremely traditional text-adventure mazes, as in Zork or Colossal Cave. To present the basic puzzle: You end up in a series of locations that look identical, and don't have standard topology (going north then south won't necessarily put you back where you started). It's easy to get lost. Zork has two mazes; the Maze of Twisty Little Passages, All Alike, and The Maze of Twisty Little Passages, All Different. They are two classic puzzles, but crucially, both hinge on the same basic notion: To map a maze, you need to find a way to distinguish between locations. In the case of All Different, there's subtle differences in the names of the locations (One might be "Twisty Little", the next might be "Twisting Little", the one after that "Little Twisty..."). For All Alike, the traditional solution is for the player to *make* differences between locations by leaving objects there.
Two standard mazes, both of which hinge on the same notion, but with two different solutions, that's fair enough. I've seen mazes where the distinction requires a bit of searching (one I recall was a maze of gardens, where the flowers were different colours in different locations). The thing is, many text adventure fans strongly dislike mazes. Why? Because, all-too-often, the maze is the standard 'drop objects to map it', with no interesting nuance or subtlety.
All-too-often, then, people have designed text adventures using this puzzle directly because they've seen it and know it works, without realising that any well-read gamer will have encountered the problem before. For those gamers, it's a dull bit of busywork with no actual interest. The designer has seen a maze, and without understanding why it was originally interesting, ripped it out and placed it directly in their product - but without any distinguishing features, it's just more tedium.
Back to searching, 'cause here's the thing: Like mazes, it's a solved problem. Any intelligent gamer *knows* how to methodically and painstakingly search for things. It's interesting the first few times, perhaps... but too often, it's expected that that's the only realistic way to guarantee finding something important. It's *so* much more interesting, if you must have a player hunt for something hidden, to give them a fairly explicit clue to the location and have them figure it out.
(As a small further aside, that's largely why I don't care *too* much about "FPSes are all corridors now!". There's rarely any interesting problems in navigating Doom-style expansive complexes. Unless you're going to add in some, why not simplify the experience?)
There is *one* puzzle in a recent (ish) action game that did rather impress me. Spoilers (although I'm somewhat vague) for "World's Greatest Detective" in Batman: Arkham Asylum incoming:
On the surface it's a simple collectathon, scanning various Amadeus Arkham writings around the island, and those *are* guilty of what I implied before; you're exploring them because you're told that there's something hidden there, not because you've deduced that there's something to investigate.
The final phase, though: You've found all the writings, and you're tasked with finding a final location, clued at in the various texts. The thing is, here, you're not directly pointed at *anything*. Heck, it's only implied - not explicitly stated - that there's a final solution to find. If you figure it out, though, and head to that location, you get a nice visual reward as well as a final component of Amadeus Arkham's story.
The only thing I would find fault with in that final section is that it's quite possible to simply stumble on the answer. It's a *bit* out-of-the-way, but if you're exploring comprehensively for other things, there's a fair chance you'll wander into it. Were there any Riddler Trophies in that final room? I forget.
There's absolutely the germ of an excellent puzzle in it, and I think it'd work even better if:
* You weren't directly led to the various writings around the island. That said, purely searching for them *isn't* much fun, as I spoke about above. It'd be nicer if you had to decipher clues to figure out each location, much like you need to do for the final one.
* The final location needs to be a little more out of the way, just to guarantee you'll *intend* to go there when you, uh, go there.
The final phase, though: You've found all the writings, and you're tasked with finding a final location, clued at in the various texts. The thing is, here, you're not directly pointed at *anything*. Heck, it's only implied - not explicitly stated - that there's a final solution to find. If you figure it out, though, and head to that location, you get a nice visual reward as well as a final component of Amadeus Arkham's story.
The only thing I would find fault with in that final section is that it's quite possible to simply stumble on the answer. It's a *bit* out-of-the-way, but if you're exploring comprehensively for other things, there's a fair chance you'll wander into it. Were there any Riddler Trophies in that final room? I forget.
There's absolutely the germ of an excellent puzzle in it, and I think it'd work even better if:
* You weren't directly led to the various writings around the island. That said, purely searching for them *isn't* much fun, as I spoke about above. It'd be nicer if you had to decipher clues to figure out each location, much like you need to do for the final one.
* The final location needs to be a little more out of the way, just to guarantee you'll *intend* to go there when you, uh, go there.
And, as a segue, a point about a secret in Arkham Origins, also spoilery:
There's a similar puzzle in Origins, although it approaches it a little differently; there is *no* guidance towards the clue locations at all (at least, that I've discovered). It's still relatively new, so I may be doing it a disservice (maybe there's a big clue I've missed!), but if not: Once again, searching isn't much fun. I *could* methodically move around each city block keeping my eyes open for the telltale blue glow (Or orange for the Anarky tags), but there's a lot of blocks to cover, a lot of potential angles and locations to investigate on each one. A comprehensive search is absolutely possible, I know exactly how I'd do it, but actually *executing* it... nah, I really can't be bothered. It's too big a job for no clear reward. I've got better things to do
Winnie the Pimp
Member
So i finally finished Dreamfall just now... great game overall, just the right length too for me! These days i don't have much gaming time so i appreciate short but sweet games all the more 
Can't wait for Dreamfall Chapters, any news regarding it's release, format etc?
Can't wait for Dreamfall Chapters, any news regarding it's release, format etc?
So i finally finished Dreamfall just now... great game overall, just the right length too for me! These days i don't have much gaming time so i appreciate short but sweet games all the more
Can't wait for Dreamfall Chapters, any news regarding it's release, format etc?
i thought TLJ and Dreamfall were really long?
Funcom PR lies apparently, 12 and 20 hrs for both games according to How Long to beat.
TLJ is, Dreamfall isn't.
MikeHattsu
Member
November 2014 on PC, Linux and Mac according to the kickstarter. Anybody here going to JourneyCon?
TripleSun
Member
Two exciting things I found today.
First one is that Gone Home is 50% off for only $10 on the Humble Store for the next 23 hours.
Second one is this new Kickstarter for The Slaughter which happens to be a noir crime thriller with Sierra and Revolution styles so I'm super excited and might pledge for the soundtrack bundle. Check it out here and spread the word! http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/510736733/the-slaughter
First one is that Gone Home is 50% off for only $10 on the Humble Store for the next 23 hours.
Second one is this new Kickstarter for The Slaughter which happens to be a noir crime thriller with Sierra and Revolution styles so I'm super excited and might pledge for the soundtrack bundle. Check it out here and spread the word! http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/510736733/the-slaughter
This is a great meaty post. Thanks. I really enjoyed reading that.
You remind me of why I preferred (back in the late 80's to mid 90's) Sierra On-line adventure games to those from Lucasfilm Games (later LucasArts).
The LucasArts ones had puzzles with solutions that were often so obtuse, illogical and out there that I honestly didn't enjoy solving them. I enjoyed the stories, the worlds and the characters, but the puzzles seemed an obstacle to the game's presentation of its narrative content.
In stark contrast, Sierra On-line made adventure games where I enjoyed the process of solving puzzles. I would say I looked forward to solving every puzzle and to encountering the next one. Sure, the characters and stories were entertaining too, but finding well-designed puzzles made me approach those stories in a very different way. Perhaps I should say: I felt more part of the story. In comparison, games from LucasArts made me feel more like an audience member watching the action, and having to go through an obstacle course every time I wanted to get back to my seat to watch what happened next.
With today's leading adventure game developer, Daedelic Entertainment, it often feels like they are leaning more towards the LucasArts side of things (unfortunately). Don't get me wrong, I love their games for their narrative (and visual) qualities, but I don't always feel as involved in them as in say a game from Wadjet Eye Games; or check out Jane Jensen's Gray Matter, one of the most Sierra-like adventure games I can think of from recent years (another great one is Perry Rhodan).
One last interesting thing to note is how Telltale Games (formed by ex-LucasArts staffers) have more or less continued the natural progression of LucasArts' game design philosophy by making games less like games and more cinematic. They havn't quite gone off the deep end as LucasArts did with the likes of Full Throttle (barely a game) and Loom, but they are teetering on the edge, carrying out a careful balancing act through which they've carved their own identity (more or less). I'm not a fan (at all), but I can appreciate that they've managed to carve a niche for themselves (even if it is rooted in past glories).
spot on.
I enjoyed the first part but all the present time stuff just bored me and I eventually didn't even finish it.
I don't understand how anyone can think that Telltale's latest releases are more gamey game than Full Throttle. The Walking Dead is pretty good and it's probably the best thing Telltale has ever produced but it has far more in common with visual novels than adventure games.
Honestly, Telltale has disappointed me so much. I had such high hopes for them after playing those original Bone games. At least we have Wadjet Eye now. They're easily the best of the modern adventure game producers.
TripleSun
Member
I enjoyed the atmosphere and story a lot in that game. I should replay it, although I remember it was a bit easy. Still a good game.
I touched briefly on the "FPS-as-corridor" thing in the previous post.
Full Throttle is the CoD of the adventure world.
I only half-agree: I recognise that Telltale has moved away from the classical adventure model... but I do actually rather like how they've done it. It's now its own thing, interesting in its own way, and that's fine.
To make more parallels: Modern Telltale is the Photopia of today. That was a game that was mostly linear, with only a few pure adventuring moments - but as a storytelling work, it was *far* above-average.
As long as we do keep getting the likes of Wadjet Eye producing *their* stuff, I don't mind Telltale doing theirs, because I think both forms of product are worth keeping.
Then the Walking Dead is House of the Dead of the adventure world.
This one was a nice surprise after I picked it up on a Steam daily sale real cheap. It starts slow with too much talking and very little actual puzzle gameplay, but after a while it picks up. The demo that I played before I bought it did more to turn me off from the game than show me actual good gameplay, so remember that if you tried the demo.
Where the game excels is that it shoves all adventure tropes (lost cities/civilizations, jungle temples, nazis etc.) into one game and combines it into a pleasant experience. The interface is also one of the best I saw in any current or past adventure games. The mouse cursor actually shows if an item can be combined with another item or used before you have to click on every hot spot and hope for a reaction. Just pick the item and hover them over items/places to see if they can be used. Cuts down on a lot of unnecessary clicking and listening to the protagonist reply for every click as feedback.
The weak part of the game is the writing. It is unnecessary verbose with weak reasoning for doing certain things as well as a need to make "quipy" remarks by the protagonist. The humor also falls flat where it tries to be funny.
Another weak point is the "Berlin" part of the game. This whole segment is actually a very good proof why some say adventure games didn't die in the 90s but that they killed themselves. There was a good article written about Gabriel Knight and the ridicules use of getting cat hair to create a fake identity. It comes to no surprise that the "Berlin" section of Lost Horizon has the same convoluted reasoning and puzzles for trying to achieve the same exact thing!
But don't let that get in the way of enjoying this title as it also does quite a lot of good things in my opinion. So far I count Lost Horizon as my favorite Deadalic game and hope they do more games like LH and less games like Deponia.
EDIT : Yup, it's from Animation Arts not Daedalic. I made a brain fart.
When I called The Walking Dead a visual novel, I wasn't using it as an insult. I like that kind of thing a lot and I agree that it's what Telltale should be doing.
I'm disappointed in Telltale more because they started out trying to be the new Lucasarts and I was hoping to see them get the adventure game thing down rather than move into a different genre.
But things are different now and adventure games aren't as dead as they were. I'd still like to have a developer as talented as Lucasarts involved but they really were something special.
Tizoc
Member
While I don't think it counts as a PnC or Adventure game, has anyone here played
Safecracker?
Safecracker?
Oh right, I just saw Daedalic and assumed you meant A New Beginning lol.
Lost Horizon was great, thoroughly enjoyed that.
Really enjoying Lost Horizon at the moment, it's like Indiana Jones and very much like Raiders of the Lost Arc. My only criticisms is some of the character faces and some pacing issues. I don't like the way Fenton Paddock looks but i do like the VA actor and the lines Fenton has.
If i was to rate it so far i would give it 8 out of 10. More people need to play this.
Also how is Jack Orlando: Director's Cut?
If i was to rate it so far i would give it 8 out of 10. More people need to play this.
Also how is Jack Orlando: Director's Cut?
Mildly annoying that there's not a similar ruling where you'll get a discount if you have either of the first two, but hey, I wasn't going to get around to it for ages yet anyway
yeah, at least you get giftable versions (unlike similar steam promos) but it seems every time Daedalic has a new release they have a promo that punishes the people that already own their games
Sir_Crocodile
Member
If you don't have the original yes, otherwise only if you want a digital version. The updates are pretty minimal (but thankfully not objectionable like the awful Templar directors cut).
All it really is is just portraits and a few graphical tweaks. I bought it when it was on sale just so I'd have a digital version(plus the original version of Mirror comes with it which is nice).
Not as punishing as the english dialogue in their games
RAIDEN1
Member
A cross post from the thread i made.
Wadjet Eye Games (Blackwell series and publishers of Gemini Rue/Primordia) are releasing a remake of one of their first games, The Shivah. The new version will be called The Shivah: Kosher Edition, the primary feature is upgraded graphics. Fans of Joey Malone from the Blackwell series should be interested as this was the first game Abe Goldfarb was in. The graphical upgrade brings it in line with Wadjet Eyes newer releases.
http://www.wadjeteyegames.com/games/the-shivah/
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The game is coming out on the 21st of November (2 days time) and can be pre-ordered from the Wadjet Eye site for $3.99 (will be $5 normally). You get a Steam key and DRM free copy from Wadjet Eye themselves. The Shivah: Kosher Edition is also being released on iOS.
Trailer
Wadjet Eye Games (Blackwell series and publishers of Gemini Rue/Primordia) are releasing a remake of one of their first games, The Shivah. The new version will be called The Shivah: Kosher Edition, the primary feature is upgraded graphics. Fans of Joey Malone from the Blackwell series should be interested as this was the first game Abe Goldfarb was in. The graphical upgrade brings it in line with Wadjet Eyes newer releases.
http://www.wadjeteyegames.com/games/the-shivah/
Old
New
Old
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Old
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The game is coming out on the 21st of November (2 days time) and can be pre-ordered from the Wadjet Eye site for $3.99 (will be $5 normally). You get a Steam key and DRM free copy from Wadjet Eye themselves. The Shivah: Kosher Edition is also being released on iOS.
Trailer
Finally got around to playing Secret Files. About half way through, and while it's no Lost Horizon (to be expected, it's a much more recent AA game), I'm still really enjoying it. And it furthers my theory that PnC's are better with female protagonists.
How do the sequels compare? Do they generally trend up or down in quality?
How do the sequels compare? Do they generally trend up or down in quality?
Dog Problems
Banned
In my opinion, each one gets a little worse. The first is still my favorite of the three main games and there's a recently released side game called Secret Files: Sam Peters that is apparently mediocre. Haven't played it myself, yet.
TripleSun
Member
I've heard it was medicore, but apparently AdventureGamers love it. That review was higher than I expected.
Messofanego
Banned
14 days until Broken Sword 5... *starts hyperventilating*
That close? Wow! Can't wait.
Did they do beta with the backers yet? The update from 2 weeks ago said the beta would be last week, but I haven't seen or heard anything.
Messofanego
Banned
That close? Wow! Can't wait.
Did they do beta with the backers yet? The update from 2 weeks ago said the beta would be last week, but I haven't seen or heard anything.
That was posted on Nov 5th, haven't heard anything yet, and I pledged more than $50. They dun goofed! Honestly, don't mind.
Yeah I don't really care either. I never played the moebius beta because I didn't want to ruin the game.