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Poles Hope to Sway President From Curtailing Court’s Independence

What's happening in Poland?:( did people forget their history?? :(

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/07/22/world/europe/poland-courts-andrzej-duda-law-and-justice.html

All last week, Poland’s Parliament debated whether to approve a raft of bills, proposed by the ruling Law and Justice party, that had come under heavy attack from European Union leaders, human-rights groups and many Poles. By the time the bills were passed early Saturday and sent for President Andrzej Duda’s signature, the peaceful protests that had begun a week earlier had grown and spread to dozens of cities across Poland.

“Thousands of people have been systematically and peacefully demonstrating against the laws and the politicization of the judiciary,” said Kamila Gasiuk-Pihowicz, a member of Parliament for Modern, an opposition party. “Poles suffered too long under Communism. There is no way that Polish citizens or the democratic opposition will allow this to happen to our country.”

The protest sites scattered across Warsaw were only sparsely filled by early afternoon Saturday, as the previous night’s much larger gatherings had lasted until near dawn.

Protesters in Warsaw have numbered in the tens of thousands most nights during the week of demonstrations, with smaller but still sizable gatherings in dozens of other cities. More are planned for this weekend.

One of the proposed laws awaiting the signature of Mr. Duda, who is expected to sign them, would force all current Supreme Court judges to resign, replacing them with jurists chosen by the ruling party’s Minister of Justice. Another would alter the National Council of the Judiciary, the body that approves judicial candidates, to give new government-appointed members a near veto power.

I left Poland in '84 but it's sad to see(glad to see people fighting back though).

Co się tam dzieje? :((((
 

antonz

Member
What's happening in Poland?:( did people forget their history?? :(

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/07/22/world/europe/poland-courts-andrzej-duda-law-and-justice.html





I left Poland in '84 but it's sad to see(glad to see people fighting back though).

Co się tam dzieje? :((((

Russia did a number on the country with its actions in Ukraine etc. Led a lot of people to fall for the strong guys promising to stand up against Russia. Problem is the strong guys always have ulterior motives. People have woken up to what's going on but now the people they voted in have the power
 

iz.podpolja

Neo Member
What's happening in Poland?:( did people forget their history?? :(

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/07/22/world/europe/poland-courts-andrzej-duda-law-and-justice.html





I left Poland in '84 but it's sad to see(glad to see people fighting back though).

Co się tam dzieje? :((((

Authoritarians won & now these are the consequences. It only shows that checks and balances work only if all parties agree that they are actually relevant. In this case the ruling party was able to circumvent their inability to change the constitution (they won ~30% of the popular vote) by not paying attention to it at all - in other words what you see is the result not unlike a situation when one of the football teams, failing to crush the other's defences, decided it's easier to win the game as a boxing match - of course first knocking the referee unconscious.
The popular opinion is overwhelmingly against the current "reform" (~55% vs 27%), calling for the president to "triple veto" (the package consist of 3 interlinked acts) the whole thing, but to be frank it means jack, `cause - as I said before - rules only work if you follow them.
 

darkinstinct

...lacks reading comprehension.
Duda said he won't sign it in its current form, it's been all over European news outlets the last couple of days. So why is the NYT acting like it's the opposite?
 

Knurek

Member
Duda said he won't sign it in its current form, it's been all over European news outlets the last couple of days. So why is the NYT acting like it's the opposite?

He said he needs an amendment before signing, giving him the power to appoint judges, instead of the Minister of Justice, and he got it.
He will sign it, he's like Chris Christie to Trumpczyński
 

iz.podpolja

Neo Member
This is allowed under EU framework?

Of course not. Law & Justice (quite ironic name for a party dismantling the rule of law) is moving fast enough for the EU not to be able to keep up. The procedure under article 7 (resulting in revoking member's voting rights) has already been initiated (or rather preparations to it) - but Orban, their Hungarian ally already declared that he would veto any attempts to punish the Polish government (otherwise he faces potentially the same problem in the future).
Let us see how things develop, but for now it looks really bleak, despite hundreds of thousands people taking to the streets.

PS 1. Funniest thing of all is that despite the ruling party being anti-Russian (tbh as every party in Polish politics) they're implementing the exact same set of regulations (just with a catholic, rather than orthodox flavour added to the mix).
 

Canadian

Member
What does the party have to gain by passing this law? If they do and make everyone upset, they will just be voted out next election and then be unable to appoint the judges they want?

I'm still trying to understand what their motive is for pushing for such an unfavourable law.
 
EU has threatened fines and suspension, so no. Problem is, countries need to agree, so for example Hungary can block those measures.

hungary wants the exact same thing so poland can do what they please.
What does the party have to gain by passing this law? If they do and make everyone upset, they will just be voted out next election and then be unable to appoint the judges they want?

I'm still trying to understand what their motive is for pushing for such an unfavourable law.

thats assuming that poland is a democracy with free press

at this point at least the latter is debatable.
 

Knurek

Member
What does the party have to gain by passing this law? If they do and make everyone upset, they will just be voted out next election and then be unable to appoint the judges they want?

I'm still trying to understand what their motive is for pushing for such an unfavourable law.

Those judges are also responsible for confirming validity of elections, so...
 

iz.podpolja

Neo Member
What does the party have to gain by passing this law? If they do and make everyone upset, they will just be voted out next election and then be unable to appoint the judges they want?

I'm still trying to understand what their motive is for pushing for such an unfavourable law.

You're assuming that the next elections will be fair. But they're already preparing changes to the voting system. Keep also in mind that as the opposition votes are divided across several parties, even with the drop in popularity, they still are the biggest party. Their voters either buy their version of the story (punish the rotten elites, more power to the people, end with the post-communism), or they don't care. To be frank, they're quite generous on the welfare front, and to the people who got the short end of the stick during the transformation, the ability to live rather then only survive simply is worth more than any - abstract to them - freedoms, or rule of law.
 

Metal B

Member
What does the party have to gain by passing this law? If they do and make everyone upset, they will just be voted out next election and then be unable to appoint the judges they want?

I'm still trying to understand what their motive is for pushing for such an unfavourable law.
Getting control over the country similar to Russia or Turkey. You don't need to be actually popular, you just need to be able to control the media, put enemies into prisons (or/and to simply kill them), pay the army and be able to freely manipulate the elections. Then you can have all the fake popularity you want.
 

Steejee

Member
This is so fucking sad. Poland looked like it was really pulling it together for a while, then populism and total pricks fuck it all up.
 

iz.podpolja

Neo Member
This is so fucking sad. Poland looked like it was really pulling it together for a while, then populism and total pricks fuck it all up.

Welcome to the brand new world, where everyone and their fascist aunt tries to be "great again", or at least "rise from the knees".
 

Violet_0

Banned
I have family in Poland. They all unanimously hate PiS(S) now. Thing is, I'm pretty sure that some might have voted for them. They're pretty conservative (yet also hate the church, go figure)
 

iz.podpolja

Neo Member
I have family in Poland. They all unaimously hate PiS(S) now. Thing is, I'm pretty sure that some might have voted for them. They're pretty conservative (yet also hate the church, go figure)

Poland (and the rest of Eastern Europe) is in general pretty conservative. The only party that one can call left - "Razem" polls at ~3% and is labeled as far-left even though by European standards they could be considered mainstream socialdemocrats.
The thing is the split here is not really along the progressive/conservative line but rather the liberal vs. non-liberal or "sovereign" democracy.
 

phaze

Member
Russia did a number on the country with its actions in Ukraine etc. Led a lot of people to fall for the strong guys promising to stand up against Russia. Problem is the strong guys always have ulterior motives. People have woken up to what's going on but now the people they voted in have the power

PiS was elected for the first time in 2005 and have been the one of two main parties since, their victory had little (nothing really) to do with Ukraine and more with the attrition, corruption scandals of the main party and internal politics in general.

Poland (and the rest of Eastern Europe) is in general pretty conservative. The only party that one can call left - "Razem" polls at ~3% and is labeled as far-left even though by European standards they could be considered mainstream socialdemocrats.
The thing is the split here is not really along the progressive/conservative line but rather the liberal vs. non-liberal or "sovereign" democracy.

Well PiS is the Left, at least economically so we're halfway there. ;)

How does a party win 30% of the vote yet have majorities at that level?

They have only the ordinary majority. It's actually the first time there is one in the Sejm in the whole 27 years of Free Poland, possible cause there were like 3 or 4 parties(but still relatively sizeable 3/4 %) that failed to get required 5% and because of d'Hondt method we're using that pretty much boosted PiS results.
-------------
Szydło, Duda already broke the constitution when they walked over the Constitution Tribunal, here you have another example of them breaking constitution by changing the term of Supreme's Court chief which is plainly written into the constitution. I'll hold out (delusional) hope that I'll get to see them behind bars in the future.
 

Luxorek

Member
Polish guy here, attended some protests where I live, but the biggest ones take place in our capital obviously.

It's a shame what's happening right now, but a combined feeling of political complacency and apathy among the voters lead us to this goverment. Around 52% voted in last parlamentary elections sadly.

In a way it mirrors the situation in USA. The current, ruling party was able to mobilize the young and convervative crowds opposed to Muslim refugees, abortion, homosexuality and so on.

I don't believe Duda will veto this law. He's just a puppet, a political nobody that PiS choose because they knew he would dance to their tunes.
 

Mimosa97

Member
Eastern Europe hates what they consider a " decadent " Western Europe so much that they chose to go full authoritarian. It's weird to see countries that have spent decades under a communist regime embrace religion and conservative ideas like this. It's even weirder when it's happening just a few years after their integration to the EU that they fought so hard for. It's basically " Please embrace us " just so that we could reject everything you stand for.

I understand why people in the East would be so afraid of radical islam when they see what's happening in France, the UK and Germany but still it's not enough to justify their rejection of democratic ideals.
 
Sad to see. I heard stories and vague memories of PRL and Jaruzelski.

Wałęsa must feel like shit to fight for Solidarity and freedom only for people to vote for anti-democracy.
 

phaze

Member
Sad to see. I heard stories and vague memories of PRL and Jaruzelski.

Wałęsa must feel like shit to fight for Solidarity and freedom only for people to vote for anti-democracy.

He feels like shit cause it turned out Kiszczak was hiding PRL-era documents that show he was a SB-collaborator (years before Solidarność). He denies it of course and says they're forgeries.
 

iz.podpolja

Neo Member
Eastern Europe hates what they consider a " decadent " Western Europe so much that they chose to go full authoritarian. It's weird to see countries that have spent decades under a communist regime embrace religion and conservative ideas like this. It's even weirder when it's happening just a few years after their integration to the EU that they fought so hard for. It's basically " Please embrace us " just so that we could reject everything you stand for.

Keep in mind Eastern Europe nor any other abstract entity (nation, country) can't think, nor consider. That's a highly reductionist view of reality.

If we really must generalise, it'd be way more appropriate to say that the current changes are:
- a local mutation of the widespread (also in Western Europe, as the number of "pray the local far-right doesn't win in x elections" threads on this very forum throughout the past year indicates) rise of the far-right populism

coupled with:

- failures of the economic transformation (leading to disenfranchisement of the part of population)

- general right-shift of the local politics (due to everything labelled left being associated with the previous regime), causing the aforementioned part of population to not have any kind of democratic representation for years

- cultural conservatism

- the relative weakness of democratic institutions.

That's also a simplification obviously, yet rings more true, doesn't it?
 
He feels like shit cause it turned out Kiszczak was hiding PRL-era documents that show he was a SB-collaborator (years before Solidarność). He denies it of course and says they're forgeries.

Didn't know about that. I figured everyone was a collaborator at some point back then.
 

iz.podpolja

Neo Member
Didn't know about that. I figured everyone was a collaborator at some point back then.

Pretty much. That being said it's very useful when it comes to rewriting the history of Solidarity movement that takes place these days.
TBH, It's kind of funny to see, how it's being done, with the current state media employing the exact same language that PRL propaganda did. I mean you'd think that ultra-conservative nationalists would find a new language to describe their version of reality - but nope - it's still the same old shite.
 

Nokterian

Member
I have family in Poland. They all unanimously hate PiS(S) now. Thing is, I'm pretty sure that some might have voted for them. They're pretty conservative (yet also hate the church, go figure)

Yeah they hate them now but they didn't thought of it when voting for them. Same goes where populism is rising. Same here in the Netherlands..people vote for geert wilders from PVV and Mark Rutte from VVD because they are nice people. These people who vote for them don't think straight and when things finally happen as we see in Poland it is already to late.

People are ignorant,dumb,foolish and selfish these days thinking more about themselves and being fucking greedy and saying i don't care when you try to invoke them saying this is all wrong because you know you do it is wrong.
 

Knurek

Member
Pretty much. That being said it's very useful when it comes to rewriting the history of Solidarity movement that takes place these days.
TBH, It's kind of funny to see, how it's being done, with the current state media employing the exact same language that PRL propaganda did. I mean you'd think that ultra-conservative nationalists would find a new language to describe their version of reality - but nope - it's still the same old shite.

I don't recall PRL media calling the opposition 'Soros financed pedophile supporters', and that's what the state media have been labeling the protesters.
 

Kimawolf

Member
Of course not. Law & Justice (quite ironic name for a party dismantling the rule of law) is moving fast enough for the EU not to be able to keep up. The procedure under article 7 (resulting in revoking member's voting rights) has already been initiated (or rather preparations to it) - but Orban, their Hungarian ally already declared that he would veto any attempts to punish the Polish government (otherwise he faces potentially the same problem in the future).
Let us see how things develop, but for now it looks really bleak, despite hundreds of thousands people taking to the streets.

PS 1. Funniest thing of all is that despite the ruling party being anti-Russian (tbh as every party in Polish politics) they're implementing the exact same set of regulations (just with a catholic, rather than orthodox flavour added to the mix).

Well couldn't they just boot Hungary out as well? If these countries want to be Russia lite (Ironic...) then maybe they shouldn't be in the EU.
 

Luxorek

Member
I don't recall PRL media calling the opposition 'Soros financed pedophile supporters', and that's what the state media have been labeling the protesters.

It's sickening what PiS did to public television. They turned TVP into fuckin' Fox News with eye-rolling headlines catering to their political base. It's good we have alternatives in TVN, but still...
 

iz.podpolja

Neo Member
I don't recall PRL media calling the opposition 'Soros financed pedophile supporters', and that's what the state media have been labelling the protesters.

Sure Soros is (kind of) new, but just replace it with Gomulka's "zionists" and it fits perfectly (with the true anti-semitic ring to it as well);
I already heard again that "cyclists" are "evil". Even the syntax & intonation is the same.

"Wybór Tuska sukcesem Niemiec"
[Tusk's election - success of Germany]
"Stocznia szczecińska: Położono stępkę pod nowy statek"
[Szczecin shipyard: The keel laid for a new ship]
"Obrońcy pedofilów i alimenciarze twarzami oporu przeciwko reformie sądownictwa"
[Defenders of pedophiles and <alimony payers, pej.> - face of the resistance against the judiciary reform]

Its widespread use of awkward constructions with instrumental (popularised under the influence of Russian language propaganda) and common inversions sound extremely familiar to me. Not to mention the "industrial" vibe that you get in the second example & those are just some random quotes from google.
 
Well couldn't they just boot Hungary out as well? If these countries want to be Russia lite (Ironic...) then maybe they shouldn't be in the EU.
Booting countries out of the EU is kind of an extreme measure. These parties were elected by the people. It is not like we are talking straight up dictatorships or even unfair elections like in Russia for example. So as long as new elections are held when planned and everything goes fair, we shouldn't just kick them out over 1 or 2 elections that have lead to a bit of a problematic government for a few years.
 

iz.podpolja

Neo Member
Well couldn't they just boot Hungary out as well? If these countries want to be Russia lite (Ironic...) then maybe they shouldn't be in the EU.

Well, that's the problem - there are two countries that can veto any decision against one of them, so a new mechanism is needed.

Booting countries out of the EU is kind of an extreme measure. These parties were elected by the people. It is not like we are talking straight up dictatorships or even unfair elections like in Russia for example. So as long as new elections are held when planned and everything goes fair, we shouldn't just kick them out over 1 or 2 elections that have lead to a bit of a problematic government for a few years.

True, but there should be disciplinary measures against governments attempting to undermine common European foundation, as in: some hefty fines, restriction of access to funds & so on. If the country fails to fulfil Copanhagen Criteria, required for the accession, it cannot enjoy full benefits of the EU membership.
 

Madness

Member
Welcome to the brand new world, where everyone and their fascist aunt tries to be "great again", or at least "rise from the knees".

I'm guessing you think human history and development isn't cyclical and that there is no pendulum of politics. It was the height of naivete in the late 80's and 90's to put out books and essays of things like The End of History? Talking about how "western liberal democracy may signal the endpoint of humanity's sociocultural evolution and the final form of human government." People keep thinking we are moving to some new stage of global world order and yet ignoring we aren't. We are witnessing for the first time in maybe 600 years, the decline of Western/European military and economic dominance. This means countries in the West will try everything and the kitchen sink to maintain what they have. You'll see more strong men 'promise' to make their coutries great again, restore values, we did so and so and need to maintain it.
 

iz.podpolja

Neo Member
I'm guessing you think human history and development isn't cyclical and that there is no pendulum of politics. It was the height of naivete in the late 80's and 90's to put out books and essays of things like The End of History? Talking about how "western liberal democracy may signal the endpoint of humanity's sociocultural evolution and the final form of human government." People keep thinking we are moving to some new stage of global world order and yet ignoring we aren't. We are witnessing for the first time in maybe 600 years, the decline of Western/European military and economic dominance. This means countries in the West will try everything and the kitchen sink to maintain what they have. You'll see more strong men 'promise' to make their coutries great again, restore values, we did so and so and need to maintain it.

Sure, the pendulum's there, perhaps it's only even gaining momentum now.
I'm only slightly amused by the choice of language that accompanies the far-right swing of it. Why for f*ck's sake it has to be the same tired metaphor all the time.
 

Ben Ghazi

Banned
He feels like shit cause it turned out Kiszczak was hiding PRL-era documents that show he was a SB-collaborator (years before Solidarno&#347;&#263;). He denies it of course and says they're forgeries.

And he was such a good collaborator that PRL went tits-up lol

Seriously tho, I don't give a shit about his collaboration with SB, his input in Solidarno&#347;&#263; is undeniable and far exceeds whatever he could've done while supposedly collaborating, and PiS obviously dug this up to cover up for their Sejm Marshall being a former PRL prosecutor who received an order for his PRL service
 

iamblades

Member
I'm guessing you think human history and development isn't cyclical and that there is no pendulum of politics. It was the height of naivete in the late 80's and 90's to put out books and essays of things like The End of History? Talking about how "western liberal democracy may signal the endpoint of humanity's sociocultural evolution and the final form of human government." People keep thinking we are moving to some new stage of global world order and yet ignoring we aren't. We are witnessing for the first time in maybe 600 years, the decline of Western/European military and economic dominance. This means countries in the West will try everything and the kitchen sink to maintain what they have. You'll see more strong men 'promise' to make their coutries great again, restore values, we did so and so and need to maintain it.

People always misunderstand Fukuyama's point though. He never said that nations wouldn't go backwards and become less liberal and less democratic(he in fact warned against this very thing). His point was that liberal democracy was the best political system that humans are capable of building, and that there is no longer any viable alternative to it.
 
And he was such a good collaborator that PRL went tits-up lol

Seriously tho, I don't give a shit about his collaboration with SB, his input in Solidarno&#347;&#263; is undeniable and far exceeds whatever he could've done while supposedly collaborating, and PiS obviously dug this up to cover up for their Sejm Marshall being a former PRL prosecutor who received an order for his PRL service

That kind of whataboutism is so common now.

Still hypocritical for them adopting the same techniques Russia uses, I thought they were accusing Russia of murdering Lech Kaczy&#324;ski.
 

Ben Ghazi

Banned
That kind of whataboutism is so common now.

Still hypocritical for them adopting the same techniques Russia uses, I thought they were accusing Russia of murdering Lech Kaczy&#324;ski.

Ale Pe&#322;o! Kanalie! Zamordowali brata! Tusk do wi&#281;zienia! Amber Gold!

Translation: But Civic Platform! Scum! (the former governing party in coalition that supposedly did the same thing PiS is doing now (it didn't)) They murdered the brother! (Lech Kaczy&#324;ski, former President, died in the Smole&#324;sk tragedy) Tusk to prison! (Former Prime Minister from Civic Platform) Amber Gold! (some MLM they are trying to incriminate Tusk for, haven't read up on it so don't ask me about the details)
 

iz.podpolja

Neo Member
That kind of whataboutism is so common now.

Still hypocritical for them adopting the same techniques Russia uses, I thought they were accusing Russia of murdering Lech Kaczy&#324;ski.

Now they focus on the opposition murdering him (at least according to Jaros&#322;aw Kaczy&#324;ski's own words).

If I remember correctly half of the victims that perished in the plane crash were actually members of the current opposition though. That's, you know, quite a hefty blood price to pay, to get rid off a not so popular president.

I guess, that's what you get, when the most important figure in the Polish politics nowadays suffers from an unprocessed trauma...
 

Shauni

Member
I knew that Poland had taken a hard right turn, but didn't know that it was that bad. Sounds like they're about one step away from a totalitarian regime.
 
What's happening in Poland?:( did people forget their history?? :(

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/07/22/world/europe/poland-courts-andrzej-duda-law-and-justice.html

I left Poland in '84 but it's sad to see(glad to see people fighting back though).

Co si&#281; tam dzieje? :((((

What is happening is a massive conflict of interest over who controls state owned companies and decides how state funds are spend.

Since previous coalition ruled for 8 years they managed to fill almost every position in country with their own people so there's big resistance whenever new government wants to fill those places with their own people.

Current opposition is supported by media houses who benefited tremendously from advertising money and subscriptions from state owned companies but were cut off since those funds were redirected to right wing media after election and they react hysterically to anything government does screaming "fascism and end of democracy" for last two years.

It's all about money.
 

Shauni

Member
I think this is really a stiff reminder too how little protesting really does. Europeans often shame Americans for their lack of protesting, or lack of intense protesting probably is better to say, but here we're seeing massive protests and have been in Poland for at least a year from what I can remember reading, and it doesn't really seem to have stopped anything.

I'm not bashing protesting, I think it's worth practicing, but the amount of power it actually wields is pretty weak in the grand scheme of things it feels like.
 

Ben Ghazi

Banned
Now they focus on the opposition murdering him (at least according to Jaros&#322;aw Kaczy&#324;ski's own words).

If I remember correctly half of the victims that perished in the plane crash were actually members of the current opposition though. That's, you know, quite a hefty blood price to pay, to get rid off a not so popular president.

I guess, that's what you get, when the most important figure in the Polish politics nowadays suffers from an unprocessed trauma...

Smole&#324;sk broke Poland, like it literally caused a rift creating an alternate universe that swallowed half of Poland. You had an independent academic committee on the tragedy that said ther is an overabundance of proof that it was the pilot's mistake, and people would rather listen to Mad Man Macierewicz's committee that consisted of people classifying the way a sausage breaks when boiled as proof that a bomb was detonated on a plane, I can't even.

And because our government was too stupid and insisted on flying to an underequipped airport in Smole&#324;sk and understaffing the plane that carried OUR FUCKING PRESIDENT, the piece of shit Jaros&#322;aw Kaczy&#324;ski with his band of stooges got more popular and Smole&#324;sk conspiracy became a religion.

Fuck this party, fuck the people who voted them in, Republicans ain't got shit on them. I'm not feeling this country anymore, all it brings me is disgust in how people rationalize what this government is doing by saying "what about the previous one?" like what those guys did was a tenth of a percent of the things that are happening now. Meanwhile you have the Razem party full of hope and reason, and I fear that they won't get into the Sejm in next election, and PiS wins the majority again, in which case I'll be getting the fuck out of this country.

What is happening is a massive conflict of interest over who controls state owned companies and decides how state funds are spend.

Since previous coalition ruled for 8 years they managed to fill almost every position in country with their own people so there's big resistance whenever new government wants to fill those places with their own people.

Current opposition is supported by media houses who benefited tremendously from advertising money and subscriptions from state owned companies but were cut off since those funds were redirected to right wing media after election and they react hysterically to anything government does screaming "fascism and end of democracy" for last two years.

It's all about money.

Yes, both sides are the same, great fucking argument as to why our Supreme Court is getting the axe.
 

Christhor

Member
Not too surprising, most of the Polish people I've worked with think that the people in charge have done everything perfectly, unlike the leaders of Western Europe. You do you, Poland.
 

Shauni

Member
So, am I understanding this right that this is basically the end of democracy in Poland then? Is there really any real hope for free and fair elections since the courts verify the election results?
 

iz.podpolja

Neo Member
I knew that Poland had taken a hard right turn, but didn't know that it was that bad. Sounds like they're about one step away from a totalitarian regime.

Yeah, well, while taking the right turn, the man behind the wheel decided to disable the driving assist, accelerating simultaneously; the car's wheels locked; half of the passengers scream in horror, one guy is completely drunk and seems to enjoy the ride, another cares more about the free snacks he found on the back seat. Meanwhile the car approaches the edge of the road where a dark precipice awaits. The driver though seemingly oblivious to the danger, stares blankly into the space, mumbling curses addressed at his predecessor.
 

Ben Ghazi

Banned
So, am I understanding this right that this is basically the end of democracy in Poland then? Is there really any real hope for free and fair elections since the courts verify the election results?

Yes, you're absolutely correct. And to think in 2014 we had a local government election across the whole country in which PSL (smaller than PiS and PO, though known for its good standing in local governments) achieved surprisingly good results, which the JarKacz just wouldn't accept and started whining to the European Union about it (ironic, considering he accuses the opposition party to be doing the same about what's happening now, which makes fucking sense because we are part of the EU), and said that the Courts are to blame for accepting the results.
 
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