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[Knurek]

So, am I understanding this right that this is basically the end of democracy in Poland then? Is there really any real hope for free and fair elections since the courts verify the election results?

The only way it's going to change is if Kaczynski is so afraid of public protests he orders Duda to veto the bill.
Worked for PiS planned total abortion ban, didn't work for PiS education reform. Might go either way. :\
But yeah, if the bill passes, it's the end of western democracy in Poland - imagine what would happen in the USA if Trump passed a law firing all Supreme Court justices and appointing a new set of them personally or via Sessions.

 

[Shauni]

The only way it's going to change is if Kaczynski is so afraid of public protests he orders Duda to veto the bill.
Worked for PiS planned total abortion ban, didn't work for PiS education reform. Might go either way. :\
But yeah, if the bill passes, it's the end of western democracy in Poland - imagine what would happen in the USA if Trump passed a law firing all Supreme Court justices and appointing a new set of them personally or via Sessions.

Man, what a shame. It's such a depressing time to be alive, it feels like.

 

[Ben Ghazi]

I don't wanna live in a country that everyone older than me told me about. I don't want to raise my kids in such a country. I don't want to worry about going to a political prison because of making a joke about the President. Sometimes I get so angry about it I have horrible thoughts, I never asked for this, fuck this country, if it can't get its shit together I don't wanna be a part of it.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

Sure Soros is (kind of) new, but just replace it with Gomulka's "zionists" and it fits perfectly (with the true anti-semitic ring to it as well);
I already heard again that "cyclists" are "evil". Even the syntax & intonation is the same.

"Wybór Tuska sukcesem Niemiec"
[Tusk's election - success of Germany]
"Stocznia szczecińska: Położono stępkę pod nowy statek"
[Szczecin shipyard: The keel laid for a new ship]
"Obrońcy pedofilów i alimenciarze twarzami oporu przeciwko reformie sądownictwa"
[Defenders of pedophiles and <alimony payers, pej.> - face of the resistance against the judiciary reform]

Its widespread use of awkward constructions with instrumental (popularised under the influence of Russian language propaganda) and common inversions sound extremely familiar to me. Not to mention the "industrial" vibe that you get in the second example & those are just some random quotes from google.

Thank you for your contributions to this thread. This is really useful ground-level info! Stay safe and know that there are people out here who care about your country's plight!

 

[KernelPanic]

I don't wanna live in a country that everyone older than me told me about. I don't want to raise my kids in such a country. I don't want to worry about going to a political prison because of making a joke about the President. Sometimes I get so angry about it I have horrible thoughts, I never asked for this, fuck this country, if it can't get its shit together I don't wanna be a part of it.

That's awful

Explains the angry sarcastic Andrzej Duda posts I see on my FB feed from family back home.

 

[phaze]

So, am I understanding this right that this is basically the end of democracy in Poland then? Is there really any real hope for free and fair elections since the courts verify the election results?

I wouldn't really say but I guess it depends really on what J.Kaczynski will want to do. I didn't and I still don't believe he would try to falsify the elections but we're getting closer and closer to some kind of Venezuelan situation. With packed courts (and one should see how the current PiS backed head of constitutional tribunal behaves) there will be very little in the way of obstacles to breaking law and Constitution (which they were doing even before packing the court by simply refusing to publish the sentence of the court, which they had no right to)

 

[Shauni]

Christ all, I guess that's it for Poland for at least another 2-3 decades then, huh? Sucks for the Poles, bad for the EU, another blow to democracy on the world stage. Damn it all.

 

[Ben Ghazi]

That's awful

Explains the angry sarcastic Andrzej Duda posts I see on my FB feed from family back home.

You have no idea. I can't even talk to my parents about it because my dad says EU leeches money off us (not true, we got 3x as much money as we put in, if not more) and my mom just repeats what she hears in the national radio, also she voted for PiS, because of fucking retirement age legislation, and she doesn't realise that because she retires sooner she will have less money. Shit makes me furious, if I didn't have my girlfriend, who is a damn angel and deserves every single bit of love and effort I can give her, I would be at least depressed, because it hurts, it fucking hurts. I really, really do feel for US-GAF and their Trump issues, but what's happening here is so much more depressing for me, and I'm glad this thread exists, because it's hard to talk about my little country in the midst of all the GAF threads.

You're the best, GAF. Don't ever let this happen to you, both sides are never the same, and fuck the fascists.

 

[Septy]

You have no idea. I can't even talk to my parents about it because my dad says EU leeches money off us (not true, we got 3x as much money as we put in, if not more) and my mom just repeats what she hears in the national radio, also she voted for PiS, because of fucking retirement age legislation, and she doesn't realise that because she retires sooner she will have less money. Shit makes me furious, if I didn't have my girlfriend, who is a damn angel and deserves every single bit of love and effort I can give her, I would be at least depressed, because it hurts, it fucking hurts. I really, really do feel for US-GAF and their Trump issues, but what's happening here is so much more depressing for me, and I'm glad this thread exists, because it's hard to talk about my little country in the midst of all the GAF threads.

You're the best, GAF. Don't ever let this happen to you, both sides are never the same, and fuck the fascists.

I'm sorry to hear that, can I ask, where do they live?

I live in Poznan, and the EU and all these German and other foreign businesses have brought such prosperity to Wielkopolska. I can't imagine what alternate reality people in PiS country live in. This city is totally unrecognisable compared to a few years ago, our membership of the EU is a big part of that.

 

[Ben Ghazi]

I'm sorry to hear that, can I ask, where do they live?

I live in Poznan, and the EU and all these German and other foreign businesses have brought such prosperity to Wielkopolska. I can't imagine what alternate reality people in PiS country live in. This city is totally unrecognisable compared to a few years ago, our membership of the EU is a big part of that.

Oh shit man, I've been to Poznan twice for English competition, beautiful city, and it feels so West-like, I envy you greatly. I wonder how it looked before, because if it gets better, then I'm seriously considering moving here or to Wroc&#322;aw.

I am a CS student, study in Gliwice, live in Tychy with my parents (30 km south of Katowice), and Silesia I gotta tell you is full of it's own shit with being up its own ass about its coal. National mines being on government life support, and people won't accept that the solar future is coming and foaming at their mouth when they hear a mention of a carbon tax. Of course we also got plenty of those EU donations, but pshhhhh, who cares about those.

 

[KernelPanic]

You have no idea. I can't even talk to my parents about it because my dad says EU leeches money off us (not true, we got 3x as much money as we put in, if not more) and my mom just repeats what she hears in the national radio, also she voted for PiS, because of fucking retirement age legislation, and she doesn't realise that because she retires sooner she will have less money. Shit makes me furious, if I didn't have my girlfriend, who is a damn angel and deserves every single bit of love and effort I can give her, I would be at least depressed, because it hurts, it fucking hurts. I really, really do feel for US-GAF and their Trump issues, but what's happening here is so much more depressing for me, and I'm glad this thread exists, because it's hard to talk about my little country in the midst of all the GAF threads.

You're the best, GAF. Don't ever let this happen to you, both sides are never the same, and fuck the fascists.

Thanks for your posts, it's good to hear what's happening there. My family don't say much.

Having some kind of Poland-GAF would be great, not sure if it exists.

 

[iz.podpolja]

What is happening is a massive conflict of interest over who controls state owned companies and decides how state funds are spend.

Since previous coalition ruled for 8 years they managed to fill almost every position in country with their own people so there's big resistance whenever new government wants to fill those places with their own people.

Current opposition is supported by media houses who benefited tremendously from advertising money and subscriptions from state owned companies but were cut off since those funds were redirected to right wing media after election and they react hysterically to anything government does screaming "fascism and end of democracy" for last two years.

It's all about money.

Sure "TKM" (Teraz K*rwa My - <Now, F*ck It, It's Our Turn>) has always been a part of Polish politics, but portrayal of the current state of affairs, especially dismantling of the constitutional checks & balances, as normal is ABSURD.

'Cause is it "more of the same" as you seem to imply:

- when constitutional tribunal is de facto defunct (and de iure it's not even a legal assembly anymore),

- when supreme court and the judiciary system are being actively dismantled,

- when even the independent civil service was abolished (it never became dominant, as it's a pain in the politicians' asses, but circa 12,5% of all administration employees were working within the framework), and now we're back to the law from... 1986 [sic!] - the time we all know as a high point of politics in Poland...),

- when ethnic minorities are scared (to this I can testify as a member of one of them) cause blatantly racist attacks are dismissed by the police as, quote: "acts of hooliganism", and we cannot even get the relevant commission in the Parliament to gather, cause our concerns are labelled as "unwarranted demands",

- when in the same parliament language of hate, open racism seems to be the new standard of communication, with some bonus quirks on top of that (MPs barking, wtf?!);

- when... the litany of problems is just too long to put in here in a concise way...

Because if you seriously are able to depict the whole thing as simply "struggle for money" , as just the other side doing the exact same thing, then either you're really young, and have nothing to compare the today's situation to, or your notion of normality differs so much from mine, that any discussion is kind of futile, unless we can go back to the basics and at least define common terminology.

 

[Mockerre]

Kaczy&#324;ski is a hateful man driven to the brink by the tragic death of his brother. His right-wing party aims to abolish the separation of powers and limit the citizens freedoms. Sadly, there is nothing people can do now, save for a violent protest.

Poland follows in the footsteps of most of the post-soviet states. There are allegations that the right-wing people, as far as Kaczy&#324;ski's right-hand man, are on Putin's bill.

 

[ultratruman]

The big man showed up. Good to see he's out of hospital.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...bill-to-give-government-influence-over-courts

 

[phaze]

Thanks for your posts, it's good to hear what's happening there. My family don't say much.

Having some kind of Poland-GAF would be great, not sure if it exists.

It exists.

As an inactive corpse that is. http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=601611&highlight=polish&page=5

 

[Ben Ghazi]

Thanks for your posts, it's good to hear what's happening there. My family don't say much.

Having some kind of Poland-GAF would be great, not sure if it exists.

There was this thread, it's dead though.

- when ethnic minorities are scared (to this I can testify as a member of one of them) cause blatantly racist attacks are dismissed by the police as, quote: "acts of hooliganism", and we cannot even get the relevant commission in the Parliament to gather, cause our concerns are labelled as "unwarranted demands",

I'm so sorry you have to experience that, and you have zero representation as of now. I hope you don't let them get the best of you, we desperately need as much diversity as we can get because on the course Poland is going now, it's going to dissolve into irrelevance, and I would despise if something would happen to you, and all the under-represented and under-appreciated people in the country that I'm supposed to love.

 

[iz.podpolja]

Sadly, there is nothing people can do now, save for a violent protest.

Violent protests perhaps can gain some sympathy abroad and trigger more "expressions of deep concern", but I saw this in person during Maidan, and all in all I don't know if burying your friends is a price that's worth paying. Sure it looks good on TV, might be breaking news for a day or two, the Guardian will bump it to the front page, but that's a crack in the society that takes generations to heal, loss of life or health that cannot be ever possibly compensated - while the news cycle continues.

 

[iz.podpolja]

There was this thread, it's dead though.



I'm so sorry you have to experience that, and you have zero representation as of now. I hope you don't let them get the best of you, we desperately need as much diversity as we can get because on the course Poland is going now, it's going to dissolve into irrelevance, and I would despise if something would happen to you, and all the under-represented and under-appreciated people in the country that I'm supposed to love.

I didn't mean to make this about me. I'm Belarusian born in Poland, so I don't look any different, and learnt to speak with no hint of an accent when I was a kid, so I'm kind of good. However I've worked for years with several ethnic minority associations (chiefly Kalejdoskop Kultur foundation from Wroclaw), and for instance Tatars are really in a bad place right now (imagine being a Muslim and looking markedly different). I've heard some quite terrifying stories from the newly arrived Ukrainians as well, and saw some people beaten unconscious just for speaking the wrong tongue. So yeah it's rough.

 

[Ben Ghazi]

Just posting in this thread it dawned on me how fucked we are. Like, there's literally no way to go there but down because some fucking piece of shit mad man with Napoleon complex had a brother who died as President, and a majority of elderly and middle-aged people who decided to go full retard and show their ass to the EU and declare it a "rise from our knees". Fucking hell, I gotta go to my internship in 9 hours where my boss' opinion on Trump and Hillary is "give Trump a chance, both sides were the same, NYT fake news about Russian collusion". Fucking hell, do I have to lose respect for 60% of people I know because I was born in this fucking region of this fucking country? I'm afraid of talking politics with my friends because finding out that I'm alone in this would just be too much. I'm sorry for being over-dramatic, I just for the first time in my life am afraid about what will become of my life in a few years, for real.

I didn't mean to make this about me. I'm Belarusian born in Poland, so I don't look any different, and learnt to speak with no hint of an accent when I was a kid, so I'm kind of good. However I've worked for years with several ethnic minority associations (chiefly Kalejdoskop Kultur foundation from Wroclaw), and for instance Tatars are really in a bad place right now (imagine being a Muslim and looking markedly different). I've heard some quite terrifying stories from the newly arrived Ukrainians as well, and saw some people beaten unconscious just for speaking the wrong tongue. So yeah it's rough.

This is about you, all those ethnic minorities, me, everyone in Poland, all are affected by this, and even if you're good because of your appearance, it'll be a matter of time before they start literally making lists and trying to divide people of different nationalities and political opinions in Poland. I hope one day people will realise that it's not the poor people from the East that are the problem, it's the ONR types, and nationalists that are the biggest threat to Poland because of how regressive the far-right sentiment is.

 

[KernelPanic]

Find it hard to believe anyone in Poland would give Russia any benefit of the doubt knowing their history and that the same old Chekists are still in control there.

 

[Ben Ghazi]

Guess what people, the Senate passed the WRONG VERSION of the Supreme Court bill because the Sejm Marshall gave them not the version that was voted in the Sejm. This is like if we cloned Trump, and stuffed half of our government with his clones. This bill is fractally unconstitutional.

 

[Ac30]

Seems to be a pretty decent protest out tonight:

https://out.reddit.com/t3_6p3kec?ur...aN7zCwTHEi0uTLLl1XUNjN96GHas7&app_name=mweb2x

Let's hope Duda does the right thing (fat chance, I guess :/)

 

[Mr_Zombie]

Guess what people, the Senate passed the WRONG VERSION of the Supreme Court bill because the Sejm Marshall gave them not the version that was voted in the Sejm. This is like if we cloned Trump, and stuffed half of our government with his clones. This bill is fractally unconstitutional.

You should also mention that even without that mistake, the bill passed by the Senate already had a major error the Senate decided not to fix. Basically, one article contradicted another about the number of candidates for the post of the First President of Supreme Court - one mentions that there should be 5 candidates for the post, while the other mentions 3 candidates. The Senate purposefully ignored the error, since in case any fix was passed, the bill would then need to return to the Sejm - and the next Sejm meeting is in September. PiS tried to rush the bill because there are two very important Supreme Court meetings in August that would state whether or not the ruling party broke the law.

This thing is madness. They tried to pass a bill that completely revolutionize the whole court system within a week, with no consultations, completely ignoring the opposition and anyone that said that the bill is unconstitutional, all the while spreading a really terrible and heavy-handed propaganda.

 

[Ben Ghazi]

You should also mention that even without that mistake, the bill passed by the Senate already had a major error the Senate decided not to fix. Basically, one article contradicted another about the number of candidates for the post of the First President of Supreme Court - one mentions that there should be 5 candidates for the post, while the other mentions 3 candidates. The Senate purposefully ignored the error, since in case any fix was passed, the bill would then need to return to the Sejm - and the next Sejm meeting is in September. PiS tried to rush the bill because there are two very important Supreme Court meetings in August that would state whether or not the ruling party broke the law.

This thing is madness. They tried to pass a bill that completely revolutionize the whole court system within a week.

I actually didn't know that, it makes complete sense why they would rush it so hard now. Fucking traitors.

Seems to be a pretty decent protest out tonight:

https://out.reddit.com/t3_6p3kec?ur...aN7zCwTHEi0uTLLl1XUNjN96GHas7&app_name=mweb2x

Let's hope Duda does the right thing (fat chance, I guess :/)

Holy fuck, that's a lot of people! Too bad Duda's political career ends with Liliputin.

 

[iz.podpolja]

Seems to be a pretty decent protest out tonight:

https://out.reddit.com/t3_6p3kec?ur...aN7zCwTHEi0uTLLl1XUNjN96GHas7&app_name=mweb2x

Let's hope Duda does the right thing (fat chance, I guess :/)

That'd be the right thing to do...
...however unfortunately the smart thing is for him to send the whole thing to the Constitutional Tribunal, which would then rather swiftly declare it constitutional. He would show that he is "independent" on one hand and on the other he would not clash with the party structures. As a by-product protests would lose a bit of momentum, and as Duda has already secured amendments that make his role in the whole process bigger he'd be golden.

 

[Ac30]

I actually didn't know that, it makes complete sense why they would rush it so hard now. Fucking traitors.



Holy fuck, that's a lot of people! Too bad Duda's political career ends with Liliputin.

Let me get this straight - they're trying to pass a faulty bill so they can stock the Supreme Court before the August decisions? Holy shit. That's devious. This is a disgustingly blatant power grab.

 

[Mr_Zombie]

Let me get this straight - they're trying to pass a faulty bill so they can stock the Supreme Court before the August decisions? Holy shit. That's devious. This is a disgustingly blatant power grab.

It's not official, and the righ-wing press currently tries to deny this, but this is the only explicable reason why they tried to pass the bill so fast. Not to mention, they already did this before with Constitutional Court, where they either created new bills just to fuck CC meetings (i.e. "in order to pass a judge, more than X judges have to agree", where X was something like 3/4 or 4/5 instead of 1/2) or the President signed nominations of new Constitutional Court judges right before (2 am or 3 am, the night before the CC meeting) the Court could decide whether the Sejm even had a right to nominate them.

I actually didn't know that, it makes complete sense why they would rush it so hard now. Fucking traitors.

One meeting is about whether or not the President had the right to amnesty Mariusz Kami&#324;ski - the former chief of Central Anticorruption Bureau. The problem is, when the President pardoned him, he hadn't been convicted yet (was still waiting for the final judgement; as Duda said himself, the President "relieved the court"). And if he was pardoned after the conviction, he wouldn't be able to act as a minister like he currently does because even though pardoned, he would still be a former convict.

The second meeting is about whether or not the current head of the Constitutional Court (Julia Przy&#322;&#281;bska) was legally appointed, since right before she was chosen for the post, the ruling party passed few bills that heavily helped her. One of those bills temporarily nominated her (specifically her) to act as the president of the CC in the time between the departure of the former president of the Constitution Court (prof. Rzepli&#324;ski) and the election of a new one. Previously the vice-president acted as the head of CC in such situation.

 

[Ac30]

It's not official, and the righ-wing press currently tries to deny this, but this is the only explicable reason why they tried to pass the bill so fast. Not to mention, they already did this before with Constitutional Court, where they rushed with signing bills or passing nominations of the new judges before the CC could say whether the passed bill is even constitutional.



One meeting is about whether or not the President had the right to amnesty Mariusz Kami&#324;ski - the former chief of Central Anticorruption Bureau. The problem is, when the President pardoned him, he hadn't been convicted yet (was still waiting for the final judgement; as Duda said himself, the President "relieved the court"). And if he was pardoned after the conviction, he wouldn't be able to act as a minister like he currently does because even though pardoned, he would still be a former convict.

The second meeting is about whether or not the current head of the Constitutional Court (Julia Przy&#322;&#281;bska) was legally appointed, since right before she was chosen for the post, the ruling party passed few bills that heavily helped her. One of those bills temporarily nominated her (specifically her) to act as the president of the CC in the time between the departure of the former president of the Constitution Court (prof. Rzepli&#324;ski) and the election of a new one. Previously the vice-president acted as the head of CC in such situation.

Thanks, but, I'm not sure how the bills can become law when both houses didn't pass the same text. Isn't that listed in your constitution, and the entire point of a bicameral legislature? Unless they shoved the conflicting bills to your rigged CC and let them sort it out, which would be a new low. Guess we'll see how deep they can dig.

I'm really sad to see what's happening there, Poland bros.

 

[KernelPanic]

It's disgusting that people who were there when Poland was under Communist rule would support this shit in any way.

I hope someone stops this somehow.....

 

[Mr_Zombie]

Thanks, but, I'm not sure how the bills can become law when both houses didn't pass the same text. Isn't that listed in your constitution, and the entire point of a bicameral legislature? Unless they shoved the conflicting bills to your rigged CC and let them sort it out, which would be a new low. Guess we'll see how deep they can dig.

The President can now either veto the bill or... you guessed it, pass it to the Constitutional Court. He surely can't sign it in its current state. But if the CC decides that the bill is actually OK (dunno if they can do that; maybe if they prove that the errors are minor or something?) then the bill will surely be signed, just a little later.

I'm really sad to see what's happening there, Poland bros.

Yeah, it's horrible. The former ruling party wasn't great either, but the current one showed everyone that the existing constitutional checks & balances are too weak, and with enough will (and good propaganda) you could pass everything, even when every lawyer / judge in the country shouts that it's unconstitutional. The party feeds on citizen's anger and fear and it's horrible to see how many people (even young and intelligent ones) actually believes them.

 

[Ben Ghazi]

Thanks, but, I'm not sure how the bills can become law when both houses didn't pass the same text. Isn't that listed in your constitution, and the entire point of a bicameral legislature? Unless they shoved the conflicting bills to your rigged CC and let them sort it out, which would be a new low. Guess we'll see how deep they can dig.

I'm really sad to see what's happening there, Poland bros.

They can and will become law because the Senate is all PiS, the Sejm is all PiS, and the only other entity than can sort this out is CC which is ALL PIS, there is ZERO way this bill doesn't get signed into law, and we can kiss our free elections goodbye, I only hope the EU will only suspend us and not kick us out.

 

[Ac30]

The President can now either veto the bill or... you guessed it, pass it to the Constitutional Court. He surely can't sign it in its current state. But if the CC decides that the bill is actually OK (dunno if they can do that; maybe if they prove that the errors are minor or something?) then the bill will surely be signed, just a little later.



Yeah, it's horrible. The former ruling party wasn't great either, but the current one showed everyone that the existing constitutional checks & balances are too weak, and with enough will (and good propaganda) you could pass everything, even when every lawyer / judge in the country shouts that it's unconstitutional. The party feeds on citizen's anger and fear and it's horrible to see how many people (even young and intelligent ones) actually believes them.

Kicking it to the CC would be bizarre since their job isn't to form policy, which they would be doing by picking a "correct" text, if I'm remembering my separation of powers right.

I still can't believe you guys got fucked by dumb luck because 2 parties didn't meet the threshold. Ugh.

They can and will become law because the Senate is all PiS, the Sejm is all PiS, and the only other entity than can sort this out is CC which is ALL PIS, there is ZERO way this bill doesn't get signed into law, and we can kiss our free elections goodbye, I only hope the EU will only suspend us and not kick us out.

The EU can't actually kick members out, I believe. Just suspend voting rights and/or sanction them. But that probably won't happen either because Orban is gonna stick up for PiS.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

I don't recall PRL media calling the opposition 'Soros financed pedophile supporters', and that's what the state media have been labeling the protesters.

Ah, I see Orban and Putin has their ears.

Evidence comes to hand so easily with these assholes, don't it?

 

[Ben Ghazi]

But that probably won't happen either because Orban is gonna stick up for PiS.

Yeah well he didn't when Kaczy&#324;ski wanted him to vote for Sariusz instead of Tusk, but you're probably right. That probably was just PiS being PiS, and Orban refusing to be THAT dense.

 

[jack_package_200]

SOROS!!!!!!

Keep fighting, Poland. Don't let your president turn your nation into an alt-righter's wet dream

 

[avaya]

It's turning out very clearly that a lot of these Eastern European country's should never have been allowed accession into the EU. In the end it was inevitable they would have to be otherwise they would drift back into the clutches of the Russians.

As for Orban, the fuckstick, I would imagine there is a solution to that fuckery by skewering both Hungary and Poland if necessary.

The treaties need to be amdended such that the transition into such fuckery automatically loses you veto rights and any sanctions post need only a supermajority amongst the council of ministers.

 

[iz.podpolja]

It's turning out very clearly that a lot of these Eastern European country's should never have been allowed accession into the EU. In the end it was inevitable they would have to be otherwise they would drift back into the clutches of the Russians.

As for Orban, the fuckstick, I would imagine there is a solution to that fuckery by skewering both Hungary and Poland if necessary.

The treaties need to be amdended such that the transition into such fuckery automatically loses you veto rights and any sanctions post need only a supermajority amongst the council of ministers.

"In the end it was inevitable" - I mean srsly, I am a pessimist, but predestination even to me seems a bit too much ))

BTW How would you make Polish & Hungarian governments sign amended treaties?
I mean sure there should be a mechanism that simply disables voting rights whenever Copenhagen criteria are not met by a country, but the mechanism is simply not there.

 

[gutter_trash]

Eastern Europe hates what they consider a " decadent " Western Europe so much that they chose to go full authoritarian. It's weird to see countries that have spent decades under a communist regime embrace religion and conservative ideas like this. It's even weirder when it's happening just a few years after their integration to the EU that they fought so hard for. It's basically " Please embrace us " just so that we could reject everything you stand for.

I understand why people in the East would be so afraid of radical islam when they see what's happening in France, the UK and Germany but still it's not enough to justify their rejection of democratic ideals.

I have seen this from two Armenian brothers who were former work collegues, their Facebook pages were full of Pro-Putin stuff slamming Western lifestyle.

The Elder unfriended me during the '16 campaign just because I was Pro Hillary

 

[avaya]

"In the end it was inevitable" - I mean srsly, I am a pessimist, but predestination even to me seems a bit too much ))

BTW How would you make Polish & Hungarian governments sign amended treaties?
I mean sure there should be a mechanism that simply disables voting rights whenever Copenhagen criteria are not met by a country, but the mechanism is simply not there.

After both Poland and Hungary are sanctioned to fuck and get new governments. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

 

[iz.podpolja]

After both Poland and Hungary are sanctioned to fuck and get new governments. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

So you're an optimist after all - cause if they pull off what they're doing now, chances are there will be no new government for quite a few years to come.

 

[Knurek]

Seems to be a pretty decent protest out tonight:

https://out.reddit.com/t3_6p3kec?ur...aN7zCwTHEi0uTLLl1XUNjN96GHas7&app_name=mweb2x

Let's hope Duda does the right thing (fat chance, I guess :/)

Ah, as our dear PiS PR (either TVP or Police PR) would say - few dozen SB widows making a public nuisance of themselves.

 

[Mr_Zombie]

And... all is probably lost. The "wrong version" of the bill that the Sejm passed to the Senate is probably correct. The difference is only because due to the applied fixes (the Sejm accepted few fixes, but only those from the ruling party; opposition's fixes were all voted out in a single vote because of reasons), some articles changed their numbers or positions, which is a standard procedure.

And the current president of the Constitutional Court already said that the changes proposed in the recent three bills regarding the judgement system don't affect the separation of power.

The President is supposed to give a speech today. I doubt he veto those bills (or at least the Supreme Court bill), but we will see. He will probably just spout more propaganda about "we're doing it for the poeple". :/


Edit: Breaking News!, the President just announced that he will veto two out of three proposed bills. I'm speechless. :O

 

[darkinstinct]

Duda just announced he will veto.

 

[Ac30]

And... all is probably lost. The "wrong version" of the bill that the Sejm passed to the Senate is probably correct. The difference is only because due to the applied fixes (the Sejm accepted few fixes, but only those from the ruling party; opposition's fixes were all voted out in a single vote because of reasons), some articles changed their numbers or positions, which is a standard procedure.

And the current president of the Constitutional Court already said that the changes proposed in the recent three bills regarding the judgement system don't affect the separation of power.

The President is supposed to give a speech today. I doubt he veto those bills (or at least the Supreme Court bill), but we will see. He will probably just spout more propaganda about "we're doing it for the poeple". :/


Edit: Breaking News!, the President just announced that he will veto two out of three proposed bills. I'm speechless. :O

Please tell me he vetoed the one covering the Supreme Court so they'll still be able to rule on the August cases with their current body?! Seems huge. What bill is he still signing?

Off-topic but I've always wanted to visit Poland, next year that + Czech Republic in one go, can't wait.

 

[Ben Ghazi]

Now we wait.

 

[Lucumo]

You gotta feel for the Polish people who are not responsible for this. Some months ago, I was on a train with some Irish dude and an elderly Polish lady (he and I were reading books) and she was talking about how she was able to read a lot of Western books when the country was opening up and how well Poland progressed over all these years...but needless to say, she was completely devastated with what is happening recently.

 

[samoscratch]

Very sad to read this, propaganda and corruption seems to have really taken hold around the world.

I wish the best for you guys.

 

[Ben Ghazi]

You gotta feel for the Polish people who are not responsible for this. Some months ago, I was on a train with some Irish dude and an elderly Polish lady (he and I were reading books) and she was talking about how she was able to read a lot of Western books when the country was opening up and how well Poland progressed over all these years...but needless to say, she was completely devastated with what is happening recently.

My grandma survived the WWII and was a miner during the PRL times and she has plenty of stories to tell. She also is dumbfounded about how this came to be.

 

[Jintor]

are you fucking kidding me? a bill to toss out the supreme court and replace them with executive-appointed candidates? that alone is reprehensible in anything even pretending to be a democracy

 

[YoungFa]

He didnt sign.