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[Earthstrike]

'Help us save nature by stopping a pipeline that will make it so we do less damage to nature.'

You're an idiot. For someone so "versed" in economics you would understand that the theoretical increase in price from a less practical distribution system would force alternative means of energy production to be brought to market quicker.

 

[Captin Quacker]

Well, they didn't realize this hunch of worthless dirt would suddenly become 'convenient' in the future.

Prolly thought it would make a great PR stunt

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Can we please focus on the Native Americans plight please?

Look, I get we need to decrease our oil use, but I'm sick and tired of environmentalists piggybacking off this oppression of Native Americans to further their own goals. Stopping this pipeline won't stop the oil drills or the oil economy in North Dakota. That needs to be solved on a bigger level.

I don't see piggybacking. Both issues are extremely important and in this case are intrinsically linked. The fact that it's an oil pipeline threatening the tribe land (and not, say, the construction of hospitals for sick children or something that could be argued as humanitarian or constructive) makes it all the more outrageous.

 

[Saucycarpdog]

I don't see piggybacking. Both issues are extremely important and in this case are intrinsically linked. The fact that it's an oil pipeline threatening the tribe land (and not, say, the construction of hospitals for sick children or something that could be argued as humanitarian or constructive) makes it all the more outrageous.

Tribal sovereignty and fossil fuels are two very different issues. If you can't see that, I really don't know what to say.

The tribe and environmentalists want two different things. The tribe wants the pipeline routed somewhere else where it won't violate tribal land or pollute their water. The environmentalists want the pipeline to not be completed at all.

How can the tribe argue for the pipeline to be rerouted when the environmentalists are arguing for the pipeline to be dismantled?

 

[Cow Mengde]

Tribal sovereignty and fossil fuels are two very different issues. If you can't see that, I really don't know what to say.

The tribe and environmentalists want two different things. The tribe wants the pipeline routed somewhere else where it won't violate tribal land or pollute their water. The environmentalists want the pipeline to not be completed at all.

How can the tribe argue for the pipeline to be rerouted when the environmentalists are arguing for the pipeline to be dismantled?

And the tribe can't be environmentalists because?

These people used to/still depend on nature for their survival.

 

[ElectricThunder]

Yep, curious how each step of this seems to keep trying to come up with (yet more of) a forced negative pairing/association or imagined link to take away the agency the people out there risking their lives rather directly and legitimacy of the stakes of the situation. Hmm...

This is one of those times where a lens to a time machine of Folks Commenting would've been illuminating not unlike Tuskegee/Miss Evers Lodge, Black Wall Street, etc---though even then only somewhat as the Natives on the whole have been on the end of more brutally effective things in an absolute sense swept under the rug of history.

FFS, the tribe has no AGENCY with the energy concern----I'm sure they'd love for the damned thing to not be built outright, but given the corner they've been hemmed into rather pointedly, the best they can hope for is direct preservation of what little is them and their own. The environmentalists have a better shot at that bigger fight by virtue of people and resources and not being quite as Other or easily Otherized by the business idiots. This is like that offhand remark somewhere earlier about the Doubt of their "Civil Rights" being violated---right, because clearly every effort has been made to have them welcome in full on civil society and not largely sequestered to stagnate and be ripe for additional exploitation...oh wait...

 

[Saucycarpdog]

And the tribe can't be environmentalists because?

So you're saying the tribe should change its goal from rerouting the pipeline to halting the pipeline entirely?

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

All I ask is that for the people who just found out about these state violence situations with Natives, please keep tabs on it and do what you can to support.

Don't expect the media or your government to, force them to however you can. Make this an issue.

 

[Lime]

Hilary Clintons statement about this situation versus her statement on the fire attacks against NC GOP offices is so incredibly frustrating.

 

[darkace]

You're an idiot. For someone so "versed" in economics you would understand that the theoretical increase in price from a less practical distribution system would force alternative means of energy production to be brought to market quicker.

There wouldn't be any impact from this pipeline on oil prices. The only impact would be lessening the environmental impact from transporting the oil.

http://www.ecowatch.com/pipeline-spills-2061960029.html

"220 'Significant' Pipeline Spills Already This Year Exposes Troubling Safety Record"

"Three major U.S. pipeline spills within the last month are just a small part of the 220 significant incidents reported so far this year—and 3,032 since 2006"

Almost all of these spills are as a result of corrosion from age and incorrect welding procedures as they were put in during the post WW2 mining boom. The chance of this pipeline failing in the next few decades and putting out a significant toxic load is basically nonexistent.

Don't bother listening to him. He thinks fracking is perfectly fine and ok for the environment too.

But it is? Seriously I don't understand why so many people don't look at the facts surrounding these areas. Fracking is way better than the alternative.

 

[Wafflecakes]

Hilary Clintons statement about this situation versus her statement on the fire attacks against NC GOP offices is so incredibly frustrating.

I want to understand this comparison...

How is someone vandalizing a campaign office for political reasons (probably) the same as people protesting a construction project they don't agree with on private property?

 

[SuperBanana]

You're an idiot. For someone so "versed" in economics you would understand that the theoretical increase in price from a less practical distribution system would force alternative means of energy production to be brought to market quicker.

Don't bother listening to him. He thinks fracking is perfectly fine and ok for the environment too.

 

[nelsonroyale]

There wouldn't be any impact from this pipeline on oil prices. The only impact would be lessening the environmental impact from transporting the oil.



Almost all of these spills are as a result of corrosion from age and incorrect welding procedures as they were put in during the post WW2 mining boom. The chance of this pipeline failing in the next few decades and putting out a significant toxic load is basically nonexistent.



But it is? Seriously I don't understand why so many people don't look at the facts surrounding these areas. Fracking is way better than the alternative.

There is only an alternative to fracking? Nice to live in a world where all options are binary. I mean there are greener alternatives, but they require substantially reducing consumption/wastage and a far bigger commitment to renewables. That is a better solution going forward.

Wafflecakes: It isn't a like for like comparison. I would say the latter is a far more serious issue, in social and ecological terms, than the former however. Clinton's response to this has been probably true to form however. Whoever said he is lucky she is running against Trump was spot on.

 

[darkace]

There is only an alternative to fracking? Nice to live in a world where all options are binary. I mean there are greener alternatives, but they require substantially reducing consumption/wastage and a far bigger commitment to renewables. That is a better solution going forward.

Green solutions don't make economic sense without a carbon tax.

 

[Sunster]

There wouldn't be any impact from this pipeline on oil prices. The only impact would be lessening the environmental impact from transporting the oil.



Almost all of these spills are as a result of corrosion from age and incorrect welding procedures as they were put in during the post WW2 mining boom. The chance of this pipeline failing in the next few decades and putting out a significant toxic load is basically nonexistent.



But it is? Seriously I don't understand why so many people don't look at the facts surrounding these areas. Fracking is way better than the alternative.

You really poured over the data for each of those 3000 spills? and how is it basically non existent?

 

[darkace]

You really poured over the data for each of those 3000 spills? and how is it basically non existent?

Na I read a few articles from people who had. For instance one contractor had 225 spills of which 170 were caused by corrosion and improper welding. Neither of which will be an issue for this pipeline in the near future.

 

[Media]

Na I read a few articles from people who had. For instance one contractor had 225 spills of which 170 were caused by corrosion and improper welding. Neither of which will be an issue for this pipeline in the near future.

You know for a fact all the welding will be perfect when it isn't even completed yet huh?

 

[darkace]

You know for a fact all the welding will be perfect when it isn't even completed yet huh?

Unless the company is going to use welding techniques last seen in the 60's it's hard to see how the welding will be problematic.

 

[hokagespit]

Na I read a few articles from people who had. For instance one contractor had 225 spills of which 170 were caused by corrosion and improper welding. Neither of which will be an issue for this pipeline in the near future.

http://www.livescience.com/49326-fracking-caused-ohio-earthquakes.html

what happens when earthquakes caused by this industry cause damage to these pipleines?

 

[Sunster]

http://www.livescience.com/49326-fracking-caused-ohio-earthquakes.html

what happens when earthquakes caused by this industry cause damage to these pipleines?

They are earthquake proof, lava proof, explosion proof and human error proof. Literally nothing could cause them to leak. They are the perfect pipes. So let's build them under a major water supply.

Either the pipeline get's built and the Sioux are rewarded with some "economic boom" that they will probably never see and a few 1000 temporary construction jobs. Or, the pipe bursts, contaminates their drinking water and the scrap of land they have left of their home of 1000's of years is destroyed. Totally worth it.

 

[darkace]

http://www.livescience.com/49326-fracking-caused-ohio-earthquakes.html

what happens when earthquakes caused by this industry cause damage to these pipleines?

North Dakota doesn't see earthquakes from fracking.

They are earthquake proof, lava proof, explosion proof and human error proof. Literally nothing could cause them to leak. They are the perfect pipes. So let's build them under a major water supply.

If environmental warriors wonder why people never take them seriously, things like this is why.

 

[TheSeks]

Because they were stalling a pipeline for no good reason.

The Bakken supplies about ten percent of the oil in this country and we currently truck or freight it down to Illinois, which is wasteful. The pipeline was being built to make that more efficient.

Pipeline bursts, it's the same situation as the train or boats/freighters that transport it. Instead of being "GOOD @ EVICTING THEM" you should be holding the government accountable on weaning the nation off fossil fuels AND getting engineers on solving the energy crisis.

 

[Sunster]

North Dakota doesn't see earthquakes from fracking.



If environmental warriors wonder why people never take them seriously, things like this is why.

and continuing to build bullshit pipelines is why we are fucked.

 

[darkace]

and continuing to build bullshit pipelines is why we are fucked.

I get the feeling you don't understand how the industry works at all or the current situation and any non-renewable infrastructure building at all would be terrible.

 

[Sunster]

I get the feeling you don't understand how the industry works at all or the current situation and any non-renewable infrastructure building at all would be terrible.

I know enough to understand that building a pipeline filled with oil next to a reservation underneath that reservation's water supply is an absolute shit thing to do. I know that fighting for this pipeline is a shit thing to do when it is not your job. I know dismissing the plight of 1000's of protesters who will be directly impacted by this pipeline is a shit thing to do. I am not an armchair expert on oil pipelines, no. But I do know this construction process is fucked. there is an alternative out there, no doubt at a higher cost to the oil company, but an alternative that is worth it.

 

[FUBAR McDangles]

Bullshit like this is ruining everything for everybody.

There are people there with legitimate concerns and there are people there just to incite violence. Dead cows, horses, and other livestock in the area over the last month, videos with a bunch of jackasses in Anon masks, and then people starting fires for no reason.

As someone who lives in North Dakota and works for a police department that currently is at its limits with 30% of our officers out there working 12 hour shifts, I just want this shit done with.

Dumbasses ruining things not only stretches things out but increase tensions and make it harder and harder for things to peacefully end.

I fully expect people to be dying soon. It's going to happen and it's going to be an even bigger shitshow than it already is and it is going to ruin any legitimacy left from either side by the end of it.

This just needs to be over with.

 

[darkace]

I know enough to understand that building a pipeline filled with oil next to a reservation underneath that reservation's water supply is an absolute shit thing to do.

So what's the difference between this pipeline and all the other ones that already do the exact same thing? Is there evidence to suggest that this one will have untoward negative environmental impacts beyond what we've seen with others? There are currently eight pipelines crossing the Missouri river, are they problematic?

 

[Sunster]

So what's the difference between this pipeline and all the other ones that already do the exact same thing? Is there evidence to suggest that this one will have untoward negative environmental impacts beyond what we've seen with others? There are currently eight pipelines crossing the Missouri river, are they problematic?

This is the one that got national attention because of the fact that the community living where it will be built does not want it. That's the difference.

 

[darkace]

This is the one that got national attention because of the fact that the community living where it will be built does not want it. That's the difference.

But every member of the community signed voluntary easements allowing the pipeline to be built. Why would they have done that if they didn't want it?

 

[Sunster]

But every member of the community signed voluntary easements allowing the pipeline to be built. Why would they have done that if they didn't want it?

"Voluntary easements don't mean pipeline support"

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/st...asements-dont-mean-pipeline-support/75473886/

"About two thirds of farmland owners on the proposed path of the Bakken Pipeline have voluntarily signed easements with the pipeline builder, Dakota Access, LLC. From this, it might appear that most farm owners welcome this project. In fact, the two-thirds rate actually suggests overwhelming opposition."

And not to mention the Sioux who are obviously opposed.

 

[darkace]

"Voluntary easements don't mean pipeline support"

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/st...asements-dont-mean-pipeline-support/75473886/

"About two thirds of farmland owners on the proposed path of the Bakken Pipeline have voluntarily signed easements with the pipeline builder, Dakota Access, LLC. From this, it might appear that most farm owners welcome this project. In fact, the two-thirds rate actually suggests overwhelming opposition."

And not to mention the Sioux who are obviously opposed.

Wow yes a source from a protester who holds that a majority signing in favour indicates overwhelming opposition. That's super believable.

This is essentially just NIMBYism that the left has signed onto because it's a minority fighting big bad corporations.

 

[M3d10n]

Pipelines never leak, heh?

https://weather.com/news/news/pipeline-oil-spill-canada-drinking-water-saskatchewan

 

[Sunster]

Wow yes a source from a protester who holds that a majority signing in favour indicates overwhelming opposition. That's super believable.

This is essentially just NIMBYism that the left has signed onto because it's a minority fighting big bad corporations.

Less believable than you saying 100% of people signed easements and supported the pipeline? From that 1 article we know that isn't true. And I find 1 protester who actually lives there more believable than you. No amount of information will change your mind, you made it before reading 1 word about the protest.

 

[darkace]

Less believable than you saying 100% of people signed easements and supported the pipeline? From that 1 article we know that isn't true. And I find 1 protester who actually lives there more believable than you. No amount of information will change your mind, you made it before reading 1 word about the protest.

Probably because I'm sick of people fighting shit they don't understand. And 100% didn't sign on, I think I was talking about a specific community that I forgot to clarify.

That said, the shrill vocal minority fighting progress without having undertaken their basic civic duty in the first place is ridiculous. The Standing Rock Sioux did not submit a public comment on the pipeline, did not submit written testimony in opposition to the pipeline, and refused meetings with the Dakota Access pipeline committee a half dozen times.

If you don't take part in the civic process then you abide by the outcome, regardless of what you think you're due. I also don't think anyone has submitted evidence that the pipeline is traversing through culturally significant ground, while the likelihood of environmental damage is far lower than the alternatives: http://www.manhattan-institute.org/pdf/ib_23.pdf

This is, in simple terms, a ridiculous protest that has no moral backing.

 

[bishopcruz]

It's not just the cost of oil that can be problematic when shipping by rail.

It's also a matter of capacity loss for other goods. For example shipping prices have gone up for grain, which will cause food to be more expensive over time. Pipelines ease the capacity issues that rail is facing right now, and you have to take that into account. Are people willing to have additional train tracks through their land.

It's a cost benefit analysis, every form of transportation has its own risks, and it's about deciding what is best for any particular situation.

 

[hokagespit]

its only a temporary fix though, thats the point, risking endangering water supplies digging up ancient burial sites. we should be moving away from fossil fuels, money spent on this should be moved to renewable energy, where even more jobs would be created.

what are you guys oil tycoons?

 

[pr0cs]

what are you guys oil tycoons?

No, realists that understand that for the foreseeable future we have a high demand for petroleum and that pipelines are the safest most cost effective means of getting the product to market. That the benefits of having oil produced and shipped from our continent is good for jobs unlike importing it which is the alternative.

This notion of "move away from fossil fuels" us all fine and dandy on paper but anyone with a clue knows it's not realistic at all yet

 

[Media]

No, realists that understand that for the foreseeable future we have a high demand for petroleum and that pipelines are the safest most cost effective means of getting the product to market. That the benefits of having oil produced and shipped from our continent is good for jobs unlike importing it which is the alternative.

This notion of "move away from fossil fuels" us all fine and dandy on paper but anyone with a clue knows it's not realistic at all yet

I mean, it's so safe they moved it away from Bismark because they were worried about the water supply? But fuck natives apparently.

Pipes got to go somewhere so why not where most people won't care?

 

[pr0cs]

Pipes got to go somewhere so why not where most people won't care?

So they weren't given ample opportunity to express their concerns well before this protest? First I heard.

 

[Media]

So they weren't given ample opportunity to express their concerns well before this protest? First I heard.

In my experience, these things work like this:

Hey, we are going to build this shit on treaty land, you can like it or not, it's going to happen. Do you have any concerns?

Yes, we don't want it built.

Well it's your fault for not working with us. Oh well.

 

[bootsthecat]

I read this article this morning; interesting how split the native community in question is, in regards to the protests.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/29/us/dakota-pipeline-standing-rock-sioux/index.html

 

[hokagespit]

In my experience, these things work like this:

Hey, we are going to build this shit on treaty land, you can like it or not, it's going to happen. Do you have any concerns?

Yes, we don't want it built.

Well it's your fault for not working with us. Oh well.

exactly, i attended the last meeting about new fracking sites in my area and as soon as everyone opened their mouths they were asked to provide payed studies showing potential environmental impacts. its not a matter of saying no we dont want this

 

[ColdLasagna]

What are you basing this on?

Just going back a few years and highlighting only a couple.
(more info can be gathered from http://www.phmsa.dot.gov/pipeline/library/data-stats/pipelineincidenttrends)



2010 (September 9) At 6:11 PM, a PG&E 30-inch natural gas line exploded in San Bruno, California, killing 8. Eyewitnesses reported the initial blast "had a wall of fire more than 1,000 feet high".[46]
2010 (July 25) Crude oil pipeline ruptures near Marshall, Michigan, spilling over 840,000 gallons of oil into the Kalamazoo River [47][48]
2012 (12 December) a 20-inch transmission line owned by NiSource Inc., parent of Columbia Gas, exploded, leveling 4 houses, between Sissonville and Pocatalico in Kanawha County, West Virginia (WV). When it blew, nobody at pipeline operator, Columbia Gas Transmission knew it. An 800' section of I-77 was obliterated.[49][50] "The fire melted the interstate and it looked like lava, just boiling." Later the West Virginia Public Service Commission released several pages of violations by Columbia Gas.[51] Forty families were "impacted" by the explosion.[52][53] The investigation cited "corrosion" as the cause of the blast.[49][54]
2013 (29 March) ExxonMobil pipeline carrying Canadian Wabasca heavy crude from the Athabasca oil sands ruptured in Mayflower, Arkansas, about 25 miles northwest of Little Rock. Approximately 12,000 barrels (1,900 m3) of oil mixed with water had been recovered by March 31. Twenty-two homes were evacuated.[1] The United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) classified the leak as a major spill. A reported 5,000−7,000 barrels of crude were released.[55]
2013 (20 August) Explosion of a natural gas pipeline near Kiowa southwest of Oklahoma City [56]
2013 (8 October) Explosion of a natural gas pipeline near Rosston, Oklahoma.[57]
2014 (Jan 25) A Trans Canada pipeline about 15 miles south of Winnipeg ruptured and exploded. The incident prompted the precautionary closure of two nearby pipelines. The pipelines supply the main source of natural gas to more than 100,000 Xcel Energy customers in eastern North Dakota, northwestern Minnesota and western Wisconsin.[58] The explosion happened near Otterburne, Manitoba, about 15 miles south of the provincial capital, Winnipeg. The area was evacuated as a precaution. No injuries were reported but the fire burned for more than 12 hours.[59]
2014 (Feb) In Knifely, Adair County, Kentucky, a Columbia Gulf gas pipeline exploded at 1 a.m. flattening homes, burning barns, and causing one casualty. The 30-inch natural gas pipeline was about 100 feet from Highway 76 and buried 30 feet underground. When it exploded, large rocks and sections of pipeline flew into the air, leaving a 60-foot crater. Columbia Gulf, part of NiSource’s Columbia Pipeline Group, owns and operates more than 15,700 miles of natural gas pipelines, one of the largest underground storage systems in North America. The pipeline that exploded was carrying natural gas from the Gulf of Mexico to New York.[60]
2014 (Feb 11) A Hiland gas pipeline exploded about six miles south of Tioga, North Dakota. Hiland was "blowing" hydrates, ice-like solids formed from a mixture of water and gas that can block pipeline flow, out of the pipeline.[61]
2014 (Mar 14) A Northern Natural Gas Company pipeline erupted near the intersection of county roads 20 and O, about six miles north of Fremont, Nebraska. A company spokesman said, "In the summer you can tell if you've got a gas leak by vegetation, sometimes it dies in the ground."[62]
2014 (May 26) A Viking gas pipeline explosion near Warren, Minnesota was "hell on earth," shaking the ground and shooting a fireball over 100 feet in the air. Roads within a two-mile radius were blocked off. Authorities suspected natural causes because there was still frost in the ground and the soil was wet.[58][63]

 

[bishopcruz]

I read this article this morning; interesting how split the native community in question is, in regards to the protests.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/29/us/dakota-pipeline-standing-rock-sioux/index.html

I read that article too, it's eye opening. I really looks like the town on Cannonball is getting completely screwed over by the road closures if nothing else. Hopefully things will go better for them now that they've removed some of the barricades. I think one of the bridges is still shut down though.

I mean, it's so safe they moved it away from Bismark because they were worried about the water supply? But fuck natives apparently.

Pipes got to go somewhere so why not where most people won't care?

From my understanding, Bismarck also has pipelines running though, or near it, we have a HUGE number of pipelines in the US that no one really knows about. And it's still not enough, sadly.

As for your second comment, well yes, that's how it works. You will try to minimize the number of people who could possibly be affected by the pipeline. It's also one of the reasons that you want as short a route as possible, the shorter the pipeline the less chances there are for something to go wrong.

And it's not just natives, the Feds and States have a long and storied tradition of screwing people out of their land, or making it untenable.

 

[darkace]

its only a temporary fix though, thats the point, risking endangering water supplies digging up ancient burial sites. we should be moving away from fossil fuels, money spent on this should be moved to renewable energy, where even more jobs would be created.

what are you guys oil tycoons?

It's safer than the alternatives, and there's no evidence it actually digs up ancient burial sites.

 

[gutter_trash]

Obama is stalling to see the Election through,
I hope that he uses executive order after November 9th to do something about it.

 

[ant_]

The amount of posts in here with a lack of understanding of pipelines and the issue as whole is staggering (the Standing Rock ignoring many requests for meetings, never partaking in the process, over 140 adjustments were made to account for other tribes that DID attend the meetings, for example)

The pipeline is the best way to transport this oil. It's safer, will do less harm to the environment, and will help give us oil independence as we can transfer much more oil from the Dakotas. The route doesn't even cross the Standing Rock reservation.

I recommend you read the court documents. Primary sources are always the best for having a good, objective understanding of the issue.

https://ecf.dcd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_public_doc?2016cv1534-39

 

[Jackpot]

Who looks at this pic and thinks "We're the good guys!"

Wouldn't be out of place in a Hunger Games movie.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Love the one cop aiming the grenade launcher (obviously gas) point blank at protester. That would cause serious injury at that range.

 

[Sunster]

for clarification