-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
PoliGAF 2011: Of Weiners, Boehners, Santorum, and Teabags
- Thread starter PantherLotus
- Start date
- Status
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
Clevinger said:
All of this is carefully calculated by the Republicans. What's the past is the past to them. They will try whatever they can to make Obama a one-term president.
PhoenixDark
Banned
They're running out of time to pass a bill in the senate, go to conference, pass the bill in the house, have it scored by the CBO etc etc. I'm starting to wonder whether this is really just an attempt to push any deal past Obama's deadline, and possibly make him change his mind on the month extension idea he has ruled out. It's all about politics and humiliating the president.
I really wish we'd see a ramp up of Obama at least preparing to go the constitutional route. There's no doubt congress will raise it eventually, but we're getting to a point where this game is beginning to hurt the economy/markets.
I really wish we'd see a ramp up of Obama at least preparing to go the constitutional route. There's no doubt congress will raise it eventually, but we're getting to a point where this game is beginning to hurt the economy/markets.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
polyh3dron said:
She understands her point of view even if she doesn't agree with it. She doesn't hold it against my wife. The same goes for my in laws who are pastors. They love my wife's friend like she was their own daughter.
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
slit said:
What happened to Cenk?
I don't think you read my post right, or even thought about it for a second. The problem is not the debt ceiling. It's that the GOP is throwing such a fit about it, playing chicken with a fragile economy, and companies are having to build contingency plans or safety nets because of it.Kosmo said:
To repeat: the problem is the GOP holding the debt ceiling hostage. That is having real and tangible consequences. The announcement that the hostage taking has ended would be a good thing. As has been demonstrated, what they are doing is unprecedented. And frankly, stupid.
How many jobs bills since taking the House has the GOP offered?
TacticalFox88
Banned
Damn. I loved Cenk. He was awesome.slit said:
aronnov reborn
Banned
Tamanon said:
Why not? they're non-profit and most give a ton back to the community either directly or through charity.
that evil church earned money to buy the Johnson's groceries.. tax them!
TacticalFox88
Banned
How about this. If the church stays out of politics, then they don't get taxed. If they do, they get taxed at a certain rate depending on how large it is.aronnov reborn said:
aronnov reborn
Banned
TacticalFox88 said:
I'm fine with that. but are they not all already out of politics? other then voicing their opinion?
Or do you mean just dont speak out publicly?
PhoenixDark
Banned
gcubed said:
By cutting abortions now, the GOP is increasing the work force in the future.
empty vessel
Member
Kosmo said:
If you are asking who caused the budget shortfalls that require borrowing, we already know the answer: Republicans and Wall Street. The means were tax cuts, wars, deregulation, and criminal fraud that crashed the economy. This isn't controversial or even debatable. Democrats are of course complicit in helping Republicans serve Wall Street and the top 1% of income earners.
speculawyer
Member
So unemployment will be higher. Awesome.PhoenixDark said:
aronnov reborn
Banned
Clevinger said:
fair enough. i agree with that. most pastor's do this for a full time job and should be taxed as regular income.
Broad statements like those are missing the whole point of taxation, I think intentionally.Kosmo said:
The government is not meant to a be more efficient way to spend a single dollar.
It's meant to have a bigger pool of money than smaller organizations, thus allowing it to do things that a small body like a church can't do like fight the Nazis or put a man on the moon.
That being said, I don't see an urgent reason to change the tax exempt status of religious establishments.
We just need to take a bit more care that they don't break the law.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
I know this is a few pages back, but c'mon, I didn't name the fucking generations.
It looks like I confused the millenials with the as-yet unnamed chubby kids that are wheezing past me at Target.
On another note, I'm guessing that when we measure the accomplishments and tragedies of a generation, we're not just talking about the political leaders that grew out of that. For example, I don't think anyone other than Brokaw is arguing that the 'greatest' generation was LITERALLY THE BEST GROUP OF PEOPLE BORN AT ALL TIME, nor would anyone argue that they were flawless.*
However, I'd be willing to argue that the generation that survived the great depression and willingly fought in WWII was a considerably "better" group of people than the Baby Boom. I dunno, I'm pretty pissed off at them for their Tea Party antics and for 8 years of Bush, especially after their supposed espoused beliefs coming out of the Civil Rights movement and the free-wheelin' 70s drug scene.
So if you want to say 'The Great Generation' wasn't so great because of Vietnam and because of some extremely ugly CIA ops and for its oppressive nature, I'd totally agree. They fucked up a lot of shit. Tons, even.
In the same breath I'd argue that the Baby Boom might single-handedly (if 78 million can be lumped together, I mean) bring down our country. Other than my own parents (and sometimes even them), I really can't fucking stand them. They're old, cranky losers that had the world handed to them, shirked their duties, had a bright moment when they fought for equal rights, then washed it all away for the excesses of the 80s and have essentially driven this country to the brink of ruin.**
I'm sure Gen X will do their part to fuck it up, but they (we? born in '79 here) will be the ones forced to clean up the mess their forebears left them. And you'd better believe we're pissed off. I'm part Gen Y too, I guess. And I think we're special!
*this kinda goes back to the long-scope view of history, political calculus, and heroes we were talking about with Lincoln and Obama earlier, doesn't it?
**"the brink of ruin" is what people who don't yet acknowledge our country is already fucked call it
It looks like I confused the millenials with the as-yet unnamed chubby kids that are wheezing past me at Target.
On another note, I'm guessing that when we measure the accomplishments and tragedies of a generation, we're not just talking about the political leaders that grew out of that. For example, I don't think anyone other than Brokaw is arguing that the 'greatest' generation was LITERALLY THE BEST GROUP OF PEOPLE BORN AT ALL TIME, nor would anyone argue that they were flawless.*
However, I'd be willing to argue that the generation that survived the great depression and willingly fought in WWII was a considerably "better" group of people than the Baby Boom. I dunno, I'm pretty pissed off at them for their Tea Party antics and for 8 years of Bush, especially after their supposed espoused beliefs coming out of the Civil Rights movement and the free-wheelin' 70s drug scene.
So if you want to say 'The Great Generation' wasn't so great because of Vietnam and because of some extremely ugly CIA ops and for its oppressive nature, I'd totally agree. They fucked up a lot of shit. Tons, even.
In the same breath I'd argue that the Baby Boom might single-handedly (if 78 million can be lumped together, I mean) bring down our country. Other than my own parents (and sometimes even them), I really can't fucking stand them. They're old, cranky losers that had the world handed to them, shirked their duties, had a bright moment when they fought for equal rights, then washed it all away for the excesses of the 80s and have essentially driven this country to the brink of ruin.**
I'm sure Gen X will do their part to fuck it up, but they (we? born in '79 here) will be the ones forced to clean up the mess their forebears left them. And you'd better believe we're pissed off. I'm part Gen Y too, I guess. And I think we're special!
*this kinda goes back to the long-scope view of history, political calculus, and heroes we were talking about with Lincoln and Obama earlier, doesn't it?
**"the brink of ruin" is what people who don't yet acknowledge our country is already fucked call it
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
RE: Cenk
I like his somewhat "man he must really not be bought and paid for yet the way he keeps going after everyone" appeal, but I was never a huge fan. He never seemed particularly polished and his presentation always felt a touch off. I don't know how to describe him other than thinking about him a teenage girl that rolls his eyes a lot and huff-puffs when he gets exasperated. W/e.
In any case, I can't imagine what he was thinking by refusing a time slot move. Where else does he think he's going to go? A year ago he was doing public access youtube videos, right? What's he going to do, join Olbermann? I think he was foolish, but maybe he has another offer out there.
RE: Al Sharpton
Agreed that he can interview, and he knows his shit -- but that man needs a freaking anchor. It's so painful watching him stumble through every single intro/outro on the prompter. Get him his very own Mika like Joe has in the mornings and call it a day. It could be really outstanding if they do it right.
I like his somewhat "man he must really not be bought and paid for yet the way he keeps going after everyone" appeal, but I was never a huge fan. He never seemed particularly polished and his presentation always felt a touch off. I don't know how to describe him other than thinking about him a teenage girl that rolls his eyes a lot and huff-puffs when he gets exasperated. W/e.
In any case, I can't imagine what he was thinking by refusing a time slot move. Where else does he think he's going to go? A year ago he was doing public access youtube videos, right? What's he going to do, join Olbermann? I think he was foolish, but maybe he has another offer out there.
RE: Al Sharpton
Agreed that he can interview, and he knows his shit -- but that man needs a freaking anchor. It's so painful watching him stumble through every single intro/outro on the prompter. Get him his very own Mika like Joe has in the mornings and call it a day. It could be really outstanding if they do it right.
PantherLotus said:
I think more and more people are realizing that we're fucked no matter what. It's refreshing, but at the same time, sheeple spending their money freely is a part of what has kept things humming; there's no coincidence that Bush told people to "go shopping" after 9/11 for the good of the country.
I have zero faith that Gen X or Y or Whatever is going to suddenly come to their senses and begin operating differently; they're going to keep on living how they want to until they physically and economically are forced to change, and they aren't going to take it well.
The Boomers talked a good game when they were young, but all it took was a politician promising them the world at a low, low price - a deal too good to be true - and they jumped at it. The other politician telling them to grow-up, sacrifice, and act responsibly? Kicked to the curb.
As time goes by, it seems like George Carlin has nailed it: "The people suck."
==
re: sharpton. You nailed it.. dude needs an anchor, and his show would be fine. I do love when he gets sarcastic with hostile guests.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Chichikov said:
lol.
Cenk had a lot passion, but he was a pretty reasonable commentator. He has a pretty good track record on predicting outcomes, and does a great job explaining complicated things. He's a smarter, less cheerlerdy version of Ed.
Agreed on the decision to refuse the time slot. Don't know what he was thinking, even though I love his podcast.
LovingSteam said:
Which reminds me, I was watching this video that was posted here a good while back already:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/06/22/987447/-Bernie-Sanders-and-Al-Franken-CLOWN-Rand-Paul
I honestly can't get over how awesome that video is. I mean, here you have two of the coolest guys in the senate, Sanders and Franken, humiliating one of the dumbest fucking human beings ever elected to higher office. Something about that team just screams "kickass".
I never liked that exchange all that much.Oblivion said:
I think it's a mistake to engage that type of conversation on the fiscal level.
We're the richest country in the history of the world, we should not have old people going hungry.
We really shouldn't.
Even if it ends up costing us money.
ViperVisor
Member
Yep. Why I spent like 20 min doing the screen grabs and captions.Oblivion said:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=28798807&postcount=1524
PantherLotus said:
The problem with this is that it was the "greatest" generation who started virtually all the trends that we're seeing ruin the country. The first Boomer President was Bill Clinton. The second was Shrub. Obama's only our third (and he straddles the line, being born in '61). And the Boomers have only recently joined the ranks of seniors, who were even more reactionary before they got there.
As a member of Generation X, you'll just have to believe me that I've been hating on the Boomers far longer than most. The biggest difference I see is that only one of them decided they were so fucking amazing that they'd call themselves the "greatest" generation. Sure, Brokaw did it first, but they lapped that shit up.
And they tend to forget that they weren't the only ones who went to war for this country. So did a generation of young Boomers. Except their war was utterly unnecessary, and when they came home they were treated like mental defectives and criminals. And the "greatest" generation frequently shat on them for losing Vietnam. But, of course, it was members of the "greatest" generation that got us into the war, kept us there, and treated the Boomers as canon fodder. I imagine that might color one's views of government.
And because politicians are required to be older than the general populace, most of the stuff people blame on the Boomers was actually done by the generation who came before them. The "greatest" generation still holds considerable power on the hill, and they're reluctant to give it up.
Are the Tea Party idiots? Yes. Are they synonymous with the Boomers? No. They include plenty of folk from my generation and the GG. I don't think they're necessarily worse than any other generation, but they aren't much better, either. They raised the Boomers and created the frivolous consumer culture the Boomers grew up in, beat the Boomers with sticks when they dared to complain about it and being sent off to a stupid war, and then spent the rest of their life denigrating Boomers while deifying themselves.
And the biggest problem with the Boomers is their sheer scale, which is the fault of the GG, not them. The GG came back from the war and bred without considering the consequences, and then spent the next fifty years dismantling the systems that would keep the country going. It's hard to blame the Boomers, when virtually all of these problems are a decade older than their rise to political power. Are some Boomers obnoxious douchebags? Have many of them succumbed to "I got mine, jack" philosophies? Yep. But they learned them at the feet of the guys who originally decided to starve the beast and wreck the country for their personal gain, which is the GG.
As an aside, I'd like to point out that the largest block of the Tea Party, according to polls, are actually members of my generation, not the Boomers. Nearly 60 percent of the people that define themselves as Tea Partiers are between 30 and 64 (which includes some Boomers, but is heavy in my kind). Only 21 percent are over 65, and 16 percent are under 30. Every generation has to take some of the blame for that particular crazy. Especially mine, who mostly feel like they've spent their lives being ignored by government because they're bookended by the two biggest generations America ever produced.
I don't blame you for the nomenclature, by the way. I was really responding to the idea of them, not your presentation.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
Love that post, Besada. You spent a lot of time saying "generational lines are blurred, as are political groups," but I get your point. And well taken, particularly the part about the GGs still largely/somewhat being in power.
I do think you overlooked my point about generations being more than their political accomplishments, but I'm not sure it's that big of a point. I was using that to draw a distinction between "they got us in Vietnam" to "they fought WWII."
FWIW, my dad was a Green Beret in Vietnam. I'd say I know how dark America's worst moments have been, but I'd be lying. He won't tell me.
I do think you overlooked my point about generations being more than their political accomplishments, but I'm not sure it's that big of a point. I was using that to draw a distinction between "they got us in Vietnam" to "they fought WWII."
FWIW, my dad was a Green Beret in Vietnam. I'd say I know how dark America's worst moments have been, but I'd be lying. He won't tell me.
PantherLotus said:
I've had the misfortune to spend a fair amount of time at veteran's bars, so I got to see first hand how some of the GG treated the boys back from 'Nam. My father was too old to be taken, and went to the National Guard instead. The same guys who came home to hero's welcomes and government handouts spent their political power trying to take many of those things away from people, and that's always stuck in my craw.
Vietnam was an international tragedy, but it was borne, one way or another, almost entirely on the backs of the Boomers (and, of course, the Vietnamese, Cambodians, Laotians, etc.) From the men and women who fought against it and got beaten and reviled for their courage, to the more than 200,000 young men who were wounded or killed in a place we never should have been. I've had the honor of knowing quite a few Vietnam vets, and to a man they've felt betrayed by their country, for good reason. Like the GG, many of them rose to the challenge given to them by their elders, but unlike the GG, they never received the recognition they deserved. The GG threw away their lives and their bodies on paranoia, and then blamed them when the inevitable happened.
I also know plenty of folk from the GG, including my parents, who were both born before the war. There are plenty of good men and women, there, and the best of them are as embarrassed by their generational name as they should be. Mostly, I think Brokaw's a fawning twat.
Oh, and the 80's. Keep in mind that the oldest Boomer was 35 in 1980, just barely old enough to get into serious office. The Congress, the Senate, the courts, and the Executive were run by the GG up until the 90's.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
I will say if there was a single good thing that came out of 9/11, it's that suddenly America loved her veterans again, of which my dad is still reluctantly proud. Anyway, he's finally getting disability for total hearing loss and, TMI ZONE, seriously debilitating PTSD.
Problem for Green Berets is that so many of them were stationed in "Korea" during that period and their records have mysteriously little evidence of what would cause debilitating injury/stress. It's been a lifetime of embarrassment (and nightmares, shocking temper, sleepless nights, self-medication, etc) but he's finally getting the attention he deserves.
edit: that's why I will rarely if ever question service time questions. You serve, you're good in my book, and more of a man than I -- even if you didn't fight or your daddy got you out of hard duty or if you were some nurse that never left the shore. I don't care, you're still a hero.
Problem for Green Berets is that so many of them were stationed in "Korea" during that period and their records have mysteriously little evidence of what would cause debilitating injury/stress. It's been a lifetime of embarrassment (and nightmares, shocking temper, sleepless nights, self-medication, etc) but he's finally getting the attention he deserves.
edit: that's why I will rarely if ever question service time questions. You serve, you're good in my book, and more of a man than I -- even if you didn't fight or your daddy got you out of hard duty or if you were some nurse that never left the shore. I don't care, you're still a hero.
Mercury Fred
Banned
Kosmo said:
Kosmo said:
Kosmo said:
Kosmo said:
Kosmo said:
Hi, were you planning on addressing this?
RustyNails
Member
I think Al Franken is one of the best things that happened to Senate in a long time. God I hope he doesn't do something stupid like get caught DUI with a hooker and stash of coke or tweet his cock shotOblivion said:
TacticalFox88
Banned
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x7o0sNrulg&feature=feedu
For those who care, why Cenk left.
For those who care, why Cenk left.
I'm looking at this Gang of Six proposal, and it makes me sink. Gigantic cuts to Social Security and Medicare, with cuts to the income rates of the richest individuals and corporations in this country, without any mention of capital gains tax increases? WTF is this? Obama is supporting this? What happened to the sharing of the burden with jet liner travelers?
SoulPlaya said:
No, he's said it is broadly inline with what he'd like to see(bipartisan, cuts & revenues), but he hasn't said, "Pass this and I'll sign it." He knows if he said that, the Reps would back away even faster than they already are.
It's the best thing on the table right now among McConnell Surrender, Cut/Cap/Balance, GangOf6.
GrotesqueBeauty
Banned
So true. None of this would happen if he just bowed to every Republican demand, instead of just most of them.OuterWorldVoice said:
SoulPlaya said:
So you'd like to allow the Reps to absolve themselves of blame completely and see this drama carried out every 3-5 months for the rest of campaign season?
"Obama wants to raise the debt ceiling so he can spend more, but $GOP_candidate wants to cut taxes and wasteful government spending."
I think invoking the 14th amendment solution is better, but Obama's already ruled that out. And, just for the record, I'm still expecting that we'll get an 11th hour bill with $0-1.5T in cuts and a significant raise in the ceiling out to beyond the election.
The powers that be (Chamber of Commerce, hedge fund managers) are already slapping down the reticent Reps to vote for something before they screw them, so the closer we get, the more they'll drop demands.
For the sake of millions who depend on SS and Medicare? So, that the nation's middle class doesn't carry an even greater burden? Then yes, let the Repubs "absolve themselves of blame". They've already done so multiple times, and Obama has done nothing about it. Besides, if he supports this, then I would have a whole new slew of things to justifiably blame Obama with.DasRaven said:
SoulPlaya said:
Well, this time, he's seemingly doing something about it. He's pitting them against their primary constituencies and forcing them to make a Sofie's choice.
He has the last word (the signature) and he knows he can hold out longer than them. I wouldn't worry too much about what he supports anyway, it has to pass the House and Senate first and those are much higher bars.
- Status