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[Gaborn]

I mean negotiating in front of cameras with the specifics you demand. Even Obama's statement about loopholes isn't particularly specific: what loopholes are on the table, which ones aren't, etc. Most of what we know about the negotiations has come from behind-the-scenes accounts.

If there is no deal in the next couple days, Obama should simply walk away from the table and dare republicans to crash the economy. They won't

Obama's statement about the corporate jet loophole was specific enough to know that he believes it should be closed. I don't think it's unreasonable to find out if he has similar feelings about even ONE government program and whether it needs to be closed.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Obama's statement about the corporate jet loophole was specific enough to know that he believes it should be closed. I don't think it's unreasonable to find out if he has similar feelings about even ONE government program and whether it needs to be closed.

All accounts suggest the cuts come from spending cuts, not closing programs. Again, I'm confused why Obama's position here=not having a plan. He has proposed 4T in cuts...

 

[Gaborn]

All accounts suggest the cuts come from spending cuts, not closing programs. Again, I'm confused why Obama's position here=not having a plan. He has proposed 4T in cuts...

He proposed 4T in cuts over 12 yeas. That comes to around 333 billion dollars a year. How is it going to be allocated? Are we cutting a fixed amount every year or just a bunch from one year and letting expected inflation do the rest? What perception of the cuts are coming from each department? Saying that you will accept 4 trillion in cuts does not mean you'll accept 4 trillion in cuts from every program. For example we know Social Security and Medicare are off the table and it seems like the same is true of Obama's High Speed Rail projects, so what's the plan?

 

[Invisible_Insane]

I don't suppose that either restoring the Gephardt rule or the elimination of the debt ceiling altogether have been advanced as solutions to this wholly artificial, incredibly stupid, mind-numbing, asinine "crisis?" American democracy is truly the problem here, and if a constitutional crisis must result from this, I hope we at least take the opportunity to restructure some of the vestigial antiquities that have led us to this point, and not merely the debt ceiling issue.

He proposed 4T in cuts over 12 yeas. That comes to around 333 billion dollars a year. How is it going to be allocated? Are we cutting a fixed amount every year or just a bunch from one year and letting expected inflation do the rest? What perception of the cuts are coming from each department? Saying that you will accept 4 trillion in cuts does not mean you'll accept 4 trillion in cuts from every program. For example we know Social Security and Medicare are off the table and it seems like the same is true of Obama's High Speed Rail projects, so what's the plan?

Falsehood and stupidity. Changes to SS and Medicare have definitely been part of Obama's deficit reductions plans--the move to chained CPI, for example. It's one of the things that has been cause for all of the consternation among Democrats.

 

[Cygnus X-1]

Who do you think is taking the picture?

Good one

Anyway, living outside the States, I have some serious problem understanding what will GOP earn from avoiding any possible compromise in reducing the deficit. Wasn't their top priority during their midterm campaign?

 

[PantherLotus]

So what exactly did regularcitizen do that somedude hasn't been doing for years? Hey, not that I'm complaining, just wondering how we can get such quick (and just) action on one schmuck but not the other.

 

[Gaborn]

So what exactly did regularcitizen do that somedude hasn't been doing for years? Hey, not that I'm complaining, just wondering how we can get such quick (and just) action on one schmuck but not the other.

This is ironic because of your former tag.

 

[PantherLotus]

This is ironic because of your former tag.

IT'S ALMOST LIKE I KNEW THAT

 

[Averon]

So what exactly did regularcitizen do that somedude hasn't been doing for years? Hey, not that I'm complaining, just wondering how we can get such quick (and just) action on one schmuck but not the other.

I suspect SomeDude is "mod-approved". Nothing else explains how he's still around.

 

[Invisible_Insane]

So what exactly did regularcitizen do that somedude hasn't been doing for years? Hey, not that I'm complaining, just wondering how we can get such quick (and just) action on one schmuck but not the other.

It's like trying to kill a Hydra, I think.

 

[Dr. Pangloss]

The question that should be asked is why have any of these proposal failed? And the simple answer is revenue increases from closing tax loopholes. Republicans refuse to endorse any plan that has these which has led to this impasse. Also, many believe that the debt ceiling can be reached and nothing will happen. Name one Democrat that believes that. As the Democrats have shown we need to look the past when it comes to the debt ceiling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6nNJiJsm70

 

[timetokill]

So what exactly did regularcitizen do that somedude hasn't been doing for years? Hey, not that I'm complaining, just wondering how we can get such quick (and just) action on one schmuck but not the other.

maybe I'm wrong, but didn't somedude do more of the "single hit and run" type of posts, as opposed to the barrage of hit-and-runs that regularcitizen just did?

 

[RustyNails]

Please mods, don't ban SomeDude. He provides me much needed comic relief when poligaf becomes a smoke filled room with incredibly serious discussions, charts, statistics and of course, doom and gloom.

 

[Bay Maximus]

He proposed 4T in cuts over 12 yeas. That comes to around 333 billion dollars a year. How is it going to be allocated? Are we cutting a fixed amount every year or just a bunch from one year and letting expected inflation do the rest? What perception of the cuts are coming from each department? Saying that you will accept 4 trillion in cuts does not mean you'll accept 4 trillion in cuts from every program. For example we know Social Security and Medicare are off the table and it seems like the same is true of Obama's High Speed Rail projects,

I think the plan is to try to get some good faith negotiations from the GOP. Let's say Obama explicitly details every single spending cut on Monday. Will the GOP suddenly not be beholden to their ridiculous promises of never raising taxes and disagreeing with everything the Obama administration proposes? No, I don't think so.

 

[Blackface]

Please mods, don't ban SomeDude. He provides me much needed comic relief when poligaf becomes a smoke filled room with incredibly serious discussions, charts, statistics and of course, doom and gloom.

Thats how I feel about Gaborn.

 

[TacticalFox88]

Please mods, don't ban SomeDude. He provides me much needed comic relief when poligaf becomes a smoke filled room with incredibly serious discussions, charts, statistics and of course, doom and gloom.

If only drakesfortune came back. *sigh*

 

[Gaborn]

Thats how I feel about Gaborn.

I don't believe my posting has violated forum rules so I don't see why I should be concerned about that.

 

[Byakuya769]

All aboard the false equivalency train!! Gaborn will be our conductor today.

 

[besada]

If only drakesfortune came back. *sigh*

He was more scary than funny, honestly. I keep expecting to see him on one of Sovereign Citizen crime trawls.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Gaborn, you are asking two things which are unrealistic.

First, you are asking for a level of detail that is typically only seen during the legislative drafting process. We're not there.

Second, you're asking to see a level of detail from private negotiations which are not final - and details are seldom announced until they're final. I posted links that went into some detail on the proposals being discussed, to the extent to which they are known. A lot of the back and forth has been about technical details, such as linking Social Security to chained CPI, and many more have come out since then.

I'm not sure what you're looking for here that hasn't been provided or is simply never made available at this stage in a negotiation process.

Publicly, we're at the stage where people are talking about "frameworks", because there just isn't time to draft legislation between now and when the vote must happen. Which is why we're seeing punts like deals to expedite legislation through after the vote.

 

[Bishman]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...ne-as-gold-gains-as-u-s-debt-talks-stall.html

Source: Bloomberg

U.S. stock futures fell, indicating the Standard & Poor’s 500 Index will slump after rallying within 1.4 percent of a three-year high, as the dollar dropped and gold climbed as failure to raise the federal debt limit intensified concern of a default.

S&P 500 futures expiring in September declined 1 percent to 1,327.60 at 7:26 a.m. in Tokyo, and Dow Jones Industrial Average futures lost 119 points, or 0.9 percent, to 12,502. The dollar slipped 0.8 percent versus the Swiss franc, 0.3 percent against the yen and 0.2 percent versus the euro. Gold futures added as much as 1 percent to a record $1,617.70 an ounce.

House Speaker John Boehner told Republicans that there’s no agreement on a plan for raising the ceiling before a default threatened for Aug. 2. A Republican congressional official said Boehner, speaking by telephone to lawmakers, is reporting that discussions are continuing. The impasse has boosted the chance S&P will cut the U.S. credit rating from AAA within three months to 50 percent, the company said July 21.

“Stock markets around the globe will look to price in a greater uncertainty premium on account of political squabbles in the world’s largest economy and the increasing risk that it may lose its sacred AAA rating,” Mohamed A. El-Erian, chief executive officer and co-chief investment officer at Pacific Investment Management Co., wrote in an e-mail. His firm is the world’s biggest manager of bond funds. The most likely scenario is a “last minute political compromise will avoid a default, but will leave the AAA rating extremely vulnerable,” he said.​

GOP is destroying the economy again.

 

[PhoenixDark]

edit: dammit beaten

 

[Incognito]

elizabeth drew - what were they thinking?

Someday people will look back and wonder, What were they thinking? Why, in the midst of a stalled recovery, with the economy fragile and job creation slowing to a trickle, did the nation’s leaders decide that the thing to do—in order to raise the debt limit, normally a routine matter—was to spend less money, making job creation all the more difficult? Many experts on the economy believe that the President has it backward: that focusing on growth and jobs is more urgent in the near term than cutting the deficit, even if such expenditures require borrowing. But that would go against Obama’s new self-portrait as a fiscally responsible centrist.

Lawrence Summers, Obama’s recently resigned chief economic adviser, said on The Charlie Rose Show in July that he found it “dispiriting” that “all of the energy is on the projected deficits…when the problem right now is that the economy is in danger of stagnating from lack of demand.” The Republicans had made it clear for months that they would use the need to raise the debt ceiling as an instrument for extracting concessions from the Democratic President in the form of more cuts in federal programs. And the President assented to their premise, but only if there should also be some additional revenues. Were they all insane? That’s not a far-fetched question.

rest at link. apologies if this has already been posted -- if so, just read again!

 

[Incognito]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...ne-as-gold-gains-as-u-s-debt-talks-stall.html

Source: Bloomberg

U.S. stock futures fell, indicating the Standard & Poor’s 500 Index will slump after rallying within 1.4 percent of a three-year high, as the dollar dropped and gold climbed as failure to raise the federal debt limit intensified concern of a default.

S&P 500 futures expiring in September declined 1 percent to 1,327.60 at 7:26 a.m. in Tokyo, and Dow Jones Industrial Average futures lost 119 points, or 0.9 percent, to 12,502. The dollar slipped 0.8 percent versus the Swiss franc, 0.3 percent against the yen and 0.2 percent versus the euro. Gold futures added as much as 1 percent to a record $1,617.70 an ounce.

House Speaker John Boehner told Republicans that there’s no agreement on a plan for raising the ceiling before a default threatened for Aug. 2. A Republican congressional official said Boehner, speaking by telephone to lawmakers, is reporting that discussions are continuing. The impasse has boosted the chance S&P will cut the U.S. credit rating from AAA within three months to 50 percent, the company said July 21.

“Stock markets around the globe will look to price in a greater uncertainty premium on account of political squabbles in the world’s largest economy and the increasing risk that it may lose its sacred AAA rating,” Mohamed A. El-Erian, chief executive officer and co-chief investment officer at Pacific Investment Management Co., wrote in an e-mail. His firm is the world’s biggest manager of bond funds. The most likely scenario is a “last minute political compromise will avoid a default, but will leave the AAA rating extremely vulnerable,” he said.​

GOP is destroying the economy again.

the stock market is vastly inflated, anyway. still, a crash wouldn't be good. as it stands, i'm seriously considering removing a good chunk of money and putting it towards something useful -- such as a new cervelo aero bike -- while i still have the chance.

 

[mj1108]

GOP is destroying the economy again.

Yup and then they are going to blame Obama for it.

This is exactly what the GOP wants to do....they want to destroy the country and then point fingers and blame someone else. They already destroyed the country when Bush was in office....this is just their finishing move.

 

[water_wendi]

A very small part of me hopes we do default just to see the looks on all those tea-party reps who keep saying nothing will happen and watch as they take the blame for it ALL. I know what the ramifications are, though, so I don't really want to see that. Their stupidity just irks me.

This describes me. The ramifications would likely be horrible but it might be worth it in the long run to squelch the more extreme elements permanently.

 

[XMonkey]

Yup and then they are going to blame Obama for it.

This is exactly what the GOP wants to do....they want to destroy the country and then point fingers and blame someone else. They already destroyed the country when Bush was in office....this is just their finishing move.

I think the public is seeing through it this time. Obama has laid some pretty good groundwork for that notion if the ceiling isn't raised.

 

[maximum360]

All accounts suggest the cuts come from spending cuts, not closing programs. Again, I'm confused why Obama's position here=not having a plan. He has proposed 4T in cuts...

I love how Chris Wallace today was trying to hammer home the point that the democrats had not put forth any plan at all.

 

[jamesinclair]

Hey guys, I looked behind the curtains and look what I found.


<Goldman> GOP minions, I need you to bring the world economy to the brink of disaster
<GOP> Yes master
*Goldman shorts everything*
*GOP says no to deals*
*Stocks plunge*
*Goldman makes billions*

<Goldman> GOP minions, sign the deal.....NOW
<GOP> Yes master
*Goldman buys everything at low prices*
*GOP signs bill seconds later*
*Market explodes upwards*
*Goldman makes more billions*


All according to keitaku.

 

[TacticalFox88]

Yup and then they are going to blame Obama for it.

This is exactly what the GOP wants to do....they want to destroy the country and then point fingers and blame someone else. They already destroyed the country when Bush was in office....this is just their finishing move.

Sad part is you've got some who genuinely believe in the ideology they are spewing and are willfully ignorant of the consequences or too stupid to realize it.

 

[Incognito]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/23/super-congress-debt-ceiling_n_907887.html
This is a joke right? Super Congress?

l o l!! how about doing your fucking job?

 

[ToxicAdam]

Everything you disagree with the GOP with = a GOP conspiracy to tank the economy.


And you guys chide other users for making baseless, ridiculous 'talking point' comments? Hypocrisy.

 

[jamesinclair]

Everything you disagree with the GOP with = a GOP conspiracy to tank the economy.


And you guys chide other users for making baseless, ridiculous 'talking point' comments? Hypocrisy.

Its either a conspiracy or they're the biggest idiots on the planet.

Your choice.

 

[TacticalFox88]

Everything you disagree with the GOP with = a GOP conspiracy to tank the economy.


And you guys chide other users for making baseless, ridiculous 'talking point' comments? Hypocrisy.

So....what other rational conclusion can you come to? It's been almost 8 months since they came to power in the Lower House there hasn't been a SINGLE jobs bill. All they've done is repeat the obstructionist policies that the Senate has done ad infinitum during the first two years of Obama's presidency. There is no equivalency. There is only one party that refuses to cooperate and its sure as hell isn't the Democrats.

 

[ToxicAdam]

So....what other rational conclusion can you come to? It's been almost 8 months since they came to power in the Lower House there hasn't been a SINGLE jobs bill.

It's the party that believes government doesn't create sustainable jobs. Are you dense or just not paying attention? I'm sorry if that is rude, but it's their credo that they repeat ad nauseum.

 

[Evlar]

They might have told us that when they were running on a platform of getting America back to work.

 

[sc0la]

It's the party that believes government doesn't create sustainable jobs. Are you dense or just not paying attention? I'm sorry if that is rude, but it's their credo that they repeat ad nauseum.

But they didn't even propose any magic supply side policies to motivate the private sector.

They spent months in 2010 saying it was uncertainty that was keeping businesses at bay, and they single handedly created the biggest avoidable uncertainty in most of our lifetimes.

 

[worldrunover]

elizabeth drew - what were they thinking?


rest at link. apologies if this has already been posted -- if so, just read again!

Yes yes yes yes. This is proof positive every last politician we have working on this right now (even/especially Obama) doesn't give a shit about anything except re-election. Fucking disgusting.

 

[polyh3dron]

It's the party that believes government doesn't create sustainable jobs. Are you dense or just not paying attention? I'm sorry if that is rude, but it's their credo that they repeat ad nauseum.

If they're not going to do anything that helps lower the unemployment rate when they are in power, they shouldn't have lied when they were campaigning. It was all about jobs, jobs, jobs they said. That was going to be the GOP's top priority, helping America get back to work.

They have not done one fucking thing in this congress to help America get back to work. I knew they wouldn't, but apparently the people that voted for them didn't and therefore the Republicans made suckers out of their electorate.

 

[Jenga]

Yes yes yes yes. This is proof positive every last politician we have working on this right now (even/especially Obama) doesn't give a shit about anything except re-election. Fucking disgusting.

they've been like that for the past 200 years

 

[worldrunover]

they've been like that for the past 200 years

I know. I'm more disheartened with the fact that Obama saw his path to win the vote by moving further to the right instead of standing on some kind of liberal principle in order to shift the focus of the debate away from this spending cut craze that will only serve to hurt the economy.

 

[ToxicAdam]

But they didn't even propose any magic supply side policies to motivate the private sector.
.

Three off-shore drilling bills have been passed which promised to create a million new jobs and nearly a billion dollars in new revenue. They also sought to end regulations on the health care and financial industry (which would be some supply-side magic).

They might have told us that when they were running on a platform of getting America back to work.

I thought the Pledge to America was a weak concept, but they seem to be delivering on what they promised.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0611/58075.html

 

[polyh3dron]

elizabeth drew - what were they thinking?

Many experts on the economy believe that the President has it backward: that focusing on growth and jobs is more urgent in the near term than cutting the deficit

Wow. If it were up to Obama and the Dems we'd have done another stimulus program that actually focused on things like infrastructure and the like instead of a shitload of tax cuts, and they would have raised taxes on the rich. It'd also actually be a big enough package to fix things unlike the one that was crippled by the Republicans along with a few Blue Dog Dems from battleground states afraid of losing their next elections. (Many of them lost anyways, lol). Unfortunately we now have a GOP controlled house and they were put there because these Tea Partiers have been screaming bloody murder about all the SPENDING going on, like they were in a coma between 2001-2008. You can't get shit done without the house so Obama has attempted to play ball with the Republicans.

 

[empty vessel]

The problem is the debt ceiling and the possibility of default and a massive meltdown.

Another, more long-term problem is our unsustainable spending. But that is not the immediate problem. It's been superglued onto the immediate problem, but there's no real reason why it should be.

True story. This "problem" that Gaborn is going on about is the fact that Republicans are refusing to raise the debt limit. I'm not sure what Democratic "plan" he wants to see to solve that. I suppose they could put forth a plan that requires Republicans to be packed into a rocket and shot into outer space. That might solve it, although I don't know if it's constitutional.

 

[The Chosen One]

If they're not going to do anything that helps lower the unemployment rate when they are in power, they shouldn't have lied when they were campaigning. It was all about jobs, jobs, jobs they said. That was going to be the GOP's top priority, helping America get back to work.

The irony is that the GOP believes the government can't create jobs. You were never going to get a jobs bill from the GOP that wasn't composed of 100% tax cuts.

Honestly though, the GOP didn't win the midterms in 2010 because of the promise of jobs. They won because Dems (especially blue dogs) ran away from HCR and the Stimulus, instead of touting their benefits 24/7. They allowed Republicans to successfully paint HCR as complete "government control" and the Stimulus Bill as an "ineffective" liberal spending spree. And of course the constant demonization/delegitimizing of Obama on conservative media for nearly two straight years only made matters worse.

With unemployment being as high as it was, the midterms were always going to be bad for Dems. But they didn't do themselves any favors by running away from their legislation. This meant the GOP didn't really have to offer a plan last year, they just had to keep the Dems on defense.

Time will tell if the American populace will realize they've been conned again. It might actually take for the US to default on its debt for people to finally realized what they did last year with their votes.

 

[EviLore]

I encourage PoliGAF and the other GAF subcommunities to come up with designs representing their respective subcommunity for our NeoGAF t-shirt contest. >$500 in prizes for participants and the shirts will all be at-cost.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=438373

 

[PantherLotus]

I encourage PoliGAF and the other GAF subcommunities to come up with designs representing their respective subcommunity for our NeoGAF t-shirt contest. >$500 in prizes for participants and the shirts will all be at-cost.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=438373

Quick, what's your take on the debt ceiling issue?

 

[Chichikov]

I encourage PoliGAF and the other GAF subcommunities to come up with designs representing their respective subcommunity for our NeoGAF t-shirt contest. >$500 in prizes for participants and the shirts will all be at-cost.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=438373

Typical mod, focusing on shirts instead of jobs.
WHAT ABOUT HE JOBS?!?

 

[PhoenixDark]

I encourage PoliGAF and the other GAF subcommunities to come up with designs representing their respective subcommunity for our NeoGAF t-shirt contest. >$500 in prizes for participants and the shirts will all be at-cost.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=438373

Black shirt with white letters saying "should have voted for Hillay"

 

[Chichikov]

Black shirt with white letters saying "should have voted for Hillay"

And under it:
"fuck hope, this country needs a bitch".