WickedAngel
Banned
Door2Dawn said:
What they want will make the problem worse, not better.
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PoliGAF 2011: Of Weiners, Boehners, Santorum, and Teabags
- Thread starter PantherLotus
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What they want will make the problem worse, not better.
RegularCitizen
Banned
This is about raising the debt ceiling.Suikoguy said:
Bulbo Urethral Baggins
Banned
I'm not sure what to make of it. Sometimes a leader has to say "work this shit out and get back to me"theBishop said:
RegularCitizen
Banned
The midterms were a mandate from the country. This is just the political system carrying due course.
Patrick Klepek
furiously molesting tim burton
Don't fall for the troll, guys.
RegularCitizen
Banned
You want to talk about lack of effort? You dismiss everyone who doesn't agree with you as a troll.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
RegularCitizen said:
If you're just going to snipe things and not put in any effort in the first place, then you're going to get the same lack of effort in return and labeled a troll. Simple forum etiquette.
Vestal
Junior Member
Gaborn said:
What you think the 3.5 trillion in cuts + 800 to 1.2 trillion in revenue was just Bohners idea? Gang of 6 was really gang of 3 republicans? The republicans themselves decided to bring the Bush tax cuts to the table? SERIOUSLY
What have the Republicans proposed for the exeption of a very vague Cut Cap Balance trash bill?
Cyan said:
Well we saw the Ryan budget, the Progressive Caucus put out a "budget" with no numbers but I don't think we've seen anything else. I haven't heard about any proposed spending cuts from the left though. As near as I can tell the Republicans have only publicly talked about spending cuts and the Democrats have only publicly talked about tax increases, aside from saying what they WON'T cut. Both sides seem to be publicly very dug in and offering little ground to the other in terms of specific suggestions.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Gaborn said:
Well, I know Obama put out his budget proposal framework back in April, so there's that to at least get an idea of where the Democrats were coming from back in April.
polyh3dron
Banned
The midterms were but the 2008 election wasn't, right?RegularCitizen said:
After Obama and the Dems won in 2008 they could hardly get anything passed because the GOP decided to filibuster EVERYTHING. They had to bow before Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins because they held all the cards. The stimulus bill was nerfed (which could be to blame for the high unemployment rate, plus a large amount of it was tax cuts to appease Republicans who didn't vote for it anyways), the HCR bill ended up being what Republicans were pushing for back in the Clinton years and it still got demonized as that evil Obamacare, etc.
But when the GOP gets back into power in ONE house as a reward for being obstructionist, they have a mandate.
You so crazy.
Oh, I see. I thought you were talking specifically about the debt ceiling talks. I assume there've been many proposals from both sides that we aren't privy to. Presumably so that when they come out with whatever frankenstein shit sandwich thing we're supposed to swallow, we won't know what the alternatives were.Gaborn said:
Well, Obama has talked about making big cuts and Boehner talked about removing tax loopholes before Cantor torpedoed him. Though it's fairly clear what each side's priorities are.
worldrunover
Member
Gaborn said:
Here's the Democrats' proposal: Just raise the debt ceiling. Why did all this talk about spending cuts get caught up in this negotiation anyway? One has little to do with each other. Discuss cuts and revenue when you do the new budget.
The GOP helped just as much (if not more) to accrue the debt we currently have. You can't feign fiscal discipline by ripping up the credit card bill when it comes in the mail. That's not how that works.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Gaborn said:
I'll not touch the distortions, but the speech wasn't JUST about his opposition to the GOP plan but about what he, himself, wanted.
Not all, in fact we agree on a great deal. Because if the 2010 elections was a mandate, then the 2008 election surely was a much greater mandate, which makes the unprecedented obstructionism the GOP created truly reprehensible. And since we agree on that, we can probably agree that since the electorate brought us a divided government, that means both sides need to compromise and not just one, since the GOP controls just one half of Congress.RegularCitizen said:
leroy hacker
Member
Gaborn said:
Not raising the debt ceiling will at the very very least increase interest rates for government borrowing and make the government's fiscal problems worse.
Anyone against raising the debt ceiling is either an idiot or a partisan hack. I hate to say that in a reply to you Gaborn, but one side of this argument has lost all contact with reality.
RegularCitizen
Banned
I think we should at least try the Ryan plan.
Oblivion said:
I'm not a Republican. I don't think the Republicans are any more serious than the Dems. I think they're MARGINALLY better on fiscal matters when a Democrat is President but I have absolutely NO illusion about what the fuckers will do if and when they actually get power again and suddenly the spigot starts flowing again. I WILL say I find it unbelievable the congress has not passed a budget in 800 days.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
RegularCitizen said:
Dude, you literally just keep coming in here and posting short posts with nothing substantive backing them up. And you wonder why people have labeled you a troll?
A budget plan is not a new brand of cheese; it has serious long-term ramifications, and you can't just "try" a massive overhaul of government. I'll freely admit to being less politically informed than many, but everything that I read about the Ryan plan seemed disastrous.
The Gang of Six - which was a gang of three Dems and two Reps since Coburn walked - put out a proposal.Gaborn said:
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...ion-not-to-conflate-with-debt-limit-fight.php
Kent Conrad's budget committee put out a proposal.
http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-mon...educe-deficit-with-spending-cuts-and-tax-hike
Pelosi put forward a (revenue-free) proposal:
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...nue-free-path-forward-on-debt-limit-fight.php
Obama put forward a $4b package:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...on-deficit-reduction-in-12-years-or-less.html
And they were about $400b away from a deal with Boehner:
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/07/white-house-we-thought-we-were-down-to-the-details.php
You must not be paying any attention, Gaborn.Gaborn said:
Please explain why. We know that the Ryan plan involves large additional tax cuts for the wealthy, increases on the poor, and cost shifting to the elderly from Medicare. If you cut or reduce the Medicare cost shifting, his plan actually increases the deficit in the long term. And even without, his plan adds $6t over the next ten years, when Obama is talking about cutting it by $4t over the next 12.RegularCitizen said:
So, please explain why you support the Ryan plan.
MrGame&Watch
Member
I don't know if this has been talked about, but Lawrence O'Donnell has an interesting theory on the debt negotiations he's been peddling for weeks.
Basically Obama for months has just wanted a clean debt ceiling without any cuts like it's usually done. Then the House GOP demands that there's cuts for any debt ceiling. Obama knows that no matter what they'll refuse to sign onto a bill with taxes, so Obama offers up a deal that puts all of the entitlements that the Democrats hold so dear on the table fully well knowing that as long as he doesn't budge on taxes, the GOP cannot sign onto it. This forces a short term deal that just raises the debt ceiling in order to save the markets. It makes the GOP look like douchebags, makes Obama look awesome, and Obama gets what he wanted from the beginning- a clean debt ceiling raise
Basically Obama for months has just wanted a clean debt ceiling without any cuts like it's usually done. Then the House GOP demands that there's cuts for any debt ceiling. Obama knows that no matter what they'll refuse to sign onto a bill with taxes, so Obama offers up a deal that puts all of the entitlements that the Democrats hold so dear on the table fully well knowing that as long as he doesn't budge on taxes, the GOP cannot sign onto it. This forces a short term deal that just raises the debt ceiling in order to save the markets. It makes the GOP look like douchebags, makes Obama look awesome, and Obama gets what he wanted from the beginning- a clean debt ceiling raise
worldrunover
Member
Gaborn said:
Why is the debt and deficit an immediate problem, especially considering the current state of the economy?
Oh that's right, it isn't.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
lol @ folks responding to regularcitizen. He's BARELY a step up from Somedude.
leroy hacker
Member
By the way, I wonder what the tea party republicans think will happen if we don't get our debt under control. They can't be worried we'll be forced into austerity spending because that's their platform. And they can't be worried about damaging the government's credit rating because that's what they're advocating.
A very small part of me hopes we do default just to see the looks on all those tea-party reps who keep saying nothing will happen and watch as they take the blame for it ALL. I know what the ramifications are, though, so I don't really want to see that. Their stupidity just irks me.
RegularCitizen
Banned
I don't think I can say it better than Paul Ryan himself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioDKRmV8YxI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioDKRmV8YxI
GhaleonEB said:
Have we actually seen the budget? Can We read it? What programs are cut in it? How much do each department see decreases in spending and how much do we see increases in spending by? As near as I can tell people agree we need deep cuts (and some think revenue is necessary) but I haven't heard them talking about actually cutting a program, I just hear dollar figures bandied about for total cuts. Show me.
1. Kent Conrad was part of the gang of 6.
2. Saying that the budget should include 50% revenue increases and 50% spending cuts is hardly a budget, it's a statement of principles. Show me a budget. Show me a specific program he wants cut.
Pelosi met with Reporters, and I would LOVE to pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan as much as anyone but we both know that Obama would veto a budget that required that. It's not a serious plan. It's also not on paper.
see, this is the closest thing to what I'm asking for and this is the heart of it I think:
I think this is a worthy frame work - but WHERE are the cuts coming from? How much from each department? What programs specifically is Obama willing to completely eliminate? Can we name ONE single program?
Well yes, that's what the white house says. I would expect them to say nothing less because it's good politics.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Gaborn: where is there any budget that goes line-by-line and program-by-program in delineating these cuts? I've been trying to find one from either side that has this, and as far as I can tell, the only specific one is the Ryan plan and, well, you know how that one has fared.
Gaborn, the problem with what you're saying about the Dems not having a "plan" because there are no "specifics" is irrelevant because the Republican scumbags don't even want to hear about such things as long as tax revenues are on the table.
The problem is the debt ceiling and the possibility of default and a massive meltdown.Gaborn said:
Another, more long-term problem is our unsustainable spending. But that is not the immediate problem. It's been superglued onto the immediate problem, but there's no real reason why it should be.
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
Sure, but I also know how Obama's health care plan fared - Everyone, regardless of their politics hated it but it was the only proposal out there. Look, personally? I don't like the Ryan budget. It doesn't go far enough and it doesn't address raising the retirement age in Social Security which I think would be VITAL to a serious plan. As you say, the Ryan plan is the only one that's out there and being the only proposal out there is better than being too terrified to put it out there. The people have a right to know what their government is talking about doing to their budget, budgeting needs to be a transparent, open process, not one done behind closed doors.
However, to be clear I don't ask for a line by line budget. I want someone to give an example of a specific program they're willing to cut. Obama gave a great example of a tax loophole that he wants closed with the deduction for flying in private jets. Can he give a similar example of a program he thinks should be eliminated?
PhoenixDark
Banned
Gaborn said:
You don't think the last MONTH of negotiations have included specific programs and spending cuts behind closed doors? Neither party is negotiating in front of cameras, so arguing democrats "don't have a plan" is irrelevant. Obama and Boehner were discussing Medicare and SS cuts, alongside other cuts.
RegularCitizen said:
Then you don't actually have anything to say, do you? If you want discussion, it requires that you have a point of view, rather than parroting someone else's point of view. Otherwise, when you drop in with a one line post and then refuse to engage, the only assumption a reasonable person can make is that you're trolling. And, as a junior, that's a fairly dangerous activity. You certainly wouldn't be the first to founder on that set of rocks.
If you want to discuss, discuss. Otherwise, your time here will be short.
PhoenixDark said:
So I DIDN'T hear Obama publicly blasting Republicans over refusing to discuss EVEN that tax loophole? PD, you're better than that. Of COURSE they're negotiating in front of cameras, this is all a PR game in public and it's not like Obama just slipped that out. He got it out there because it would play well.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
besada said:
Pretty much.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Gaborn said:
I mean negotiating in front of cameras with the specifics you demand. Even Obama's statement about loopholes isn't particularly specific: what loopholes are on the table, which ones aren't, etc. Most of what we know about the negotiations has come from behind-the-scenes accounts.
If there is no deal in the next couple days, Obama should simply walk away from the table and dare republicans to crash the economy. They won't
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