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[Jonm1010]

Maybe in a couple of months they can get a deal done that takes austerity measures seriously and implements some serious cuts to government programs.

When have austerity measures during a demand driven recession been a good idea? Remind me again

 

[ViperVisor]

Jesus tap-dancing Christ I gotta post this again.

The difference between Obama's irrelevant politics in the past vs. Republicans now.

Obama started in the Senate after these were thrown on the debt card where the GOP had to raise it multiple times under Bush. As a matter of fact During Bush Presidency, Current GOP Leaders Voted 19 Times To Increase Debt Limit By $4 Trillion

$1,260,000,000,000 Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001
$87,000,000,000 Farm Security and Rural Investment Act of 2002
$53,000,000,000 Energy Policy Act of 2003
$350,000,000,000 Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003
$500,000,000,000 The Medicare Prescription Drug, Improvement, and Modernization Act of 2003
Afghanistan War
Iraq War
more defense/security spending on top

polyh3dron, I limited this to just the biggest budget busters prior to Obama in the senate. That new graph http://i.imgur.com/F8w9i.gif is a better full picture of spending the past decade.

 

[empty vessel]

Right, I understand that is your opinion. I don't think it's a stupid position to hold, and reasonable people could argue for it. I also hope you realize that others disagree, and reasonable people could argue against your position.

However, the validity of your position is not the current subject of discussion. The current subject is very precise: does this bill represent a compromise? Because several people have implied that both sides need to compromise, and yet they are both being stubborn.

If we agree that, in this case, fiscal liberals get nothing -- as you are explicitly stating -- then this doesn't really represent a compromise, and I don't think it's reasonable to suggest liberals are the ones being stubborn here. In this bill, they're giving fiscal conservatives a good deal of what they want, and getting absolutely nothing in return.

Damnit Opiate, your good posts keep getting the last spot. (Yes, I'm a fool who maintains a 50-post per page setting.)

 

[polyh3dron]

Hey Viper, you forgot TARP and the first half of the auto company bailouts.

 

[SlipperySlope]

Dang it! Got my bills mixed up. The one I was thinking of was passed in 2/2009. Almost 2008

Specifically, this bill:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Recovery_and_Reinvestment_Act_of_2009

Most of it was spending increases.

 

[Opiate]

Guys, please try not to "pile up" on SlipperySlope or other conservatives here. I know you mean well, but it can be overwhelming simply due to the sheer number of responses.

For example, look at the last half page. You can't seriously expect him to respond to 6 different people making 6 slightly different points every time he makes a post, do you?

I'm not suggesting you have to agree with him. And I know it's difficult to "coordinate" posts in any real way here. But if you think someone is already going to make a point -- or if the point has already been made -- try to lay off.

This is not a threat from a moderator. I will not, and perhaps cannot, ban people for "piling up" on another poster. It's simply a favor requested.

 

[polyh3dron]

If we agree that, in this case, fiscal liberals get nothing -- as you are explicitly stating -- then this doesn't really represent a compromise, and I don't think it's reasonable to suggest liberals are the ones being stubborn here. In this bill, they're giving fiscal conservatives a good deal of what they want, and getting absolutely nothing in return.

The Republican argument brought forth by Boehner is that the concession they are giving up in return is simply the act of raising the debt ceiling. Seriously.

 

[Allard]

The Republican argument brought forth by Boehner is that the concession they are giving up in return is simply the act of raising the debt ceiling. Seriously.

I wonder what must be on the mind of most their campaign donors knowing they helped people like this get elected . What I wouldn't give to see how the main members of the Chamber of Commerce are taking this.

 

[Patrick Klepek]

Yes, those people get nothing. IMO they should get nothing. We can't afford more spending increases. With the budget the way it is, we simply cannot afford Keynesian economics. It was tried in 2008. It failed. Austerity is the word now, and not just in the US.

Wrong.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...1/07/29/gIQAj8lNhI_blog.html?wprss=ezra-klein

 

[GhaleonEB]

They got what they wanted in the 2008 stimulus bill. What spending cuts were there in that bill?

Here you go. I'm sure this will change your point of view now that you are informed.

Senate Republicans forced a near unprecedented level of changes (near $150 billion) in the House bill which had more closely followed the Obama plan. The biggest losers were States (severely restricted Stabilization Fund) and the low income workers (reduced tax credit) with major gains for the elderly (largely left out of the Obama & House plans) and high income tax-payers. A comparison of the $827 billion economic recovery plan drafted by Senate Democrats with a $820 billion version passed by the House and the final $787 billion conference version shows huge shifts within these similar totals. Additional debt costs would add about $350 billion or more over 10 years. Many provisions will expire in two years.

The main funding differences between the Senate bill and the House bill are: More funds for health care in the Senate ( $153.3 vs $140 billion), for green energy programs ($74 vs. $39.4 billion), for home buyers tax credit ($35.5 vs. $2.6 billion), new payments to the elderly and a one year increase in AMT limits. The House has more funds appropriated for education ($143 vs. $119.1 billion), infrastructure ($90.4 vs. $62 billion) and for aid to low income workers and the unemployed ($71.5 vs. $66.5 billion).
​

The Senate Republicans forced a huge swath of changes to the bill in conference. After it got through the Senate, the spending components were dropped considerably. Obama then signed this much compromised bill into law.

 

[Incognito]

wsj hammers the tea partiers again

Instead of such a useful reform, a GOP faction is fixated on a balanced budget amendment. After Thursday's stall, the new Boehner plan will only authorize the second tranche of debt if two-thirds of both chambers pass such an amendment and send it to the states for ratification. This will not happen.

These columns drew much notice after John McCain quoted our July 27 "tea party hobbits" line on the Senate floor. Senator (sic) Sharron Angle responded that "it is the hobbits who are the heroes and save the land." Well, okay, but our point was that there's no such thing as a hobbit. Passing a balanced budget amendment this year is a similar fantasy. Yet outfits like the Club for Growth used the amendment as an excuse to flip from opposing the Boehner plan to supporting it. Maybe it should be the Club for Futile Fiscal Gestures.

The main result of this pointless crusade has been to damage Mr. Boehner's leverage and push the final debt-limit increase in Mr. Reid's direction. The Speaker may now have to seek the tender mercies of Nancy Pelosi to get a final bill through the House, and who knows what her price will be.

The debt-limit hobbits should also realize that at this point the Washington fracas they are prolonging is harming the Republican image. The GOP is not coming off as adults to whom voters might entrust the government.

 

[Piecake]

wsj hammers the tea partiers again

The 29th district of Nevada should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[Jonm1010]

Is McConnel going back on his 50 vote pledge to Reid?

I just tuned in, can someone fill me in on what I missed.

 

[ToxicAdam]

Club for Futile Fiscal Gestures. hahah

 

[Dude Abides]

wsj hammers the tea partiers again

Holy shit. When the GOP/Teatards have lost even the WSJ op-ed page...

 

[Jonm1010]

Yep, apparently McConnell said he wont negotiate with Reid in any way and will fillibuster.

Those good ole compromising Republicans amirite slipperyslope, bilbo, pctx?

 

[Fatghost]

Yep, apparently McConnell said he wont negotiate with Reid in any way and will fillibuster.

Those good ole compromising Republicans amirite slipperyslope, bilbo, pctx?

What? Where are you getting this?

 

[Opiate]

Another Political Discussion thread has been started, this week, on the effects of globalization:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=439048

I want to particularly encourage conservative posters to look in to that thread, for two reasons: 1) I begin by laying out a conservative position on a topic, and would welcome correction where needed, and 2) I strongly desire for these separate political discussions to become less of the sort of "pile on" this thread can sometimes become, as I've just eluded to.

Thanks in advance to any who participate.

 

[polyh3dron]

Here you go. I'm sure this will change your point of view now that you are informed.

I predict SS will make the same claim a couple pages later or so.

Besides, how can you trust Wikipedia anyways, some liberals probably edited it.

Yep, apparently McConnell said he wont negotiate with Reid in any way and will fillibuster.

Those good ole compromising Republicans amirite slipperyslope, bilbo, pctx?

Wow.

 

[Jonm1010]

What? Where are you getting this?

MSNBC. I just switched over to the channel and heard McConnell and Reid speaking and then they replayed it on whatever show was on.

McConnell said he will not negotiate with Reid and that he seemingly is planning on filibustering Reids vote on his bill.

 

[SlipperySlope]

Wrong.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...1/07/29/gIQAj8lNhI_blog.html?wprss=ezra-klein

Here's the problem. The deficit spending only prolonged the problem. It didn't fix anything. The growth was manufactured. It wasn't real. Home prices weren't allowed to bottom out. Which is why we are now seeing this slow downward trajectory in the housing market again. The housing market would have bottomed out a while ago if the government didn't step in.

Same goes for the rest of the economy. We are now entering this second patch of downward spin. The government can't afford to keep us in neutral anymore, so now the economy is resuming its recession. Mostly because the recession wasn't allowed to bottom out. That is why the stimulus package failed.

It's like a bandaid. It's better to just rip it off quickly and get it over with, than to slowly peel it off.

You can also look at Japan. When its housing market started stumbling, the government stepped in to try to keep housing prices stable. The effort failed and in the end the government's plan merely prolonged the pain.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Yep, apparently McConnell said he wont negotiate with Reid in any way and will fillibuster.

Those good ole compromising Republicans amirite slipperyslope, bilbo, pctx?

Filibuster on the face of financial ruin?

You must be jesting. They can't be that irresponsible.


Someone on CNN outlined the schedule the government needs to keep in order to realistically get this done. It leaves about 6 hours of actual wiggle room, and that's assuming no legislators sleep for the next week.

It's really gotten that close. We're treading dangerous waters and one bad move could be a major blow to our country.

 

[slit]

It seems to me the reason this got put off for so long was because everybody kept saying there's no way they won't increase the debt ceiling. Now they don't know how to proceed with The Tea Party and The GOP really taking us off a cliff. Everybody keeps saying they're going to do it, they're not that stupid. We may have overestimated their reasonable side.

 

[Averon]

Yep, apparently McConnell said he wont negotiate with Reid in any way and will fillibuster.

Those good ole compromising Republicans amirite slipperyslope, bilbo, pctx?

WTF!?!

 

[polyh3dron]

It seems to me the reason this got put off for so long was because everybody kept saying there's no way they won't increase the debt ceiling. Now they don't know how to proceed with The Tea Party and The GOP really taking us off a cliff.

By this point, hopefully there'll just be the single-sentence ceiling raising bill that goes through every other time.

 

[Jonm1010]

Filibuster on the face of financial ruin?

You must be jesting. They can't be that irresponsible.

He didnt explicitly say it but in his response to questioning by a surprised Reid, McConnell was basically like "It would be irresponsible for me not to do it on a bill as big as this."

 

[Xdrive05]

So why has this crisis been framed as a 50/50 thing in the media? Everyone knows that this is exactly one party (and especially one faction of the party) holding things up. And the 'liberal media' insists on pretending like both parties are responsible.

I mean, you can argue that failing to raise the debt ceiling is okay given our financial situation - but you can't reasonably argue that the Democrats are equally the reason why it is not being raised.

This reminds me of the Intelligent Design vs. Evolution "debate". Idiots try to frame the issue as though the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Sorry, but sometimes one side is just plain wrong.

 

[Fatghost]

Filibuster on the face of financial ruin?

You must be jesting. They can't be that irresponsible.


Someone on CNN outlined the schedule the government needs to keep in order to realistically get this done. It leaves about 6 hours of actual wiggle room, and that's assuming no legislators sleep for the next week.

It's really gotten that close. We're treading dangerous waters and one bad move could be a major blow to our country.

Yeah but there are still six hours. You know this will get solved with less than 10 seconds on the clock. Anything earlier just won't do.

 

[polyh3dron]

So why has this crisis been framed as a 50/50 thing in the media? Everyone knows that this is exactly one party (and especially one faction of the party) holding things up. And the 'liberal media' insists on pretending like both parties are responsible.

I mean, you can argue that failing to raise the debt ceiling is okay given our financial situation - but you can't reasonably argue that the Democrats are equally the reason why it is not being raised.

This reminds me of the Intelligent Design vs. Evolution "debate". Idiots try to frame the issue as though the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Sorry, but sometimes one side is just plain wrong.

It's the de facto false equivalence mandate on mainstream American news media. If it gets violated then the right wing noise machine shrieks in terror.

You can pretty much blame Fox News.

 

[Jonm1010]

So why has this crisis been framed as a 50/50 thing in the media? Everyone knows that this is exactly one party (and especially one faction of the party) holding things up. And the 'liberal media' insists on pretending like both parties are responsible.

I mean, you can argue that failing to raise the debt ceiling is okay given our financial situation - but you can't reasonably argue that the Democrats are equally the reason why it is not being raised.

This reminds me of the Intelligent Design vs. Evolution "debate". Idiots try to frame the issue as though the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Sorry, but sometimes one side is just plain wrong.

They dont want the "liberal news" stigma assigned to them.

So news is now a 50/50 to each sides arguments even if one person is saying "the sky is red"when clearly its blue.

 

[Jonm1010]

Boehner bill dead - 59-41 vote. Some Republicans switched sides to vote it down apparently.

I Guess thats a good sign

 

[TacticalFox88]

Club for Futile Fiscal Gestures. hahah

I had to read this graph twice....they'd rather shit not get done, then to compromise? GAH!

 

[LetsGoKiting]

Can't Boehner make an agreement between a majority of republicans and democrats to make a compromised plan that leaves out the tea party?

 

[videogamer]

I had to read this graph twice....they'd rather shit not get done, then to compromise? GAH!

not just that, Republicans would be willing to make things worse ("no matter what")

 

[slit]

Can't Boehner make an agreement between a majority of republicans and democrats to make a compromised plan that leaves out the tea party?

Sure and then he can kiss his speakership goodbye.

 

[Souldriver]

So I was wondering...

I know Obama's approval ratings are in the shitter because of this whole debacle, but are there specific polls about which person/plan/party the public trusts/distrusts and or blames for this situation?

It's hard to fathom that there would still be people siding with the tea partiers, but I have a dark brown feeling that there's still a whole bunch of them.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Boehner bill dead - 59-41 vote. Some Republicans switched sides to vote it down apparently.

I Guess thats a good sign

Well, now what do we do

sigh...

, but are there specific polls about which person/plan/party the public trusts/distrusts and or blames for this situation?

The public almost unanimously (71%) dislikes how the GOP is handling it

 

[Allard]

Sure and then he can kiss his speakership goodbye.

Its probably gone no matter what. Tea Party may very well be a vocal minority in the Republican house but they are still a minority. If a default happens on Boehners watch you can bet all but the Tea Party caucus is going to vote him out of speakership.

 

[LetsGoKiting]

Sure and then he can kiss his speakership goodbye.

So it's his job or the economy? Tough choice.

 

[polyh3dron]

not just that, Republicans would be willing to make things worse ("no matter what")

 

[bodyofanamerican]

Can't Boehner make an agreement between a majority of republicans and democrats to make a compromised plan that leaves out the tea party?

You're so cute.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Sure and then he can kiss his speakership goodbye.

The Tea Party does not have nearly the same grip on the Senate as the House.

It's worth noting that the Boehner bill got only partisan support in the House, but bi-partisan opposition in the Senate. I wonder how the news orgs will convey this information.

 

[slit]

Its probably gone no matter what. Tea Party may very well be a vocal minority in the Republican house but they are still a minority. If a default happens on Boehners watch you can bet all but the Tea Party caucus is going to vote him out of speakership.

It's possible that he's out no matter what, but I don't even know if the "reasonable" Republicans will go with Reid's plan even if Boehner tries to bring it to a vote. I think the GOP is honestly trying to figure out if just defaulting is better for them politically. I don't think they're looking at it from the point of what's best for the country but what's gonna keep their own neck out of the noose.

 

[Jonm1010]

Can't Boehner make an agreement between a majority of republicans and democrats to make a compromised plan that leaves out the tea party?

In a perfect world the Senate narrowly passes the Reid plan over a McConnell filibuster and Boehner tries to make the argument to the GOP that they get some of what they want and try to court a few democrats that cover the loses he will get from tea party defectors.

He tries to play up the bi-partisan aspect and the thing gets signed by Tuesday.


What will happen in reality or what is going through Boehners brain is anyones guess.

 

[Souldriver]

Club for Futile Fiscal Gestures. hahah

Damn, if there ever was a graph illustrating what's causing the deadlock in American politics. And it also shows explicitly who's the main culprit. *facepalm*

The public almost unanimously (71%) dislikes how the GOP is handling it

Well, that's something at least.

 

[Allard]

It's possible, but I don't even know if the "reasonable" Republicans will go with Reid's plan even if Boehner tries to bring it to a vote. I think the GOP is honestly trying to figure out if just defaulting is better for them politically. I don't think they're looking at it from the point of what's best for the country but what's gonna keep their own neck out of the noose.

I'm hoping with that Wall Street Journal article and maybe some other conservative and more business based newspapers start spreading ill will of the Tea Party, it might give those moderate republicans a bit of cover and hopefully change the tide on them a bit as the most vocal part of the caucus which I hope would lead to them voting on the potential Reid plan.

 

[mckmas8808]

Well, I think it could be argued that Obama is sort of up against a wall and the Republicans know it. So they're playing this for all it's worth.

There is a reason Obama has been "Mr Compromise" in this debate, and it's not because he's just that nice. He knows he's got more to lose than anyone here. In the end he'll get the majority of the blame, regardless of how this played out.

Obama also knows he ignored his own debt commission's recommendations, which is going to come back to bite him later.

This is a damn lie. The Congress denied the commission's recommendations. Obama is the one that push for it and had to sign an executive order to get it going.

 

[eznark]

The public almost unanimously (71%) dislikes how the GOP is handling it

Loosest definition of "almost unanimously" ever.

Been in a conference for women-owned small business owners all day, did I miss anything important?

 

[Jonm1010]

Club for Futile Fiscal Gestures. hahah

See guys, Just by the sheer act of saying they would compromise republicans are going against their constituents wishes, while democrats are just doing exactly what their constituents want by compromising.

See, Republicans are willing to risk their necks, while democrats just let their far left base dictate policy

*takes his republican logic hat off*

 

[empty vessel]

Club for Futile Fiscal Gestures. hahah

This is the effect of political movements. It's the mechanism by which it overcomes traditional power structures (business interests) in a liberal democracy. It's actually in itself a good thing. The problem in this particular instance, of course, is not the fact that a movement exists per se, but what that movement stands for (i.e., its content), which is the destruction of the United States.