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[Mike M]

Obama is collapsing. The democrats and republicans are collapsing. Revolution soon.

Why not get a head start on the secessionist craze and secede from the Internet.

 

[speculawyer]

I support a president who is not afraid to admit he is a Christian..

From a person who has probably been too afraid to admit Obama is a Christian and thus believes he is a secret Muslim.

 

[A Human Becoming]

Invoking the 14th could also shitcan our AAA rating. While I support its use, the ramifications could be quite disgusting with republicans attempting to either challenge the decision or impeach the president. I could also see them refusing to work with Obama for the rest of the year.

Still, I would prefer that over a shitty "compromise"

Would you call what they're doing now working with Obama? If they did impeach Obama, the senate would acquit him. Also, have you heard anyone say invoking the 14th Amendment could still hurt our AAA rating?

 

[Trurl]

Obama is collapsing. The democrats and republicans are collapsing. Revolution soon.

What are you doing to prepare? What do you suggest to the posters of Poligaf?

 

[Dr. Pangloss]

Section 4 of the 14th Amendment was created for situations just like this: a party majority in Congress holding the debt hostage asking for demands. I'd rather Obama evoke it and deal with the aftermath than sign a shitty deal that does more harm than good, regardless if it raises the debt ceiling.

At this point do people here believe the US interest rate will still be saved if a deal is made before August 2nd or has the damage already been done?

An amendment that was created in the 1860s was designed to stop the use of a mechanism that did not exist till after the first World War? It was probably added to reassure investors that the United States would pay off its debt for the Civil War. You're asking if the interest rate will change and want him to use the 14th amendment option? Markets will react negatively if he did and the rate will increase. Republicans do not hate America. They just see this as their chance to radically change it into what they want. The question is will Democrats stop them?

 

[Souldriver]

What are you doing to prepare? What do you suggest to the posters of Poligaf?

Form your own country together with your neighborhood committee.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

people are saying revolution in total earnesty, like, not simply as a fun thing to put at the end of Ron Paul posters? bahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

[fenners]

Sorry Jeels, endless war is more important in Washington than investment in America's future. Or to them are they the same thing? :O



Did his pray event thing happen yet? If so, how did that go?

You'll know when it happens.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

so let's say the empire crashes

umm... there certainly isn't some kind of utopia at the end of that tunnel. Probably a dictatorship.
Not sure why anyone would ever want that to happen

 

[Jeels]

Sorry Jeels, endless war is more important in Washington than investment in America's future. Or to them are they the same thing? :O



Did his pray event thing happen yet? If so, how did that go?

Thanks for the positive encouragement.

Has war benefited the country since World War II? Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan all seem like duds.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

it's not beneficial to the common weal, but boy are those contractors rolling in dough

 

[Trurl]

Form your own country together with your neighborhood committee.

My friends and I formed our own countries long ago. I recently imposed economic sanctions on the nation of Bobtopia for returning Trurlsyvania's Wii controllers without replacing the batteries.

 

[Vox-Pop]

so let's say the empire crashes

umm... there certainly isn't some kind of utopia at the end of that tunnel. Probably a dictatorship.
Not sure why anyone would ever want that to happen

a power vacuum? there might be a chance I can become the dictator.

 

[A Human Becoming]

An amendment that was created in the 1860s was designed to stop the use of a mechanism that did not exist till after the first World War? It was probably added to reassure investors that the United States would pay off its debt for the Civil War.

That's what I mean though. I forget where I read it, but from my understanding after the Civil War the Union was afraid that if the South got a majority in Congress they would use their power to take the government debt hostage as revenge for the refusal to pay back loans taken out by the Confederacy.

You're asking if the interest rate will change and want him to use the 14th amendment option? Markets will react negatively if he did and the rate will increase. Republicans do not hate America. They just see this as their chance to radically change it into what they want. The question is will Democrats stop them?

I meant any sort of deal. This whole situation seems to be lose-lose for everyone.

Thanks for the positive encouragement.

Has war benefited the country since World War II? Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan all seem like duds.

it's not beneficial to the common weal, but boy are those contractors rolling in dough

.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Would you call what they're doing now working with Obama? If they did impeach Obama, the senate would acquit him. Also, have you heard anyone say invoking the 14th Amendment could still hurt our AAA rating?

The credit agencies have said the rating will be in jeopardy without spending cuts (and a long term deal). So while no one has said the constitutional option will lead to it being lowered, it could certainly lead to it being lowered since it wouldn't address spending.

I agree, they aren't working with Obama in good faith. If he overrode them I'm just wondering if they decide not to do anything that's not required of them (war funding). They'd probably shut the government down in response, later this year. Although to be fair they'll probably do that anyway.

 

[maximum360]

Being a Republican I'm readily to admit that inorder to advert this retarded disaster we need compromises on both sides (adding taxes and cutting some social spending). We can't have our Senate Majority Leader saying this:



3 days before the fucking debt deadline. This is getting too close and too political.

*edit*





It's actually the opposite...

Republicans, want some cuts from SS, medicare/aid but the Democrats aren't budging. The Democrats want cuts in Military and higher taxes, but the Republicans don't want higher taxes. Basically the Democrats think we can cut spending without cutting spending in 3 of the top 4 highest spending programs and they want more taxes.

NPR reported yesterday on several countries adopting various methods to tackle the current economic crisis. I believe the UK (conservatives) have pushed through cuts as well as tax increases. The jury's still out on whether that will be successful but at least their conservative party is at least sane. I'd rather adopt a balanced approach as they did than roll the dice as they doing now.

 

[empty vessel]

The credit agencies have said the rating will be in jeopardy without spending cuts (and a long term deal).

That's not actually true. Well, one agency did, I think, but it was a small one. S&P seemed to say at one point that fiscal consolidation, i.e., deficit and debt reduction, was required. It explicitly said (as it must) that it took no position on how this was achieved, i.e., whether by spending cuts or revenue increases. But then S&P subsequently walked even that back and disclaimed that it would change the rating based on whether any fiscal consolidation was agreed upon, which of course is correct.

I've come to the conclusion personally that I don't care what the credit ratings agency say or do, because they cannot be trusted. It is more important that we independently show our credit to be good than to cater to the whims of a credit ratings agency, especially corrupt ones who have already shown themselves to act in their own best interests and not objectively.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Twitter informs me that the vote on Reid's bill is pushed 12 hours to let negotiations at the White House continue.

I'm not sure why we're continuing with the Kabuki votes in Congress at this hour. We all know and have known for a while that the end game is an Obama-negotiated deal that will speed through Congress, like the tax "compromise" late last year.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Would you call what they're doing now working with Obama? If they did impeach Obama, the senate would acquit him. Also, have you heard anyone say invoking the 14th Amendment could still hurt our AAA rating?

It's the latest rumor, I assume, stemming from the Republicans.

 

[airmangataosenai]

Twitter informs me that the vote on Reid's bill is pushed 12 hours to let negotiations at the White House continue.

I'm not sure why we're continuing with the Kabuki votes in Congress at this hour. We all know and have known for a while that the end game is an Obama-negotiated deal that will speed through Congress, like the tax "compromise" late last year.

What the fuck was Boehner thinking leaving the negotiations and then going on to try to pass a bill that not only ignored every single request made by Democrats, but was a bust on it's initial draft with his own party?

Is he just stupid or does he just not give a shit?

 

[maximum360]

Mitt Romney.

Seems like the dam is finally busting. Voters like Obama, but his record seems non-existent. The economy is cratering, people have given him 3 years to get something done to no results. Game over.

The sky falleth. Seriously though, it's way to early to call game over on Obama or make the case that any Republican candidate has a good chance at winning.

 

[eznark]

omg he is halting debate and scheduling a vote! have you no shame?!!!!

 

[eznark]

It's the latest rumor, I assume, stemming from the Republicans.

If the "source who knows how the ratings agencies works" said that the Boehner plan would still result in a downgrade because it didn't cut enough, why would a "deal" that cuts nothing not result in the exact same thing?

 

[empty vessel]

If the "source who knows how the ratings agencies works" said that the Boehner plan would still result in a downgrade because it didn't cut enough, why would a "deal" that cuts nothing not result in the exact same thing?

That wasn't about cuts, that was about the temporary nature of an extension, which at least has a lot more to do with stability and credit than spending cuts, which given the low level of spending has nothing at all objectively to do with it.

It'd be like me threatening not to make a payment on my debt every six months or so as set by the terms. I can't imagine creditors would appreciate it. But if I was spending a lot of money, but never even came close to skipping a beat on my payments, well, I don't think they really give a shit how much I spend. Especially if I had the power to instantly raise revenue at the snap of my fingers. But, if I had the power to raise that kind of revenue at the snap of my fingers, you might ask, why the fuck are you taking out loans? And I would say, precisely, jackass.

 

[Zabka]

If the "source who knows how the ratings agencies works" said that the Boehner plan would still result in a downgrade because it didn't cut enough, why would a "deal" that cuts nothing not result in the exact same thing?

I thought the main reason was because Boehner's bill would only cover 6 to 9 months of spending, then we'd be back in the same position we are now.

 

[fallagin]

omg he is halting debate and scheduling a vote! have you no shame?!!!!

Oh NO! Not the Nuclear option??!!

 

[eznark]

That wasn't about cuts, that was about the temporary nature of an extension, which at least has a lot more to do with stability and credit than spending cuts, which given the low level of spending has nothing at all objectively to do with it.

It'd be like me threatening not to pay my debts every six months or so. I can't imagine creditors would appreciate it. But if I was spending a lot of money, but never even came close to skipping a beat on my payments, well, I don't think they really give a shit how much I spend. Especially if I had the power to instantly raise revenue at the snap of my fingers.

That is not at all what Moody's said earlier this month.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8ce694a6-ad94-11e0-9038-00144feabdc0.html

S&P mentioned political risk, but Moody's specifically is looking for a plan to deal with the deficit.

 

[XMonkey]

Republicans do not hate America. They just see this as their chance to radically change it into what they want. The question is will Democrats stop them?

And what do the Republicans want?

Because from here it looks like they want to fuck over poor people at a time when they need help the most, while at the same time protecting the interests of those who are, far and away, the best off in this country. Democrats don't like to do the former, but they don't seem too concerned with raising taxes on the wealthy either.

 

[empty vessel]

That is not at all what Moody's said earlier this month.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8ce694a6-ad94-11e0-9038-00144feabdc0.html

S&P mentioned political risk, but Moody's specifically is looking for a plan to deal with the deficit.

I was looking at a cached version of the article you linked, so I don't know if it's different, but I didn't read what you suggest in the article I saw. There was a statement that, "If the debt ceiling is raised, we still look at the outcome of long-term deficit reductions," but that just sounded like a statement of general policy and not directed at the US in particular. The US has no long-term deficit issue. If this was an implied threat against the US, it was just an attempt at political influence and should be regarded as such. The continued threats by Republicans not to pay creditors is orders of magnitude more relevant to our reliability as a borrower than a make-believe deficit crisis.

I should add, if we do turn out to have a deficit and debt problem in the long run, it will lie at the foot of Republicans, first for racking up so much debt on wars, corporate welfare (Medicare Part D) and tax cuts, then for deregulating Wall Street (complicit with the Democrats in that of course) and causing a major economic recession, then for insisting on more tax cuts, and then for refusing to raise taxes and refusing to nationalize health insurance in the future.

 

[ToxicAdam]

same as it ever was:

“Almost without exception, these are people who feel that their greatest enemy is not the Soviet Union or communist China, but the government of the United States.They feel their worst enemies are other Americans who disagree with them. They are not equipped to deal with contradictory evidence; when it appears, they boo it and hiss it to make it go away," - the recently dead Warren Leslie, on the atmosphere in Dallas, Texas, before the Kennedy assassination.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Obama is collapsing. The democrats and republicans are collapsing. Revolution soon.

I still stand by my statement that you have asbergers or some type of mental handicap. Its the only explanation besides you being a 3rd rate troll.

 

[ToxicAdam]

Way to be ahead of the curve LS

 

[indigo-cyclops]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBsRvdHJUDk&feature=player_detailpage#t=15s

Talk of states separating from the Union etc reminds me of this episode of Mr. Show...

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Renewed negotiations on raising the U.S. debt ceiling caused Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid tonight to postpone a scheduled vote on his plan to avoid a threatened government default.

“There are negotiations going on at the White House now,” Reid said on the Senate floor, and those involved in the talks wanted more time before a vote was held on whether the Senate moved ahead with his measure.

Link

Well, at least they are all talking to each other

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Way to be ahead of the curve LS

I do my best, bruh.

 

[Jackson50]

poll numbers don't really matter right now i don't think. obama's approval will probably fluctuate wildly from now til election day.

You are correct. Current polls are worthless for predicting next year's election. They have no predictive power. If you want a bellwether for Obama's electoral prospects, examine the state of the economy. Of course, it is still early, so even that should be used cautiously. Hey, the economy could improve markedly. *snickers*

Nah, he'd still win since there isn't a Republican candidate worth putting in the White House who isn't batshit insane.

Blithe delusion.

Iraq decides that warplanes are better than food rations - buys 36 F-16s from the US

It is intended to assuage American anxiety regarding a possible troop extension. Really, al-Malikli is in a quandary. He wants to permit American troops to remain past 2011, but he must not fracture his coalition. Thus, he intends to affirm bilateral relations without angering the Sadrist List and their coalition partners. I think this is a ploy to retain soldiers as trainers and allow for additional contractors. Will the opponents of sustained American presence accept that? I doubt it.

 

[Piecake]

same as it ever was:

I find it kinda funny that AMC is playing JFK right now.

 

[mcnutty]

abc news says a tentative deal is done, but sam youngman on twitter has reported that dems are disputing it, and given the inaccurate leaks from the past week who the hell knows.

 

[PhoenixDark]

abc news says a tentative deal is done, but sam youngman on twitter has reported that dems are disputing it, and given the inaccurate leaks from the past week who the hell knows.

From that link

• Debt ceiling increase of up to $2.8 trillion
  
• Spending cuts of roughly $1 trillion
  
• Vote on the Balanced Budget Amendment
  
• Special committee to recommend cuts of $1.8 trillion (or whatever it takes to add up to the total of the debt ceiling increase)
  
• Committee must make recommendations before Thanksgiving recess
  
• If Congress does not approve those cuts by late December, automatic across-the-board cuts go into effect, including cuts to Defense and Medicare.

So, hostage taking by committee. What's to stop republicans from demanding ridiculous cuts that democrats cannot agree to, thus causing Medicare cuts in December.

 

[Diablos]

Debt ceiling increase of up to $2.8 trillion
Spending cuts of roughly $1 trillion
Vote on the Balanced Budget Amendment
Special committee to recommend cuts of $1.8 trillion (or whatever it takes to add up to the total of the debt ceiling increase)
Committee must make recommendations before Thanksgiving recess
If Congress does not approve those cuts by late December, automatic across-the-board cuts go into effect, including cuts to Defense and Medicare.

I'm confused, does this have anything to do with teh SUPER CONGRESS where Obama would have to vote on approving cuts on various things?

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

abc news says a tentative deal is done, but sam youngman on twitter has reported that dems are disputing it, and given the inaccurate leaks from the past week who the hell knows.

That's about the best deal available at this point. Dems don't want to cut medicare and Reps won't want to cut defense spending so that puts pressure on them to make the full cuts before December but because the debt ceiling has already been raised fully we won't have to go through this ordeal again in 6 months.

 

[empty vessel]

I would just like to state right now that the modern Republican party (2000-present), as far as I can tell, is the single most fiscally irresponsible party in American history. And it's not even close. They have insisted on spending trillions, have refused to raise revenue, have refused to take measures to curb and even roll back the single largest growth in government spending (health care), recklessly enacted laws that foreseeably would lead to a deep economic crash, and are now refusing even to pay for what they have agreed to spend. The irresponsibility is utterly mind-blowing.

And their solution is to punish working Americans as payment for their depraved fecklessness.

And Democrats? Well, they mostly agree with them. This is what dysfunctional society looks like, brought to you by American business.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

abc news says a tentative deal is done, but sam youngman on twitter has reported that dems are disputing it, and given the inaccurate leaks from the past week who the hell knows.

I'd love to find out what in their right mind thinks this will be acceptable to the tea party House or Lib Dems in the House.

 

[PhoenixDark]

That's about the best deal available at this point. Dems don't want to cut medicare and Reps won't want to cut defense spending so that puts pressure on them to make the full cuts before December but because the debt ceiling has already been raised fully we won't have to go through this ordeal again in 6 months.

From a pure political perspective I'm sure they'd have no problem trading defense cuts for Medicare cuts during the holiday season, with presidential primaries on the horizon; Obama gets the blame, and if republicans re-take the WH they can simply increase military spending with little problems.

There's no way I trust this committee idea. Might be the best deal possible (depending on what's in that trillion in cuts) though...

 

[Bishman]

If we replaced Obama with FDR or LBJ from the past to right now in the present... how would they overcome Republican opposition screaming "No! "?

 

[TacticalFox88]

If we replaced Obama with FDR or LBJ from the past to right now in the present... how would they overcome Republican opposition screaming "No! "?

Well...they wouldn't be black at least.

 

[Donthizz#]

If we replaced Obama with FDR or LBJ from the past to right now in the present... how would they overcome Republican opposition screaming "No! "?

they would say fuck compromise " we are not cutting social security "..

 

[Diablos]

If we replaced Obama with FDR or LBJ from the past to right now in the present... how would they overcome Republican opposition screaming "No! "?

They wouldn't. What Obama is dealing with is unprecedented.

 

[Measley]

If we replaced Obama with FDR or LBJ from the past to right now in the present... how would they overcome Republican opposition screaming "No! "?

They couldn't. The American populace has been poisoned by Fox News and general apathy. Which is how the GOP got rewarded for being obstructionists in the 2010 elections.

I would just like to state right now that the modern Republican party (2000-present), as far as I can tell, is the single most fiscally irresponsible party in American history. And it's not even close. They have insisted on spending trillions, have refused to raise revenue, have refused to take measures to curb and even roll back the single largest growth in government spending (health care), recklessly enacted laws that foreseeably would lead to a deep economic crash, and are now refusing even to pay for what they have agreed to spend. The irresponsibility is utterly mind-blowing.

Couldn't agree more. The saddest part are the working and middle class chumps who are die-hard conservatives, and refuse to see how badly they've been had.

 

[SlipperySlope]

So Reid was wrong earlier when he said there wasn't a move toward compromise.