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[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

They couldn't. The American populace has been poisoned by Fox News and general apathy. Which is how the GOP got rewarded for being obstructionists in the 2010 elections.



Couldn't agree more. The saddest part are the working and middle class chumps who are die-hard conservatives, and refuse to see how badly they've been had.

That gosh darned Fox News. They spoil everything.

 

[Dr. Pangloss]

And what do the Republicans want?
Because from here it looks like they want to fuck over poor people at a time when they need help the most, while at the same time protecting the interests of those who are, far and away, the best off in this country. Democrats don't like to do the former, but they don't seem too concerned with raising taxes on the wealthy either.

I agree with you. Today's Republicans believe that government just gets in the way and provides no benefit to society except maybe protection. But they never run on this. They always say they'll protect Medicare and Social Security for the future. Never mentioning that this involves radically changing them through privatization. Their party is built on message control more than truth. At least when you vote Democrat you know what you are getting. You know they want the government to provide these services, and they are willing to insure they exist even if it involves higher taxes. Republicans hope to achieve their ends by marketing techniques or other means like starving the beast. And people go along with it because they have lost faith in our government and feel like they have more control with their money in a private enterprise. Just look at the many posts here lamenting the Democrats giving in to the Republicans, and you can understand why some do not trust our government.

It's always been about the illusion of how much control you have. I'm optimistic that no matter how bad things seem somethings will never change like Medicare. No way we can go back to allowing the elderly being at the mercy of insurance companies. Too much political pressure for that to happen. As the saying goes, "Elections come and go, but entitlements are forever." Also, whatever happens this year can change the next. Who knows what is around the corner. Republicans might really over reach like their governors in Ohio, Florida, and Wisconsin have demonstrated.

same as it ever was:

Once in a Lifetime

 

[A Human Becoming]

From that link


So, hostage taking by committee. What's to stop republicans from demanding ridiculous cuts that democrats cannot agree to, thus causing Medicare cuts in December.

What's stopping them is cuts to Defense, which is the Medicare for the Republican party.

EDIT: Saw your second post

From a pure political perspective I'm sure they'd have no problem trading defense cuts for Medicare cuts during the holiday season, with presidential primaries on the horizon; Obama gets the blame, and if republicans re-take the WH they can simply increase military spending with little problems.

There's no way I trust this committee idea. Might be the best deal possible (depending on what's in that trillion in cuts) though...

I can't see Republicans, under any circumstance, allowing for Defense cuts. Defense contractors need their money.

 

[empty vessel]

That gosh darned Fox News. They spoil everything.

That's why it exists, to manipulate Americans. It has been quite effective.

What's stopping them is cuts to Defense, which is the Medicare for the Republican party.

Almost all of which is direct or indirect business subsidy.

 

[GhaleonEB]

So, hostage taking by committee. What's to stop republicans from demanding ridiculous cuts that democrats cannot agree to, thus causing Medicare cuts in December.

Nothing, and I'm sure that's their plan. Dems are reportedly pushing to include automatic tax increases on interests the GOP supports (namely, the wealthy) as a cudgel to make them cooperate on the subsequent committee recommendations.

Dems will cave, we'll get all cuts and they will be terrible. That's the pattern we all know too well.

 

[PhoenixDark]

What's stopping them is cuts to Defense, which is the Medicare for the Republican party.

EDIT: Saw your second post



I can't see Republicans, under any circumstance, allowing for Defense cuts. Defense contractors need their money.

Defense cuts aren't sacred enough to stop republicans from neutralizing the Medicare/Ryan issue by forcing cuts. They'll just run ads saying Obama cut Medicare and defense.

 

[GaimeGuy]

oh sweet, with automatic spending cuts bullshit, hostage taking is set up for the repubs AGAIN.

FUCK THE GOP.

And this plan is worse than anything obama proposed, offering fewer cuts.

So fucking stupid.

 

[GaimeGuy]

oh, and "The Talk" by LBJ wouldn't be effective nowadays because the GOP leaders could hide behind the media or run crawling back to them. The majority of leveraging is done through spouting your bullshit on fox news and limbaugh nowadays, not in your one on one talks with the opposition.

 

[YoungHav]

I wish Bill Gates just led a coup and took over the government. The corporate hack politicians could either leave the country or be imprisoned for decades.

 

[Dr. Pangloss]

oh, and "The Talk" by LBJ wouldn't be effective nowadays because the GOP leaders could hide behind the media or run crawling back to them. The majority of leveraging is done through spouting your bullshit on fox news and limbaugh nowadays, not in your one on one talks with the opposition.

I read an interesting article a while back about how campaigning has change in America. Back in LBJ's day there was a season to campaign and then after the election it was time to governor. Now a days the parties are in constant campaign mode trying to control the narrative. The 24 hour news cycle has definitely done a number on our way of governing. It does not take even an hour before some group on either side can look at the legislation and start demonstrating against it. No real debate happens anymore. It's all about not pissing off the wrong amount of people. That's all that matters when you have groups like Club for Growth and the Chamber of Congress now rating your votes. I'm sure all of those Democrats who voted against Boehner's bill are against growth.

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

why couldnt you have done that before 2000?

By the time we realized what was happening it was already too late.

 

[Bishman]

I don't know about anyone else but I'll never vote Republican in my lifetime. When I was young, learning about Ronald Reagan to George W. Bush - it's apparent that Republicans are the biggest hypocritical ever in political history. They are a f'ing joke! And it pisses me off as a liberal that we can never fully win. Health care - no public option. Stimulus - too small. Bush tax cuts - we still got 'em. Why can't Democrats study what Republicans do well PR wise and use it against them? I felt like if the liberals here on GAF was in control of the Democratic Party... this country would be center-left. I can't be the only one who is starting to feel hopeless about the future of America.

 

[tokkun]

So, hostage taking by committee. What's to stop republicans from demanding ridiculous cuts that democrats cannot agree to, thus causing Medicare cuts in December.

What's to stop Democrats from demanding ridiculous terms that Republicans cannot agree to, thus causing Defense cuts? You may note that the linked article goes on to say that the size of the Defense cuts in the trigger are much larger than the Medicare cuts.

Well, we don't know for certain what such a committee would recommend. However, if we look at the recommendations from the last two bipartisan groups that have tackled this topic - Obama's bipartisan debt reduction committee and the Gang of Six - both have recommended plans that included both increased revenue through tax reform and cuts to entitlement programs. I would feel good about such an approach as long as there are no tea party members on the committee.

 

[TacticalFox88]

I don't know about anyone else but I'll never vote Republican in my lifetime. When I was young, learning about Ronald Reagan to George W. Bush - it's apparent that Republicans are the biggest hypocritical ever in political history. They are a f'ing joke! And it pisses me off as a liberal that we can never fully win. Health care - no public option. Stimulus - too small. Bush tax cuts - we still got 'em. Why can't Democrats study what Republicans do well PR wise and use it against them? I felt like if the liberals here on GAF was in control of the Democratic Party... this country would be center-left. I can't be the only one who is starting to feel hopeless about the future of America.

Ronald Reagan's rhetoric, policies, and bullshit lies, about "liberals" is one of the huge factors of why politics is SO fucked in this country.

 

[Bishman]

 

[Piecake]

What's to stop Democrats from demanding ridiculous terms that Republicans cannot agree to, thus causing Defense cuts? You may note that the linked article goes on to say that the size of the Defense cuts in the trigger are much larger than the Medicare cuts.

Well, we don't know for certain what such a committee would recommend. However, if we look at the recommendations from the last two bipartisan groups that have tackled this topic - Obama's bipartisan debt reduction committee and the Gang of Six - both have recommended plans that included both increased revenue through tax reform and cuts to entitlement programs. I would feel good about such an approach as long as there are no tea party members on the committee.

Yea, sadly, a committee might be the only way we are going to get a balanced, decently conceived plan, mostly because itll give the politicians who vote for it distance. If it turns out to be unpopular with their constituents in the primary/election, they can blame the committee and say they had to go along with it because if they didnt, it would mean massive cuts to the military.

Well, if this committee is banned from recommending revenue increases, then I'd say its total crap

 

[happyfunball]

- Debt ceiling increase of up to $2.8 trillion
- Spending cuts of roughly $1 trillion
- Vote on the Balanced Budget Amendment
- Special committee to recommend cuts of $1.8 trillion (or whatever it takes to add up to the total of the debt ceiling increase)
- Committee must make recommendations before Thanksgiving recess
- If Congress does not approve those cuts by late December, automatic across-the-board cuts go into effect, including cuts to Defense and Medicare.

What an awful deal for the American public, I guess that means it's real.

What is it going to take to find some Democrats that are able to negotiate with some cajones against the Corporatists?

 

[Wall]

Yea, sadly, a committee might be the only way we are going to get a balanced, decently conceived plan, mostly because itll give the politicians who vote for it distance. If it turns out to be unpopular with their constituents in the primary/election, they can blame the committee and say they had to go along with it because if they didnt, it would mean massive cuts to the military.

Any of the plans put forth by the special committees are going to be way too tilted towards cuts though. I'm still unclear whether the committee they are talking about would be targeted at entitlement "reform", or if this is a different committee, but, leaving aside the fact that we shouldn't even be talking about raising taxes or cutting spending during a depressed economy, all of these deals are way to the right of sound policy, or where the public stands on the issue. People always say they want to cut the deficit, and they don't like taxes being raised, but when you poll them on the specifics, they always indicate that they prefer tax hikes to cutting medicare, medicaid, and social security.

In light of facts such as those illustrated by this graph:

it is clear that plans that are 3 parts spending cuts to 1 part revenue increases are way too weighted towards cuts.

 

[besada]

Ronald Reagan's rhetoric, policies, and bullshit lies, about "liberals" is one of the huge factors of why politics is SO fucked in this country.

Watch out, you'll have the Reagan defense team on your ass shortly. Can't speak ill of Old Mother Reagan.

 

[Gaborn]

What an awful deal for the American public, I guess that means it's real.

What is it going to take to find some Democrats that are able to negotiate with some cajones against the Corporatists?

... you do realize that a good number of Democrats are Corporatists, right? It's no accident that the Insurance industry LOVED the health care bill. Or that Democrats and Republicans LOVED the bank bailouts, etc etc etc. Neither party is particularly immune from corrupting influences and you're making it sound like they just need some BACKBONE and then they can oppose the OTHER PEOPLE that are corporatists, rather than the fact that they are corporatists themselves.

 

[XMonkey]

http://static01.mediaite.com/med/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/poll.jpg
http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/0/0/1/0/1/6/9/8/5/yep-49451180079.jpeg
http://www.ourfuture.org/files/images/social-security-large-majorities.png

Definitely one of the most frustrating things about this whole shitstorm. I'd say this bodes well for 2012, but I have no more faith in the American electorate.

What is it going to take to find some Democrats that are able to negotiate with some cajones against the Corporatists?

It's a rare breed of Democrat who will actually stand up to corporations nowadays.

 

[besada]

It's a rare breed of Democrat who will actually stand up to corporations nowadays.

Are there any other than Bernie Sanders, the Democratic Caucus's answer to Ron Paul? Each party has to one earnest, utterly ineffectual member. Bernie, lord love him, is ours.

 

[happyfunball]

Watch out, you'll have the Reagan defense team on your ass shortly. Can't speak ill of Old Mother Reagan.

The perfect mix of dumb and charisma is too much for them to refuse.

 

[XMonkey]

Are there any other than Bernie Sanders, the Democratic Caucus's answer to Ron Paul. each party has to one earnest, utterly ineffectual member. Bernie, lord love him, is ours.

I like Franken a lot. Bernie is the example all democrats need to strive for, though.

 

[Oblivion]

Russ Feingold was pretty awesome too, but he's not there anymore.

 

[besada]

The perfect mix of dumb and charisma is too much for them to refuse.

If PoliGAF had a like button, I would have just smashed the screen on my iPad.

 

[Piecake]

I like Franken a lot. Bernie is the example all democrats need to strive for, though.

Paul Wellstone was the man. It was a sad day when his plane went down

 

[happyfunball]

... you do realize that a good number of Democrats are Corporatists, right? It's no accident that the Insurance industry LOVED the health care bill. Or that Democrats and Republicans LOVED the bank bailouts, etc etc etc. Neither party is particularly immune from corrupting influences and you're making it sound like they just need some BACKBONE and then they can oppose the OTHER PEOPLE that are corporatists, rather than the fact that they are corporatists themselves.

Absolutely, I worded it purposefully. The Corporatists in the Dems are much of the reason the legislation was so watered-down from 2009-2011.

However, it would be a false equivalence to say that both parties are equal in this regard. Or at the very least, the Dems put up a good facade of being rational individuals attempting to forward legislation for the public good.

 

[TacticalFox88]

Paul Wellstone was the man. It was a sad day when his plane went down

Wiener too...until....you know.... Why HIM!? FUCK! I would love to hear what he would have to say about this bullshit.

 

[Gaborn]

Absolutely, I worded it purposefully. The Corporatists in the Dems are much of the reason the legislation was so watered-down from 2009-2011.

However, it would be a false equivalence to say that both parties are equal in this regard. Or at the very least, the Dems put up a good facade of being rational individuals attempting to forward legislation for the public good.

Isn't that the point though? They put up a face but look at their policies. If you asked the average Democrat today what they think of the PATRIOT Act you'd get a response very similar to my own about how it should never have been passed, gives too much power and discretion to law enforcement and is most likely unconstitutional. Yet it was supported overwhelmingly by congress, Dems and Reps alike. You say it's a "false equivalence" to say that both parties are equal in this regard but I don't see it.

Yes both parties have different focuses and they're certainly in bed with a different constellation of interest groups and corporations but that's not an argument for or against corporatism, that's an argument about "my corporatists are better than YOUR corporatists" (I'm using "your" here in a loose sense, as a libertarian I hate both parties). I think people from both parties make a mistake in assuming their own party's shit doesn't stink. It's one thing to think a particular party might be better on a specific issue you care about (though in most cases I think you would end up sorely disappointed with both parties) but let's not pretend that one party is so significantly against corporatism.

 

[Bishman]

So, you’re a Tea Party-Republican that hates taxes? Well, since you do not like taxes or government, please kindly do the following.

1. Do not use Medicare.
2. Do not use Social Security.
3. Do not become a member of the US military, who are paid with tax dollars.
4. Do not ask the National Guard to help you after a disaster.
5. Do not call 911 when you get hurt.
6. Do not call the police to stop intruders in your home.
7. Do not summon the fire department to save your burning home.
8. Do not drive on any paved road, highway, and interstate or drive on any bridge.
9. Do not use public restrooms.
10. Do not send your kids to public schools.
11. Do not put your trash out for city garbage collectors.
12. Do not live in areas with clean air.
13. Do not drink clean water.
14. Do not visit National Parks.
15. Do not visit public museums, zoos, and monuments.
16. Do not eat or use FDA inspected food and medicines.
17. Do not bring your kids to public playgrounds.
18. Do not walk or run on sidewalks.
19. Do not use public recreational facilities such as basketball and tennis courts.
20. Do not seek shelter facilities or food in soup kitchens when you are homeless and hungry.
21. Do not apply for educational or job training assistance when you lose your job.
22. Do not apply for food stamps when you can’t feed your children.
23. Do not use the judiciary system for any reason.
24. Do not ask for an attorney when you are arrested and do not ask for one to be assigned to you by the court.
25. Do not apply for any Pell Grants.
26. Do not use cures that were discovered by labs using federal dollars.
27. Do not fly on federally regulated airplanes.
28. Do not use any product that can trace its development back to NASA.
29. Do not watch the weather provided by the National Weather Service.
30. Do not listen to severe weather warnings from the National Weather Service.
31. Do not listen to tsunami, hurricane, or earthquake alert systems.
32. Do not apply for federal housing.
33. Do not use the internet, which was developed by the military.
34. Do not swim in clean rivers.
35. Do not allow your child to eat school lunches or breakfasts.
36. Do not ask for FEMA assistance when everything you own gets wiped out by disaster.
37. Do not ask the military to defend your life and home in the event of a foreign invasion.
38. Do not use your cell phone or home telephone.
39. Do not buy firearms that wouldn’t have been developed without the support of the US Government and military. That includes most of them.
40. Do not eat USDA inspected produce and meat.
41. Do not apply for government grants to start your own business.
42. Do not apply to win a government contract.
43. Do not buy any vehicle that has been inspected by government safety agencies.
44. Do not buy any product that is protected from poisons, toxins, etc…by the Consumer Protection Agency.
45. Do not save your money in a bank that is FDIC insured.
46. Do not use Veterans benefits or military health care.
47. Do not use the G.I. Bill to go to college.
48. Do not apply for unemployment benefits.
49. Do not use any electricity from companies regulated by the Department of Energy.
50. Do not live in homes that are built to code.
51. Do not run for public office. Politicians are paid with taxpayer dollars.
52. Do not ask for help from the FBI, S.W.A.T, the bomb squad, Homeland Security, State troopers, etc…
53. Do not apply for any government job whatsoever as all state and federal employees are paid with tax dollars.
54. Do not use public libraries.
55. Do not use the US Postal Service.
56. Do not visit the National Archives.
57. Do not visit Presidential Libraries.
58. Do not use airports that are secured by the federal government.
59. Do not apply for loans from any bank that is FDIC insured.
60. Do not ask the government to help you clean up after a tornado.
61. Do not ask the Department of Agriculture to provide a subsidy to help you run your farm.
62. Do not take walks in National Forests.
63. Do not ask for taxpayer dollars for your oil company.
64. Do not ask the federal government to bail your company out during recessions.
65. Do not seek medical care from places that use federal dollars.
66. Do not use Medicaid.
67. Do not use WIC.
68. Do not use electricity generated by Hoover Dam.
69. Do not use electricity or any service provided by the Tennessee Valley Authority.
70. Do not ask the Army Corps of Engineers to rebuild levees when they break.
71. Do not let the Coast Guard save you from drowning when your boat capsizes at sea.
72. Do not ask the government to help evacuate you when all hell breaks loose in the country you are in.
73. Do not visit historic landmarks.
74. Do not visit fisheries.
75. Do not expect to see animals that are federally protected because of the Endangered Species List.
76. Do not expect plows to clear roads of snow and ice so your kids can go to school and so you can get to work.
77. Do not hunt or camp on federal land.
78. Do not work anywhere that has a safe workplace because of government regulations.
79. Do not use public transportation.
80. Do not drink water from public water fountains.
81. Do not whine when someone copies your work and sells it as their own. Government enforces copyright laws.
82. Do not expect to own your home, car, or boat. Government organizes and keeps all titles.
83. Do not expect convicted felons to remain off the streets.
84. Do not eat in restaurants that are regulated by food quality and safety standards.
85. Do not seek help from the US Embassy if you need assistance in a foreign nation.
86. Do not apply for a passport to travel outside of the United States.
87. Do not apply for a patent when you invent something.
88. Do not adopt a child through your local, state, or federal governments.
89.Do not use elevators that have been inspected by federal or state safety regulators.
90. Do not use any resource that was discovered by the USGS.
91. Do not ask for energy assistance from the government.
92. Do not move to any other developed nation, because the taxes are much higher.
93. Do not go to a beach that is kept clean by the state.
94. Do not use money printed by the US Treasury.
95. Do not complain when millions more illegal immigrants cross the border because there are no more border patrol agents.
96. Do not attend a state university.
97. Do not see any doctor that is licensed through the state.
98. Do not use any water from municipal water systems.
99. Do not complain when diseases and viruses, that were once fought around the globe by the US government and CDC, reach your house.
100. Do not work for any company that is required to pay its workers a livable wage, provide them sick days, vacation days, and benefits.
101. Do not expect to be able to vote on election days. Government provides voting booths, election day officials, and voting machines which are paid for with taxes.
102. Do not ride trains. The railroad was built with government financial assistance.

The fact is, we pay for the lifestyle we expect. Without taxes, our lifestyles would be totally different and much harder. America would be a third world country. The less we pay, the less we get in return. Americans pay less taxes today since 1958 and is ranked 32nd out of 34 of the top tax paying countries. Chile and Mexico are 33rd and 34th. The Tea Party-Republicans are lying when they say that we pay the highest taxes in the world and are only attacking taxes to reward corporations and the wealthy and to weaken our infrastructure and way of life. So next time you object to paying taxes or fight to abolish taxes for corporations and the wealthy, keep this quote in mind…

“I like to pay taxes. With them, I buy civilization.” ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes​

Tea party + Republicans are jokes.

 

[Averon]

Democrats are slaves to corporations as much as the GOP is. HCR and Financial reform made that clear. The only difference is that Dems are willing to throw the lower/middle class a bone.

 

[empty vessel]

In light of facts such as those illustrated by this graph:

it is clear that plans that are 3 parts spending cuts to 1 part revenue increases are way too weighted towards cuts.

I'm not fond of quoting images, but this deserves it because, goddamnit, Turkey is a more progressive country than the US. Turkey is a more progressive country than the US. And about to get even more progressive, relatively. Turkey has a better government than the US. Just to repeat, Turkey is a better protector of its citizens than the US.

 

[TacticalFox88]

So, you’re a Tea Party-Republican that hates taxes? Well, since you do not like taxes or government, please kindly do the following.

*epic list*​

Holy SHIT. And you got people who want to privatize a good 90 percent of that. SMH.​

 

[Gaborn]

So, you’re a Tea Party-Republican that hates taxes? Well, since you do not like taxes or government, please kindly do the following.

*snip*

The fact is, we pay for the lifestyle we expect. Without taxes, our lifestyles would be totally different and much harder. America would be a third world country. The less we pay, the less we get in return. Americans pay less taxes today since 1958 and is ranked 32nd out of 34 of the top tax paying countries. Chile and Mexico are 33rd and 34th. The Tea Party-Republicans are lying when they say that we pay the highest taxes in the world and are only attacking taxes to reward corporations and the wealthy and to weaken our infrastructure and way of life. So next time you object to paying taxes or fight to abolish taxes for corporations and the wealthy, keep this quote in mind…

“I like to pay taxes. With them, I buy civilization.” ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes​

Tea party + Republicans are jokes.

I'm not a Tea Partier or a Republican but it seems to me there is a false premise there that if you oppose the current level of government spending you MUST oppose all government or all government programs, and if you think one government program should be eliminated you think ALL government programs should be eliminated. I don't see the logical connection for example between, say, cutting the Pentagon's budget by a MINIMUM of 30% which I support and cutting people off from food stamps, which I wouldn't support. I also don't understand why, if someone has paid their local taxes they should, because they want to reduce the size of government refuse police, fire, or medical services in an emergency.

What this list instead seems to be is an unfocused, poorly thought out attempt to use ad hominem to make the point that government is pervasive, and that the pervasiveness of government is OFTEN good. I can see some things on that list I support, some I think should be eliminated. Fortunately I'm free to have my own assortment of opinions for what I support and what I oppose, I see no logical connection for example between the National Guard and Public Libraries. Or Public Universities and the National Weather Service such that IF you support one you MUST support the other, or vice versa.

Also, copyright laws? Really? What a stupid list.

 

[Clevinger]

Democrats are slaves to corporations as much as the GOP is. HCR and Financial reform made that clear. The only difference is that Dems are willing to throw the lower/middle class a bone.

I don't think that's true; fully, at least. If you didn't have individuals like Baucus and Lieberman and Nelson gutting the bill, it would have been much, much, much better. Unfortunately for us, due to the filibuster, a few bad apples can ruin the whole thing.

 

[Diablos]

Anyone think the GOP splitting up in the next 10-20 years is possible?

 

[TacticalFox88]

Anyone think the GOP splitting up in the next 10-20 years is possible?

God, I wish. But...a bigger thing is to do everything humanly possible to keep Repbulicans from tainting the White House for the next decade or so to undo their fuck ups.

 

[Wall]

Democrats are slaves to corporations as much as the GOP is. HCR and Financial reform made that clear. The only difference is that Dems are willing to throw the lower/middle class a bone.

One unfortunate byproduct of the debt ceiling debate is that it might indirectly raise the stature of the Senate over the House, which will strengthen the position of the corporatists, especially the corporatist democrats, because there are so many choke points in that body where an individual member can hold up legislation. The filibuster, for example, needs to go. Forget the impediment that it presents to progressives, it is now even blocking the basic functioning of government. There are a number of appointed positions in the Obama administration, for example, that are currently unfilled. I can't even imagine the shitstorm that will erupt if a conservative Supreme Court justice dies.

 

[happyfunball]

Isn't that the point though? They put up a face but look at their policies. If you asked the average Democrat today what they think of the PATRIOT Act you'd get a response very similar to my own about how it should never have been passed, gives too much power and discretion to law enforcement and is most likely unconstitutional. Yet it was supported overwhelmingly by congress, Dems and Reps alike. You say it's a "false equivalence" to say that both parties are equal in this regard but I don't see it.

Yes both parties have different focuses and they're certainly in bed with a different constellation of interest groups and corporations but that's not an argument for or against corporatism, that's an argument about "my corporatists are better than YOUR corporatists" (I'm using "your" here in a loose sense, as a libertarian I hate both parties). I think people from both parties make a mistake in assuming their own party's shit doesn't stink. It's one thing to think a particular party might be better on a specific issue you care about (though in most cases I think you would end up sorely disappointed with both parties) but let's not pretend that one party is so significantly against corporatism.

I appreciate your perspective but I still feel the influence of corporations is lessened in the Democratic party possibly due to continued influence by union dollars. The heavy attack of unions by the Reps only underscores the continued importance of union support.

It does appear, however, that corporations will continue to gain power unrestricted in the near term and I can't imagine what can impede it.

Our only hope is to push science, clone a few thousand Teddy Roosevelts and get the Bull Moose Party back in business.

 

[empty vessel]

Anyone think the GOP splitting up in the next 10-20 years is possible?

I don't know. The last time it was this radical, it eliminated slavery and survived to tell the tale. It had to fight a war to do it, though. No party has been this radical since that time. (Of course, there's a quite substantial substantive difference between that radical Republican party and this one.)

 

[Wall]

I'm not a Tea Partier or a Republican but it seems to me there is a false premise there that if you oppose the current level of government spending you MUST oppose all government or all government programs, and if you think one government program should be eliminated you think ALL government programs should be eliminated. I don't see the logical connection for example between, say, cutting the Pentagon's budget by a MINIMUM of 30% which I support and cutting people off from food stamps, which I wouldn't support. I also don't understand why, if someone has paid their local taxes they should, because they want to reduce the size of government refuse police, fire, or medical services in an emergency.

What this list instead seems to be is an unfocused, poorly thought out attempt to use ad hominem to make the point that government is pervasive, and that the pervasiveness of government is OFTEN good. I can see some things on that list I support, some I think should be eliminated. Fortunately I'm free to have my own assortment of opinions for what I support and what I oppose, I see no logical connection for example between the National Guard and Public Libraries. Or Public Universities and the National Weather Service such that IF you support one you MUST support the other, or vice versa.

Also, copyright laws? Really? What a stupid list.

The problem comes when people, rather than looking at the budget and educating themselves as to where certain deficits arise, simply posit that there is some vast amount of "waste" out there that, if it were only eliminated, would allow us to keep programs like medicare/medicaid/social security/education/defence/pick your favorite as they there while simultaneously either keeping tax rates the same or lowering them.

I think that fallacy drives contributes a huge portion to the incoherance and instability of our politics. Unfortunately the media usually does nothing to correct this problem, and, to be fair, it is a myth that is promoted by all sides.

 

[Averon]

Anyone think the GOP splitting up in the next 10-20 years is possible?

I don't know. But the GOP as they operate today isn't sustainable.

 

[Bishman]

I'm not a Tea Partier or a Republican but it seems to me there is a false premise there that if you oppose the current level of government spending you MUST oppose all government or all government programs, and if you think one government program should be eliminated you think ALL government programs should be eliminated. I don't see the logical connection for example between, say, cutting the Pentagon's budget by a MINIMUM of 30% which I support and cutting people off from food stamps, which I wouldn't support. I also don't understand why, if someone has paid their local taxes they should, because they want to reduce the size of government refuse police, fire, or medical services in an emergency.

What this list instead seems to be is an unfocused, poorly thought out attempt to use ad hominem to make the point that government is pervasive, and that the pervasiveness of government is OFTEN good. I can see some things on that list I support, some I think should be eliminated. Fortunately I'm free to have my own assortment of opinions for what I support and what I oppose, I see no logical connection for example between the National Guard and Public Libraries. Or Public Universities and the National Weather Service such that IF you support one you MUST support the other, or vice versa.

Also, copyright laws? Really? What a stupid list.

Republicans better not talk about budgets. Budgets? Republicans are the reason why the economy is in the gutter. Clinton balanced the budget. Dubya erased it and put two wars on a credit card.

End the Bush tax cuts.
Cut war spending.
Cut defense spending.

Problem solved.

Why are they even bring up student loans and pell grants? Social security?

 

[Oblivion]

Just like to chime in randomly and mention that Kelly O'donnell is pretty damn smokin.

 

[Gaborn]

The problem comes when people, rather than looking at the budget and educating themselves as to where certain deficits arise, simply posit that there is some vast amount of "waste" out there that, if it were only eliminated, would allow us to keep programs like medicare/medicaid/social security/education/defence/pick your favorite as they there while simultaneously either keeping tax rates the same or lowering them.

I think that fallacy drives contributes a huge portion to the incoherance and instability of our politics. Unfortunately the media usually does nothing to correct this problem, and, to be fair, it is a myth that is promoted by all sides.

I think in part that depends on your definition of what "waste" is. I think we can all agree that "unnecessary" spending needs to be cut, but again, slippery! We agree that programs that duplicate the function of other agencies are wasteful, where found. We MIGHT agree that programs that have been wholly ineffective should be cut.

Still, you're right. Combing through the budget and JUST cutting out waste isn't enough. At the end of the day if nothing changes drastically the majority of the budget WILL be consumed by medicare/medicaid and to a lesser extent social security. We've GOT to address these problems and the sooner we do it in a serious way the less painful it will be. Saying they're not a problem because the issue is still 20-30 years away from being totally unmanageable is ignoring our trajectory. I should add that defense spending doesn't help at all either and needs to be DRASTICALLY cut. But defense spending cuts alone are not going to solve the underlying problem that our current set up for entitlements is not going to be sustainable.

 

[Piecake]

I think in part that depends on your definition of what "waste" is. I think we can all agree that "unnecessary" spending needs to be cut, but again, slippery! We agree that programs that duplicate the function of other agencies are wasteful, where found. We MIGHT agree that programs that have been wholly ineffective should be cut.

Still, you're right. Combing through the budget and JUST cutting out waste isn't enough. At the end of the day if nothing changes drastically the majority of the budget WILL be consumed by medicare/medicaid and to a lesser extent social security. We've GOT to address these problems and the sooner we do it in a serious way the less painful it will be. Saying they're not a problem because the issue is still 20-30 years away from being totally unmanageable is ignoring our trajectory. I should add that defense spending doesn't help at all either and needs to be DRASTICALLY cut. But defense spending cuts alone are not going to solve the underlying problem that our current set up for entitlements is not going to be sustainable.

I got your solution to medicare right here. Nationalized Health care

 

[happyfunball]

Just like to chime in randomly and mention that Kelly O'donnell is pretty damn smokin.

Just as an aside to that, looking in Google images to see who Kelly O'donnell is and I came across this picture of the Kooch.

Maybe because its 3AM but it took me a minute to realize that the blue thing isn't his leg coming up trying to dry hump the old guy.

 

[Gaborn]

I got your solution to medicare right here. Nationalized Health care

No. We can't afford that either, nor is anyone willing to cut the military to a level that would even come CLOSE to allowing us to afford it.

 

[Piecake]

No. We can't afford that either, nor is anyone willing to cut the military to a level that would even come CLOSE to allowing us to afford it.

Afford? Nationalized health care would be a hell of a lot cheaper than the horrific system we have in place