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PoliGAF 2011: Of Weiners, Boehners, Santorum, and Teabags

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Chichikov

Member
RustyNails said:
Compromising involves having a slightly flaccid penis as opposed to a raging boner
You're saying Harry Reid is not a limp dick?
He's seriously one of the most incompetent politicians I have ever seen, the guy is just HORRIBLE at his job.
 
Measley said:
Part of the reason Proposition 8 passed in California was because of the black vote.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/06/AR2008110603880.html

Blacks don't like gay people.

Ignoring your inflammatory last sentence, I didn't say that African-Americans and Hispanics weren't socially conservative; if I wasn't clear enough, I meant that there's no evidence that social issues drive their votes for candidates for elected office. Because we all know how they went for McCain in huge numbers, right?

Some worthwhile reading on that point:

Focused far more on job creation, health care and education than on gay marriage, black voters aren't supporting conservative candidates simply because they oppose LGBT rights. Instead, they are voting for progressive pro-LGBT candidates — despite disagreeing with their pro-LGBT platforms.

"The truth is, we just don't see blacks voting against a candidate based on [his or her] support of gay marriage," says Patrick Egan, assistant professor of politics and public policy at New York University. "We actually don't see this becoming an important issue for voters of any race."

Nonetheless, African Americans do skew conservative when voting for explicitly anti-LGBT initiatives such as Proposition 8, Egan notes. "But once you take church attendance into account, the numbers are not all that different" for blacks and equally religious White voters. In fact, trade the word "marriage" for "civil unions/domestic partnerships," and blacks are actually slightly more favorable than the general population toward legal recognition of same-sex relationships, according to a 2009 poll by the Third Way, a centrist-progressive think tank in Washington, D.C.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
Y2Kev said:
I have to say I don't like the compromise but Obama is wearing the crown of thorns here. We cannot afford to default (or get downgraded, more seriously). If you are playing chicken with crazy people, you have to lose. It is unfortunate that we did not vote in the last cycle and are being punished with these Shit Tacos in congress, but it is what it is.

Sticking to principle here would hurt so many Americans (and non-Americans) that I am at least sympathetic, unlike with some of his other "compromises."
One of my main problems with Obama is that he has refused to call out the crazy for what it is. Rather than declare, "we have no choice but to eat shit tacos because I'm dealing with unreasonable chefs and this is all they'll make or we starve", he tries to pitch them as being good for us.

He'll be framing this massive set of concessions as a grand bargain. It's not what he wanted, but it's ultimately good for the country, Republicans and Democrats came together, etc. Perhaps a bit of finger waving over brinkmanship, but that's about it. He's got the bully pulpit, but won't use it to call out bad legislation that he has no choice but to sign.

I got an email from Obama for American (his campaign operation) asking me to help build support for the tax cut deal at the end of last year. He wanted me to recommend the shit tacos.

I like shredded beef tacos, myself.
Skiptastic said:
Just wanted to pop in and say how shocked I was to see emptyvessel on the front page of the Drudge Report. You've finally made it big, ev! :) <3
I refuse to visit Drudge Report, can someone let me in on the joke?

Edit: thanks.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
GhaleonEB said:
One of my main problems with Obama is that he has refused to call out the crazy for what it is. Rather than declare, "we have no choice but to eat shit tacos because I'm dealing with unreasonable chefs and this is all they'll make or we starve", he tries to pitch them as being good for us.

He'll be framing this massive set of concessions as a grand bargain. It's not what he wanted, but it's ultimately good for the country, Republicans and Democrats came together, etc. Perhaps a bit of finger waving over brinkmanship, but that's about it. He's got the bully pulpit, but won't use it to call out bad legislation that he has no choice but to sign.

I got an email from Obama for American (his campaign operation) asking me to help build support for the tax cut deal at the end of last year. He wanted me to recommend the shit tacos.

I like shredded beef tacos, myself.

I refuse to visit Drudge Report, can someone let me in on the joke?

Edit: thanks.

Sure. Absolutely. But this is the first time I've actually been sympathetic, like I said. The Republicans will screw everyone with their nonsense. There was no reason for him to ignore his presidential advantage for health care, for tax cuts, for the stimulus, etc etc etc. This time...I get it.
 
Y2Kev said:
Sure. Absolutely. But this is the first time I've actually been sympathetic, like I said. The Republicans will screw everyone with their nonsense. There was no reason for him to ignore his presidential advantage for health care, for tax cuts, for the stimulus, etc etc etc. This time...I get it.

What Ghal is saying is true though. Whether he is forced to capitulate isn't the issue. Obama should've been out front and said 'Look, I am going to be forced to concede on many issues simply because we refuse to let our country slide into the abyss. The Tea Party Republicans are more concerned about getting what they want than the health of our country. I hate it but I am more concerned about all of you than getting everything that I want.' Instead he tries to be diplomatic which will just hurt his chances in 2012.
 
If the deal details are correct, this is the worst thing Obama has done as president. I wish there were just a couple democratic senators willing to blow this up right now, regardless of the consequences.

BOTH sides have said a default cannot and will not happen. And yet democrats have now given the GOP the American people as a hostage for the next few months. Senate democrats weren't even apart of the negotiation process apparently.

Republicans shouldn't even run a candidate next year, they're getting their agenda passed more effectively with Obama in office, with no consequences.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
LovingSteam said:
What Ghal is saying is true though. Whether he is forced to capitulate isn't the issue. Obama should've been out front and said 'Look, I am going to be forced to concede on many issues simply because we refuse to let our country slide into the abyss. The Tea Party Republicans are more concerned about getting what they want than the health of our country. I hate it but I am more concerned about all of you than getting everything that I want.' Instead he tries to be diplomatic which will just hurt his chances in 2012.
Yeah, that sucks. I think bipartisanism sucks in general. You lost. It's supposed to taste like a shit taco.

I definitely don't think I got what I was voting for.
 

S1lent

Member
I agree with Ghaelon. I swear, if Obama frames the debt ceiling deal the same way he did the agreement that averted the government shutdown, as some dignified, historic compromise, I'm going to puke.
 

eznark

Banned
For ev:

http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-mon...-neither-plan-protects-the-nations-aaa-rating

Moody's stating explicitly that a debt plan is necessary to avoid a downgrade. I think it's a bluff personally, they just want this done with. Plus, Zandi carries a lot of weight there and he is a True Believer in Obama, so I'm sure he'll go to the wall to protect his President (after all, his "The End of The Recession" schlock paper in 2009 was all but commissioned by the admin).
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
eznark said:
For ev:

http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-mon...-neither-plan-protects-the-nations-aaa-rating

Moody's stating explicitly that a debt plan is necessary to avoid a downgrade. I think it's a bluff personally, they just want this done with. Plus, Zandi carries a lot of weight there and he is a True Believer in Obama, so I'm sure he'll go to the wall to protect his President (after all, his "The End of The Recession" schlock paper in 2009 was all but commissioned by the admin).
Maybe they just think there's absolutely no chance we would ever raise revenues.
 
Interesting article

Supposedly some Tea Party members are realizing that compromise is important, albeit on their terms.

SomeDude said:
Word on the street is that bernie sanders may run in 2012. He is very popular with american socialist.

Truly TRULY the mods must take pleasure/pity on you for you to still be spouting your shit day in day out.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
Y2Kev said:
Sure. Absolutely. But this is the first time I've actually been sympathetic, like I said. The Republicans will screw everyone with their nonsense. There was no reason for him to ignore his presidential advantage for health care, for tax cuts, for the stimulus, etc etc etc. This time...I get it.
I didn't take my thought through to the end point I had in mind, but this has consequences for policy as well. In praising a deeply compromised stimulus bill and declaring it sufficient, Obama helped to set the perception his fiscal stimulus was a failure, rather than an inadequate response to a deeper recession than they expected. If the framing had been about a hesitant Obama signing a compromised bill under the condition that we'd see additional stimulus should the recession prove deeper than expected, the subsequent policy response might have been different. Instead it was sold as the cure to the recession ("recovery summer", remember that?) and when it didn't work, fiscal stimulus was discredited.

Likewise with the finance reform bill, which tinkered around the edges of our current system, but was sold as a solution. But people don't - and won't - feel it, because it was an insufficient response to a broken and predatory system.

This was part of why Dem turnout was suppressed the last election cycle - the base was told to shut up and swallow what we knew to be bad policy, and be happy about it. We've seen the same cycle with Obama's embrace of austerity-mania in the face of an anemic economy and high unemployment. It's being sold as a good thing, when the damage to the economy will be real. Obama's political framing, his embrace of insufficient or misguided policy response is damaging the public discourse and having an effect on the quality of the legislation that is passing.

I'm sympathetic to Obama's current plight of dealing with unreasonable extremists in Congress, but it was in part brought upon himself, and he's only helping to legitimize them in making the concessions he is without more of a public fight.

At any rate, Twitter is alive with talk that the emerging deal includes huge automatic spending cuts, but NO revenue triggers. Meaning the GOP have every incentive to NOT strike a deal from the "super Congress" panel, and just stonewall while the triggers sweep into effect, giving them the rest of what they want.

If that really is the template for the deal - and it's by no means a sure thing - it will be the worst possible outcome, aside from default.

Pctx said:
fox is reporting Harry's bill failed 50-49
The United States Senate, ladies and gentleman. Where a bill gets voted on 50-49 and fails.
 

eznark

Banned
Y2Kev said:
Maybe they just think there's absolutely no chance we would ever raise revenues.
Still can't believe how quick the left bit on that revenues stuff.

Raising taxes would likely be acceptable, I don't think Moody's stated a preference one way or the other, higher taxes v. Lower spending.
 

Measley

Junior Member
PhoenixDark said:
Get the fuck out of here with that tired bullshit. Blacks made up 10% of the vote, blaming them for Prop 8 passing is ridiculous, passive aggressive bigotry. The Prop 8 supporters ran a poor campaign

I said PART of the reason, not THE reason. Also Hispanics turned out in favor of Prop 8 as well.

Anyway Father Brain is right, just because minorities share some conservative viewpoints doesn't mean that minorities will vote in Republican law makers.
 

Jeels

Member
What compromise? Did democrats get a single thing they wanted?

I'm still all for the dems, but if they magically win the 2012 elections, they better not bend over backwards for Republicans because they are a minority because Republicans right now don't even control the "majority" of the government, but they are practically running it.
 

Measley

Junior Member
Jeels said:
What compromise? Did democrats get a single thing they wanted?

I'm still all for the dems, but if they magically win the 2012 elections, they better not bend over backwards for Republicans because they are a minority because Republicans right now don't even control the "majority" of the government, but they are practically running it.

I'm starting to wonder what's the point of voting for Democrats if Republicans run the show even when they're in the MINORITY.
 

Zabka

Member
eznark said:
For ev:

http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-mon...-neither-plan-protects-the-nations-aaa-rating

Moody's stating explicitly that a debt plan is necessary to avoid a downgrade. I think it's a bluff personally, they just want this done with. Plus, Zandi carries a lot of weight there and he is a True Believer in Obama, so I'm sure he'll go to the wall to protect his President (after all, his "The End of The Recession" schlock paper in 2009 was all but commissioned by the admin).
It says that "long-term debt and deficit problems will continue to weigh on the AAA mark", but that doesn't mean a debt plan needs to be included with the debt ceiling raise by Tuesday. The only thing the article says would directly lead to a downgrade is a default on payments.
 

eznark

Banned
Zabka said:
It says that "long-term debt and deficit problems will continue to weigh on the AAA mark", but that doesn't mean a debt plan needs to be included with the debt ceiling raise by Tuesday. The only thing the article says would directly lead to a downgrade is a default on payments.
This was a reference to a discussion ev and I had yesterday. Moody's is, in fact, concerned with the deficit. That's all.
 
Compromise? They call this a fucking compromise? I thought compromise meant, give a little, get a little. A sorta of 69 like negotiating. This is basically giving all, but not getting any in return
 

S1lent

Member
TacticalFox88 said:
Compromise? They call this a fucking compromise? I thought compromise meant, give a little, get a little. A sorta of 69 like negotiating. This is basically giving all, but not getting any in return

:lol
 
PhoenixDark said:
If the deal details are correct, this is the worst thing Obama has done as president. I wish there were just a couple democratic senators willing to blow this up right now, regardless of the consequences.

BOTH sides have said a default cannot and will not happen. And yet democrats have now given the GOP the American people as a hostage for the next few months. Senate democrats weren't even apart of the negotiation process apparently.

Republicans shouldn't even run a candidate next year, they're getting their agenda passed more effectively with Obama in office, with no consequences.

Pretty much.

Even the version of HCR that eventually passed was originally a Republican idea.

But yeah, they're just letting Obama implement a lot of their failed policies while Obama gets the blame for it.
 
TacticalFox88 said:
Compromise? They call this a fucking compromise? I thought compromise meant, give a little, get a little. A sorta of 69 like negotiating. This is basically giving all, but not getting any in return

Hah.

Yeah this is more like BDSM negotiating with Dems in straps and ball gags.
 

Averon

Member
This deal is shit but expected. Boehner is more concerned about placating teabaggers than the health of the economy and 41>59 in the Sentate, which means Senate Dems can't pass anything remotely resembling a liberal alternative bill. As I said before, the GOP won this already when any cuts was on the table at all. We're just parsing the details. Dems would at least get something out of this if the filibuster weren't there.

And this talk about Dems having their way when the Bush tax cuts are up to expire in 2012 is premature. What's to stop the GOP from taking another piece of critical legislation hostage? Indeed, that tactic has been a resounding success so far, so I fully expect them to do it again.
 

Wall

Member
Averon said:
This deal is shit but expected. Boehner is more concerned about placating teabaggers than the health of the economy and 41>59 in the Sentate, which means Senate Dems can't pass anything remotely resembling a liberal alternative bill. As I said before, the GOP won this already when any cuts was on the table at all. We're just parsing the details. Dems would at least get something out of this if the filibuster weren't there.

And this talk about Dems having their way when the Bush tax cuts are up to expire in 2012 is premature. What's to stop the GOP from taking another piece of critical legislation hostage? Indeed, that tactic has been a resounding success so far, so I fully expect them to do it again.

It only ends if the Democrats are able to take back the house in 2012 and keep the Senate and Presidency.

I hope President Obama has a good idea as to how he is going to convince the American people to re-elect him given the high unemployment and possibility of a recession that is going to exist at the time, and I hope that the American people remember how much they hated the Republican plans to gut medicare.
 
Averon said:
This deal is shit but expected. Boehner is more concerned about placating teabaggers than the health of the economy and 41>59 in the Sentate, which means Senate Dems can't pass anything remotely resembling a liberal alternative bill. As I said before, the GOP won this already when any cuts was on the table at all. We're just parsing the details. Dems would at least get something out of this if the filibuster weren't there.

And this talk about Dems having their way when the Bush tax cuts are up to expire in 2012 is premature. What's to stop the GOP from taking another piece of critical legislation hostage? Indeed, that tactic has been a resounding success so far, so I fully expect them to do it again.

The Bush tax cuts expire at the end of 2012. If Obama loses, he can't veto shit. And what's to say he will campaign on it, with a weak economy and a republican nominee accusing him of planning the "largest tax in US history." If he wins, it's not like republicans disappear. Due to gerrymandering they'll probably keep the house. He won't be able to let the rich cuts expire without also letting the middle class ones expire. And as he has shown, he's unwilling and unable to make such a decision.

And as you said, what's to stop republicans from doing something crazy. Let's say Obama wins a narrow, Bush-like re-election. While the right wing media shouts about fraud, the House decides to shut down government over the tax cuts since Obama doesn't have a "mandate" from the American people. What then? This is a farce.
 

Zzoram

Member
So can anyone tell me about that state where the Republicans wanted to weaken the teacher's union? I want to know if they succeeded.
 

eznark

Banned
Zzoram said:
So can anyone tell me about that state where the Republicans wanted to weaken the teacher's union? I want to know if they succeeded.
Wisconsin and Ohio. Success in both states, however the bill has been put to voters in Ohio where I expect it will be killed.
 

Zzoram

Member
eznark said:
Wisconsin and Ohio. Success in both states, however the bill has been put to voters in Ohio where I expect it will be killed.

Damnit. The teachers unions are going to be the death of America. We need to be able to fire bad teachers like people can be fired from just about every other occupation.
 
GhaleonEB said:
One of my main problems with Obama is that he has refused to call out the crazy for what it is. Rather than declare, "we have no choice but to eat shit tacos because I'm dealing with unreasonable chefs and this is all they'll make or we starve", he tries to pitch them as being good for us.

He'll be framing this massive set of concessions as a grand bargain. It's not what he wanted, but it's ultimately good for the country, Republicans and Democrats came together, etc. Perhaps a bit of finger waving over brinkmanship, but that's about it. He's got the bully pulpit, but won't use it to call out bad legislation that he has no choice but to sign.

I got an email from Obama for American (his campaign operation) asking me to help build support for the tax cut deal at the end of last year. He wanted me to recommend the shit tacos.

I like shredded beef tacos, myself.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/07/time-for-a-this-is-bullshit-speech/242404/

I wish he had given such a speech.

As always, another good one by Greg Gargent

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...tical-victory/2011/03/03/gIQA3l8WlI_blog.html
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Zzoram said:
Damnit. The teachers unions are going to be the death of America. We need to be able to fire bad teachers like people can be fired from just about every other occupation.

Michigan just implemented a rule like that as well, and, as a teacher, I agree with you for the most part--tenure allows bad teachers to hang on to their jobs for far too long.
 

eznark

Banned
Zzoram said:
Damnit. The teachers unions are going to be the death of America. We need to be able to fire bad teachers like people can be fired from just about every other occupation.
Ttere are other states that have similar limited bargaining rules, Indiana is especially restrictive. The unions just decided to fight in Wisconsin because they thought they might win.
 
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