NullPointer
Member
Others will explain this much better, but $2,000 out of $10,000 is a great deal more of a burden than $1,000,000 out of $5,000,000.LM4sure said:
That is not "fair".
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PoliGAF 2011: Of Weiners, Boehners, Santorum, and Teabags
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That is not "fair".
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
LM4sure said:
This is a false talking point. Everybody pays taxes. Sales tax, state tax, medicare and social security, and many more taxes. Just because folks may not pay income tax since their income is so low doesn't mean they're not paying taxes.
TacticalFox88
Banned
Majority of Americans don't pay taxes? You do realize that income tax isn't the only way the Federal Government pays for its services it provides right?LM4sure said:
If you're having such a hard life as a presumably well-to-do person (your definition may vary), why don't you quit your current job and move into an impoverished neighborhood, go work at McDonald's and take the bus or walk to work every day? Let us know how that free ride feels.LM4sure said:
Invisible_Insane
Member
They don't make much money, therefore they are getting a free ride?LM4sure said:
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
LM4sure said:
Are you married? Any children? Do you live at home?
Meus Renaissance
Member
Live blog
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/richard-adams-blog/2011/aug/01/us-debt-deal-limit-congress-live
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/richard-adams-blog/2011/aug/01/us-debt-deal-limit-congress-live
*Ahem*LM4sure said:
Somebody making 10k a year a losing 2k in taxes has a total of 8k a year to live off.
Somebody making 5mil a year losing 1mil in taxes has a total of 4mil a year to live off.
Only one person is being burdened in this scenario. Also, one of these people benefits more from living in a rich country than the other. Also, one of these people will never want for anything while the other will become desperate. Shouldnt take too long to figure out where this path leads.
Your argument is flawed and regressive.
Signed,
A member of the very low not-even-really-middle class.
reilo said:
Haha, I dont have to do that because I have an education and skills that the types of people that live there dont. Yes, there quality of life is not as good, but they pay no taxes, get food stamps, free daycare, free education, etc etc. The list goes on. And what do they contribute for all that? Nothing. I can understand why the extremely wealthy find ways to avoid paying taxes.
Patrick Klepek
furiously molesting tim burton
https://twitter.com/#!/fivethirtyeight/status/98086292058939392
"My latest extrapolation from @thehill's whip count: R's approve 153-87, D's against 59-132, bill FAILS 212-219."
Invisible_Insane
Member
This has been your Once-Every-Ten-Pages Explanation of Marginal Utility of Income.Veezy said:
Thanks for playing, everyone.
I don't disagree with that then. But my honest opinion is, if the economy was doing better and unemployment was under control, there wouldn't be a bunch of bitching and complaining from the lot of us.GhaleonEB said:
Everything is relative. It's why everyone wants us to be in the 90s again. Not many are willing to admit that half of what Obama's agenda is trying to accomplish is trying to reverse the shit that Clinton let pass. If Obama is a 90's republican, then Clinton was Robert Taft.
You are a piece of work. It must be nice to live in that comfortable bubble of yours.LM4sure said:
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
reilo said:
This is what we are left with. As long as you change the history to make your opinion valid to yourself that's all that matters.
People are mad and angry and will make things up to make themselves feel a little better. That's the only reason I get think of that would make them lie like this.
BruiserBear
Banned
PhoenixDark said:
You believe the government creates jobs? The same government that is 14.3 trillion dollars in debt? What a shitty business model.
polyh3dron said:
This baseless claim needs to die in a fire. If you disagree with people on an ideological level, than have at it, but it is so intellectually lazy to throw out that line over and over. It's like an internet meme that people want to forcefully make true if they just repeat it enough times, because you know, a few people showed up at a Tea Party event with a racist sign or something.
To be clear, I am no Tea Party fan, or even a GOP fan, but I am a fan of reasoning and civil discourse.
BotoxAgent
Member
LM4sure said:
I don't believe you
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
LM4sure said:
What type of skills and education do you have?
TacticalFox88
Banned
........If everything is so free to them, then why is it that even with all those things they STILL find it hard to survive! Fuck, it's like talking to a brick wall with you. You have an agenda against the poor, nothing else needs to be saidLM4sure said:
Invisible_Insane
Member
No need to make it personal. He refuses to engage substantively on the counters to his arguments, let's leave it there.LovingSteam said:
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Lord_Byron28 said:
And I'm 100% sure being stubborn would have made the GOP in the House vote to end the Bush tax cuts and sign on to tax increases this year.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Invisible_Insane said:
Who is making it personal? He said that he has skills and education that the poor do not. I think its a fair question. I am not getting personal nor am I attacking him. I am asking him a fair question. If he chooses to not answer that is fine. You don't need to get in the middle of it.
GhaleonEB said:
Let's be real here, those Republican health care reform policies were only proposed as counters to the more progressive Democrat one's that were floating around at the time. Progressive plans that never made it out of committee and were D.O.A. during Clinton's first term.
You don't really think if Bob Dole was elected in 1996 he would have came forward with his plan, do you? It was just a bullet point on his party's plank.
So, instead of condemning Obama for passing 'Republican policies', you should be praising him for getting a foot in the door and doing something that has never been done. That's what a pragmatist does.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Why shouldn't people pay the percentage of wealth that they take from the country?LM4sure said:
Your tax policy is unfair to the poorest of Americans and puts the majority of the tax burden on them. Just because all of the percentages are the same doesn't make it fundamentally fair.
reilo said:
I'm a piece of work because I don't feel guilty about my situation when there are other people in worse off conditions than me? Well, I'm sorry; I don't feel guilty.
BotoxAgent said:
If that helps you sleep at night, God bless you.
But I do need to get back to work. So it was a good discussion everyone. I'm super excited that taxes aren't being increased!! Whoever wants to give more than what they are taxed, do not fret! You can give the government a gift in excess of what you already pay in taxes! Just go to this link: http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/gift/gift.htm
You're welcome!
Krauser Kat
Member
Flat Taxes are inapplicable. The rate at which everyone would need to be taxed would kill the poor and give us almost no gains. A flat rate would have to be upwards of 30-35%.LM4sure said:
I would be more than happy to pay 3 million in taxes, per year, if I earned an imcome of 5 million. You know why? Because I probably wouldn't have to work as hard. Or drive a Honda Accord.LM4sure said:
The vast majority of super rich people got to where they were becuase of the fact the live in America and were lucky. I work hard, I bust my ass, and I'm not a millionare. Ya know what though, if I was, I wouldn't bitch about taxes.
I'll do you one better!
If I made a million a year I'd be willing to pay 800k in taxes. You know how happy I'd be with 200k a year to spend on shit? Jesus Christ, I'd be set for life on that.
You must not know what it's like to hurt to pay your bills. Trust me, I'd trade places with a BOA exective in a heart beat.
PhoenixDark
Banned
To clarify, I was not saying I was shocked at Obama revealing himself to be a 90s moderate republican. I was arguing the disappointment comes from him coming into office with such strong support and good will, only to piss most of it away with unimaginative policy.
I realize Wall Street didn't bankroll his campaign for nothing, I'm not suggesting I expected the moon and stars. But I would have never imagined Obama would enter office and be so neutered. Here's a guy with more command of oratory than most recent presidents, yet the WH seems unwilling to send him out until a deal is dead or dying and the narrative has already been set by republicans. Remember when Obama started doing town halls during the health care debate, and effectively explained things? Or when he was trotted out for the govt shutdown. Or more recently, think of how effectively he argued his point on the debt ceiling. In each case he arrived too late.
I realize Wall Street didn't bankroll his campaign for nothing, I'm not suggesting I expected the moon and stars. But I would have never imagined Obama would enter office and be so neutered. Here's a guy with more command of oratory than most recent presidents, yet the WH seems unwilling to send him out until a deal is dead or dying and the narrative has already been set by republicans. Remember when Obama started doing town halls during the health care debate, and effectively explained things? Or when he was trotted out for the govt shutdown. Or more recently, think of how effectively he argued his point on the debt ceiling. In each case he arrived too late.
LM4sure said:
That's where you are wrong.
The people that don't pay Federal taxes are primarily those too young, old, or poor to garner significant income.
That's students(who'll eventually pay), the completely disabled, nursing home residents, and the homeless.
Outside that, everyone who works pays FICA (7.5%) and sales taxes regardless of income.
Federal income taxes are not the only taxes you know.
teruterubozu
Member
PhoenixDark said:
He basically became a reactionary president. Reacting to Rush, Beck, Tea Party, Palin, etc.
most people are born into poverty while a select few are born into wealth and connected families. yeah that's fair! clearly taxing the wealthy more than a family living paycheck to paycheck is unfair even while still leaving the rich with far more than they will ever need or use. clearly janitorial and construction work is far easier than just investing the amount of wealth you already have into gold and oil and should be taxed more than capital gains. yeah that's fair! it's not like the problem with the economy right now is that not enough people have money to spend or anything or that the rich would benefit from an improved economy as much as everyone else. no clearly we cannot tax the rich more because it is just too unfucking fair even if it would improve things for everyone.LM4sure said:
Invisible_Insane
Member
Sidebar: If you're in New York, you can now get Al-Jazeera English on Time Warner, it should be on FiOS soon as well.
Invisible_Insane
Member
We're not actually going to default. We're just going to run the country 40% under budget for a while. Fun times.Meadows said:
Did Treasury put out the priorities list out yet?
Hey now, Mitt Romney doesn't deserve to pay more in taxes because he earned that money by buying up smaller businesses into a larger conglomerate and then laying people off from that smaller business to make a profit and increase his portfolio. A true American hero. We cannot punish him by making him pay more taxes. That would be deftly cruel.
Or something.
Can we stop treating rich people like saints? This idea that rich people worked harder and were more productive is just asinine to me.
Or something.
Can we stop treating rich people like saints? This idea that rich people worked harder and were more productive is just asinine to me.
TacticalFox88
Banned
I think the Campaign rhetoric blinded even himself to the realities of the situation he was getting himself into. I genuinely believe that he was going to do what we all wanted, but the games of politics in Washington hit him hard.PhoenixDark said:
polyh3dron
Banned
Oh come on, when the first tea party protests were happening it was all about Chairman Maobama, the kenyan muslim atheist fascist socialist who was some kind of Manchurian Antichrist Candidate. Don't do that bullshit revisionist history where the whole tea party movement was made up of everydat normal Americans who were all about reducing the federal deficit. All these old white people crying saying that they felt like they lost their country and they wanted their country back right after Obama was elected, that shit was so transparent it was ridiculous.BruiserBear said:
The "Tea Party" was a reaction of racist people who were threatened by a black President. The claim is far from baseless, there is a shitload of evidence to support it.
NullPointer
Member
Hey, they lifted themselves up from their own bootstraps and worked hard to get into that womb.Jak140 said:
Dude Abides
Banned
DasRaven said:
This has been pointed out to him several times and he's studiously ignored it. Why, it's almost as if he's more interested in parroting talking points than an intellectually honest debate!
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
BruiserBear said:
How can you or anybody else sit there and think that the gov't doesn't create jobs? It does create jobs and you know it! Your statement is wrong. There's no room for an opinion on this.
My first point to how I can prove that you are wrong is for you to look at military spending.
reilo said:
Actually, my point is that he's a bad leader, period. That includes an inability to get his own side to join him on a host of issues (including getting rid of the filibuster), his inability to get the American people to join him, and his inability to get the Republicans to join him. The President's job is to convince everyone he's right, whether they like him or not. He hasn't been great at keeping his own party in line, and he's been terrible at doing what needs to be done to get Republicans to back down, and he's been pretty poor at getting the American people on his side.
You apparently don't remember when there were 60 votes in the Democratic caucus, and he was unable to convince them to do what he wanted. Talk about revisionist history.
It can ring as hollow as it wants, but you've still never addressed the core issue, which is his ineffective leadership. You won't, because you know true. So instead, you focus on everyone but him, and rattle on about how hard he's had it, as if this was some surprise to anyone.
You keep talking about the filibuster, but you had no answer to my question regarding why he didn't slap the fuck out of Reid for letting it go on. You have no answer for why he's been unable to get the American people behing him in significant numbers to change the playing field. It's because you know what I'm saying is true, but it's more convenient to pretend I'm excusing Republicans than to acknowledge that leadership isn't one of Obama's strong suits.
I agree with you on virtually everything regarding the shittyness of both sides of Congress. I've said as much repeatedly. But those are the tools that exist. Even when your tools are two snarling weasels that would just as soon see you dead as deal with you, it's a poor craftsman that blames his tools. If he is unable to deal with the political system as it exists, then he's not the right guy for the job. It's that simple. I know you've apparently missed the many points in this discussion where I've said that he has many admirable qualities, likely because you were too busy inventing fictions about my feelings towards Clinton, but I wasn't joking about them.
He's probably my second favorite Democratic President of my lifetime, right behind Jimmy Carter, another ineffectual leader. I think Clinton was a shitstain. My favorite Republican? George Bush, Sr. another bad leader who got routed after one term. My personal feelings about all of these men have very little to do with how effective they were. The reality is that good people get ground up in politics and shitheads prosper.
It's a terrible system, and I'd never suggest it wasn't. I've spent decades working to make it a better system, with very little effect. But you can't rebuild a car while you're driving it. You have to do one or the other, and the Presidency is a postion that requires you to drive, not tinker.
Edit: The frustrating thing is that you and I agree on nearly everything. There's nothing you've said about the horror we call modern government that I haven't said in the past, and that I won't say in the future. I've never voted Republican, and it seems increasingly unlikely I ever will. The one time the Democratic party put someone up I couldn't stomach, I voted socialist. I'm just not willing to give the President a pass to the extent you seem to be. I'm not sure why people feel the need to reflexively defend him by regurgitating what we already know about the brokeness of the system and the ugliness of the opposition. But all it does is insure that you're going to keep getting guys more interested in doing it right than getting it done. When this is all done, you're going to write up histories that portray him as a uniquely embattled President, and the rest of the country is going to remember him as Jimmy Carter 2.0. Since I've actually lived that frustration, I'll leave you to have your own experience with it and catch up with you in a couple of decades, when you've figured out that the President's weakness is responsible for some of the very problems that are crippling him.
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