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PoliGAF 2011: Of Weiners, Boehners, Santorum, and Teabags
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Invisible_Insane
Member
In my experience, Trump is synonymous with competent financial stewardship.ToxicAdam said:
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
They always felt like they were supposed to have 10 kids. You got me, thank goodness they did or I wouldn't be here!
Government assistance is fine. I cannot dog it completely; being able to write off mortgage interest gave me a better tax return last year ( even though I think that deduction could easily be eliminated) but I fund it unfortunate that people no longer turn to their neighbors, family and churches for help and instead go up to the benefits office.
I work in a store where people come in to pay regular 200 dollar cable bills all while their EBT cards are falling out of their wallets or bra straps. Crap just bothers the hell out of me. You do not need to waste 2500 dollars a year on cable, feed and educate your ****ing family.
You know what being poor and seeing my father work his ass off for us did? Made all of us work hard to be educated and make our way into success. I have immediate family members that are CFOs company presidents, own businesses, and are otherwise professionally employed. We have all managed to break through to at least middle class and we all worked hard to get there. I see a lot of laziness being passed down through generations because of the expectation of benefits. How about everyone that wants to keep longterm government benefits and is physically able, be forced to use some of the money (which would then cover the cost) of some sort of professional training? Sounds like a great idea to me.
Government assistance is fine. I cannot dog it completely; being able to write off mortgage interest gave me a better tax return last year ( even though I think that deduction could easily be eliminated) but I fund it unfortunate that people no longer turn to their neighbors, family and churches for help and instead go up to the benefits office.
I work in a store where people come in to pay regular 200 dollar cable bills all while their EBT cards are falling out of their wallets or bra straps. Crap just bothers the hell out of me. You do not need to waste 2500 dollars a year on cable, feed and educate your ****ing family.
You know what being poor and seeing my father work his ass off for us did? Made all of us work hard to be educated and make our way into success. I have immediate family members that are CFOs company presidents, own businesses, and are otherwise professionally employed. We have all managed to break through to at least middle class and we all worked hard to get there. I see a lot of laziness being passed down through generations because of the expectation of benefits. How about everyone that wants to keep longterm government benefits and is physically able, be forced to use some of the money (which would then cover the cost) of some sort of professional training? Sounds like a great idea to me.
jamesinclair
Banned
AlteredBeast said:
Oh please.
Theres nothing wrong with religion. The problem is making decisions based on religious ideas that were formed long before science.
Some religions ban certain foods. Pork, shelfish etc. This was because in the past, without the benefit of science and medicine, these people could not safely eat these foods.
Clinging to these ideas that these food will harm you, because 2,000 years ago there was no refrigeration or thermometers is bad form.
Likewise abortion. Does your religions say that killing babies is bad? Thats good. I personally agree 100% with that idea. I am anti-death penatly for example, it is not our place to kill anyone, good or bad.
But a cluster of cells is not a baby.
APKmetsfan said:
Im saving billions on education, remember? Pays for itself. And any policy changes towards a smaller population, unfortunately would be limited to our borders. Im sure there are millions of africans who would love to work in labor shortage america of 2030.
It's not insignificant because religion has put a huge burden on the choice. It's a tough and personal choice because you have people shouting about how evil you are.
And without the proper education about the stages of development, it is easy to fall prey to the hysteria.
Imagine if circumcision had the same religious baggage (instead of incentive) as abortion. The poor men who needed to get cut because of an unfortunate infection or medical problem would feel shamed and be full of regret. They made a life changing choice to abort millions of penile cells. Theyre never coming back.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
Careful, we are already talking abortion, wouldn't want to bring on the triumvirate of GAF bat signals, circumcision (which always leads to tipping, strangely)
NathanMcMahon
Banned
So, I'm sitting here pondering why anybody would have 10 kids. It seems pretty excessive, but, ya know, people are inclined to procreate for whatever reason they want and this being a somewhat free country and all, I totally agree that they should fuck all they want and have as many kids as they want. I mean, it's pretty ridiculous to have that many kids but go ahead. So, as I'm thinking about this, I'm also realizing that the person who made this statement then went on to proclaim that "we never received a dime of welfare, medicare, etc.". I guess for those benefits that's okay, but what about the free public education that all 10 of those kids got? You benefited from a form of public welfare. Obviously, by your own statement about your parents abject failure at providing monetary relief to you and your family, you've admitted as much that they didn't even remotely put in what they took out. On the other hand, my parents who made a sizable sum of money every year opted to bow out at three kids. They paid their fair share and then some. So, I'm kind of lost on the whole issue where it's okay that your parents made worthless livings and my parents didn't, yet you consider the benefits of public education as not welfare. Of course, I'm a veteran who suckles off the teat of all you tax payers with my awesome medical coverage and benefits for education and stuff so I bow down at the government trough.
speculawyer
Member
Well first, they should be using birth control properly.AlteredBeast said:
But if birth control fails then why should they be forced to have a baby. If they are too incompetent to use birth control and they don't want a child then they are probably not going to be the best of parents are they? They've already proven to be stupid and disinterested. I'd rather allow them to make their own decision.
And things are different now. Wages for low & middle income people have been flat for decades. Back then you could get a decent low skill manufacturing job. Those jobs are gone now. We have more of a barbell economy . . . and elite upper class and lots of Walmart/Target/McDonalds service workers making a little more than minimum wage and no health insurance. And back then . . . then had abortion available to them and I'm very glad they did.
The world has run this experiment. China had a one-child policy and the place developed like crazy. And the places where birth rates are really high? Most of them are poverty zones.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
Free education as a government handout? That is about as retarded a statement as I have heard in a long time. A better comparison would have been to say that my parents had no tax burden and therefore didn't put anything in that way, while your parents were apparently unfairly taxed (as you made it sound).
I myself said too many people unneedingly get benefits, many of those affect all.
But the important thing is the fact that we weren't raised in the backwoods of Mississippi to collect as much government money as possible. We were raised to work hard and now we put in far more in taxes than we ever took out as kids. That is what is important. It shouldn't be anybody's business how many kids anyone has, just that they are raised right.
I think my idea of forced education and maintaining criteria to keep your free benefits going sounds like a good idea to me. 0 kids or 29 who cares.
I myself said too many people unneedingly get benefits, many of those affect all.
But the important thing is the fact that we weren't raised in the backwoods of Mississippi to collect as much government money as possible. We were raised to work hard and now we put in far more in taxes than we ever took out as kids. That is what is important. It shouldn't be anybody's business how many kids anyone has, just that they are raised right.
I think my idea of forced education and maintaining criteria to keep your free benefits going sounds like a good idea to me. 0 kids or 29 who cares.
AlteredBeast said:
Of course, I mean free education, completely, all the way through, at the very core, whatever one is interested in, whenever one is interested. Knowledge, science, understanding, all can be attained though education - and all the World's problems can be solved, or at least greatly minimized*. We are better off now than we were a thousand years ago, and a thousand years ago we were better off than we were ten thousand years ago, because of our ability to learn. In the future I expect us to be better off than we are now because of that very same thing.
*natural disasters can't be solved, but things such as building codes can minimize suffering from an earthquake, and understanding weather patterns can prepare people for things such as hurricanes and floods.
jamesinclair: Yeah, and educating people about the ramifications of having kids is a way of shrinking classroom size too. It really is a vicious cycle - lack of understanding.
I largely concur. Iraq cannot eternally rely on American troops to enforce confidence provisions and arbitrate disputes. Ultimately, these disputes must be solved by Iraq's political process. The transition will be perilous. It will be fraught with sectarian acrimony and likely violence. Moreover, a perpetual American military presence inhibits domestic reconciliation. It is imperative they resolve these disputes. Yet Iraq's government can shirk its responsibility because it realizes American troops will resolve the issue. Additionally, if Iraq's constitutional framework proves incapable of resolving these issues, then our efforts are futile. It is high time Iraq resolves these issues.planar1280 said:
state-of-the-art
Member
Skiptastic said:
I just finished that book. Interesting read.
jamesinclair
Banned
ivedoneyourmom said:
Yup, if you read through all my posts on the subject, I say it repeatedly, the lack of education is the problem.
Educate people on biology, on finance, on the true cost of a baby, on their choices etc...
And we'll get a much better society.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
I have no problem with any of that. Its the constant avocation of abortion that I disagree with. Prevention of pregnancy and family planning is very important. I am religious and disapprove of abortions, though.jamesinclair said:
Education could be the biggest difference, but as long as stupid and poor people have sex without protection or misuse protection, there will always be tons of unplanned pregnancies. You overestimate the fact that the only people stupid enough to not realize the cost and implications of childbirth and rearing are going to magically wise up and start real prevention. I don't think that they will..
speculawyer
Member
You are in deep denial on this one.AlteredBeast said:
Whether you admit it or not, your family's education was literally very largely subsidized by the people around you (unless you lived in a mansion and paid some massive property taxes). There is no such thing as a free lunch. Those teachers and schools were not free. Your neighbors paid for them.
NathanMcMahon
Banned
AlteredBeast said:
Your childish and impetuous response speaks volumes about your lack of understanding and the inability to actually speak without insulting people is kind of ridiculous. Of course you don't see free education as a government handout. Otherwise you and your irresponsible parents would be part of the problem that you seem to despise. But you in fact did benefit from other people's hard work and your parents took advantage of that. Once again, your parents and you and your siblings were a drain on society. You provided nothing and yet took plenty from the government handout of public education.
NathanMcMahon
Banned
Gonaria said:
The truth can hurt sometimes.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
Investment, not drain. That is what I am saying. Had we all been lazy turds i would agree with you, but we are now doing the subsidizing in our own communities. We did own a house and paid property taxes, though, so I wouldn't say all 10 of us were robbing our neighbors, more like 8 of us or so. 
I do love the " provided nothing" comment, though. Damn, make us sound like thieves! I have worked since I was 8!
I do love the " provided nothing" comment, though. Damn, make us sound like thieves! I have worked since I was 8!
RustyNails
Member
You can kindly fack off.moop2000 said:
NathanMcMahon
Banned
RustyNails said:
Here's another unreasoned response. Seriously? That's what you bring to the table?
Karma Kramer
Banned
i don't think working or not working is gonna make you a better parent... if anything the parent not working and being at home most of the time would be better for the kid. im not really so sure about what is being argued though so please ignore if i'm off point
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
AlteredBeast said:
I wish this was the thought process of people in America.
NathanMcMahon
Banned
quadriplegicjon said:
Someday it will be. That ridiculous sign about "Keeping Government Hands Off Of My Medicare" is a good omen that the stupid will always be stupid and they can eventually be persuaded to the correct side.
speculawyer
Member
Indeed . . . such 'socialized' government spending *is* an investment. It is better for the community and pitch in to make sure all the kids are educated even if they are paying for other kids education because it will make the economy stronger for everyone.AlteredBeast said:Investment, not drain. That is what I am saying. Had we all been lazy turds i would agree with you, but we are now doing the subsidizing in our own communities. We did own a house and paid property taxes, though, so I wouldn't say all 10 of us were robbing our neighbors, more like 8 of us or so.
I do love the " provided nothing" comment, though. Damn, make us sound like thieves! I have worked since I was 8!
Public education really is a good example where "socialism" works. And even libertarians pretty much have no problem supporting it . . . granted they would rather have the government hand out vouchers that can be used to pay for private school, by & large they do not dispute that all children should get an education that is paid for by the government (that is paid for with taxes).
SlipperySlope
Banned
speculawyer said:
I agree with the voucher system. Need to get private and public systems on a more level playing field, financially.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
Indeed. That and the fact that true low income people who want to go to school will probably qualify for pell grants and go to school Scott free. I should know, my first year of college was paid for this way when I was working at target!speculawyer said:
There is a problem of desire and poor education during the important years of a person's eductional development- the years between 5 and 15. By 18, you can't fix stupid. That is harsh, but it is highly unlikely that someone who cannot read or write at a middle school level (much less a high school level) are simply incapable of getting anything out of college. Theywould probably fail at even a community college.
Not having Free education or extremely affordable education is the thing stopping this nation from maintaing superpower status. Right now, without an emphasis on education and with tuition skyrocketing, we are a nation in decline with no brakes.
An emphasis must be placed on schooling while in early years,though. It is for this reason why I want to be a teacher eventually. Idealist, maybe, but I feel like I could change some kids lives by being enthusiastic and unrelenting in their education, at least while under my stewardship.
speculawyer
Member
The voucher systems are a church/state separation quagmire.SlipperySlope said:
And unless you live in a dense city area, it makes little sense having multiple schools because there are not enough kids. (Unless you start transporting the kids longer distances but that is pretty stupid since it is waste of time and the price of oil is on an upward march.)
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
It wouldn't be a matter of a private businesses needing the handout or even gettingmit, it would be for the student to take their education to a private school. The handout would be for the child...FLEABttn said:
Yes, nothing quite like a government handout for private industry, to make sure they can compete.
NathanMcMahon
Banned
I don't get how someone who lambasts social welfare admits to accepting it and sees no problem with this. It's mind boggling.
RustyNails
Member
An unreasoned response is precisely the one you're throwing against posters without any semblance of substance and understanding of reality. You sound like you just took a crash course in liberalism and are way too trigger happy to test your theories on people who you don't know anything about. Why do people fuck so much? It's a question that bewildered ancient Sumerians and modern day thinkers, but the general idea is that in many societies, children are seen as dependable fixtures of social securities. Especially if they live in environment that has shorter life spans, or they might just prefer their children over government handouts. In 3rd world countries, children are used as extra-hands in farms, factories and auto repair shops, meaning extra income for the household. Many people don't have enough education about family planning, abortions, pills, etc. Many immigrants from poorer countries also fall into this category. There are many, many reasons, most up for debate. But there's absolutely no reason to get into a personal screed with someone in order to prove whatever your point is, and your attitude is precisely the elitist attitude that Limbaugh, Hannity and other fuckwits yell about in radio. I'm pretty sure they don't know such stereotypical people actually exist, yet you would be their typical poster boy. "why do you have 10 siblings? why do your parents like to make babies so much?" Pretty sure every family has its reasons and some excuses, but that's no way to start a convo. I severely dislike extreme left equally as much as extreme right. They should be thrown into a caged gladiatorial combat, if I had my way.moop2000 said:
AlteredBeast said:
The child already gets an education. No better education is guaranteed by transferring the money from a public school to a private school, while private business obviously gets some money in a voucher system. The child isn't guaranteed to get anything while some private schools are almost guaranteed to get something. It's a private business subsidy.
speculawyer
Member
That describes most Americans except they often don't admit to accepting it even though they do.moop2000 said:
(and if you point out that they do they kick you out of their house. ;-) )
http://boingboing.net/2011/07/08/half-of-us-social-pr.html
speculawyer said:
Yea, I think the voucher system is a very short-sighted idea. Instead of giving parents and students the option to flee crappy school districts we should be making those school districts better. I mean, there is no way every kid can flee from a crappy school district.
To actually accomplish that though, I think the first thing we need to do is take school funding away from the local level and bring it up to the state. Every kid attending public school should receive the same dollar amount worth of education. Personally, I find it pretty ridiculous that some high schools in Texas have 10 million dollar football stadiums while others can barely afford proper materials, have insanely crowded classrooms and work in old, run-down buildings.
This is public school, a rich kid shouldnt get a better public education just because his parents are richer. That is for private schools.
NathanMcMahon
Banned
RustyNails said:
How did I personally attack him? How was my response unreasoned? You can't legitimately answer these questions so you tell me to "fack off". And then you spew some bullshit about fucking and third world ideals of having children? I also never stated that his parents shouldn't have that many children. I asked why they did and the question wasn't answered. I am fucking liberal and wear it as a badge of honor just like you wear your supposed centrism as one. This screed you posted reeks of bullshit and evasion and your elitism about where you stand is just as much a pile of shit as the next. But you can't see that either because you are above it all, aren't you? Fucking pathetic.
NathanMcMahon
Banned
speculawyer said:That describes most Americans except they often don't admit to accepting it even though they do.
(and if you point out that they do they kick you out of their house. ;-) )
http://boingboing.net/2011/07/08/half-of-us-social-pr.html
Unfortunately, I know it's true. It still blows my mind. I mean, it's on display right here and they'll never see it.
SlipperySlope
Banned
Gonaria said:
Yeah, it would have to be taken up to the state level. Regarding crappy school districts and making them better, this is the impulse to get them to improve themselves, or they will be so starved of cash that they will close. Since they won't get any public money directly. And the students then will go to the better school. Even the public schools will be competing against each other.
Regarding the complaint of "this will mainly affect the inner-city schools"... aren't those the schools with the biggest problems?
And finally, separation of church and state. I frankly find the education of our children to be a little more important than that issue. And the school wouldn't be getting the money directly anyway. It would be funneled to the child, for the parents to put towards the school of their choosing.
Edit - I see zero downsides to the voucher system. Only upsides. No idea why democrats are so against a little competition in public schools.
moop2000 said:
You were needlessly harsh. You called his parents irresponsible drains on society, and him, when he was their dependent, as well. I'd call that a personal attack. Seriously, tone it done a bit. Your posts in this topic are much too confrontational and abrasive.
NathanMcMahon
Banned
Gonaria said:
So, it's okay that he says my response is retarded which implies it as worthless and wrong and I point out the hard truth and that's wrong? You make no sense. They were irresponsible and drains on society which fits his generalization of welfare recipients and yet it's too harsh? Seriously?
moop2000 said:
Yes, it is wrong. He said what you said was foolish. He wasnt attacking you personally, just what you said. You said his parents were foolish and irresponsible. Thats like kicking someone in the nuts repeatedly for saying that you don't know what you are talking about.
NathanMcMahon
Banned
Salazar said:
Hahaha. I point out the truth and this is what you guys offer? I don't understand this line of reasoning like he's a victim. It makes no sense. I was asking a legitimate question that still goes unanswered. He made the point that his parents made a substandard living income, especially for a family of 12. No one can seem to give a legitimate reason as to why his government welfare is okay but others isn't. The point is that there is no reasoned response for that. Instead my point gets called retarded and then I get told to fack off. That's the best this discussion has to offer?
SlipperySlope said:
I see a definite downside. Those schools that the students are fleeing will remain abandoned shit holes and the students who are stuck there will suffer for it. Unless you think we should just create a bunch of new schools, but what is exactly the point of that? Seems like a waste of money. Better to just take funding up to the state level and fund public schools properly.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
That way you can leave the ESL students, the poor students, and the mentally handicapped in the rickety public school and the other kids can escape their Harrison Bugeroneqsue hell.Gonaria said:
speculawyer
Member
Yeah . . . that constitution . . . it is "just a piece of paper". Just toss it aside and let the government start funding religion. Great plan.SlipperySlope said:
NathanMcMahon
Banned
Salazar said:
I don't see it as a drain at all, but I take issue with someone bemoaning welfare and yet they have had success in their life because of that welfare. And no matter what anyone says to the contrary, public education is government welfare. It's perfectly legitimate to bring up that ridiculous conundrum. Welfare is fantastic and helps people less fortunate have a chance in life. Apparently that was lost on you due to my wording and for that I'm sorry, but I refuse to be sorry for pointing out rank hypocrisy when I see it. Whether it offends or not, it's the truth. Here is someone who benefited from my family, and many other families like it, fortunes. That is awesome and amazing and I'm glad that it worked out this way.
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