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[GhaleonEB]

For a moment I savored the thought of Obama's reelection, and the epic aneurysm the tea partiers would suffer upon four more years of Obama. It would make the subsequent four year shitstorm worth it.

 

[Byakuya769]

What were the reactions here like when Bush won his second term? All diablos, all the time?

 

[Snaku]

They're talking about a company that took $55 million in stimulus money.

$55 million.

See, that's the shit Ron Paul is talking about. These assholes make a big to do about investing a few piddly million(s) at home, when we've sunk trillions into two absurd wars overseas. And the asshat Republicans in Congress follow their lead.

 

[ToxicAdam]

What were the reactions here like when Bush won his second term? All diablos, all the time?

A few moving to Canada threads. Military draft thread, War with Iran thread, etc etc.

Although "big threads" back then had about 40 replies.


Here's one posted by a former mod (guess who!).


Here's the post 2004 reaction thread.

 

[Particle Physicist]

So Whole Foods was shouted down by bigots for carrying Halal food items

Here's the vilest of remarks:

......
...Do you ever reach a point in your life where you just run out of ways expressing disbelief over what is happening to this country...?

They also carry Kosher food.

 

[PhoenixDark]

What happened in '86?

My mom was pregnant with me in 86...

 

[Byakuya769]

A few moving to Canada threads. Military draft thread, War with Iran thread, etc etc.

Although "big threads" back then had about 40 replies.


Here's one posted by a former mod (guess who!).

Hahaha, nice. No USA versus "Jesus Land" threads?

 

[besada]

Things seem so much different from the 2008 election. I know the 2012 campaigns have barely even begun, but there's almost no chance for something genuinely good to come from this election.

It's easy, even fun, to be political when things are going your way. When your guy is getting elected, and you have hope, politics is exciting and fun. When you're getting your teeth kicked in on a daily basis, it's depressing and a drag.

But the world doesn't go away, and the need for reasonable political actors doesn't vanish, just because things are going poorly. That's when the world needs people who care the most. It's easy to be into politics when the economy is going gangbusters and your guy is in the White House, but that's when you're needed the least.

I know that few people believe it anymore, but that's how change happens. Not by electing an amazing President, but by enough people being upset that they sacrifice their time to effect change. It's slow and thankless, but over the long haul it works. But it is a long haul. To make significant changes, it takes thousands or hundreds of thousands of people decades.

You can sometimes get lucky by standing in the middle of an inflection point in history, but that's pretty rare. We marched and agitated and shouted and voted for nearly a decade over AIDS and the treatment of LGBT people to get where we are today. People of all colors fought for decades to change the way this country treated people of color. Both have been successful, although neither fight is done. But they took a lot of hard work from a lot of people, all who felt just as depressed and hopeless as you guys do now.

Seriously, go find a problem and help fix it. You'll feel better about the world.

 

[besada]

What happened in '86?

What didn't happen in 1986?

Chernobyl, the West Berlin Disco bombing followed by our retaliatory strike on Libya, the first televised Senate proceedings, South Africa in ruins, Reagan's continued existence, the failed talks in Reykjavik, a revolution in the Phillipines, the beginning of Iran-Contra, the beating of young black men in Queens and elsewhere...

Edit: The spawning of PD

 

[Suikoguy]

They're talking about a company that took $55 million in stimulus money.

$55 million.

Actually, 5.
The rest was from the state.

 

[Oblivion]

Im considering throwing in the towel with Poli-gaf... love you guys but this thread leaves me nothing but depressed these days.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Some guy

 

[A Human Becoming]

What didn't happen in 1986?

Chernobyl, the West Berlin Disco bombing followed by our retaliatory strike on Libya, the first televised Senate proceedings, South Africa in ruins, Reagan's continued existence, the failed talks in Reykjavik, a revolution in the Phillipines, the beginning of Iran-Contra, the beating of young black men in Queens and elsewhere...

Edit: The spawning of PD

I don't know if I would call that a year defining event. It still goes on now and I doubt it was as extreme as the LA riots in '92.

I'd say the Arab Spring, Japan earthquake, largest single day drop in Stock Market history, Osama bin Laden assassination, etc. are on equal footing. May we live in interesting times...

 

[Karma Kramer]

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Some guy

And what exactly are we doing by reading day in and day out how messed up our politics are?

 

[speculawyer]

What didn't happen in 1986?

Chernobyl, the West Berlin Disco bombing followed by our retaliatory strike on Libya, the first televised Senate proceedings, South Africa in ruins, Reagan's continued existence, the failed talks in Reykjavik, a revolution in the Phillipines, the beginning of Iran-Contra, the beating of young black men in Queens and elsewhere...

Edit: The spawning of PD

A nuclear meltdown, war in Libya, revolutions . . . . the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Well, South Africa has changed for the better.

 

[teruterubozu]

What didn't happen in 1986?

Chernobyl, the West Berlin Disco bombing followed by our retaliatory strike on Libya, the first televised Senate proceedings, South Africa in ruins, Reagan's continued existence, the failed talks in Reykjavik, a revolution in the Phillipines, the beginning of Iran-Contra, the beating of young black men in Queens and elsewhere...

Edit: The spawning of PD

Challenger explosion. Every American remembers that day and it became a major stain on NASA, who were considered flawless until then.

 

[Oblivion]

And what exactly are we doing by reading day in and day out how messed up our politics are?

We're keeping ourselves knowledgeable so that we can possibly sway others into doing the same.

I know what you're talking about, it's seriously fucking depressing, but no matter how bad things get, just watch an episode of the West Wing to revitalize the will to keep fighting.

 

[besada]

I don't know if I would call that a year defining event. It still goes on now and I doubt it was as extreme as the LA riots in '92.

Then you weren't there. It was a HUGE story that year and sparked racial tensions across the country. You should maybe look it up.

 

[RustyNails]

What didn't happen in 1986?

Chernobyl, the West Berlin Disco bombing followed by our retaliatory strike on Libya, the first televised Senate proceedings, South Africa in ruins, Reagan's continued existence, the failed talks in Reykjavik, a revolution in the Phillipines, the beginning of Iran-Contra, the beating of young black men in Queens and elsewhere...

Ugh.

Edit: The spawning of PD

Ugh.

 

[Ether_Snake]

So Whole Foods was shouted down by bigots for carrying Halal food items

Here's the vilest of remarks:

......
...Do you ever reach a point in your life where you just run out of ways expressing disbelief over what is happening to this country...?

This coming from the same people who say let business do what it wants.

 

[besada]

Challenger explosion. Every American remembers that day and it became a major stain on NASA, who were considered flawless until then.

No idea how I forgot that. It was heartbreaking.

 

[Clipjoint]

A nuclear meltdown, war in Libya, revolutions . . . . the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Well, South Africa has changed for the better.

Now we have Israel.

 

[Karma Kramer]

We're keeping ourselves knowledgeable so that we can possibly sway others into doing the same.

I know what you're talking about, it's seriously fucking depressing, but no matter how bad things get, just watch an episode of the West Wing to revitalize the will to keep fighting.

Sorry for coming across a bit cynical, but I guess this largely stems from me not being able to persuade my mom (fox news watcher) on anything political. The brainwashing is just too effective for me, I feel powerless. I do think there is something we could do , GAF, but it would involve a lot of work from many individuals here. We need to formulate a website that is as non-partisan as possible that like a RPG videogame or something tracks stats on every elected official in politics right now, showcasing how similar the two parties are, how corrupt most of them are (financing), and how hypocritical our political system is (republicans spending more than democrats, tax cuts timelines, etc)...

Basically a very detailed but extremely clear and honest representation of our political climate. Something that we can spread over the internet. Something that can give people tools to compile data, make graph comparisons, and network with like minded individuals (hopefully sparking new third parties).

 

[teruterubozu]

And what exactly are we doing by reading day in and day out how messed up our politics are?

Not much. The media conditions us to believe that the government is the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT issue in our lives. Taking a break from it is a very good thing.

 

[besada]

Let's just pretend I did a long post here about the pointlessness of sparking third parties without reforming the electoral system.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Let's just pretend I did a long post here about the pointlessness of sparking third parties without reforming the electoral system.

Well regardless, I think this kind of website would be incredibly useful and would be very effective at dismantling the media's control over political commentary.

 

[ToxicAdam]

Any idea a collection of people may come up with will be co-opted by the dominant parties. It's happened time and time again. Then you become part of their base because you believe the rhetoric and fear the other.

 

[Dude Abides]

So Whole Foods was shouted down by bigots for carrying Halal food items

Here's the vilest of remarks:

......
...Do you ever reach a point in your life where you just run out of ways expressing disbelief over what is happening to this country...?

Irony is that Whole Foods' CEO is basically a tea party type.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Any idea a collection of people may come up with will be co-opted by the dominant parties. It's happened time and time again. Then you become part of their base because you believe the rhetoric and fear the other.

So what do we do then... are you saying its hopeless?

 

[empty vessel]

Let's just pretend I did a long post here about the pointlessness of sparking third parties without reforming the electoral system.

Ha. shortcut. Or is that a warp?

 

[teruterubozu]

So what do we do then... are you saying its hopeless?

Turn on, tune in, drop out.

 

[besada]

Talking about Howard Beach reminded me of a song I really liked, but I can't remember who they were or what the song was called, just that it mentioned Howard Beach. And my google-fu is failing me. So frustrating.

Edit: Hah, figured it out. It was Miracle Legion's "Snacks and Candy" although it was actually about the 1989 murder of Yusef Hawkins in Bensonhurst.

 

[ToxicAdam]

So what do we do then... are you saying its hopeless?

Is it hopeless to see widespread, systemic change in your lifetime? Probably.

But you can craft your rock and throw it at the monolith and chip away at it. So, go seek out some like-minded people and go make some rocks.

Someone posted an interesting link earlier .. let me go fetch it:

Here it is:

http://www.americanselect.org/

Article about it

 

[Dude Abides]

So what do we do then... are you saying its hopeless?

As besada said, it's hopeless until we change our system, unless there is some absolutely huge divisive issue like slavery (last time a third party amounted to anything).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law

 

[Skiptastic]

Here's one posted by a former mod (guess who!).

I gotta admit, I was not expecting that former mod lol.

 

[besada]

Ha. shortcut. Or is that a warp?

I should probably just save one of the dozens of posts I've made about it and paste it from time to time.

Obligatory: http://fairvote.org

 

[Puddles]

Sorry for coming across a bit cynical, but I guess this largely stems from me not being able to persuade my mom (fox news watcher) on anything political. The brainwashing is just too effective for me, I feel powerless. I do think there is something we could do , GAF, but it would involve a lot of work from many individuals here. We need to formulate a website that is as non-partisan as possible that like a RPG videogame or something tracks stats on every elected official in politics right now, showcasing how similar the two parties are, how corrupt most of them are (financing), and how hypocritical our political system is (republicans spending more than democrats, tax cuts timelines, etc)...

Basically a very detailed but extremely clear and honest representation of our political climate. Something that we can spread over the internet. Something that can give people tools to compile data, make graph comparisons, and network with like minded individuals (hopefully sparking new third parties).

I've been wanting to build a website just like this for awhile now. I know some coding, but I'd probably need help. I doubt that will be a problem on NeoGAF.

I'd be willing to put up the cash for the domain. Can you guys think of any good names?

 

[empty vessel]

As besada said, it's hopeless until we change our system, unless there is some absolutely huge divisive issue like slavery (last time a third party amounted to anything).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law

Yeah, this is the kind of things that movements are necessary to accomplish. I think it is possible that a third party could succeed without electoral reform, but it would take a truly massive movement centered around a whole political platform. And the polarization that the two-party engenders makes building this kind of movement exceedingly difficult and all but impossible. It's just very difficult to see such a movement being built. I wouldn't rule it out as impossible, because you never know what material conditions may bring to the fore, but the odds are just imaginably long. Electoral reform is easier, because you don't need that kind of extensive ideological cohesiveness. People on the left and right can be like-minded about the narrow principles underlying such reform. And once that reform is accomplished, third parties may be able to flourish. In other words, it's an intermediate step towards the goal.

Still, and in either case, a movement has to be built. In the more realistic scenario of a movement for electoral and campaign finance reform, that movement will have as its focus screening candidates of both major parties for their support for electoral reform and pledges among its members not to vote for candidates who do not support it, even if they are of the same party. It's a lot like Grover Norquist's anti-tax movement, which has secured pledges from tons of politicians not to raise taxes. Except instead of having something incredibly stupid and harmful as a goal like Norquist's movement, it will have something useful and beneficial to Americans.

 

[Piecake]

As besada said, it's hopeless until we change our system, unless there is some absolutely huge divisive issue like slavery (last time a third party amounted to anything).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law

Jessie Ventura begs to differ. Depressingly enough, if I had the choice between Ventura and Pawlenty as our governor again, I would choose Ventura every time.

 

[Incognito]

The only solution is to start joking about it. Everything else will either give you a stroke or get you out in jail.

Not 86 for me (I was only 3...) but the your prescription is certainly correct. It's always useful to keep things in perspective and not to get too high, or low. Things usually work themselves out!

 

[besada]

Jessie Ventura begs to differ. Depressingly enough, if I had the choice between Ventura and Pawlenty as our governor again, I would choose Ventura every time.

Jesse Ventura didn't change our system, though. He was unable to enact his political ideas because he had no suck with the legislature. At best he vetoed a bunch of bills, and that's not exactly change, so much as it's executive gridlock.

And then he left, and his presence made virtually no long lasting impact on the state. Nor did it have any lasting effect on the tendency of a plurality system to tend toward two party solutions.

It was a blip in the data like a host of other blips that left no discernable impression.

 

[RustyNails]

Sorry for coming across a bit cynical, but I guess this largely stems from me not being able to persuade my mom (fox news watcher) on anything political. The brainwashing is just too effective for me, I feel powerless. I do think there is something we could do , GAF, but it would involve a lot of work from many individuals here. We need to formulate a website that is as non-partisan as possible that like a RPG videogame or something tracks stats on every elected official in politics right now, showcasing how similar the two parties are, how corrupt most of them are (financing), and how hypocritical our political system is (republicans spending more than democrats, tax cuts timelines, etc)...

Basically a very detailed but extremely clear and honest representation of our political climate. Something that we can spread over the internet. Something that can give people tools to compile data, make graph comparisons, and network with like minded individuals (hopefully sparking new third parties).

I like the idea but no clue how I can help. I'll pitch in. It's a pretty daunting task if you ask me, and your website interface will be a make it or break it aspect.

 

[Vicetrailia]

I'm sorry but the war if Afghanistan is the ultimate version of fiscal responsibility right now.

We will not win there and I guarantee that we will quit. If you think about it, 911 did a real number on us.

We can't throw enough money there militarily or strategically.
Our military cannot be them at their own game.
There are too many players fighting for control and they are relentless and will never stop fighting, even when the money disappears.

 

[Piecake]

Jesse Ventura didn't change our system, though. He was unable to enact his political ideas because he had no suck with the legislature. At best he vetoed a bunch of bills, and that's not exactly change, so much as it's executive gridlock.

And then he left, and his presence made virtually no long lasting impact on the state. Nor did it have any lasting effect on the tendency of a plurality system to tend toward two party solutions.

It was a blip in the data like a host of other blips that left no discernable impression.

Oh, i know. I was being depressingly sarcastic/snarky. I do think that Minnesota has one of the stronger 3rd parties in the nation. Dean Barclay did win like 15% of the vote in the 2008 senate race - though that is pretty pathetic if that is one of your notable achievements as a party

 

[Puddles]

First things first: we need to think of a good domain name.

Second: anyone know a good web hosting company?

 

[Chichikov]

I'm sorry but the war if Afghanistan is the ultimate version of fiscal responsibility right now.

We will not win there and I guarantee that we will quit. If you think about it, 911 did a real number on us.

We can't throw enough money there militarily or strategically.
Our military cannot be them at their own game.
There are too many players fighting for control and they are relentless and will never stop fighting, even when the money disappears.

Obama had a great opportunity to declare victory and GTFO after we killed Bin Laden.
But he squandered that.

 

[ToxicAdam]

Jesus, this HSR project in California is going to be massively overbudget:

The California High-Speed Rail Authority's new cost estimates released Tuesday show the initial stretch of construction between Merced and Bakersfield will cost $10 billion to $13.9 billion depending on how it's built. Project planners had previously pegged the section at $6.8 billion.

They picked this leg to start on because it was supposed to be the cheapest and easiest to gain access rights to.

When California voters approved the project in 2008, the state said it would cost $33 billion, but it soared to $43 billion a year later -- already making it the single largest public works project in the nation. Even now, the state only has about one-fourth of the money needed to fund the entire rail line and no clear plan on how to secure the rest.

If the cost of the entire project balloons at the same pace as the Central Valley section, the San Francisco-to-Anaheim railroad would cost from $63 billion to $87 billion, similar to what independent analysts have been predicting. And those figures do not include inflation, which could push the final cost toward a staggering $100 billion.

"It leaves what looks like a potential tremendous burden on the California taxpayer," said Assemblyman Jerry Hill, D-San Mateo, whose Peninsula district has led the chorus of boos for the project. "We can't double our debt obligations for the high-speed rail system. That would all be done at the expense of education, and health and human services, things that people (need)."

 

[empty vessel]

Jesus, this HSR project in California is going to be massively overbudget:

They picked this leg to start on because it was supposed to be the cheapest and easiest to gain access rights to.

Hey, that's just more money in the people's hands and less in the government's hands. Starve the beast! (Demand-side version)

 

[TacticalFox88]

I gotta admit, I was not expecting that former mod lol.

Dilbert used to be a mod? Holy shiiit

 

[ToxicAdam]

Dilbert used to be a mod? Holy shiiit

No, it's -jinx-. He changed his username at some point.

 

[Mr. E. Yis]

First things first: we need to think of a good domain name.

Second: anyone know a good web hosting company?

My ideas for "plain politics" and "political clarity" are taken. :\ I can't think of anything else.


Did anyone see Roemer on MSNBC tonight? He's in the Republican Presidential race, and is big on campaign finance reform. He's limiting his campaign contributions to $100 max for any individual/company. I'm not sure of his politics, but that is refreshing to see.