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[cooljeanius]

Something more complex.

Can we do preference ballots? That way we can do an instant runoff.

 

[RustyNails]

Anyone who isn't "left" in modern American politics isn't likely to be educated or sane.

I wouldn't say people like David Frum, George Will, George HW Bush and Jon Huntsman are insane even though they're right wing. The old establishment strands are still there. The batty teabaggers have shifted the weight so far to the right in GOP it seems like a "sane" republican is non-existing entity. I mean, Huntsman supports theory of evolution and gasp, other "science-ey" stuff!

 

[speculawyer]

LOL..are you not paying attention to the main Reps stance..ie fuck obama its all his fault? These spineless worms will do what they do. Shift blame and offer zero solutions to anything.

Obama should turn around and say "My mistake was continuing with GOP policies . . . I extended the Bush tax cuts and that was a mistake. Following GOP policies has let America continue down a road of economic stagnation".

Of course, that would require the Obama have balls.

 

[Cyan]

I vote for Cyan

Hobbes avatars: right for gaf, right for America

I like your style.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Obama should turn around and say "My mistake was continuing with GOP policies . . . I extended the Bush tax cuts and that was a mistake. Following GOP policies has let America continue down a road of economic stagnation".

Of course, that would require the Obama have balls.

I had to Extend the Bush Tax Cuts because without that GOP wouldn't ratify START or extend unemployment benefits...

I had to compromise with GOP because they were willing to take America to the brink of ruin and another depression to satisfy the tea party.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Anyone who isn't "left" in modern American politics isn't likely to be educated or sane.

 

[KHarvey16]

Showing the typical spending habits of an American and then showing you the paltry amount someone collecting extended unemployment actually represents on our entire economy is not helpful?

It isn't because you just assume that characterization simply must mean it has little or no effect on job creation. Why? How?

Isn't that what we are talking about? The actual REAL LIFE effects someone collecting benefits might have on demand? That's what I did .. I showed you what the typical American might spend in a given year and what a paltry amount it represents to our economy to where it would have a descernible effect on our economy.

Same as above. You have not translated this at all into what we're talking about. You also are only taking into account direct spending, not the future benefits of sustaining an individual through a period of unemployment.

I'm the only one here talking in real-world terms. You have only deflected by producing hypotheticals and "I don't know's".

A few real world terms sprinkled in amongst a large helping of hand waving.

Yes, but that's my point. This money is not big enough to significantly effect demand.

According to...?

We already know the effects of unemployment compensation in our economy, because we know what the spending power of people making 20k a year represents to our economy. So, this amount (of recipients) is even a small fraction of that small number.

And you, again, have failed to translate this into terms relevant to this discussion.

I already iterated to you that the GWB stimulus checks had very little effect on improving employment or stimulating demand earlier in the decade. That was a MASSIVE influx of small amounts of money to every consumer in the economy. Much moreso than the amount of money that is provided through parts of the Obama plan.

The abstract of that paper gives a reason for that. Does that reason also apply to unemployment? Do people use it to pay off debt and save? How do you know?

So my argument is only incredulous because you continually sidestep the points I make and talk in circle back. I haven't even touched on the fact that our economy is completely interwoven with the global economy, so simply giving someone 100 dollars and expecting all that money to drive up demand with American companies is flimsy at best.

Why are we expecting "all that money" to do anything? You are asserting what it won't do and haven't provided any facts to effectively substantiate why. You tell me how little it represents in the total spending of the US economy, wave your hand and somehow imagine you've effectively argued why unemployment insurance is a bad way to stimulate job creation. There are a hell of a lot of leaps between the fact you begin with and the position you use it to assert. You cover these leaps with that argument from incredulity, since it's plainly obvious why one leads to the other and you can't imagine having to explain it.

 

[AlteredBeast]

Didn't have time to read through the thread to gauge reactions, but how did you guys like the president's speech? I love his speeches like crazy for some reason, and I am about as conservative as they come. I thought the speech was well-delivered, if not a little annoying at the sentence structure. The actual content was pretty much all fine by me, too bad Repubs will block a lot of stuff that were probably their ideas first because it is coming from a democrat.

Politics

 

[RustyNails]

Obama should turn around and say "My mistake was continuing with GOP policies . . . I extended the Bush tax cuts and that was a mistake. Following GOP policies has let America continue down a road of economic stagnation".

Of course, that would require the Obama have balls.

He can't say that. Voters will kick him out in a moment's notice if he comes anywhere close to admitting mistakes, regardless of whether it's true or not. He has to make every legislative victory seem like his own. He can't be on the record saying that. It's seen as a sign of weakness. For example, look at Dick Cheney today. He's still adamant that he hasn't made any single mistake during his stay in the white house.

 

[adamsappel]

I'd vote for Empty Vessel. I'd like to nominate mAcOdIn as his V.P., just to make it interesting.

 

[AlteredBeast]

He can't say that. Voters will kick him out in a moment's notice if he comes anywhere close to admitting mistakes, regardless of whether it's true or not. He has to make every legislative victory seem like his own. He can't be on the record saying that. It's seen as a sign of weakness. For example, look at Dick Cheney today. He's still adamant that he hasn't made any single mistake during his stay in the white house.

I for one respect people who tell it straight rather than dance around the facts or records. I will not vote for Rick Perry under any circumstance, for example. Not to say that he is especially bad, as nearly all politicians running for president in the last 15 years are buffoons, but something about him just makes my skin crawl.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Anyone can submit a bill. Anyone. You, me, the President, Timedog. Only a Congressperson can file a bill, but anyone can submit one. It's how lobbyists have been writing our laws for years. They draft a bill, then find Congresspersons to sponsor and file it.

Do they even teach civics in school any more?

Once again, thanks for being a dick.

To clarify, I was under the impression that the President of the United States was not allowed to actually draft bills in order to preserve the constitutional function of each branch of government. Apparently I was wrong. How dare I.

:.(


FYI, I am also a naturalized citizen.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

So I would like to the candates to declare where they stand on the political compass:

Some examples so you can get an idea where you stand:

I've made one judging where you stand from your posts (keep in mind that up until recently I've rarely posted in here):

Can we do preference ballots? That way we can do an instant runoff.

That's what I wanted to do but its too late.

I'm just doing the process of elimination now.

notsureifserious.gif

I can't imagine any sane person voting for this Republican party. 20 to 30 years ago? Sure. Now?

I wouldn't say people like David Frum, George Will, George HW Bush and Jon Huntsman are insane even though they're right wing. The old establishment strands are still there. The batty teabaggers have shifted the weight so far to the right in GOP it seems like a "sane" republican is non-existing entity. I mean, Huntsman supports theory of evolution and gasp, other "science-ey" stuff!

I agree, but the current right wing is just bonkers.

 

[ToxicAdam]

It isn't because you just assume that characterization simply must mean it has little or no effect on job creation. Why? How?

No, I don't assume anything. I have clearly shown why I feel the way I do.

Same as above. You have not translated this at all into what we're talking about. You also are only taking into account direct spending, not the future benefits of sustaining an individual through a period of unemployment.

There is argument that continually extending unemployment actually artificially keeps unemployment high. But, we don't live in multiple worlds to test that out.

So, we are not discussing the future benefits of decreasing unemployment rates either.

According to...?

The paltry amount of spending power of the people we are talking about and their actual effect on our economy.

And you, again, have failed to translate this into terms relevant to this discussion.

The abstract of that paper gives a reason for that. Does that reason also apply to unemployment? Do people use it to pay off debt and save? How do you know?

Do unemployed people stop paying debts?

At some point, you just have to assume that people earning a certain wage within a bad economy will react in a similar way. Even if it is not a 1:1 comparison.

Why are we expecting "all that money" to do anything? You are asserting what it won't do and haven't provided any facts to effectively substantiate why.

You were the one who made the simplistic case of "more money = more demand". Yet, I just showed you that an incredible amount of that money does not mean more demand for businesses in this country.

 

[RustyNails]

I for one respect people who tell it straight rather than dance around the facts or records. I will not vote for Rick Perry under any circumstance, for example. Not to say that he is especially bad, as nearly all politicians running for president in the last 15 years are buffoons, but something about him just makes my skin crawl.

If you are the President, you are first and foremost a politician. If I ask you "would you support raising capital gains tax", you can't reply "yes" without alienating the business class. You gotta couch your statements in a sugary syrup and nudge at the idea of what you want to happen. Then you gotta make it clear why you want it and why wanting it is not detrimental to anyone, especially the target audience. This is why people like Ron Paul can never get elected. They're straight shooters.

http://i.imgur.com/TROch.gif

I'm actually little to the right of EV, not in the bullseye center.

 

[Oblivion]

Whoever proposes drive-through abortion clinics will be the one that gets my vote.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Whoever proposes drive-through abortion clinics will be the one that gets my vote.

Do you get a discount punch card? I mean how else can you encourage repeat business as a way for Obama to fuel the economy! lol

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I'm actually little to the right of EV, not in the bullseye center.

For more laughs look where I'm at on it.

 

[YoungHav]

what a Lvl 99 Troll

 

[empty vessel]

I'd vote for Empty Vessel. I'd like to nominate mAcOdIn as his V.P., just to make it interesting.

I like mAcOdIn. He's the only other traditional conservative besides TA still in existence with any sanity. (I jest, I'm sure there's one or two more in the country.) Where is he, anyway?

I'm not left wing. I'm indepedent . . . that is why you got my vote.

Yep, you're like the real-deal centrist, probably that Midwestern upbringing. If this were the 50's or 60's, I think you'd be considered a moderate conservative and vote Republican. I still like you, though. You have an evidence-based approach to understanding the world, and that's good enough for me.

 

[Suikoguy]

I can see the point TA is making with unemployment. If you just run the numbers of what unemployment is currently injecting into the economy, the effect will not be very dramatic.

My view is somewhat similar, with the caveat that what do you expect the person to do when there is no job available, even when considering jobs "below" where they were previously. Teenagers can move back in with their parents, but what about older adults?

Which is why the job training idea in Georgia is quite interesting that Toxic posted a few pages back. I hope it really is targeting open job positions.

Also, thanks for posting the Al Franken idea too, that would certainly give my Dad some work.

 

[Byakuya769]

Should we all retake our political spectrum surveys for fun?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

what a Lvl 99 Troll

Why is there a poster of the Iranian President next to him? lol

I assume it's one of those ads related (not to GB in any way) about Iranian Nuclear Threats.

Should we all retake our political spectrum surveys for fun?

Nah, I just have that saved on my desktop.

 

[SoulPlaya]

The political compass always gets me. Take a look where I stand. Do I win some commie prize GAF?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

The political compass always gets me. Take a look where I stand. Do I win some commie prize GAF?

I just think it's funny that foreign policy (or even the death penalty) seems to have no effect on pushing it to the right in my case. I've always wondered how it weighs certain things.

 

[ToxicAdam]

Guileless was probably the best conservative poster GAF ever had. But, he only rarely posts about college football.


Here's a Political Compass blast from the past.

 

[Snake]

My vote is for Rusty.

Though I'd gladly support EV's election to the office of "Speaker of the Thread."




Edit: As for my Political Compass:

 

[Byakuya769]

Interesting.

 

[besada]

The political compass always gets me. Take a look where I stand. Do I win some commie prize GAF?

Mine's that far left, but considerably less authoritarian.

 

[Vicetrailia]

I don't think that unemployment does anything to help job creation or stimulate demand. If anything on that level it merely sustains decreased demand to a point, which might save even more jobs that would have been eliminated otherwise.

Regardless, unemployment has a real purpose and job creation/sustainability is not it.

As much as unemployment can be looked down upon, how many faults the system has or how much it frustrates the people, unemployment can be godsend to the individual.

 

[turnbuckle]

I'd vote for EV and would like him to have TA be his VP

 

[AlteredBeast]

Shocker!

Although I personally believe that many questions are written in a way that would make me feel like a prick. I answered the way that the question was written, but not necessarily how reality might actually be.

 

[besada]

Find out who's paying off your doctor:

http://projects.propublica.org/docdollars/

They also have the reader's guide for Obama up.

 

[Aaron Strife]

So I'm pretty happy that the proposals Obama outlined are not only decent, but actually form a bill.

That he's sending to Congress.

I feel like Obama's been too hands-off with big ticket items, leaving senators and congresscritters to sort out the nitty gritty themselves, so I'm glad the White House is drafting legislation and sending it to Congress to consider - I feel like the Republicans have had too much of a grip on the national agenda lately, even if the Senate/White House is able to stonewall most of it anyway.

This bill will probably be able to pass the Senate (53 Dems+Brown,Murkowski,Collins,Snowe, only 3 away from breaking a filibuster). More worried about the House.

ed: Oh, and calling it American Jobs Act? Genius. When have Democrats ever come up with good, easily digestible names for their bills. Healthcare bill should've been the Medicare for All bill.

 

[TacticalFox88]

I'll be EV's Secretary of Defense.

 

[Suikoguy]

So I'm pretty happy that the proposals Obama outlined are not only decent, but actually form a bill.

That he's sending to Congress.

I feel like Obama's been too hands-off with big ticket items, leaving senators and congresscritters to sort out the nitty gritty themselves, so I'm glad the White House is drafting legislation and sending it to Congress to consider - I feel like the Republicans have had too much of a grip on the national agenda lately, even if the Senate/White House is able to stonewall most of it anyway.

This bill will probably be able to pass the Senate (53 Dems+Brown,Murkowski,Collins,Snowe, only 3 away from breaking a filibuster). More worried about the House.

This is a really good point, has he done this recently with anything?

Oh, and I retook the political compass. A couple of my views of changed a bit, but still close to where I was a couple years ago.

Economic Left/Right: -7.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.08

 

[Puddles]

I found this blogger on the internet. At first I thought he was just a completely moron with an utterly despicable worldview. But after reading enough of his stuff, I decided he was just a troll.

The ultimate solution for a fair income tax policy

Are there really people who work only 40 hours a week or less?

But if the guy is serious, I seriously wish we could deport him to the Darien Gap and bring in a struggling immigrant who will be happy to be here and won't post this kind of drivel (if it's serious).

 

[Jenga]

i nominate jenga for president of presidents

 

[Gr1mLock]

Obama should turn around and say "My mistake was continuing with GOP policies . . . I extended the Bush tax cuts and that was a mistake. Following GOP policies has let America continue down a road of economic stagnation".

Of course, that would require the Obama have balls.

Youre right. (fuck i wish i had a rebuttal).

 

[Timedog]

I don't get this. It says Libertarianism on the bottom and the right.

 

[Jak140]

Economic Left/Right: -7.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.56

I've shifted farther left since I took this in 2005. Not that surprising, I guess, considering everything that's happened since then

Economic Left/Right: -5.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.00

 

[Timedog]

 

[Gr1mLock]

wtf...where is that survey?

 

[jamesinclair]

Im writing myself in as the green party candidate. Free tickets on James Air for anyone who votes for me. And naturally, free condoms for all.

 

[teruterubozu]

Guileless was probably the best conservative poster GAF ever had. But, he only rarely posts about college football.


Here's a Political Compass blast from the past.

I miss Guileless. Those were the good old days of PoliGaf.

 

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

Karl Rove is 100% spot-on regarding Obama's speech. Obama's speech in 12 words:

Presumptuous: He demanded – 17 times – that Congress immediately pass a bill no one has seen.

Tired: The speech contained little new, just mostly recycled ideas or extensions of current programs that haven’t worked.

Small: Its proposals, while expensive, offer little hope of really jump-starting the economy.

Mind-boggling: Mr. Obama wants to drains hundreds of billions from Social Security for another stimulus.

Slippery: It will all be paid for, the president said, but it’s up to a Congressional committee to figure out how.

Misleading: These were just GOP ideas. Really? Republicans have proposed another $450 billion stimulus bill, Mr. Obama?

Arrogant: He refused to consult in advance with anyone on the Hill, even refusing a meeting request from the House Speaker and Majority Leader.

Self-centered: The only job he’s really concerned about is his own. If he really wanted a bipartisan package, he would have worked with Republicans to come up with one.

Unnecessary: The president would have been better off traveling the country this week to lay out proposals, surrounded by people he could claim would might benefit.

Completely political: Before he spoke, Mr. Obama sent supporters an email titled “Before I head to the Capitol” that ended with “You should donate today.”

Hyper-partisan: This speech – especially its angry tone – was aimed at setting up the Republicans for blame next fall. Then he’ll say the economy would be better if the GOP has just done what I ordered them to do.

Misguided: Mr. Obama is betting his re-elect on a massive spending bill.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/09/09/twelve-words-to-describe-obamas-jobs-speech/#ixzz1XSoclzMz

 

[Tim-E]

Another vote for EV, because I'll never get to vote for a real lefty outside of the Internet.

Edit: That looks like a lot more than 12 words.

 

[Sirpopopop]

I will vote for RustyNails.

 

[Invisible_Insane]

Ah, the political compass. I'm like -7, -8 on it, last time I checked.

By the way: As I listen to the coverage of the speech from last night, (I don't get to watch anything live anymore, damnit.) I find one particular part of the speech particularly telling.

Pass this jobs bill, and the typical working family will get a $1,500 tax cut next year. Fifteen hundred dollars that would have been taken out of your pocket will go into your pocket. This expands on the tax cut that Democrats and Republicans already passed for this year. If we allow that tax cut to expire -- if we refuse to act -- middle-class families will get hit with a tax increase at the worst possible time. We can’t let that happen. I know that some of you have sworn oaths to never raise any taxes on anyone for as long as you live. Now is not the time to carve out an exception and raise middle-class taxes, which is why you should pass this bill right away.

That was the line the last time EGTRRA was set to expire. It will be the line the next time around. EGTRRA isn't going anywhere.

 

[Sirpopopop]

I've made a rightward shift since the last time the poll was posted:

Economic Left/Right: -5.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.56