• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

PoliGAF 2011: Of Weiners, Boehners, Santorum, and Teabags

Status
Not open for further replies.
reilo said:
I think prices are perverted by the absurdly high for-profit model that is the health insurance agency. That's another step we need to take: make all health insurance providers non-profits.

The cost problem isn't in health insurance companies (although those companies are indeed nasty), the cost problem is chiefly rooted in health care providers:

• Of the 138 health plans in the United States with at least 100,000 medical enrollees,
84 or 61% are nonprofit.

• Of the 203,203,306 total medical enrollees of these 138 health plans, 97,931,924 or
48% are in nonprofit health plans.

• It is estimated that nonprofit Blue Cross Blue Shield plans have about 34% of the
commercial risk medical market and 32% of the commercial administrative services only
(ASO) medical market and that other nonprofit health plans have about 20% of
the commercial risk medical market and 10% of the commercial ASO medical
market, with for-profit plans accounting for the remaining percentages of these two
medical markets.

http://www.nonprofithealthcare.org/resources/BasicFactsAndFigures-NonprofitHealthPlans9.9.08.pdf (PDF)
 
The deal Obama wants will finish him politically:

1. Democrats/Democrat leaning independents and old people won't like the cuts to SS/Medicare
2. Conservative leaning independents won't like any of the "tax hikes"
3. True Independents won't like either...

I don't understand why with the 2 trillion in other spending cuts Democrats have already agreed to, add 1 trillion in new revenue = good deal. Stay the line.
 

Evlar

Banned
cartoon_soldier said:
The deal Obama wants will finish him politically:

1. Democrats/Democrat leaning independents and old people won't like the cuts to SS/Medicare
2. Conservative leaning independents won't like any of the "tax hikes"
3. True Independents won't like either...

I don't understand why with the 2 trillion in other spending cuts Democrats have already agreed to, add 1 trillion in new revenue = good deal. Stay the line.
He's offering it because he knows the Republicans won't take it.
 
Dr. Pangloss said:
Sorry Skiptastic. I was being sarcastic. I think its okay for the government to promote responsible actions and discourage irresponsible ones. For instance saving for retirement gets the benefit we just described. I'm sure many people agree on the general concepts of everyday things like more competition and individual responsibility. It's just that we diverge on the government's role in making sure everyone is taken care of.
Ah, I see. My bad.
 

Gaborn

Member
balladofwindfishes said:
2 wouldn't have voted for him even if he cut 100 trillion dollars and kicked all the mexicans out of Texas.

Actually Obama overwhelmingly won independents in '08 (to the point that would include conservative leaners). He's got an unfavorable rating from them now.
 
http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.c...n-financial-crisis/?smid=tw-nytimes&seid=auto

yes yes yes
Sheila C. Bair has landed a book deal to give her inside account of the financial crisis, just as her tumultuous five-year term as chairwoman of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation has ended.

Ms. Bair’s book, “Bull by the Horns: What Main Street Must Do To Fix Wall Street,” was sold to Free Press, an imprint of Simon & Schuster. It will be published in 2012, before the presidential election.

Martha K. Levin, the publisher of Free Press, said that Ms. Bair’s book would stand out as one of the few stories of the crisis told by a high-ranking woman.

“Ninety-nine-point-nine percent of the people from whom we’ve heard have all been men,” Ms. Levin said. “This isn’t meant to be a feminist perspective on the banking crisis, but this is the first time that we’re going to hear from one of the very few women who was involved at a very high level of the banking crisis.”

also be sure to read the NYTimes magazine piece on Bair that was posted on sunday.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
reilo said:
Huh? It wasn't un-American before the 80s when all health insurance was non-profit.

un-American lol.

What a stupid ideal to hold up to.


I thought you were saying the gov't should mandate that health care insurance companies can NOT make a profit for their services.

If that's the case then yes (and I hate to use the term) is unAmerican. What would be the point of this?
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
mckmas8808 said:
I thought you were saying the gov't should mandate that health care insurance companies can NOT make a profit for their services.

If that's the case then yes (and I hate to use the term) is unAmerican. What would be the point of this?
Banning a conflict of interest?
 
balladofwindfishes said:
2 wouldn't have voted for him even if he cut 100 trillion dollars and kicked all the mexicans out of Texas.
I wouldn't necessarily say that. While conservative independents, ,like their namesake, lean conservative, they aren't the hardcore delusional and totally abstract from reality that the current Republican base is. Obama got a large number of independents three years ago when he was elected, and lots of conservative independents were in that overall percentage.
 

eznark

Banned
mckmas8808 said:
But individuals would not be able to set market prices. Businesses will. Just like the banking industry, you'll probably end up with 8 big insurance companies that would all work with an understanding that profit is the first goal and that individuals don't really have a choice when it comes to health care like they do with TVs or microwaves.

I think what you're really afraid of is the Geico gecko hawking health insurance.
 
TacticalFox88 said:
I wouldn't necessarily say that. While conservative independents, ,like their namesake, lean conservative, they aren't the hardcore delusional and totally abstract from reality that the current Republican base is. Obama got a large number of independents three years ago when he was elected, and lots of conservative independents were in that overall percentage.
It's just that a lot of so called "conservative independents" are really just tea-party people under a different.
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
mckmas8808 said:
I thought you were saying the gov't should mandate that health care insurance companies can NOT make a profit for their services.

If that's the case then yes (and I hate to use the term) is unAmerican. What would be the point of this?
Why should they make a profit? They're making money on banking that people will get sick. That's not an industry, that's a scam.

Besides, like I mentioned earlier, health insurance companies used to be all non-profit as mandated by law until the 1980s. It wasn't unAmerican before then.

What a stupid term and ideal.
 
reilo said:
Why should they make a profit? They're making money on banking that people will get sick. That's not an industry, that's a scam.

Besides, like I mentioned earlier, health insurance companies used to be all non-profit as mandated by law until the 1980s. It wasn't unAmerican before then.

What a stupid term and ideal.
Wait, WHAT!? Who the fuck thought that was good idea?!?
 

Chichikov

Member
Incognito said:
also be sure to read the NYTimes magazine piece on Bair that was posted on sunday.
Seconded.
It was a fantastic piece.
And it really illustrates how this whole mess is less liberals vs. conservatives and more giant financial companies making the government put their well being ahead of that of the American people.

Obviously, this will get very little traction, because as we all know, that meltdown was no one's fault.

TacticalFox88 said:
Wait, WHAT!? Who the fuck thought that was good idea?!?
bHgaB.jpg
 

Evlar

Banned
TacticalFox88 said:
Wait, WHAT!? Who the fuck thought that was good idea?!?
Would you like a show of hands or will a voice vote suffice?

EDIT: I think you meant the opposite of the way I took it, i.e. you meant "Who thought it was a good idea to let them be for-profit?"
 

eznark

Banned
Chichikov said:
Seconded.
It was a fantastic piece.
And it really illustrates how this whole mess is less liberals vs. conservatives and more giant financial companies making the government put their well being ahead of that of the American people.

Obviously, this will get very little traction, because as we all know, that meltdown was no one's fault.

It had me from hello (i.e. the first line).
 
eznark said:
Sure you will, assuming your skill set is in demand.
No you won't.

You must live in fantasy land if you believe that.
Not when they can hire someone 50% less qualified than you, at 50% the wage and have him do 100% of your work at lower (but still "acceptable") quality.

Quality of work has tanked so much over the last 20 years, that employers just don't care. Whatever the bottom line gets them, the lowest possible quality at the cheapest price is fine by them.

Employees to a company are no different than the bolts they buy to put stuff together. If they find a bolt that works 75% of the time at 50% of the cost, they'll use it. If it rusts in 2 years, versus rusting in 10, but is 25% cheaper, they'll go with the first part. Because the customer has already bought the product, and they will continue to buy the product. And like that, the company will continue without out at a cheaper price. The work might be lower quality, but that's even better because that means more profit!
 

besada

Banned
TacticalFox88 said:
Wait, WHAT!? Who the fuck thought that was good idea?!?
Doctors and insurance companies, mostly. All sorts of things that are allowed now, from doctors owning their own lab facilities to for profit insurance used to be regulated.

And when Doctors own the hospitals and labs, and run them as profit generating entities, you see increased unnecessary testing exploding. We built incentives into the system to drive up the cost of health care, and now we can't figure out why it's so expensive.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
reilo said:
Why should they make a profit? They're making money on banking that people will get sick. That's not an industry, that's a scam.

Besides, like I mentioned earlier, health insurance companies used to be all non-profit as mandated by law until the 1980s. It wasn't unAmerican before then.

What a stupid term and ideal.


What law and year was that? Never heard that before.
 
Evlar said:
Would you like a show of hands or will a voice vote suffice?

EDIT: I think you meant the opposite of the way I took it, i.e. you meant "Who thought it was a good idea to let them be for-profit?"
Yeah, that's what I meant. I mean holy shit. Maybe our healthcare wouldn't be AS shitty if they still had those regulations in place from the get go.
 

Chichikov

Member
eznark said:
It had me from hello (i.e. the first line).
I knew it would.

But really, it's not about left vs. right.
It's about effective government for the people vs. corruption by special interests.

p.s.
Things eznark is wrong about -
  • Brent Favre
  • Congressional confirmation
  • The appropriate temperature for coffee
  • Public financing of stadiums.
  • The Dropkick Murphys
  • Sheila Bair
  • How to spell The Dropkick Murphys
  • The economy
  • Taxation
  • National security
  • Healthcare
  • Climate change
 

eznark

Banned
balladofwindfishes said:
No you won't.

You must live in fantasy land if you believe that.

Like I said, you need a skill set that is in demand. Manual labor has become a commodity outside of a few skills (such as welding, where last I read they were making a killing!)

How to spell The Dropkick Murphys

?
 

Neo C.

Member
American friends, you make me nervous. :(

EU is still in a big crisis, hedgefunds are going for Italy now. And if this isn't bad enough, you can't get the budget deal sealed. FFFFUUUUUU
 

HylianTom

Banned
Neo C. said:
American friends, you make me nervous. :(

EU is still in a big crisis, hedgefunds are going for Italy now. And if this isn't bad enough, you can't get the budget deal sealed. FFFFUUUUUU

We're trying, but only one side of the table actually wants to negotiate.. it kinda holds things up.
 

Cyan

Banned
Chichikov said:
I knew it would.

But really, it's not about left vs. right.
It's about effective government for the people vs. corruption by special interests.

p.s.
Things eznark is wrong about -
  • Brent Favre
  • Congressional confirmation
  • The appropriate temperature for coffee
  • Public financing of stadiums.
  • The Dropkick Murphys
  • Sheila Bair
  • How to spell The Dropkick Murphys
  • The economy
  • Taxation
  • National security
  • Healthcare
  • Climate change
I'm adding "the need for public education on personal finance" to my list.
 

besada

Banned
mckmas8808 said:
What law and year was that? Never heard that before.

You'd probably never heard that the first insurance companies and even the first HMOs were nonprofit, either. Or that once upon a time, doctors weren't allowed to own the hospitals they worked in or the labs to which they send their unnecessary tests.

Start with the HMO Act of 1973, then trying looking up the history of health care in America, then apologize to Reilo for saying something so phenomenally stupid.
 

Loudninja

Member
Republicans Say They’ve Already Agreed To A Concession In Debt Fight: Raising The Debt Limit
"Most Americans would say that a balanced approach is a simple one: the administration gets its debt limit increase, and the American people get their spending cuts," Boehner said. The glaring problem with this interpretation is that Republican leaders have admitted that raising the debt ceiling is imperative -- not an arbitrary policy preference of the President's.

"I agree with the President we can not allow our nation to default on our debt," Boehner said at the same press conference
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...debt-fight-raising-the-debt-limit.php?ref=fpa

What?
 

Neo C.

Member
HylianTom said:
We're trying, but only one side of the table actually wants to negotiate.. it kinda holds things up.
Welp, if things got worse, at least I would have something to tell my grand-children: "And then, the world was fucked."
 

Evlar

Banned
Loudninja said:
Republicans Say They’ve Already Agreed To A Concession In Debt Fight: Raising The Debt Limit
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...debt-fight-raising-the-debt-limit.php?ref=fpa

What?
"The President stipulated that none of us should kill ourselves during these budget talks. We've agreed to this demand in principle. In exchange for staving off ritual suicide the President must agree to some of our demands, such as eliminating Social Security and outlawing abortion."
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
I come back from lunch and see that my work has been done for me already. I love you guys.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
besada said:
You'd probably never heard that the first insurance companies and even the first HMOs were nonprofit, either. Or that once upon a time, doctors weren't allowed to own the hospitals they worked in or the labs to which they send their unnecessary tests.

Start with the HMO Act of 1973, then trying looking up the history of health care in America, then apologize to Reilo for saying something so phenomenally stupid.


No I heard that more insurance companies were non-profit. What I didn't read or hear is that they were banned from making a profit. Hell I still don't see it.
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Hey guys!

Just here for a quick message, one of our resident lurkers, waiting for verification I believe, wanted an IRC to talk about politics with you guys but since he didn't have an account he couldn't ask if ya'll already had one or invite you to this one. Anyways, so he made one on Rizon, the address is here: irc://irc.rizon.net/poliGAF, currently he's got no mods and would like to make some of the regulars here mods and talk about that stuff so it can keep running. If you guys already have a place you hang out I guess let me know in the thread and I can tell him or he'll see it.

Edit: Obviously at this point it's totally unofficial and not really associated with Gaf in any way.
 

Kak.efes

Member
From an outsiders perspective, it'd seem to me that Obama caught them.

Republicans implored him to get involved after they walked out of the Biden negotiations, and when he did, proposing a bigger, more fully encompassing deal, they stonewall him, and revert back to the Biden negotiations as the only way to move forward.

They're full of shit, and their political agenda is so plainly discerned at this point.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Republicans Cite Reagan, Thatcher — Who Raised Taxes — In Anti-Tax Jihad (CHARTS)
Brian Beutler | July 11, 2011, 5:50AM



Reagan-Thatcher-cropped-proto-custom_2.jpg




It doesn't have a name, but it probably should: the axiom that when budgets and taxes and debt increasingly dominate politics in Washington, utterances of the words "Reagan" and "Thatcher" climb exponentially.

As detailed at length here, high-profile GOP presidential hopefuls constantly extol the former British Prime Minister. That's true whether it's to bash President Obama, or burnish their own conservative bona fides, or both.

And, of course, Ronald Reagan's decades-long reign as the Patron Saint of conservatism never really lets up, no matter what the issue du jour in DC.

But two days after Congressional Republicans took a pass on a $4 trillion fiscal reform grand bargain because Democrats insisted that a minority of the deficit reduction come from new tax revenue, it's worth reviewing the Thatcher and Reagan records on spending, taxes, and debt -- and recalling that the transatlantic Tory twins didn't mind spending money, and weren't nearly as averse to tax increases as are their idolators in the U.S. Congress today.

thatcher-tax-and-spend.jpg


Data courtesy of Bruce Bartlett, Reagan's former domestic policy chief.

It's fair to say that if Margaret Thatcher pursued her fiscal policies in the United States today, Sarah Palin wouldn't be angling for a meeting with her. During her reign, taxes rose, spending climbed and fell, and deficits shrunk fairly steadily, without dramatically undermining the welfare state. It's a record that's closer to Bill Clinton's than to Paul Ryan's.

Reagan's record looks more like a modern Republican's than like a new Democrat's, but by today's standards, he'd still basically be a RINO. The giant tax cut he signed at the outset of his presidency assured that, on net, over eight years, he actually reduced revenue. Spending declined as well, but, according to data compiled by The American Presidency Project, not enough to make up for the revenue loss.

reagan-tax-spend-1.jpg


But, as Bartlett details here, he also raised taxes -- over and over and over again.

reagan-taxes.jpg



#################

I wish the GOP could just be honest about Reagan's record and stop BSing it.
 
Gaborn said:
Actually Obama overwhelmingly won independents in '08 (to the point that would include conservative leaners). He's got an unfavorable rating from them now.
He said 'conservative leaning independents' . . . which is just a name for 'Republicans that are too embarrassed to admit they are Republicans because of the disaster known as George Bush'.
 

Averon

Member
mckmas8808 said:
I wish the GOP could just be honest about Reagan's record and stop BSing it.

The GOP spent an entire generation building up Reagan as this mythological Superman. They're so deeper in the rabbit hole (regarding his legacy) that they truly do believe what they sold.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
mAcOdIn said:
Hey guys!

Just here for a quick message, one of our resident lurkers, waiting for verification I believe, wanted an IRC to talk about politics with you guys but since he didn't have an account he couldn't ask if ya'll already had one or invite you to this one.
Word of note: said lurker will either have his registration denied or account permed on approval. I don't want him on the forum.
 

Jackson50

Member
Panetta is off to a superb start as SecDef. Although he later backtracked, he intimated that we are in Iraq because of al-Qa'ida; previously, he stated 70,000 troops would remain in Afghanistan through 2014. Of course, I am not as disconcerted by these silly mistakes as I am his strategic proclivities.
Loudninja said:
Republicans Say They’ve Already Agreed To A Concession In Debt Fight: Raising The Debt Limit
"Most Americans would say that a balanced approach is a simple one: the administration gets its debt limit increase, and the American people get their spending cuts," Boehner said. The glaring problem with this interpretation is that Republican leaders have admitted that raising the debt ceiling is imperative -- not an arbitrary policy preference of the President's.

"I agree with the President we can not allow our nation to default on our debt," Boehner said at the same press conference
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...debt-fight-raising-the-debt-limit.php?ref=fpa
Typical. Democrats are always unwilling to compromise.
 

Chichikov

Member
speculawyer said:
Best modern Republican president after George HW Bush.
You know, I think people are getting a bit carried away with their Nixon love these day.
True, from a policy perspective he was not the arch-conservative some people who get their history from All the President's Men made him out to be.
And yes, he did sign into law some progressive legislation (while vetoing others, like the Clean Water Act).

But for his attack on free speech and freedom of the press during The Pentagon Papers scandal alone he deserves to be tarred and feathered by history.

And yes, that's a bigger deal to me than singing the Clean Air Act.

I'll take Ike over him.
The Interstate system, ending the Korean war, desegregation, not trying to undermine the very foundation of our democracy.
You know, the usual stuff.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom