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[PantherLotus]

Agreed with Chichi. Nixon is the 2nd worst President of all time and should be despised for what he did to our country and his office.

 

[Chichikov]

Agreed with Chichi. Nixon is the 2nd worst President of all time and should be despised for what he did to our country and his office.

You should read Nixonland.
It's a very interesting book, and it makes a good case that Nixon is the father of the politics of resentment (i.e. exploiting people's hatred toward "the elites" or other groups in order to make them vote against their economic interests).

 

[TacticalFox88]

I think Eisenhower has to be the most underrated president of all time. He was a TRUE fiscal conservative and did what had to be done in order to balance the budget.

 

[besada]

Man, the gifts just keep coming.

Herman Cain's gospel album:
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/07/listen-herman-cains-gospel-album-drops.php?ref=fpb

 

[Cygnus X-1]

American friends, you make me nervous.

EU is still in a big crisis, hedgefunds are going for Italy now. And if this isn't bad enough, you can't get the budget deal sealed. FFFFUUUUUU

The unified currency is the problem you know. It is like a Straitjacket for the weaker countries, because it prevents them to devaluate the currency as it once was with the Lira. And without devaluation, it is almost impossible to sink the public debt without draconian measures that are very heavy for the society.

Further, the big problem of Italy is that it doesn't grow enough because of its poorly flexible economical web and bad ability of companies to compete at international level. Only good point is that most of the debt is "in house", i.e. within the same Italy, but this also means that banks are very exposed and since they do not follow Basel III's guidelines, they are poorly capitalized. Risk is thus high, especially if under attack of speculation.

In addition to that, the economical measure made by Giulio Tremonti are useless, because they will mostly effective only from 2013 onward, i.e. after the elections.

You know what? I think that big countries like Germany, France, Italy and Austria will sooner or later return to their own old currencies.

 

[Trurl]

Panetta is off to a superb start as SecDef. Although he later backtracked, he intimated that we are in Iraq because of al-Qa'ida; previously, he stated 70,000 troops would remain in Afghanistan through 2014. Of course, I am not as disconcerted by these silly mistakes as I am his strategic proclivities.
Typical. Democrats are always unwilling to compromise.

"Most Americans would say that a balanced approach is a simple one: the administration gets its debt limit increase, and the American people get their spending cuts," Boehner said. The glaring problem with this interpretation is that Republican leaders have admitted that raising the debt ceiling is imperative -- not an arbitrary policy preference of the President's.

"I agree with the President we can not allow our nation to default on our debt," Boehner said at the same press conference

That line annoys me so much that all I can do is read it in the opposite way that he intended.

 

[Incognito]

You should read Nixonland.
It's a very interesting book, and it makes a good case that Nixon is the father of the politics of resentment (i.e. exploiting people's hatred toward "the elites" or other groups in order to make them vote against their economic interests).

before you read that, though, make sure to read perlstein's 'prequel' to nixonland: before the storm

both books are an absolute must read to understanding the conservative movement. personally, i enjoyed 'before the storm' more than 'nixonland' although both are extremely good.

 

[PhoenixDark]

In his press conference on Monday morning, President Barack Obama repeatedly insisted that he was willing to tackle some sacred cows as part of a larger package to raise the debt ceiling. Just how sacred, however, may surprise political observers.

According to five separate sources with knowledge of negotiations -- including both Republicans and Democrats -- the president offered an increase in the eligibility age for Medicare, from 65 to 67, in exchange for Republican movement on increasing tax revenues.

The proposal, as discussed, would not go into effect immediately, but rather would be implemented down the road (likely in 2013). The age at which people would be eligible for Medicare benefits would be raised incrementally, not in one fell swoop.

Sources offered varied accounts regarding the seriousness with which the president had discussed raising the Medicare eligibility age. As the White House is fond of saying, nothing is agreed to until everything is agreed to. And with Republicans having turned down a "grand" deal on the debt ceiling -- which would have included $3 trillion in spending cuts, including entitlement reforms, in exchange for up to $1 trillion in revenues -- it is unclear whether the proposal remains alive.

"That is one of the things they put on the table as part of a big solution," said one senior Republican Hill aide.

"It was considered in the context of the big deal," added a top Democratic source briefed on the deliberations.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/11/obama-medicare-eligibility-age_n_894833.html

 

[eznark]

Agreed with Chichi. Nixon is the 2nd worst President of all time and should be despised for what he did to our country and his office.

Holy crap, we agree! FDR is your #1 worst of all time too, right?

Is it not Dropkick Murphy's?

 

[TacticalFox88]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/11/obama-medicare-eligibility-age_n_894833.html

I'm not sure how I'm supposed to feel about this. Granted, Republicans won't compromise on anything, but still...

 

[gcubed]

Holy crap, we agree! FDR is your #1 worst of all time too, right?

Is it not Dropkick Murphy's?

I like you, I may not agree with you but I like the cut of your jib

I figure the sense of humor comes with being a Brewers fan

 

[Kosmo]

Agreed with Chichi. Nixon is the 2nd worst President of all time and should be despised for what he did to our country and his office.

God damn EPA and Clean Air Act - c'mon, who's with me?

 

[Chichikov]

before you read that, though, make sure to read perlstein's 'prequel' to nixonland: before the storm

both books are an absolute must read to understanding the conservative movement. personally, i enjoyed 'before the storm' more than 'nixonland' although both are extremely good.

Looks very interesting, will check out, thanks.
It will be on my Kindle before I hit "submit".

Holy crap, we agree! FDR is your #1 worst of all time too, right?

You were rooting for Nazis, right?
Should I add "bet on the wrong horse in WWII" to my list?

Is it not Dropkick Murphy's?

Nope.
But as long as you hate them, I don't really care how you spell their name.

 

[Hitokage]

You know, I think people are getting a bit carried away with their Nixon love these days.

It says more about American governance in recent times than it does Nixon, I think. During Bush we looked back and got all misty-eyed for a time when even scumbags did policy.

 

[eznark]

You were rooting for Nazis, right?
Should I add "bet on the wrong horse in WWII" to my list?

Talk about quagmire, we're STILL in Germany. Father of the military industrial complex. No wonder you lefty commies love him!

 

[Baraka in the White House]

So how many days until Dems shit the bed and we get a "deal" that's 90% cuts?

 

[Admiral Bone to Pick]

Nixon opened trade relations with China (who we now have a massive trade deficit with) and put into place policies that greatly contributed to our modern obesity epidemic. He was also the beginning of the modern Neo-Conservative movement (abandoning actual fiscal conservatism for high spending and low taxes) and he kept us in Vietnam for a couple more years so that several thousand more Americans could die. He also started the "War on Drugs," which has led to the U.S. having the world's highest incarceration rate and horribly overcrowded prisons (while schools continue to face budget cuts).

In retrospect, he's the worst fucking president ever.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Nixon opened trade relations with China (who we now have a massive trade deficit with) and put into place policies that greatly contributed to our modern obesity epidemic. He was also the beginning of the modern Neo-Conservative movement (abandoning actual fiscal conservatism for high spending and low taxes) and he kept us in Vietnam for a couple more years so that several thousand more Americans could die. He also started the "War on Drugs," which has led to the U.S. having the world's highest incarceration rate and horribly overcrowded prisons (while schools continue to face budget cuts).

In retrospect, he's the worst fucking president ever.

But, he was not a crook

Spoiler

Don't forget that one

 

[TacticalFox88]

Nixon opened trade relations with China (who we now have a massive trade deficit with) and put into place policies that greatly contributed to our modern obesity epidemic. He was also the beginning of the modern Neo-Conservative movement (abandoning actual fiscal conservatism for high spending and low taxes) and he kept us in Vietnam for a couple more years so that several thousand more Americans could die. He also started the "War on Drugs," which has led to the U.S. having the world's highest incarceration rate and horribly overcrowded prisons (while schools continue to face budget cuts).

In retrospect, he's the worst fucking president ever.

At the time it was brilliant. NO ONE, thought China would be even CLOSE to where they are at the moment.

 

[Admiral Bone to Pick]

At the time it was brilliant. NO ONE, thought China would be even CLOSE to where they are at the moment.

Yeah. To be fair, China didn't really start to hit their stride 'til the 90s. I can't blame Nixon for a lot of the stuff he did at the time. But in retrospect, much of what he did had horrible implications down the line.

 

[state-of-the-art]

Unemployment among recently returned veterans, already in double digits, is poised to get worse as more soldiers return from Iraq and Afghanistan.

The jobless rate for veterans who served at any time since September 2001 — called Gulf War-era II veterans — was 13.3% in June, up from 12.1% the month before, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. In June 2010 it was 11.5%.

Unemployment among veterans could rise even more in upcoming months as more troops return from overseas. President Obama announced plans last month to pull 10,000 troops from Afghanistan by year's end and a total of 33,000 by September 2012. And the number of U.S. troops in Iraq is about 46,000 now, down from the peak of 166,000 in 2007. Most of the remaining troops will leave Iraq by year's end.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-veteranjobs-20110711,0,3234204.story

 

[PantherLotus]

This "FDR was the worst president in history" thing is a recent phenomena. A terrible one, too.

 

[FLEABttn]

and put into place policies that greatly contributed to our modern obesity epidemic.

Do what now?

 

[TacticalFox88]

This "FDR was the worst president in history" thing is a recent phenomena. A terrible one, too.

I'd LOVE to see the arguments for that one. You'd have to grasp at straws that are virtually non-existent.

 

[polyh3dron]

Republicans Say They’ve Already Agreed To A Concession In Debt Fight: Raising The Debt Limit
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...debt-fight-raising-the-debt-limit.php?ref=fpa

What?

oh boner you fucktard

 

[SolKane]

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-veteranjobs-20110711,0,3234204.story

The job fair featured dozens of booths where Sony, Target, Amazon and other companies gave out key chains, candy and pens, but many weren't accepting resumes from potential applicants.

The whole "support our troops" marketing goes right out the window when you realize the lack of support troops actually receive after their service. What the hell is the point of this charade?

 

[polyh3dron]

This "FDR was the worst president in history" thing is a recent phenomena. A terrible one, too.

yep, it basically originated along with the huge push to call basically the entire news media "the liberal media"

right wingers trying to rewrite history lol

 

[Admiral Bone to Pick]

Do what now?

Nixon's Secretary of Agriculture (Earl Butz) was the pioneer of America's modern farming (massive corn production, the rise of agribusiness and large farms, and the destruction of small farms). This man can pretty much be blamed for the abundance of corn in the American diet and much of the modern obesity epidemic.

He even said to farms "Get big or get out."

Further reading

The fact that Americans started gaining weight in massive numbers starting in the 70s is no coincidence.

 

[polyh3dron]

So how many days until Dems shit the bed and we get a "deal" that's 90% cuts?

I hope they make the GOP lie in the bed they've made. If they want to tank the economy, let them.

 

[state-of-the-art]

The whole "support our troops" marketing goes right out the window when you realize the lack of support troops actually receive after their service. What the hell is the point of this charade?

It's a cynical farce that I wish more people, especially veterans realized. Plenty of blame to go around though, both in and outside the military. They drum into our heads during service that our skills are in demand, that we're highly sought after by employers, but it's all just not true. All that while politicians pay lip service to patriotism and and supporting our troops as they contemplate gutting the GI bill and privatizing VA healthcare.

 

[Oblivion]

This "FDR was the worst president in history" thing is a recent phenomena. A terrible one, too.

What about Woodrow Wilson? He was the first one to implement the dreaded Pro-Stalin income tax.

Or maybe Teddy Roosevelt who actually came up with the idea?

 

[Clevinger]

The whole "support our troops" marketing goes right out the window when you realize the lack of support troops actually receive after their service. What the hell is the point of this charade?

The same point of people saying "You're a great American" to each other: it gives nationalistic morons a nice feeling.

 

[besada]

America has a long history of shitting on its troops. We've been doing it since the Revolution. Hiding what we've done to our young soldiers is as American as apple pie. Likely their best treatment came after WWII, and it still left a generation of burned out, tanked up, PTSD-fucked men.

Nearly every vet I know dealt with some level of PTSD, and loss of ability to understand the place they came home too. We've at least learned some of the dangers of training young men in killing, strategy, and tactics, and radically increased the amount of mental help available to young soldier, but it's still nowhere enough. Particularly for troops that come home to a wrecked economy and no jobs.

 

[speculawyer]

It says more about American governance in recent times than it does Nixon, I think. During Bush we looked back and got all misty-eyed for a time when even scumbags did policy.

This!

I'm not saying I love Nixon . . . but relative to George W. Bush, the guy was a god. EPA, Ended Vietnam, opened China, etc.

Yes, he was an scumbag that broke the rules . . . but at least he did some OK things.

 

[Rubenov]

The deal Obama wants will finish him politically:

1. Democrats/Democrat leaning independents and old people won't like the cuts to SS/Medicare
2. Conservative leaning independents won't like any of the "tax hikes"
3. True Independents won't like either...

I don't understand why with the 2 trillion in other spending cuts Democrats have already agreed to, add 1 trillion in new revenue = good deal. Stay the line.

Or there can be people that see him as a true middle-of-the-road politician.

There must be compromise for a true debt reduction deal to work, and that's exactly what Obama is trying to achieve. Unfortunately, what is good for the nation usually takes a backseat to politics.

 

[TacticalFox88]

This!

I'm not saying I love Nixon . . . but relative to George W. Bush, the guy was a god. EPA, Ended Vietnam, opened China, etc.

Yes, he was an scumbag that broke the rules . . . but at least he did some OK things.

I wonder how history will treat dubya.

 

[empty vessel]

Or there can be people that see him as a true middle-of-the-road politician.

There must be compromise for a true debt reduction deal to work, and that's exactly what Obama is trying to achieve. Unfortunately, what is good for the nation usually takes a backseat to politics.

That he is even trying to achieve debt reduction in this economy makes him anything but middle of the road. Debt reduction is terrible for the nation right now and will hurt millions of Americans. It shouldn't even be on the radar, let alone the president's primary obsession.

 

[speculawyer]

This is so amazing.

Amid ongoing negotiations with President Obama over raising the debt ceiling, House Republican leaders responded to Obama's call Monday for compromise by saying that their openness to raising the debt ceiling at all is sacrifice enough.

"A vote to increase the debt limit in this country is an existential question for a fiscal conservative," House Majority Leader Eric Cantor said Monday. "These votes aren't easy. ...What I don't think that the White House understands is how difficult it is for fiscal conservatives to say they're going to vote for a debt ceiling increase."

So how many times did Cantor vote to raise the debt limit under Bush?

At the beginning of the Bush presidency, the United States debt limit was $5.95 trillion. Despite promises that he would pay off the debt in 10 years, Bush increased the debt to $9.815 trillion by the end of his term, with plenty of help from the four Republicans currently holding Congressional leadership positions: Speaker John Boehner, House Majority Leader Eric Cantor, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, and Senate Minority Whip Jon Kyl. ThinkProgress compiled a breakdown of the five debt limit increases that took place during the Bush presidency and how the four Republican leaders voted:
June 2002: Congress approves a $450 billion increase, raising the debt limit to $6.4 trillion. McConnell, Boehner, and Cantor vote “yea”, Kyl votes “nay.”
May 2003: Congress approves a $900 billion increase, raising the debt limit to $7.384 trillion. All four approve.
November 2004: Congress approves an $800 billion increase, raising the debt limit to $8.1 trillion. All four approve.
March 2006: Congress approves a $781 billion increase, raising the debt limit to $8.965 trillion. All four approve.
September 2007: Congress approves an $850 billion increase, raising the debt limit to $9.815 trillion. All four approve.

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/04/14/158424/republican-leaders-debt-limit-hypocrisy/

Who the fuck can take such assholes seriously?

 

[Incognito]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-cantor-boehner-20110712,0,2176610.story

A long-simmering rivalry between the top two Republicans in the House has tumbled into the open, with far-reaching implications for deficit-reduction negotiations with the White House.

Speaker John A. Boehner (R-Ohio) and Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-Va.) are at odds over President Obama's call for a massive deficit-reduction package to address fiscal problems and provide for an increase in the country's $14.3-trillion borrowing limit before an Aug. 2 deadline.

In private talks with the White House, Boehner favored a large package as part of pragmatic political deal-making. But Cantor, speaking for staunch conservatives in Congress, is opposed.

In a briefing Monday, Cantor downplayed the divisions, insisting repeatedly that he and the speaker were "on the same page." But friction between the two has grown obvious, reinforcing months-old questions over who controls House Republicans.

"I don't think Boehner would want to serve in a foxhole anytime with Eric Cantor," said a Republican strategist and former leadership aide who asked not to be identified while commenting on an intraparty rivalry.

Obama praised Boehner in a nationally televised news conference Monday as he warned that a budget accord would only grow more difficult with time. "Do it now," Obama said. "Pull off the Band-Aid. Eat our peas."

But Cantor and the political right seem to be dictating the course of talks. Their pressure forced Boehner over the weekend to abandon his support for doing "something big" on the federal budget, and cast Cantor as the champion of the conservative flank.

:lol @ bolded. cantor has always been a little shit.

 

[Rubenov]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-cantor-boehner-20110712,0,2176610.story



:lol @ bolded. cantor has always been a little shit.

Seriously. I truly despise the guy.

 

[Incognito]

more cantor

http://swampland.time.com/2011/07/11/cantor-in-a-box/

When leaving the Biden talks, Cantor called on Boehner and President Barack Obama to get involved in the talks. “‘t is up to the President to come in and talk to the Speaker,” Cantor said on June 22. “The next phase is in the hands of those leaders, who need to determine the scope of an agreement that can tackle the problem and attract bipartisan support… For now, the talks are in abeyance as we await that guidance.”

But when that guidance came, Cantor didn’t like it. Boehner informed Cantor last Wednesday he planned to go big — really, really big — putting tax reform and entitlement reforms on the table for a deal worth upwards of $4.5 trillion in savings, a historic package. The next day, in a White House meeting with Obama and congressional leaders, Cantor came out against a grand bargain. Such large tax revenues could not pass the House, he said. Rumors swirled on Capitol Hill of dissent between Cantor and Boehner: Would the Senate have to go first, some wondered, to give Boehner the cover of GOP support and prevent a coup within the House conference? Two days later, Boehner dropped his support for the grand bargain. But, interestingly, in the two meetings since, Boehner has had little to say. He has left the talking to Cantor.

In the Monday White House meeting, Cantor proposed cuts to Medicare benefits, but nothing that might entice Democrats. Go learn the definition of “shared sacrifice,” Obama scoffed. He assigned Cantor homework: We are short of the $2.4 trillion goal that will get us past the 2012 elections, find some cuts that Republicans don’t particularly like to put on the table, we’ve already offered you a bunch of cuts Democrats don’t like. You must, Obama said, work to meet us in the middle.

Boehner hardly said a word in the meeting. His stance seems to be: if Cantor didn’t like the grand bargain, he’s welcome to negotiate one on his own. Republicans left the meeting noticeably subdued. Few had anything they wanted to say about it. And Cantor may have just jumped from the frying pan of Biden’s debt talks and into the fire of Obama’s. He has little experience hammering out legislative deals — particularly at this level. He wanted a smaller deal, and now Boehner’s sitting back and watching silently as Cantor flounders.

 

[WickedAngel]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-cantor-boehner-20110712,0,2176610.story



:lol @ bolded. cantor has always been a little shit.

He's not just an asshole; he's even got a sleazy look about him.

 

[BigSicily]

Republicans Say They’ve Already Agreed To A Concession In Debt Fight: Raising The Debt Limit
What?

Agreeing not to blow your brains out is a concession?

lol they are doubling down on the "we should DECREASE the debt limit!"

This just goes to show how politicized and removed, both conceptually and intellectually, from the actual debt issue most Americans really are. It's scary! Maybe, instead, the debate needs to be brought to them in different terms.


So, the '80s were awesome and gave us Bruckheimer, Tom Cruise playing beach volleyball without his shirt on and occasionally dog-fighting with things that looked nothing like the MiG's they were suppose to represent.... what's not to love, right?

But, there's a cool parallel. Maverick being the all American bad-ass he was, loved to push things and never respected that 10,000 foot hard-deck imposed for safety. Not a big deal, there's some room that you can lower it too for a bit to get that last minute shot off on Jester. "Hard deck my ass. We nailed that son of a bitch", right Tom?

The problem is eventually there really is an actual hard deck -- it's called the ground. You can't tweak the artificial limit forever, you push it just a little too much one time and you're face planting into the ground at 800mph. That's because the underlying problem is one of physics and dynamics, a moving body on the wrong trajectory.

The current debt talks around tweaking (raising) an artificial limit on National Debt (graphic a). Analogously, the real problem isn't one of the artificial debt ceiling which was imposed conceptually, just like a hard-deck, for safety and responsibility. The real problem is the underlying trajectory, which is coupled to structural spending problems that have become horrendously bad over the last two administrations (graphic b). The problem is raising the cap is a short-term solution, in a dangerous game where an increase in interest rates can lead toward a disruptive jump in borrowing costs that will put us right back at the brink. "That's right! Ice... man. I am dangerous."

The real problem: the guy setting the trajectory​

In a perfect world, with competent leadership, the most ideal solution would be to not raise the debt ceiling, but to correct the problem by matching outlays with revenue -- the precise methodology to do this: cuts to spending, tax structure, etc are orthogonal to what I'm saying. We'd see the US debt limit held static and the outstanding debt lowered, perhaps under a proposed plan to iteratively lower or cap the limit as well (graphic c). The economic benefit of this could be significant, Robert Rubin, Clinton's Treasury Secretary has claimed such stability to have been a key characteristic in the 1990s economy.

Yet, instead, this issue has been framed by those in DC as a game of ever increasing spending in which the only solution is to increase the debt limit. To even ponder doing the right thing, to correct the actual problem, is ridiculed by people like the above posters as stupid, silly, or unreasonable!! How very sad.

Eventually, there really is a hard limit on the US debt. And when we hit it, the ramifications will be much worse for many people and families than face planting into the ground at 800mph.

 

[Sirpopopop]

I'd LOVE to see the arguments for that one. You'd have to grasp at straws that are virtually non-existent.

It's the rather successful end-game of the Right's game plan to fully entrench their interests at the top. We're at the point where the word "compromise" might as well be "socialism."

Next up they'll be arguing that secession is legal.

 

[Sirpopopop]

If you were a Congressman Sicily, you wouldn't be the guy doing what you just proposed.

Otherwise, after casting your vote, you might as well down that cyanide pill, because things to get uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugly.

 

[Dude Abides]

This just goes to show how politicized and removed, both conceptually and intellectually, from the actual debt issue most Americans really are. It's scary! Maybe, instead, lets bring the debate to them.


So, the '80s were awesome and brought us Bruckheimer, Tom Cruise playing beach volleyball without his shirt on and occasionally dog-fighting with things that looked nothing like the MiG's they were suppose to represent.... what's not to love, right?

But, there's a cool parallel. Maverick being the all American bad-ass he was, loved to push things and never respected that 10,000 foot hard-deck imposed for safety. Not a big deal, there's some room that you can lower it too for a bit to get that last minute shot off on Jester. "Hard deck my ass. We nailed that son of a bitch", right Tom?

The problem is eventually there really is an actual hard deck -- it's called the ground. You can't tweak the artificial limit forever, you push it just a little too much one time and you're face planting into the ground at 800mph. That's because the underlying problem is one of physics and dynamics, a moving body on the wrong trajectory.

No, the hard limit is failing to pay interest and prinicipal on treasury bonds. There's nothing artificial about it. Bog-standard conservative starve the beast ideology is, indeed, not very germane to the issue, fun analogies notwithstanding.

 

[BigSicily]

If you were a Congressman Sicily, you wouldn't be the guy doing what you just proposed.

Otherwise, after casting your vote, you might as well down that cyanide pill, because things to get uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugly.

What, returning to spending levels (as percentage of GDP) that we had in 2008? The nation survived just fine then, just as we were in 2005, or 2000 or 1995 for that matter. As I've previously stated, Bill Clinton quite smartly oversaw the reduction and optimization in size of government. There is no reason given the advanced we've seen since, especially in information technologies, that we can't progress to an even more optimal region -- provided we have competent leadership, which we sadly do not.

This entire debate has been so twisted and framed in ridiculous contexts. The basic numbers don't lie: the expansion of the United States under the last two administrations, but under Obama especially, is unsustainable given our economic system as it's been structured since World War 2.

It's just that simple.

 

[Measley]

Go learn the definition of “shared sacrifice,” Obama scoffed.

I-I want to believe....

 

[Sirpopopop]

What, returning to spending levels (as percentage of GDP) that we had in 2008? The nation survived just fine then, just as we were in 2005, or 2000 or 1995 for that matter. As I've previously stated, Bill Clinton quite smartly oversaw the reduction and optimization in size of government. There is no reason given the advanced we've seen since, especially in information technologies, that we can't progress to an even more optimal region -- provided we have competent leadership, which we sadly do not.

This entire debate has been so twisted and framed in ridiculous contexts. The basic numbers don't lie: the expansion of the United States under the last two administrations, but under Obama especially, is unsustainable given our economic system as it's been structured since World War 2.

It's just that simple.

So you wouldn't raise the debt ceiling at all?

Your magic bullet plan has no shot of being put into action immediately. So... in the interim, we will finally see the confidence fairy put to work, working that is, to help investors pull out their money from the U.S. when they see that they can't trust our government to do the logical thing. Then of course, we'll see some truly massive bloodletting in the federal government. So much for government jobs being safe.

So at that point, we will be on the precipice of disaster, with just one tiny push to send us down the rabbit hole.

Yeah, I'm sure you don't want that to happen at all.

 

[BigSicily]

No, the hard limit is failing to pay interest and prinicipal on treasury bonds. There's nothing artificial about it. Bog-standard conservative starve the beast ideology is, indeed, not very germane to the issue, fun analogies notwithstanding.

I was trying to keep it simple, but sure, you're totally correct Dude Abides. The point was there is a 'simple' fix to the current problem (legislatively) to just alter the debt limit; there is a hard limit under that which is coupled to what traders will demand to buy US government debt when they finally -- and the exact time or reason for these things can not often be prestated -- realize the US's trajectory is untenable and they can't profit off their current strategies.

PS. Even the "Starve-the-Beast" argument is somewhat bullshit and ideological banter. I've recently heard the conservative parallel, that Obama's plan was to feed the beast with upfront and huge structural costs (ie. healthcare, welfare state expansion, etc) and then when the bill came in his late first, just push it off to Republican opponents and 2012 contenders to rubberstamp and tacitly approve by saying: either raise the debt or kill old people, etc. That is until the recent unemployment news of 2011. I find it an intellectually weak theory: basically stupid conservative rhetoric at best and morally disgusting if true.