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PoliGAF 2011: Of Weiners, Boehners, Santorum, and Teabags

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mckmas8808 said:
Republicans Cite Reagan, Thatcher — Who Raised Taxes — In Anti-Tax Jihad (CHARTS)
Brian Beutler | July 11, 2011, 5:50AM



Reagan-Thatcher-cropped-proto-custom_2.jpg




It doesn't have a name, but it probably should: the axiom that when budgets and taxes and debt increasingly dominate politics in Washington, utterances of the words "Reagan" and "Thatcher" climb exponentially.

As detailed at length here, high-profile GOP presidential hopefuls constantly extol the former British Prime Minister. That's true whether it's to bash President Obama, or burnish their own conservative bona fides, or both.

And, of course, Ronald Reagan's decades-long reign as the Patron Saint of conservatism never really lets up, no matter what the issue du jour in DC.

But two days after Congressional Republicans took a pass on a $4 trillion fiscal reform grand bargain because Democrats insisted that a minority of the deficit reduction come from new tax revenue, it's worth reviewing the Thatcher and Reagan records on spending, taxes, and debt -- and recalling that the transatlantic Tory twins didn't mind spending money, and weren't nearly as averse to tax increases as are their idolators in the U.S. Congress today.

thatcher-tax-and-spend.jpg


Data courtesy of Bruce Bartlett, Reagan's former domestic policy chief.

It's fair to say that if Margaret Thatcher pursued her fiscal policies in the United States today, Sarah Palin wouldn't be angling for a meeting with her. During her reign, taxes rose, spending climbed and fell, and deficits shrunk fairly steadily, without dramatically undermining the welfare state. It's a record that's closer to Bill Clinton's than to Paul Ryan's.

Reagan's record looks more like a modern Republican's than like a new Democrat's, but by today's standards, he'd still basically be a RINO. The giant tax cut he signed at the outset of his presidency assured that, on net, over eight years, he actually reduced revenue. Spending declined as well, but, according to data compiled by The American Presidency Project, not enough to make up for the revenue loss.

reagan-tax-spend-1.jpg


But, as Bartlett details here, he also raised taxes -- over and over and over again.

reagan-taxes.jpg



#################

I wish the GOP could just be honest about Reagan's record and stop BSing it.
Is the GOP creating history?
 

BigSicily

Banned
Sirpopopop said:
So you wouldn't raise the debt ceiling at all?

My point was a bit different: I wanted to show how badly warped the quoted points of view are, how horribly framed this whole business has become when the very idea of addressing the underlying problem is ridiculed in favor or what amounts to a political bandaid. No more, no less.

We're all playing with fire on this one and instead of recognizing it and being open to any and all views of the problem -- these people are still throwing cans of gasoline around like they're male models.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
BigSicily said:
I was trying to keep it simple, but sure, you're totally correct Dude Abides. The point was there is a 'simple' fix to the current problem (legislatively) to just alter the debt limit; there is a hard limit under that which is coupled to what traders will demand to buy US government debt when they finally -- and the exact time or reason for these things can not often be prestated -- realize the US's trajectory is untenable and they can't profit off their current strategies.

PS. Even the "Starve-the-Beast" argument is somewhat bullshit and ideological banter. I've recently heard the conservative parallel, that Obama's plan was to feed the beast with upfront and huge structural costs (ie. healthcare, welfare state expansion, etc) and then when the bill came in his late first or second term, just push it off to Republicans to rubberstamp and tacitly approve by saying: either raise the debt or kill old people, etc. I find stupid ideological conservative rhetoric at best and morally disgusting if true

There was no reason to insult and condescend to several posters for expressing a view on the actual issue at hand rather than the long-term ideological debate you'd like to have.
 
Clevinger said:
This shit is nothing. You guys should read up on Cantor's playing politics with Joplin's tornado aid.

Tornados you say?

How about floods?

GOP wants to shift high-speed rail money to flood relief

Congressional Republicans this week are side-tracking $1.5 billion in high-speed rail money that had been awarded to projects across the country.

In an adroit maneuver, GOP lawmakers propose shifting the high-speed rail dollars to Midwestern disaster relief. The ploy would help ease the federal budget deficit while underscoring Republican resistance to the Obama administration's rail plans.

"The flooding in the Midwest has been devastating," declared Rep. Rodney Frelinghuysen, R-N.J., adding that "we must be serious about controlling the deficit."

If Republicans in the House of Representatives succeed, California would lose $368 million, the Amtrak Northeast corridor would lose $795 million and a Midwestern high-speed rail corridor linking Chicago, Detroit and St. Louis would lose $404 million.

Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/07/11/2309865/gop-wants-to-shift-high-speed.html#ixzz1RrgpqPO1


I agree, Rodney, let the states fend for themselves. We're all about state rights right? Theres no way those honest red blooded americans want a federal handout. Let those who lost their homes find it in the free market.
 

Chichikov

Member
Oblivion said:
Yeah, this is the level we're having the debate about the future of this country.
And you know what?
It's not even about that fucking Gilligan Island photo.

What the fuck is he even talking about?
Some minor diss he think MSNBC dished him?
Is that what this country fucking paying you for?
Scoring points for the pundits?
 

GhaleonEB

Member
Chichikov said:
Yeah, this is the level we're having the debate about the future of this country.
And you know what?
It's not even about that fucking Gilligan Island photo.

What the fuck is he even talking about?
Some minor diss he think MSNBC dished him?
Is that what this country fucking paying you for?
Scoring points for the pundits?
Hatch is terrified of going the way of Bennett.
 

gcubed

Member
Sirpopopop said:
So you wouldn't raise the debt ceiling at all?

Your magic bullet plan has no shot of being put into action immediately. So... in the interim, we will finally see the confidence fairy put to work, working that is, to help investors pull out their money from the U.S. when they see that they can't trust our government to do the logical thing. Then of course, we'll see some truly massive bloodletting in the federal government. So much for government jobs being safe.

So at that point, we will be on the precipice of disaster, with just one tiny push to send us down the rabbit hole.

Yeah, I'm sure you don't want that to happen at all.

Sirpopopop already killed your bullshit so the need to reply is lower.

Edit.. I see your edit and it seems your original post, in your uncanny need to talk big a feel smart is framed just as poorly as the debate is
 
BigSicily said:
This just goes to show how politicized and removed, both conceptually and intellectually, from the actual debt issue most Americans really are. It's scary! Maybe, instead, the debate needs to be brought to them in different terms. ...

The current debt talks around tweaking (raising) an artificial limit on National Debt (graphic a). Analogously, the real problem isn't one of the artificial debt ceiling which was imposed conceptually, just like a hard-deck, for safety and responsibility. The real problem is the underlying trajectory, which is coupled to structural spending problems that have become horrendously bad over the last two administrations (graphic b). The problem is raising the cap is a short-term solution, in a dangerous game where an increase in interest rates can lead toward a disruptive jump in borrowing costs that will put us right back at the brink. "That's right! Ice... man. I am dangerous."

In a perfect world, with competent leadership, the most ideal solution would be to not raise the debt ceiling, but to correct the problem by matching outlays with revenue -- the precise methodology to do this: cuts to spending, tax structure, etc are orthogonal to what I'm saying. We'd see the US debt limit held static and the outstanding debt lowered, perhaps under a proposed plan to iteratively lower or cap the limit as well (graphic c). The economic benefit of this could be significant, Robert Rubin, Clinton's Treasury Secretary has claimed such stability to have been a key characteristic in the 1990s economy.

Yet, instead, this issue has been framed by those in DC as a game of ever increasing spending in which the only solution is to increase the debt limit. To even ponder doing the right thing, to correct the actual problem, is ridiculed by people like the above posters as stupid, silly, or unreasonable!! How very sad.

Eventually, there really is a hard limit on the US debt. And when we hit it, the ramifications will be much worse for many people and families than face planting into the ground at 800mph.

(1) Nobody cares about the debt. Seriously.

(2) We are nowhere near the "hard limit" (by which I assume you mean soft limit, since you are talking about a social phenomenon) on US debt. Plus, we have a big military.

(3) Nobody cares about the debt.
 

eznark

Banned
Primaries today in the WI recall campaigns. Hopefully there is (relatively) huge turnout so that this thing stays interesting.
 

eznark

Banned
gcubed said:
but im bored already. we need another choking

I haven't heard shit on that story since it broke. Which is too bad. I was hoping it would get huge so we could have one of those hilarious Hong Kong animated reenactments.

Sadly I think the next big story out of Wisconsin will not be related to politics. Up north a kid has been charged with reckless homicide in the death of an unborn baby. Do those stories still generate national attention?
 

besada

Banned
eznark said:
Sadly I think the next big story out of Wisconsin will not be related to politics. Up north a kid has been charged with reckless homicide in the death of an unborn baby. Do those stories still generate national attention?

Depends on how slow the news day is.
 

Measley

Junior Member
PhoenixDark said:
I may not like Boehner or his politics, but I continue to get the sense that he's an old school, deal making politician. He'll compromise when he has to, especially when the biggest deal of his political career comes along. Cantor strikes me as a dumber Gingrich, waiting in the wings to stab him in the back.

Supposedly some in the tea party want to try to primary him because he's actually doing his job as Speaker.
 

eznark

Banned
Measley said:
Supposedly some in the tea party want to try to primary him because he's actually doing his job as Speaker.

I like how some people are acting like the threat of backing a more hard line candidate in a primary is some new tactic.
 

gcubed

Member
eznark said:
I like how some people are acting like the threat of backing a more hard line candidate in a primary is some new tactic.

depends how hard line you think the first one is. In Boehners case, not very
 

Measley

Junior Member
eznark said:
I like how some people are acting like the threat of backing a more hard line candidate in a primary is some new tactic.

Where did I say it was a new tactic? I just think its hilarious that Boehner has that threat looming over his head because he's actually serious about governing the country.
 

eznark

Banned
Measley said:
Where did I say it was a new tactic? I just think its hilarious that Boehner has that threat looming over his head because he's actually serious about governing the country.

Where did I say you did? Just quoting you because it was on topic.
 

besada

Banned
It still cracks me up that so many people were worried about Huntsman:
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/07/is-huntsmania-over-already.php?ref=fpb

But it would be hard to tell from the polls, in which Huntsman consistently scores at only 1%-2% in the key early states. And what's more, some numbers are now coming down the pike that will show him doing badly even in Utah, where he was elected governor in 2004 and 2008.

"Here's a guy who had his lips firmly planted on the president's butt three months ago, and now is speaking ill out of 'em out of those same lips. Can you trust a guy who turns this quickly? He is somebody who apparently will say whatever it takes to get elected," Harpootlian said. "Huntsman, not only is he disingenuous, he's disloyal. So I must admit I have a bit more vitriol for him than I might the other candidates. Is that too subtle?"

Then, quietly, he added: "I don't think the DNC's going to ask me to do these anymore."

The Utah numbers really don't surprise me. He cut his throat with the Mormons before he came out by distancing himself from the faith. Stick a fork in him.

On the Bachmann front we have a gay husband who cures gay people with prayer, and the revelations that Bachmann's husband pocketed $130,000 in medicaid funds at his gay-curing clinic.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...arcus-bachmanns-gay-curing-clinic.php?ref=fpb
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4357055..._2012/t/bachmanns-husband-got-medicaid-funds/
 

Baraka in the White House

2-Terms of Kombat
PhoenixDark said:
I may not like Boehner or his politics, but I continue to get the sense that he's an old school, deal making politician. He'll compromise when he has to, especially when the biggest deal of his political career comes along. Cantor strikes me as a dumber Gingrich, waiting in the wings to stab him in the back.

Cantor wants Boehner's job and clout within the Republican party so badly it's ridiculous. He's like all the worst caricatures of modern neoconservatism rolled into one person.
 

besada

Banned
Invisible_Insane said:
I don't care what the facts are, I want to believe. Just let me have this, ok?

I guess someone might want to pick him up as VP, so long as it's not Romney. He'd do a good job of helping one of the crazier fuckers seem a little more moderate. Perry/Huntsman?

Jason's Ultimatum said:
Gotta hand it to Reagan when it came to raising taxes. At least he was a realist and knew the deficit was getting out of hand.

Democrats should start mentioning Reagan and his willingness to raise taxes when it was needed. Use the holy name against them.
 

eznark

Banned
besada said:
I guess someone might want to pick him up as VP, so long as it's not Romney. He'd do a good job of helping one of the crazier fuckers seem a little more moderate. Perry/Huntsman?

He lends some foreign policy cred to the mostly domestic politician field.

Palin/Huntsman, they've seen Russian AND China!
 
besada said:
I guess someone might want to pick him up as VP, so long as it's not Romney. He'd do a good job of helping one of the crazier fuckers seem a little more moderate. Perry/Huntsman?
Perhaps. I did legitimately think the general distaste for Romney would drive someone less crazy than Bachmann to the fore, but it doesn't look like it's going to happen right now. I'd be being dishonest if I said I hadn't dreamed of a Huntsman/Gates ticket.

Alas.
 
besada said:
On the Bachmann front we have a gay husband who cures gay people with prayer, and the revelations that Bachmann's husband pocketed $130,000 in medicaid funds at his gay-curing clinic.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...arcus-bachmanns-gay-curing-clinic.php?ref=fpb
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4357055..._2012/t/bachmanns-husband-got-medicaid-funds/

I've seen some people on twitter suggest that, including a couple gay bloggers. Seems like a petty, ridiculous attack based on stereotypes. The guy clearly has a lisp, that doesn't make him gay
 

eznark

Banned
PhoenixDark said:
I've seen some people on twitter suggest that, including a couple gay bloggers. Seems like a petty, ridiculous attack based on stereotypes. The guy clearly has a lisp, that doesn't make him gay

It's Hil all over again!?!
 

HylianTom

Banned
PhoenixDark said:
I've seen some people on twitter suggest that, including a couple gay bloggers. Seems like a petty, ridiculous attack based on stereotypes. The guy clearly has a lisp, that doesn't make him gay

True. True, I suppose.

Now back to the funny..

Gay Dating Site Offers Marcus Bachmann Free Lifetime Membership
http://wonkette.com/449221/gay-dating-site-offers-marcus-bachmann-free-lifetime-membership

“In light of Marcus Bachmann’s spike in popularity on gay and gay-friendly blogs across the U.S., internet dating megasite Gaydar.net is offering the the husband of Tea Party presidential candidate Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.) a complimentary lifetime membership,” reports Gaydar, on its blog.

“As a rep at Gaydar HQ explains, ‘Marcus Bachmann is popping up on everyone else’s gaydar, we figure he might want to be on the real Gaydar! With over six million members, we like to think Gaydar is the picture of inclusivity — from swarthy barbarians to piggy politicos — all are welcome!’”
 

Chichikov

Member
Jason's Ultimatum said:
Gotta hand it to Reagan when it came to raising taxes. At least he was a realist and knew the deficit was getting out of hand.
No you don't.
What matters is the tax rate.
Increases or decreases in the taxes (cuts! hikes!) is just a way to get to the right tax rate.

And the fact is, during Reagan's administration, taxation was too low to fund the government spending of the time and as a result, this country ran a massive debt.

I'm not saying this was all Reagan's fault, he was the president after all, but I hate it that the totally of our taxation discussion is about relative localized changes, taken out of the context of our tax code and tax rates.

I understand why idiots like Norquist want to frame the discussion that way - it help them drive taxation down and starve the beast.
But progressives should not accept that narrative.
 

besada

Banned
PhoenixDark said:
I've seen some people on twitter suggest that, including a couple gay bloggers. Seems like a petty, ridiculous attack based on stereotypes. The guy clearly has a lisp, that doesn't make him gay

Meet you back here in a couple of years when he gets outed.

Chichikov said:
I'm not saying this was all Reagan's fault, he was the president after all, but I hate it that the totally of our taxation discussion is about relative localized changes, taken out of the context of our tax code and tax rates.

And if I remember correctly, the tax increases he signed didn't make up for the tax cuts he signed when he came into office.
 

besada

Banned
Jason's Ultimatum said:
Revenue never increased when he raised taxes?

I'm saying that over his eight years, he's still a tax-cutter, rather than a tax-raiser. He started with an enormous cut and then filled some of it back in. But he hadn't made up for the original cut by the time he left office. I think he got it back up to half of what he cut, because immediately following the cuts the economy went into an ugly tailspin.

The problem with painting Reagan as a guy who raised taxes, is it's only half true.

According to a table in Reagan’s last budget (FY 1990), the cumulative legislated tax increase during his administration came to $132.7 billion as of 1988 ($367 billion today). This compared to a gross tax cut of $275.1 billion. Thus Reagan took back about half the 1981 tax cut with subsequent tax increases.
http://capitalgainsandgames.com/blog/bruce-bartlett/2154/reagans-forgotten-tax-record
 
As much of a good idea it would be, to use Reagan's holy name against the Republicans, I'm going to invoke the ideological veto here.

I'd rather see Dems try and restore FDR's name. Oh, and the Warren Court. Also: Brown v. Board of Education.
 

Evlar

Banned
besada said:
I'm saying that over his eight years, he's still a tax-cutter, rather than a tax-raiser. He started with an enormous cut and then filled some of it back in. But he hadn't made up for the original cut by the time he left office. I think he got it back up to half of what he cut, because immediately following the cuts the economy went into an ugly tailspin.

The problem with painting Reagan as a guy who raised taxes, is it's only half true.
It's only a palliative for the modern Republican insanity of no revenue increases, ever ever ever. Even if today's Republicans wrote a tax cut and unintentionally left in an extra zero (oops! $10 trillion cut? We only intended $1 trillion!) they would be forbidden by their dogma to correct it because taxes can never go up. Not to correct a mistake, or adjust to changing economic circumstances, or stave off default; not even if it's a small upward tick overshadowed by previous massive cuts as in Reagan: never never never.
 
Well, no shit he's more of a tax cutter than a tax raiser. Nobody is debating that. All I said was he knew the deficit was getting out of hand, and he had to raise taxes. The direct impact on defict didn't make up for the tax cuts before he left office, as you've said.

EDIT-I wonder if the tax increases hurt the middleclass/poor than the rich? I know Reagan raised payroll taxes.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Is Cantor adding up the money correctly?
David Kurtz | July 12, 2011, 10:12AM


Eric-Cantor-2011-9-cropped-proto-custom_6.jpg




Give me a minute to sketch out for you the current state of negotiations on raising the debt ceiling, courtesy of Sen. Dick Durbin (D-IL), who spoke yesterday with our Brian Beutler. It's worth your while.

Republicans are insisting that any deal must include spending cuts equal to the additional borrowing authority they grant in raising the debt ceiling. How much is that in dollars? Well, it depends on how much you raise the debt limit.

President Obama wants to raise the debt ceiling enough to give the federal government breathing room into 2013, that way he doesn't have to face this issue again before the 2012 election. When you do the math, or more precisely when the budget wizards do the math, it turns out you need about a little more than $2 trillion increase in the debt ceiling to last until 2013. So that's how much in spending cuts Republicans are demanding: a bit north of $2 trillion.

With me so far? Good, because here's the rich, hair-pulling, you-got-to-be-kidding-me part:

When the parties sat down yesterday at the White House for another round of hashing out a deal, Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-VA) laid out the spending cuts House Republicans hammered out in earlier failed talks with Vice President Joe Biden aimed at a grand bargain on the long-term budget. Now set aside that there's an open question as to whether Democrats ever did or ever would agree to those cuts Cantor laid out. And set aside that the deal Cantor is proposing doesn't offer any compromise to Democrats on the tax side (it's still spending cuts only).

Set all that aside and guess what?

Cantor's own numbers don't add up to $2 trillion!

Let me say that again.

Cantor was unable to put on the negotiating table a list of $2 trillion in spending cuts Republicans would propose that have any chance of passing.

That about sums up where we are at this stage of this ridiculous Kabuki theater
. Republicans are taking the country to the brink of default demanding spending cuts that will signify their commitment to fiscal responsibility, smaller government and austerity -- but for reasons that are political in the macro and micro sense, they can't come up with a list of cuts that actually gets the job done. It's not that they can't do the math. Believe me.

So the question today for House Republicans and everyone else involved in these so-called negotiations -- the questions our reporters will be asking -- is why can't they come up with $2 trillion in spending cuts. And if they can, show them to us


###################

I don't know when or how this ends, but what I do know is that this whole debt ceiling talk is stupid as hell. It seems like people in DC are just talking pass each other. Ugh...
 

Dartastic

Member
I'm really not liking this assassination of Karzai's brother. I wonder where this will lead the discussion of the Afghan war; I really hope that it doesn't lead to a call to maintain our current presence there. The amount of money we're spending over there is ludicrous.
 

Loudninja

Member
Ron Paul won't seek congressional term in 2012
LAKE JACKSON — After serving almost 24 years in the U.S. House of Representatives, Congressman Ron Paul told The Facts this morning he will not be seeking another term for the District 14 seat.

Paul, 75, will instead focus on his quest for the presidency in 2012.

“I felt it was better that I concentrate on one election,” Paul said. “It’s about that time when I should change tactics.”
http://thefacts.com/article_1c9785ea-ac9d-11e0-b2df-001cc4c03286.html

REVEALED: Cantor’s Secret Memo For $350bn In Cuts
Though the memo lacks key details about many of the cuts, it contains enough to show where, exactly, Republicans hope to achieve savings. Its largest single source of savings -- $100 billion worth -- comes from what the memo terms "Medicaid FMAP Reform," or matching funds to state governments for providing Medicaid services.

It calls for up to $53 billion in savings from instituting new cost-sharing protocols for so-called Medigap policies -- supplemental insurance sold to Medicare beneficiaries to cover the cost of services not covered, or partially covered by Medicare. Specifically, it would institute a $530 out-of-pocket premium for certain Medigap plans. It also calls for over $80 billion in additional cost-shifting for home health coverage, and for medical and prescription drug coverage.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...-in-medicaremedicaid-cuts-savings.php?ref=fpa
 

Chichikov

Member
Sirpopopop said:
As much of a good idea it would be, to use Reagan's holy name against the Republicans, I'm going to invoke the ideological veto here.

I'd rather see Dems try and restore FDR's name. Oh, and the Warren Court. Also: Brown v. Board of Education.
Co-signed.

But the Democrats have been running away from their achievements since the 80s.
 
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