PoliGAF 2012 Community Thread |OT2| This thread title is now under military control

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And did people talk about his ten houses afterward? I guess Palin being so bad made it a moot point.
True but the damage had already been done. I think the same applies here. Romney cannot talk about his business record without reminding voters of Bain

You're right on Palin though, she changed the narration from one negative thing to another negative thing: herself. I doubt Romney will pick anyone of note, ie a Rice or Rubio or Ayotte. It'll be Portman, who will open the Bush pandora box, or Pawlenty who has flip flopped nearly as much as Romney
 

Kosmo

Banned
That was a rather nice spin into Fast and Furious.

He will likely continue to hammer this home. He hasn't even brought out something to the effect of "Look, I have released recent tax returns and will be releasing my 2011 when it's available. I think the question we should be asking is why the President is more interested in my tax returns than he is in a border agent bring gunned down with guns his administration allowed to walk across the border."


In this post, you attack Democratic Congressman John Dingell for introducing universal health care legislation "53 years in a row," implying he's wasting the people's time and money. In doing so, comparing it to the whole House voting on universal health care legislation or repealing such legislation (as a response to Tim-E's post).

The purpose of the latest vote, the first after the SC ruling, was political - purely to get Democrats on record as supporting the "biggest tax hike in American history" to use in ads in the fall. Don't think it was worthless when it comes to campaigning. I don't think any Republican thought it would get to the Senate and get signed off on by Obama. It's no different than attaching stupid names to bill like the "Child Health Act" (or whatever, I made that up) and stuffing the bill full of wasteful shit, but then it get run in ads as "Republican X voted AGAINST the child health act. How can you be against healthy children???"
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Has the Romney campaign made any decisions yet that were NOT "fucking terrible?"

Hmm. Raising a lot of cash was a pretty good decision.

But seriously, everything we're seeing is a complete bi-product of two concurrent forces: the waning but still serious force of the tea-party, and the fact that Romney is just a terrible candidate with an impossible record to run on at this exact moment (lower taxes for the rich, healthcare for all, easing immigration rhetoric, outsourcing...).

We're all becoming an echo chamber, I know, but it cannot be overstated how right Rick Santorum was:

Pick any other Republican in the country. He is the worst Republican in the country to put up against Barack Obama.
 
I want to say Paul Ryan. For one, he will energize the base. He comes from a potential swing state. The conservatives also don't care about his plan and want to run on a true right wing platform. They are true believers. But I don't know if he would accept.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
True but the damage had already been done. I think the same applies here. Romney cannot talk about his business record without reminding voters of Bain

You're right on Palin though, she changed the narration from one negative thing to another negative thing: herself. I doubt Romney will pick anyone of note, ie a Rice or Rubio or Ayotte. It'll be Portman, who will open the Bush pandora box, or Pawlenty who has flip flopped nearly as much as Romney

Correct. So game theory here for a moment:

Either -

a) Romney picks a boring VP candidate --> makes no waves --> Bain doesn't go away.

or

b) Romney picks an exciting, game-changing, bomb-throwing VP candidate --> Sarah Palin


Ok cool, pretty sure Romney's got this in the bag.
 

kehs

Banned
He will likely continue to hammer this home. He hasn't even brought out something to the effect of "Look, I have released recent tax returns and will be releasing my 2011 when it's available. I think the question we should be asking is why the President is more interested in my tax returns than he is in a border agent bring gunned down with guns his administration allowed to walk across the border."

You should probably watch that clip.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
Wow... what a horrible ad. I couldn't help but smile the whole freaking time. That clip just does that to me. It's just a nice, humanizing, charismatic display, and it shows through in the ad, since you can still hear the cheers of the crowd. Showing his shit-eating grin at the end was also a mistake, I think. Really, just a terrible ad for trying to hit Obama back... It's like they were just thinking "Oh, we need to copy that ad... quick, find Obama singing. I know there was that one clip! Use that!"

I don't think it was terrible, per se, it wasn't as bad as Obama's ad showing Mitt Romney tearing him down, now THAT one was terrible, but it wasn't the America the Beautiful ad, that one was pretty much perfect.
 
The purpose of the latest vote, the first after the SC ruling, was political - purely to get Democrats on record as supporting the "biggest tax hike in American history" to use in ads in the fall. Don't think it was worthless when it comes to campaigning. I don't think any Republican thought it would get to the Senate and get signed off on by Obama. It's no different than attaching stupid names to bill like the "Child Health Act" (or whatever, I made that up) and stuffing the bill full of wasteful shit, but then it get run in ads as "Republican X voted AGAINST the child health act. How can you be against healthy children???"
I don't feel like getting into what's wrong with what you just wrote, but you further prove here that your original response to Tim-E's post didn't make a lick of sense.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Beautiful analysis by Ezra Klein here:

1. Anyone expecting a major swing in the polls from these attacks is likely to be disappointed. Remember that most voters who haven’t already made up their minds mostly aren’t paying attention, and voters who live in swing states and haven’t made up their minds have already seen hundreds of ads on this topic and it hasn’t been enough to push them off the fence.

2. The Romney campaign’s preferred defense is that after 1999, he was “sole stockholder, CEO, chairman, and president of Bain Capital” in name only, and therefore not responsible for any of the decisions made. I suspect this narrative will, in the long-run, prove worse for Romney than the narrative it’s trying to defend against. More on this later.

3. That Romney wasn’t better prepared for the attacks on Bain and the questions over his taxes is one of the great mysteries of this campaign. An example: In 2008, Romney turned more than 20 years of his tax returns over to the McCain team in order to be vetted for the vice presidency. So he clearly realized that tax returns could matter for political campaigns. And yet he didn’t call his accountants in 2008 and say “make my taxes simple. Now.” Why?

4. What isn’t a mystery is why he isn’t releasing more of his tax returns now. As John Cassidy writes, “It’s only fair to assume that Mitt is doing what he always does: acting on the basis of a careful cost-benefit analysis. [George] Will’s comments on this were spot on: ‘The cost of not releasing the returns are clear,’ he said. ‘Therefore, [Romney] must have calculated that there are higher costs in releasing them.’”

5. This is one of the most devastating attack ads I’ve ever seen: (VIDEO)

6. You’ve probably heard the bit of cynical political wisdom that holds: “if you’re explaining, you’re losing.” A corollary could be: “if you’re asking for an apology, you’re getting killed.” The Romney campaign is now demanding an apology from the Obama campaign. But even if you believe Obama’s ad is misleading, the campaign that did this can’t complain about misleading attack ads. That’s one reason they shouldn’t have done that.

7. The best-world version of Mitt Romney is running a campaign that embraces creative destruction and outsourcing and buyouts and all the rest of it because these things help our economy become more dynamic. That’s where his business experience at Bain might actually help him understand the economy — he has seen the costs of firm-level sclerosis and stagnation firsthand. Think something along the lines of this essay by Reihan Salam. The problem is that the candidate running that campaign needs to have a real answer for the workers who are hurt by that dynamism. Part of that answer would need to be a larger safety net — something akin to Denmark’s “flexicurity” system. But the modern GOP won’t permit Romney to run a campaign that embraces a larger safety net. And so he can’t embrace his own economic experience without appearing cruel.

8. The irony is that the candidate who could have squared this circle is…Mitt Romney. He would have been perfect, in fact. As the former CEO of Bain Capital, he would have been credible on the economic argument in a way most politicians simply aren’t. As the first governor to successfully pass and implement a universal health care program in the United States, he would have been credible on the safety net in a way most Republicans simply aren’t. But rather than merging Bain and Massachusetts into one campaign, he’s running from both.

Not putting it an quote box so it's easier to read.
 

teiresias

Member
And did people talk about his ten houses afterward? I guess Palin being so bad made it a moot point.

My memory may be failing me, but the ten houses story want getting nearly the push from the Obama campaign as Bain is either. Neither had McCain built his entire reason for electability around his skills in the real estate market, so there was less motive to keep the pressure up on that line of attack. Bain is central to Romney's argument for his own election so I doubt it will be allowed to just die.
 
Hmm. Raising a lot of cash was a pretty good decision.

But seriously, everything we're seeing is a complete bi-product of two concurrent forces: the waning but still serious force of the tea-party, and the fact that Romney is just a terrible candidate with an impossible record to run on at this exact moment (lower taxes for the rich, healthcare for all, easing immigration rhetoric, outsourcing...).

We're all becoming an echo chamber, I know, but it cannot be overstated how right Rick Santorum was:

I dunno if I'd call raising lots of money a political decision. It's more of an inevitability, and citizens united has a lot to do with all that fundraising.

But totally agree on Romney as a bad candidate. There is zero enthusiasm from any conservatives for him, and his one argument for the job, his ceo experience at Bain, is exploding in his face right now.

Debates are going to be amazingly
 

gcubed

Member
picking a VP mid July in the middle of the mess he got himself into smacks of panic.

Also, I would think that doing it in mid july when he is getting attacked makes me think it would be someone who would change the discussion. Tim Pawlenty wouldn't change the discussion.
 

KingGondo

Banned
I was quite surprised to learn last night that my father, who is NOT a fan of Obama, will not be voting for Romney. The last couple weeks have really hammered home just how out-of-touch Romney is.

It will take a miracle for Mitt to manufacture any real enthusiasm from his "base" before the election.

He has jack shit to run on now that health care has been upheld and now that his business acumen is being eviscerated by O's camp. Can't run on national security or immigration either.

I tend to agree with those that think the GOP is conceding this election and already gearing up for 2016.
 

RDreamer

Member
I don't think it was terrible, per se, it wasn't as bad as Obama's ad showing Mitt Romney tearing him down, now THAT one was terrible, but it wasn't the America the Beautiful ad, that one was pretty much perfect.

I thought this one was slightly worse than the Obama ad showing Mitt tearing him down. I get the premise of that ad, but I thought it could have been done and edited much, much better. At least half of the tear downs in Obama's ad did make Romney look pretty stupid, I thought. The problem was the other half shouldn't have been there. This ad, though, I think highlights way, way too much the president's charisma. And I also think it's worse because it feels like such a blatant copy. As I said, it's like they were saying to themselves they have to do Obama singing, too, because that's what was in his ad. So they grabbed that without regard to why the singing in Obama's ad worked at all.
 
picking a VP mid July in the middle of the mess he got himself into smacks of panic.

Also, I would think that doing it in mid july when he is getting attacked makes me think it would be someone who would change the discussion. Tim Pawlenty wouldn't change the discussion.

That ultra transparent Condi Rice trial balloon was the clear panic indicator, I think
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
8. The irony is that the candidate who could have squared this circle is…Mitt Romney. He would have been perfect, in fact. As the former CEO of Bain Capital, he would have been credible on the economic argument in a way most politicians simply aren’t. As the first governor to successfully pass and implement a universal health care program in the United States, he would have been credible on the safety net in a way most Republicans simply aren’t. But rather than merging Bain and Massachusetts into one campaign, he’s running from both. [/INDENT]

Not putting it an quote box so it's easier to read.

While the rest of the analysis, the part I quoted is somewhat invalidated by the fact that who Romney had to convince in the primary were the hardcore right wing nutters who wanted nothing to do with Romney's record for healthcare. He had to pander like no one has pandered before, and now it is impossible for him to have pivoted back and retain any level of support with his base, the one that could possibly (however unimaginable it is to me right now) get him elected. Even in 2008 while he was running he ran on the fact that he had instituted UHC in MA, now he refuses to bring it up, unless it is to explain away why he justified it at the time.

He is a victim of a terrible base and poor self-values.
 
I was quite surprised to learn last night that my father, who is NOT a fan of Obama, will not be voting for Romney. The last couple weeks have really hammered home just how out-of-touch Romney is.

It will take a miracle for Mitt to manufacture any real enthusiasm from his "base" before the election.

He has jack shit to run on now that health care has been upheld and now that his business acumen is being eviscerated by O's camp. Can't run on national security or immigration either.

I tend to agree with those that think the GOP is conceding this election and already gearing up for 2016.

Is he voting for Obama now?
 

GhaleonEB

Member

Klein in correct in all instances (though in one post he says voters won't be swayed, then calls the new ad "devastating"), but this was particularly good point:

6. You’ve probably heard the bit of cynical political wisdom that holds: “if you’re explaining, you’re losing.” A corollary could be: “if you’re asking for an apology, you’re getting killed.” The Romney campaign is now demanding an apology from the Obama campaign. But even if you believe Obama’s ad is misleading, the campaign that did this can’t complain about misleading attack ads. That’s one reason they shouldn’t have done that.​
 

Tim-E

Member
picking a VP mid July in the middle of the mess he got himself into smacks of panic.

Also, I would think that doing it in mid july when he is getting attacked makes me think it would be someone who would change the discussion. Tim Pawlenty wouldn't change the discussion.


Remember the last time Republicans picked a VP that changed the discussion? My brain tells me that there is no way they would do something so high risk again, but Romney's campaign so far has made Mondale's campaign look like a masterstroke of political brillaince.
 

KingGondo

Banned
Is he voting for Obama now?
No, but it's not like it matters anyway since we live in Oklahoma. Obama didn't win a single county here even in 2008. :(

I'm determined to find out where his intense distaste for Obama comes from. I'm fairly convinced that he's absorbed it by osmosis, working among right-wingers at an oil and gas company.

The perception here is that Obama is hugely anti-oil--between Keystone XL, wanting to eliminate tax subsidies for oil companies, and pushing alternative energy, the companies have everything they need to push that narrative. (I disagree, for the record--and I also work in the industry.)
 
What makes you say that?

Team of Rivals, Tea Party favorite, social issues darling, game changer, etc.

Remember, GOP doesn't need immigrant and minority votes to win. They simply need to convince enough white voters in crucial swing states like North Carolina and Ohio. Whereas Democrats absolutely need minority votes in order to win.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
While the rest of the analysis, the part I quoted is somewhat invalidated by the fact that who Romney had to convince in the primary were the hardcore right wing nutters who wanted nothing to do with Romney's record for healthcare. He had to pander like no one has pandered before, and now it is impossible for him to have pivoted back and retain any level of support with his base, the one that could possibly (however unimaginable it is to me right now) get him elected. Even in 2008 while he was running he ran on the fact that he had instituted UHC in MA, now he refuses to bring it up, unless it is to explain away why he justified it at the time.

He is a victim of a terrible base and poor self-values.

Good points.

I think those are assumed by Ezra here, and he was outlining how Romney might've been the one candidate the GOP could turn to to elucidate the otherwise indigestible concept of zero taxes for the wealthy while also destroying safety nets for the lower and middle class. His record on healthcare was his "if we don't care about poor people, then..."

It's just a shame, because in another reality, he's a Republican I could live with. Though I thought GWB was one as well. (lol)
 

Tim-E

Member
Team of Rivals, Tea Party favorite, social issues darling, game changer, etc.

Remember, GOP doesn't need immigrant and minority votes to win. They simply need to convince enough white voters in crucial swing states like North Carolina and Ohio. Whereas Democrats absolutely need minority votes in order to win.

I think it became clear by the end of the primary that Santorum hated Mitt Romney with everything in him. I don't think he'd accept an offer to be his VP.
 

Allard

Member
Remember the last time Republicans picked a VP that changed the discussion? My brain tells me that there is no way they would do something so high risk again, but Romney's campaign so far has made Mondale's campaign look like a masterstroke of political brillaince.

At this point there really isn't a safe or risky candidate, the whole election even without the VP has become a circus. Romney is in a precarious position where he can't even differentiate himself by picking a unique candidate to shore up a specific base, he has lurched left to right so many times he is everyone and he is no one at this point lol. What he needs for a VP choice actually is a personality choice, someone with clear convictions even if those convictions are terrible. Which to me thinks his overall 'best' candidate might actually be Santorum. He has his own horrific negatives but the one thing no one could claim about him was as a panderer or lacking convictions. For hilarity sake one of the Paul's might be another good pick XD.
 
I think Romney just might pick Santorum for VP :O

Not in a million years. Santorum is insane, and toxic to most regular Americans. Considering Romney is smart, he certainly realizes Santorum would do more harm than good regardless of whether the pick energizes the tea party.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
Good points.

I think those are assumed by Ezra here, and he was outlining how Romney might've been the one candidate the GOP could turn to to elucidate the otherwise indigestible concept of zero taxes for the wealthy while also destroying safety nets for the lower and middle class. His record on healthcare was his "if we don't care about poor people, then..."

It's just a shame, because in another reality, he's a Republican I could live with. Though I thought GWB was one as well. (lol)

It seems like at one point, he might have been a decent person and leader, but he is being possessed by the ring and has been so for a LONG time.
 

Clevinger

Member
picking a VP mid July in the middle of the mess he got himself into smacks of panic.

Also, I would think that doing it in mid july when he is getting attacked makes me think it would be someone who would change the discussion. Tim Pawlenty wouldn't change the discussion.

Anyone would change the subject for a little while. The media will get a new shiny toy to talk about.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
Okay, so you admit you have no idea, and in turn, somewhat admitting that your original assertion was not comparable to what Tim-E posted. Then you move your goalposts.

Your original post:

In this post, you attack Democratic Congressman John Dingell for introducing universal health care legislation "53 years in a row," implying he's wasting the people's time and money. In doing so, comparing it to the whole House voting on universal health care legislation or repealing such legislation (as a response to Tim-E's post).


In this post, you attack the Democrats for not voting on the legislation as a whole House! You just attacked a Democratic congressman for introducing it too many times! You responded to a post saying it's a waste of time to bring up legislation so many times when it doesn't hope to pass! WHAT ARE YOU DOING

...

Oh, I have a headache.


Welcome to Kosmo
 

Kosmo

Banned
Welcome to Kosmo

Unfortunately, he has it wrong:

Dax01 said:
In this post, you attack the Democrats for not voting on the legislation as a whole House! You just attacked a Democratic congressman for introducing it too many times! You responded to a post saying it's a waste of time to bring up legislation so many times when it doesn't hope to pass! WHAT ARE YOU DOING

I did not attack Dingell - he is free to bring up whatever legislation he wants. Dax01 implied that the House voting 33 times to repeal PPACA, without any hope of really going anywhere, was a waste of time, which is why I asked what he would consider Dingell bringing up the same issue 53 years in a row? At no point did I say it was a waste of time, but that seems to be what Dax was implying, if repeatedly bringing up something that goes no where is a waste of time.
 

Allard

Member
Unfortunately, he has it wrong:



I did not attack Dingell - he is free to bring up whatever legislation he wants. Dax01 implied that the House voting 33 times to repeal PPACA, without any hope of really going anywhere, was a waste of time, which is why I asked what he would consider Dingell bringing up the same issue 53 years in a row? At no point did I say it was a waste of time, but that seems to be what Dax was implying, if repeatedly bringing up something that goes no where is a waste of time.

He only brought it up one time a year and was a single individual. A PARTY platform bringing it up as often as they do a year while getting no discernible other legislation done is worthy of mocking.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Well I was thinking someone a little more traditional but off the radar:

John Ashcroft, Tom Ridge, Colin Powell (lol?), Robert Gates.
 
Beautiful analysis by Ezra Klein here:

1. Anyone expecting a major swing in the polls from these attacks is likely to be disappointed. Remember that most voters who haven’t already made up their minds mostly aren’t paying attention, and voters who live in swing states and haven’t made up their minds have already seen hundreds of ads on this topic and it hasn’t been enough to push them off the fence.

2. The Romney campaign’s preferred defense is that after 1999, he was “sole stockholder, CEO, chairman, and president of Bain Capital” in name only, and therefore not responsible for any of the decisions made. I suspect this narrative will, in the long-run, prove worse for Romney than the narrative it’s trying to defend against. More on this later.

3. That Romney wasn’t better prepared for the attacks on Bain and the questions over his taxes is one of the great mysteries of this campaign. An example: In 2008, Romney turned more than 20 years of his tax returns over to the McCain team in order to be vetted for the vice presidency. So he clearly realized that tax returns could matter for political campaigns. And yet he didn’t call his accountants in 2008 and say “make my taxes simple. Now.” Why?

4. What isn’t a mystery is why he isn’t releasing more of his tax returns now. As John Cassidy writes, “It’s only fair to assume that Mitt is doing what he always does: acting on the basis of a careful cost-benefit analysis. [George] Will’s comments on this were spot on: ‘The cost of not releasing the returns are clear,’ he said. ‘Therefore, [Romney] must have calculated that there are higher costs in releasing them.’”

5. This is one of the most devastating attack ads I’ve ever seen: (VIDEO)

6. You’ve probably heard the bit of cynical political wisdom that holds: “if you’re explaining, you’re losing.” A corollary could be: “if you’re asking for an apology, you’re getting killed.” The Romney campaign is now demanding an apology from the Obama campaign. But even if you believe Obama’s ad is misleading, the campaign that did this can’t complain about misleading attack ads. That’s one reason they shouldn’t have done that.

7. The best-world version of Mitt Romney is running a campaign that embraces creative destruction and outsourcing and buyouts and all the rest of it because these things help our economy become more dynamic. That’s where his business experience at Bain might actually help him understand the economy — he has seen the costs of firm-level sclerosis and stagnation firsthand. Think something along the lines of this essay by Reihan Salam. The problem is that the candidate running that campaign needs to have a real answer for the workers who are hurt by that dynamism. Part of that answer would need to be a larger safety net — something akin to Denmark’s “flexicurity” system. But the modern GOP won’t permit Romney to run a campaign that embraces a larger safety net. And so he can’t embrace his own economic experience without appearing cruel.

8. The irony is that the candidate who could have squared this circle is…Mitt Romney. He would have been perfect, in fact. As the former CEO of Bain Capital, he would have been credible on the economic argument in a way most politicians simply aren’t. As the first governor to successfully pass and implement a universal health care program in the United States, he would have been credible on the safety net in a way most Republicans simply aren’t. But rather than merging Bain and Massachusetts into one campaign, he’s running from both.

Not putting it an quote box so it's easier to read.

Yep, well articulated points.

I don't however agree that these ads won't have an effect on the electorate. It's some of the most piercing political character-assassination I've seen. Sure it's full of half-truths, but it's rocked the narrative.

As for the VP nom, what's the word on Condi? I don't know how that would fair for the Romney campaign. She's an easy target for her associations, but she's an astute and terrifyingly strong political player. I could imagine her making Biden look like a fool.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
7. The best-world version of Mitt Romney is running a campaign that embraces creative destruction and outsourcing and buyouts and all the rest of it because these things help our economy become more dynamic. That’s where his business experience at Bain might actually help him understand the economy — he has seen the costs of firm-level sclerosis and stagnation firsthand. Think something along the lines of this essay by Reihan Salam. The problem is that the candidate running that campaign needs to have a real answer for the workers who are hurt by that dynamism. Part of that answer would need to be a larger safety net — something akin to Denmark’s “flexicurity” system. But the modern GOP won’t permit Romney to run a campaign that embraces a larger safety net. And so he can’t embrace his own economic experience without appearing cruel.
Bingo.
 
Who cares? She's a black woman. She'll get all the votes!

George Will said if she was the nominee, she'd be challenged on the convention floor, delegates would walk out, etc; I think he's right. She's a single black woman who's pro choice - is there anything worse than that to a conservative?
 
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