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PoliGAF 2012 Community Thread |OT2| This thread title is now under military control

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ToxicAdam

Member
We don't allow people to go without car insurance. Ive gone 10 years without causing an accident or getting a ticket yet I'm forced to get it. That is something I can control by driving safely. Medical insurance can be the same way except when you take the gamble and lose you just push the costs back onto taxpayers and everyone else through higher prices. Why should we be paying for other peoples gambles?

This is a fallacy.

If I break a leg and I am uninsured (with a job), it has no effect on you or the "taxpayers". I get the bill, I might set up a small loan, then pay it off. This happens all the time with dental work amoung young adults.

With a vehicle, you have the potential to cause significant property damage to other people's belongings. This is even more likely the younger you are. Which is why you pay higher premiums at that age.



Just because its half the average for older adults doesn't make 20% any less significant.

No, it's half the average of ALL working-age adults. Young included. So, the numbers of older people carrying medical debt is likely even higher.

It's just yet another illustration of how infrequently young adults need serious medical attention.
 
This is a fallacy.

If I break a leg and I am uninsured (with a job), it has no effect on you or the "taxpayers".

And if you get cancer? Or any other number of complicated diseases that causes you to lose your job and run up tens of thousands of dollars of medical expenses that you cannot pay for?

It's gambling, and putting the risk on others. Sheer irresponsibility.
 

Jackson50

Member
But the US government gave Iraq WMDs prior to the Iraq war.
But that ignores the context of the question. While the U.S. provided Iraq with biological agents and facilitated the development of its nuclear program in the 80s, those had been largely abandoned after 1991. Iraq was not pursuing WMDs as was purported.
 
The more we fund space research the quicker everyone will be able to have their own private island/planet.

The rest of us will live in society and try to share our burdens.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Just gonna drop this right here...

imagesizer

As much as I bag on cons for being uniformed, this actually surprises me. Yes, it was 10 years ago, and yes, the media at large was complicit -- not just right wing nonsense on FOX. But this should've been readily apparent when the Bush admin started thinking of all the other reasons we should invade (namely, spreading democracy and containing Al Qaeda).

That liberals suspected otherwise is more of a credit to their general disbelief of everything associated with Bush. I suspect the converse was true for Republicans.

I'm glad that history turned out how it did.
 

Gambling. Explain to me again why I should bear the risk of other people's gambles? Just because the odds aren't bad? What kind of argument is that? You're saying I can behave negligently and should expect not to have to pay for any damages I cause so long as 9 times out of 10 that I act negligently, nothing bad happens. That defense would never hold up in a negligence suit.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
Gambling. Explain to me again why I should bear the risk of other people's gambles? Just because the odds aren't bad? What kind of argument is that? You're saying I can behave negligently and should expect not to have to pay for any damages I cause so long as 9 times out of 10 that I act negligently, nothing bad happens. That defense would never hold up in a negligence suit.

Should we base all of our life decisions on what could happen to us less than 1 percent of the time?

Why would we ever own a car? Or stay out after 10pm? Or raw dog that hot barrista that needs it right now in the storage closet?
 

Chumly

Member
This is a fallacy.

If I break a leg and I am uninsured (with a job), it has no effect on you or the "taxpayers". I get the bill, I might set up a small loan, then pay it off. This happens all the time with dental work amoung young adults.

With a vehicle, you have the potential to cause significant property damage to other people's belongings. This is even more likely the younger you are. Which is why you pay higher premiums at that age.
Your seriously comparing dental work to medical bills? Dental work is laughable smaller compared to medical expenses. Who do you think pays the bills when people don't pay off their medical bills? Do the doctors take a pay cut? No the price has already been factored into their expenses causing everyone else higher medical bills.


No, it's half the average of ALL working-age adults. Young included. So, the numbers of older people carrying medical debt is likely even higher.

It's just yet another illustration of how infrequently young adults need serious medical attention.
So your just going to brush it off because older people also have problems with medical debt? A lot would consider 20% to be a big number.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Should we base all of our life decisions on what could happen to us less than 1 percent of the time?

Why would we ever own a car? Or stay out after 10pm? Or raw dog that hot barrista that needs it right now in the storage closet?

What on earth is this? You can't be serious. He's talking about societal costs of poor decisions, you're conflating that with some seriously unserious bullshit.
 

Chumly

Member
Should we base all of our life decisions on what could happen to us less than 1 percent of the time?

Why would we ever own a car? Or stay out after 10pm? Or raw dog that hot barrista that needs it right now in the storage closet?

I'm only expected to have a car accident every 18 years.......... That would be pathetically low odds by your standards. Might as well "take the risk"
 

ToxicAdam

Member
Your seriously comparing dental work to medical bills? Dental work is laughable smaller compared to medical expenses.

The cost of breaking a bone is comparable to getting crowns or having all your wisdom teeth removed.

Who do you think pays the bills when people don't pay off their medical bills?

This isn't an issue about people not paying. The topic is about responsible people with jobs and who do not want black marks on their credit report paying off medical bills.

So your just going to brush it off because older people also have problems with medical debt? A lot would consider 20% to be a big number.

No, the original issue was that young adults going without medical insurance is a SMALL gamble. I have shown in multiple ways and cited many different sources that this is true.


While 20% is a significant number, it is important to recognize that 75% of that debt is less than 4,000 dollars.

The amount of medical debt was often substantial. One-quarter of young adults who were paying off medical debt owed $4,000 or more, and 15 percent reported $8,000 or more in debt. Among those with a gap in coverage during the year who were paying off debt, 31 percent had $4,000 or more of medical debt, 21 percent had $8,000 or more, and 11 percent had $10,000 or more.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120608100753.htm

He's talking about societal costs of poor decisions, you're conflating that with some seriously unserious bullshit.

A "poor decision" is one that ignores statistical likelihood of something happening. Foregoing health insurance (and saving 2400 dollars a year in the process) as a young man does not fall into this category.
 
Should we base all of our life decisions on what could happen to us less than 1 percent of the time?

First, you are talking about cancer exclusively, when the discussion was never limited to that. Data has already been posted reflecting a substantial number of young people with medical debt.

Second, this sounds like an argument for repealing drunk driving laws to me.

The reality is that there is not one single good reason for not insuring every single person through one giant insurance program. What freedom do you think you are protecting? Even the successful gamblers lose, because even if they only break a leg, they are still paying at least double than necessary for treatment (and probably much more, if they are uninsured, because insurance companies have bargaining power to leverage which leaves the uninsured bearing the highest costs). So the freedom you are advocating for is the freedom to be billed higher medical costs than is necessary? There is not a single benefit to any living person in this system you envision.

Why would we ever own a car? Or stay out after 10pm? Or raw dog that hot barrista that needs it right now in the storage closet?

We have to have insurance to drive a car. Staying out after ten does not foreseeably or predictably impose costs on another person (unless you are driving a car accident without insurance!). We know that people will contract diseases or have other health problems. It is imminently predictable. So it is something we can, as a society, plan how to deal with in the most efficient way possible. It's only rational that we do so.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
A "poor decision" is one that ignores statistical likelihood of something happening. Foregoing health insurance (and saving 2400 dollars a year in the process) as a young man does not fall into this category.

Measuring societal cost isn't based on what is likely to happen, but what might happen. Why do you keep suggesting that one buys insurance based on probability? One buys insurance because the cost of catastrophe, even at a hit rate of 1%, is greater than the cost of insurance.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
If that's the flimsy rationale for mandating insurance, then we should mandate fire, life, mortgage and flood insurance.

No, and weak.

  • If your house burns down, you're paying taxes for the firetruck, for the wasted water, and all the shit you lose.
  • If your house floods, you pay the damages, not me.
  • If you default on your mortgage, that's the lender's loss, not mine (unless I'm an investor in the firm).
  • If you die and don't leave shit to your kids, that's their loss -- not mine.

You go to the ER because your selfish ass wants to save a couple hundred bucks and you're on a respirator, clinging to life, your wife won't let them unplug you (he doesn't have life insurance what are we going to do?!), guess who pays? Tax payers.

Of all the things every conservative should get behind, it would be to stop paying for poor people's (and dumb/selfish/young-republican's) ER care. There's a few ways we can do that, I think -- price controls, elimination of insurance companies, single payer, and mandates. Let me know if you come up with something that hasn't already been thought of, but we're seriously debating extremely well-tread ground here.

Wherever this nonsense you've been spewing is coming from, it's not from an educated, logical, or conservative view. I don't get it.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
You go to the ER because your selfish ass wants to save a couple hundred bucks and you're on a respirator, clinging to life, your wife won't let them unplug you (he doesn't have life insurance what are we going to do?!), guess who pays? Tax payers.

You described an anecdotal scenario that is statistically irrelevant in a nation of 300 million people. If you can provide some kind of substantial proof that this is a significant occurrence, then I would be glad to see it.

--- // --

Also, the tax payers aren't paying anything. The government creates money so it can just pay off the ramifications of my poor life decisions and not even skip a beat.


Hey, this MMT is a terrific tool. I can't wait to use it ALL the time now. I'm a believer now.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
It's common knowledge at this point that 20% of ER visits are uninsured and paid for with tax dollars.

Regardless, it's obvious you don't want a serious debate. I knew you weren't serious to begin with (when you were conflating risking catastrophic injury to banging the barista), but why not try to debate honestly?

Nevermind, TA. This conversation is embarrassing.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
It's common knowledge at this point that 20% of ER visits are uninsured and paid for with tax dollars.

Regardless, it's obvious you don't want a serious debate. I knew you weren't serious to begin with (when you were conflating risking catastrophic injury to banging the barista), but why not try to debate honestly?

Nevermind, TA. This conversation is embarrassing.


Embarrassing that you have to constantly reduce yourself to insults when conversing with people? I agree. Best quit while you are behind.


Maybe you can wake up tomorrow and have new anecdotals and hypotheticals to dazzle me with.

xoxo
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Sidenote: you need to look up the difference between "anecdotal" and "plausible example."

You're throwing out the former an awful lot and it doesn't seem like you know the basic definition, and it's a poor excuse to brush away a serious topic.
 
Also, the tax payers aren't paying anything. The government creates money so it can just pay off the ramifications of my poor life decisions and not even skip a beat.

Hey, this MMT is a terrific tool. I can't wait to use it ALL the time now. I'm a believer now.

You are correct with respect to money reimbursed by the federal government, but some of that money simply gets redistributed to other buyers in the form of higher prices. As well, that the government can pay for it without costing taxpayers money does not mean that there is no real cost to the citizen. The government's expenditures of money on corporate hospitals (at inflated prices) leaves less fiscal space to do other things (of course, we have so much fiscal space right now that it's fucking ridiculous, but the point nevertheless remains true). Even under a proper understanding of the monetary system, everything has a cost. It's just that MMT looks at real costs.
 

leroidys

Member
Sure, I said the majority though I think. Either way it's here nor there. Not like it would change my or your mind one way of the other.



Once people start being denied care they will.

It's not a health care issue, it's a role of society/government issue. That's why I don't tend to post on the topic. It's not political, not really.

Are people usually denied care before or after they go to the doctor? Hmmmm
 
OK, so only 0.1134% of people in their late 20's get cancer per year. Of course, that means you have a 0.5657% cumulative chance of cancer throughout those five years.

That's a 1 in 176 chance that a person will be diagnosed with cancer sometime between the age of 25 and 29.

There's about 21 million people that age in the U.S. right now, so about 120K of them will get cancer. What is your policy on these 120,000 people?
 

Chumly

Member
You described an anecdotal scenario that is statistically irrelevant in a nation of 300 million people. If you can provide some kind of substantial proof that this is a significant occurrence, then I would be glad to see it.

--- // --

Also, the tax payers aren't paying anything. The government creates money so it can just pay off the ramifications of my poor life decisions and not even skip a beat.


Hey, this MMT is a terrific tool. I can't wait to use it ALL the time now. I'm a believer now.

LINK - LINK

Government spent 34 billion in 2004 dollars for uncompensated care. With an additional 6-8 billion coming from the private sector. How is this not statistically relevant? Who do you think pays for that?
 

ToxicAdam

Member
OK, so only 0.1134% of people in their late 20's get cancer per year. Of course, that means you have a 0.5657% cumulative chance of cancer throughout those five years.

That's a 1 in 176 chance that a person will be diagnosed with cancer sometime between the age of 25 and 29.

There's about 21 million people that age in the U.S. right now, so about 120K of them will get cancer. What is your policy on these 120,000 people?


I don't agree with your math. CDC has a tool you can use that is much better.

http://wonder.cdc.gov/cancernpcr-v2009.html

The incidents over a 10 year span, was 48,000 cases among 107 million people.

---

There are HIPs out there that do not have pre-existing condition exclusion periods nor medical screenings. You can also get on a spouses health plan if you are married or move back home if you are under 27 under HCR.

Government spent 34 billion in 2004 dollars for uncompensated care. With an additional 6-8 billion coming from the private sector. How is this not statistically relevant? Who do you think pays for that?

This is an irrelevent stat as we are talking about a very specific subset of Americans that may have need of catastrophic care.
 
ToxicAdam said:
No one has said that people should not be insured. No one said that accidents don't happen to people. In fact, I believe that single payer is the only solution to our problems, but that doesn't seem politically viable.

I'm confused. TA clearly stated he is for a Single Payer style system, but if that system is not around he is advocating for people in their 20s to have the right to game the system since only 1 in 5 would make use of insurance?

Why be in favor of Single Payer overall but if we can't get it then say fuck it and let them do what they want? I don't get this jump? Is it being pissed off at the mandate toward private companies?
 
If that's the flimsy rationale for mandating insurance, then we should mandate fire, life, mortgage and flood insurance.
It's not a flimsy rationale. It's a pretty solid justification. Everyone, at one point or another, will require healthcare service. Unless they are robots. Males and females both require preventative care. Each and every one of us needs to go to dentist twice a year at the very least, but none of us do, which leads to expensive dental treatments later on.

As a matter of fact, the mandate for insuring cars is flimsy when we are playing probability games. At least when driving cars, I can be super extra careful (been driving for 12 years, no accidents) and have a good control over my car's safety on the road. Whereas my health is concerned, I have minimal control over my health condition (been to ER twice). I can try to eat healthy and stay fit, but I have zero control over whether I get a brain aneurysm, stroke or cancer.
 

Kosmo

Banned
Interesting perspective on Obama's stance that he can simply not enforce the deportation of illegals:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...PltV_story.html?wprss=rss_charles-krauthammer

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/303038/executive-overreach-john-yoo#

Imagine: A Republican president submits to Congress a bill abolishing the capital gains tax. Congress rejects it. The president then orders the IRS to stop collecting capital gains taxes and declares that anyone refusing to pay them will suffer no fine, no penalty, no sanction whatsoever. (Analogy first suggested by law professor John Yoo.)

Thoughts on how, legally, this would differ from what Obama is doing with immigration?
 

ToxicAdam

Member
I'm confused. TA clearly stated he is for a Single Payer style system, but if that system is not around he is advocating for people in their 20s to have the right to game the system since only 1 in 5 would make use of insurance?

Why be in favor of Single Payer overall but if we can't get it then say fuck it and let them do what they want? I don't get this jump? Is it being pissed off at the mandate toward private companies?

You can favor a single payer system as being superior to the current one and still be against forcing young people to get bent over in the shitty one we have now.

As a matter of fact, the mandate for insuring cars is flimsy when we are playing probability games. At least when driving cars, I can be super extra careful (been driving for 12 years, no accidents) and have a good control over my car's safety on the road. Whereas my health is concerned, I have minimal control over my health condition (been to ER twice). I can try to eat healthy and stay fit, but I have zero control over whether I get a brain aneurysm, stroke or cancer.

You don't have control over other drivers. Doesn't matter how defensive you are.
 

Chumly

Member
You can favor a single payer system as being superior to the current one and still be against forcing young people to get bent over in the shitty one we have now.
I Agree that single payer is vastly superior but I don't understand your rational because young people would be getting bent over by "taxes" for a single payer which is the same as having to pay insurance premiums.

So what's the difference between someone paying 2-3 grand in insurance premiums verses paying that in taxes for single payer for a young adult
 

ToxicAdam

Member
I Agree that single payer is vastly superior but I don't understand your rational because young people would be getting bent over by "taxes" for a single payer which is the same as having to pay insurance premiums.

I only favor single payer because it would drive down overall costs. The upcoming mandate is just forcing more people to eat the shit sandwich.

MASSPIRG_average_household_expenses.jpg
 
Oil prices could hit $2.50 by November
Energy analyst Philip Verleger told Bloomberg TV that U.S. drivers could see $2.50-a-gallon gas prices by November, the Boston Business Journal reports.

The cause is two-fold, he said: The price of oil has fallen sharply recently due to overproduction in Saudi Arabia, and falling demand due to Europe’s economic slowdown is also a factor.
Thank you based Newt

1331627169_Newt%20Gingrich%20Mark%20Wallheiser%20Getty%20Images.jpg
 
I don't agree with your math. CDC has a tool you can use that is much better.

http://wonder.cdc.gov/cancernpcr-v2009.html

The incidents over a 10 year span, was 48,000 cases among 107 million people.
Well, my math was better than your query, at least. That site says 113,159 reported cases for ages 25-29 in America, not 48,000.

Also note those statistics don't include Connecticut, Hawaii, Iowa, New Mexico, and Utah. And remember, that's reported cases in America (- 5 states), not actual cases. No insurance means no cancer screening. We got a lot of that.
 

codhand

Member
In the style of the esteemed PantherLotus, allow me to suggest that you find a Utopia Thread to go post in.

tumblr_kx5pncYRaW1qztjn5o1_500.png


you appear to hold that conjuring up instances or young people with outsize medical bills should cause us to reflect differently on actuarial truths about the cost of insuring that cohort.

Yes. Although I'm not quite sure how to conjure young people.

Conjour-
Make (something) appear unexpectedly or seemingly from nowhere as if by magic.

Righght, I drove home and the bill was sitting on the living room table, pure, unexpected, magic.

Your reaction reminds me of the reaction of many women's groups to the announcement that most women were getting too many mammograms, or men's groups to the comparable announcement about prostate

OK, first, um what? Second, what was the reaction of women's groups to being told they get too many mammograms? That they didn't want old, white, men in Washington telling them what to do? I don't honestly follow that particular current event, but I can at least understand why women might be upset at being told not to do something preventative, even if it is statistically fruitless. And third I don't recall "Men's Group's" forming up around this subject, I feel like you mentioned it to not sound sexist.

My prior post wasn't a "reaction" it was a statement of my thoughts. I fail to see how my musings about 30 year old's often having high medical bills relates to women's reactions to reduced preventative care for breast cancer.



I only favor single payer because it would drive down overall costs. The upcoming mandate is just forcing more people to eat the shit sandwich.

Ahh common ground, it's nice isn't it? The only thing is, Obamacare, even if it is the worst things people say about it, is still good for one reason; it finally sets us on a (long) road to single-payer health care. For that spark alone, I can never be too mad.
 
Well Obama sure is lucky that gas prices are going to go down from now until November.

I thought the president can't influence gas prices? If true than he is very lucky.
 
Obama Has Big Lead Among Latinos in Swing States

A new Latino Decisions poll shows President Obama way ahead of Mitt Romney among Latino voters in the key swing states of Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Nevada and Virginia.

"In Florida, the poll found Obama leading Romney by a margin of 53% to 37%, a slight increase from a 50% to 40% lead Obama held over Romney in a January 2012 Latino Decisions/Univision News poll in Florida. In the five states combined Obama lead Romney 63% to 27%, however in southwestern battlegrounds of Arizona, Colorado and Nevada Obama performed even better. In Arizona Obama received 74% to 18% for Romney, in Colorado he was favored by 70% to 22% and in Nevada 69% to 20%. In Virginia, Obama lead 59% to 28% over Romney among Latino registered voters."

Alex Burns notes Obama "won the Latino vote by 36 points nationally in 2008, which is the same margin he leads Romney overall across these five swing states."
http://politicalwire.com/archives/2012/06/22/obama_has_big_lead_among_latinos_in_swing_states.html
 
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