• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

PoliGAF 2012 Community Thread |OT2| This thread title is now under military control

Status
Not open for further replies.
Continuing on my own post from earlier, I'm often surprised by how little discussion there is about the Republican Brain Drain. It is a real phenomenon that few here seemed to have been interested exploring outside broad, sweeping comments about how stupid Republicans are, and so forth.

Here is an article from David Frum's website in the 2010 election cycle that does some pretty deep analysis.

The article notes that Republicans still do above average with college educated people in general, but that the trends become alarming when you begin to segregate "college" in any great degree; the better the schools get, the increasingly likely they are to be liberal. Further, it provides evidence that this was not always the case; as recently as Eisenhowever, Ivy League colleges were majoratively Republican. A relevant quotation:

Yeah, David Frum seriously laments this issue. He spoke Chris Mooney on the Point of Inquiry podcast about this issue a while back:
http://www.pointofinquiry.org/david_frum_and_kenneth_silber_conservatives_and_science/

As a science/engineer kind of guy, I just can't imagine getting on board with the GOP because of science. I'll vote against my own interest before betraying science. So in a way, I guess I should kind of understand the way the low-level GOPers vote against their own interest because guns, gays, god, etc. (I'm kind of the reverse image of them in a way.)


But when I look at the Dem coalition, I can see that it is pretty unstable too. Only a small part of the coalition votes with them in the way I do. Others for for gay rights, others for immigration, others for black issues, etc.
 

RDreamer

Member
I know at least a few of you might appreciate this as much as I did:

bHdJk.jpg
 
I'm not even going to comment on most of that. I am going to comment on the running thread I've seen through Republican websites and in comments by Republicans. They seem to think that we need the plans of people like Romney in order to escape future "forced austerity." This whole argument seems strange to me. Essentially they're saying "We need forced austerity in order to escape future forced austerity." It doesn't make any sense to me.
Well if you do the thought experiment of printing a million dollars and giving each American a million dollars then you can clearly see that there will be really high inflation such that the value of the dollar will plummet. That is what they are worried about. But they make it out to be a bigger problem than it is. Japan has a much higher debt than we do but they are not collapsing.

And I agree that we need to get things under control but unlike the GOP, I go for a compromise solution with both tax increases and benefit cuts. Medicare needs to be put under some control . . . we spend on people as if they will live forever. We have to start admitting that people get old and die. We should not be buying 90 year olds knee replacements.
 

RDreamer

Member
Well if you do the thought experiment of printing a million dollars and giving each American a million dollars then you can clearly see that there will be really high inflation such that the value of the dollar will plummet. That is what they are worried about.

They're worried about an absolutely crazy scenario that absolutely no one is pushing for?
 
Well if you do the thought experiment of printing a million dollars and giving each American a million dollars then you can clearly see that there will be really high inflation such that the value of the dollar will plummet. That is what they are worried about. But they make it out to be a bigger problem than it is. Japan has a much higher debt than we do but they are not collapsing.

Indeed, and there is a tool for that (inflation). It's called taxation, which removes money from the system. Although, to be honest, the kind of event that you describe (a one-time injection of a ton of money) really wouldn't be that problematic. Inflation is a problem, because it means that prices are consistently rising over time. This causes waste because it requires time and effort for businesses to constantly adjust prices. As well, it creates perverse incentives to spend immediately in order to maximize what can be obtained for money that is expected to be able to command less real goods and services tomorrow or the next week. While a one-time injection of a ton of money would have a cost, in that businesses would definitely have to adjust prices, if there were no further injections, the cost really wouldn't be that bad. Consider that the prices of things would just have a bunch of zeros on them, but otherwise nothing would change.

Prices are social constructs that are arbitrary. It really doesn't matter if the price of something is $1,000,000 or $1. What matters is that the price is not consistently changing. That's why the Federal Reserve's mission is phrased in terms of price stability. Obviously, I'm not suggesting that what you describe should be done, because it doesn't actually change anything other than the number of zeros that go on the end of prices. Assuming the government gave everybody the same amount of money, the distribution of income, wealth, and resources would remain completely unchanged. Vendors would just have to break out their sharpies to add in the extra zeros to all the prices. I'm writing all this to try to illuminate what inflation is and why we worry about it. Of course, while inflation has costs for a society, unemployment has even more costs.

And I agree that we need to get things under control but unlike the GOP, I go for a compromise solution with both tax increases and benefit cuts. Medicare needs to be put under some control . . . we spend on people as if they will live forever. We have to start admitting that people get old and die. We should not be buying 90 year olds knee replacements.

So you want double austerity now? For what purpose? You have to be able to articulate a reason for using the government to intentionally make people poorer. Not only do you propose reducing people's financial savings with increased taxation but also, at the same time, denying them goods and services related to their health. What is the reason for this? Are you anticipating inflation? And, if so, on what basis? We have over 8% unemployment!
 

Chumly

Member
I think three things I would like to happen in a Obama second term is:

1. Higher taxes on the top 5%, 1%, .01%, .001%.
2. Significant infrastructure improvement/spending.
3. Closing tax loopholes on corporations and the rich.
 

Tim-E

Member
Second term wishes:
1) A massive public works program for infrastructure development (The American Jobs Act would suffice)
2) Marriage equality
3) Tax code reform (or let all of the Bush tax cuts expire)
 

markatisu

Member
Holy Shit at the fighting the news is teasing at the Iowa State Fair over Ryan.

In response Obama is going to shit on Ryan's parade and has decided to end his Iowa day at the State Fair lol

I actually think Obama is having a great deal of fun with Ryan as the pick.
 
They're worried about an absolutely crazy scenario that absolutely no one is pushing for?
No, clearly not. That is the reductio ad absurdum form of the argument. They just feel that massive government spending will create uncontrolled inflation. I use that example to show that at some point, it does really become a problem such that magic money theory won't save you.

But the problem is not as big as they think and it is not causing the current economic malaise as they may think.
 

RDreamer

Member
No, clearly not. That is the reductio ad absurdum form of the argument. They just feel that massive government spending will create uncontrolled inflation. I use that example to show that at some point, it does really become a problem such that magic money theory won't save you.

But the problem is not as big as they think and it is not causing the current economic malaise as they may think.

Bit this is still a strange boogie man. Again, we've had this debt nearly the entirety of our existence of our country. We've had the power to give out a million dollars to every person for a long time now. Why now is it suddenly some sort of real fear? And why is the debt itself the problem if what they're really afraid of is inflation? Last I checked inflation isn't high at all, so shouldn't they be waiting until it starts moving at a large rate, and then cut things off? Also, if they oppose inflation so bad then why do they also absolutely oppose tax increases?
 
Obama offered a personal shout-out to "special Mohawk Guy" (yes, the White House transcript capitalized "Guy"). "I, in the past, thought about getting a Mohawk myself, but my team keeps on discouraging me," Obama said. "And now that he's received marriage proposals and thousands of new Twitter followers, I think that I'm going to go back to my team and see if it makes sense."
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/...-team-says-mohawk-guy-inspired-213915456.html

Just do it after the election.
 
Bit this is still a strange boogie man. Again, we've had this debt nearly the entirety of our existence of our country. We've had the power to give out a million dollars to every person for a long time now. Why now is it suddenly some sort of real fear? And why is the debt itself the problem if what they're really afraid of is inflation? Last I checked inflation isn't high at all, so shouldn't they be waiting until it starts moving at a large rate, and then cut things off? Also, if they oppose inflation so bad then why do they also absolutely oppose tax increases?

Indeed, and demand tax cuts, which are inflationary. They are the functional equivalent of government spending. It seems the only person really worried about inflation is speculawyer. Well, and ToxicAdam. And I think they are wildly off the mark there.
 

RDreamer

Member
Badass, so uh, now can you (Obama) push for more science funding? k thanx bye.

Now would be such a perfect time to invigorate the American spirit with a big goal. Pledge a large amount of funding and guarantee a man on mars in the next 15 years or something. Do what we did with the moon. Get kids dreaming over possibilities and going to school for sciences. Get people into the American spirit with a huge goal that we can only accomplish collectively, something no other country is doing. Bring everyone together with this huge feat, and create jobs connected to NASA and all the work that would need to be done to get there. Get people believing in America as a collective.

But, no, we have to have a goddamned a debt scare.
 

Wazzim

Banned
Indeed, and there is a tool for that (inflation). It's called taxation, which removes money from the system. Although, to be honest, the kind of event that you describe (a one-time injection of a ton of money) really wouldn't be that problematic. Inflation is a problem, because it means that prices are consistently rising over time. This causes waste because it requires time and effort for businesses to constantly adjust prices. As well, it creates perverse incentives to spend immediately in order to maximize what can be obtained for money that is expected to be able to command less real goods and services tomorrow or the next week. While a one-time injection of a ton of money would have a cost, in that businesses would definitely have to adjust prices, if there were no further injections, the cost really wouldn't be that bad. Consider that the prices of things would just have a bunch of zeros on them, but otherwise nothing would change.

Prices are social constructs that are arbitrary. It really doesn't matter if the price of something is $1,000,000 or $1. What matters is that the price is not consistently changing. That's why the Federal Reserve's mission is phrased in terms of price stability. Obviously, I'm not suggesting that what you describe should be done, because it doesn't actually change anything other than the number of zeros that go on the end of prices. Assuming the government gave everybody the same amount of money, the distribution of income, wealth, and resources would remain completely unchanged. Vendors would just have to break out their sharpies to add in the extra zeros to all the prices. I'm writing all this to try to illuminate what inflation is and why we worry about it. Of course, while inflation has costs for a society, unemployment has even more costs.

What's better, increased spending by printing money or increased spending by lending money?
There are several up and downsides with both options, especially when keeping the current financial market in mind.
 
as long as Romney isn't elected and the supreme court can retain its "Balance" - at least, what it passes for balances these days - I'll be happy. I just hope Obama stops being a pussy next term. And I hope he isn't a little bitch when it comes to medical marijuana once again

At best he'll reduce the raids on medical marijuana places.

He can't decriminalize it. If the first black president legalizes pot then he'll be the last black president for a long time. You gotta let a white guy do that.
 

Amir0x

Banned
At best he'll reduce the raids on medical marijuana places.

He can't decriminalize it. If the first black president legalizes pot then he'll be the last black president for a long time. You gotta let a white guy do that.

oh i know

but the shit Obama said about marijuana when he was running and his actions when he has been president are so far at odds that it's almost shocking

it's one thing to not decriminalize it; i never expected that. It's another to ACTIVELY pursue dispensaries in states where it is perfectly legal. that takes a special kind of bitch
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Now would be such a perfect time to invigorate the American spirit with a big goal. Pledge a large amount of funding and guarantee a man on mars in the next 15 years or something. Do what we did with the moon. Get kids dreaming over possibilities and going to school for sciences. Get people into the American spirit with a huge goal that we can only accomplish collectively, something no other country is doing. Bring everyone together with this huge feat, and create jobs connected to NASA and all the work that would need to be done to get there. Get people believing in America as a collective.

But, no, we have to have a goddamned a debt scare.

Everyone knows we went to the moon thanks to Kennedy cutting government spending in science.
 

Amir0x

Banned
you can acknowledge they win elections without actively, ya know, whining about not seeing one for a whole day


that's bizarre dude
 

Chumly

Member
What's better, increased spending by printing money or increased spending by lending money?
There are several up and downsides with both options, especially when keeping the current financial market in mind.

I think that the government "spending" money is pretty much always better than lending. The government can creating jobs themselves is betting than lending banks money which won't necessarily do shit.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
You may not like watching them, but they win elections.

You're probably right, but we have no way of knowing how effective they actually are. And Superpacs are going to mean more of it in non-swing states this year, because they have loot to spare and will go full retard on the smaller races.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Obamaeconomy. He's a Harvard grad, he would use the ligature for sure.



This is one of those good old sow-reap phenomenons. The Southern strategy, fundamentally, is a reactionary movement, and it's a reactionary movement that emerged right in the middle of the golden age of American higher education and the heavy investment in public, government-owned universities. It's not surprising that it would become associated with anti-intellectualism. Extend that out for two or three entire generations and you get a movement that's running a couple of decades behind -- kind of like the problems the South faced with infrastructure after the Civil War.

I liked this post from a page or two back a lot. It could use a touch more nuance, like acknowledging the connections between religious fundamentalism, corporate sponsors, and how they amazingly tie together to mean a lack of regulation. But yeah.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Speaking of which what would you guys say your top 3 priorities for a 2nd Obama administration would be being realistic (so no sudden jump to a single payer system).

Realistic?
1. Bush Era Tax Cuts repealed for everyone over $250k, capital gains increased to 30%.
2. Jobs act passed.
3. Complete Withdrawal from Afghanistan.

Dream land?
1. War on Drugs abandoned.
2. National Rail.
3. Manned Mission to Mars by 2025.

Let's stop kidding ourselves?
1. Conservatives realize permanent minority status, abandon hate-based policy.
2. Cancer, AIDS, other stuff cured.
3. A real playoff system in NCAA football.
 
One GOP Strategist talked about Ryan helping with NH because of his Libertarian streak. Not off to a good start for that:

@ppppolls
Paul Ryan in New Hampshire: 36% favorable, 37% unfavorable, 27% no opinion

Speaking of which what would you guys say your top 3 priorities for a 2nd Obama administration would be being realistic (so no sudden jump to a single payer system).

1. Let Bush Tax Cuts expire (completely) in 2016. Let tax cuts for above 250k Expire as per this year.
2. Pass Infrastructure Bill/Jobs Act
3. Eliminate tax loopholes, tax breaks for industries that don't need them. Capital Gains, Dividends and Interest taxed as normal income. Wall Street Transaction fee.

Dream World:
Reintroduce Glass-Steagall
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
One GOP Strategist talked about Ryan helping with NH because of his Libertarian streak. Not off to a good start for that:





1. Let Bush Tax Cuts expire (completely) in 2016. Let tax cuts for above 250k Expire as per this year.
2. Pass Infrastructure Bill/Jobs Act
3. Eliminate tax loopholes, tax breaks for industries that don't need them. Capital Gains, Dividends and Interest taxed as normal income. Wall Street Transaction fee.

Dream World:
Reintroduce Glass-Steagall

And tax capital gains as income if bigger than income.

No more 1$ salaries!
 
Speaking of which what would you guys say your top 3 priorities for a 2nd Obama administration would be being realistic (so no sudden jump to a single payer system).

I'm surprised no one so far here has brought up immigration reform...

His Executive Order was just a wet band-aid that will soon fall off. A longer term solution/reform desperately needs to be implemented. The issue is so divisive that it could only possibly get done in the first couple years of Obama's second term.

I hope Obama finally has the balls to tackle the issue front and center, and get something done. Instead of just using it as a political cock-tease to woo hispanics.
 

Drakeon

Member
So, I haven't been paying attention to the house or senate races. How do those look for democrats currently? Based on what little I had heard, it was that the Democrats would probably still keep the senate but also continue to be a minority in the house.
 
I was impressed when the CNN guy finished his Obama vs Romney-Ryan Budget (good phrasing there too) with saying "that is an important detail missing from their plan" (talking about Romney's its so good you can't score it budget)
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
I was impressed when the CNN guy finished his Obama vs Romney-Ryan Budget (good phrasing there too) with saying "that is an important detail missing from their plan" (talking about Romney's its so good you can't score it budget)

On the other hand, Wolf Blitzer tried to give Romney-Ryan cover by saying they're only trying to fuck over people under 55, and everyone over that age would be perfectly fine.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
That's the thing about GAF. Quality conservative minds aren't getting steam-rolled out of the PoliGAF any more than climate change denialists, young earthers, birthers, racists/bigots, and fundamentalist backwater christians are getting steam-rolled out of any other thread. Hey -- swim in the toilet with those turds, and you're gonna get some on ya.

I really don't wanna hear that conservatives aren't given a completely fair chance here. It's just not true.
 

Chumly

Member
The thing is this kind of stuff gets called out on Gaf, but where I live this is seriously the common mentality of many many people. I had some lady at the hospital whining to me about how some kid was on Medicaid and she couldn't get her kid on Medicaid.

I completely agree. Its really frustrating hearing people say or imply it. I don't think anybody I have seen says it knows anything about what its like to be in those situations.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom