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PoliGAF 2013 |OT2| Worth 77% of OT1
- Thread starter The Librarian
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R10Neymarfan
Member
NYCmetsfan
Banned
So when the vote fails what does Pelosi demand? Add CR?
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Here is the NY quote:
That quote is why it's inevitable. I've talked to people like this. They acknowledge it's a better system but have this fundamental problem with it because they're told to. You can see the cognitive dissonance
That quote is why it's inevitable. I've talked to people like this. They acknowledge it's a better system but have this fundamental problem with it because they're told to. You can see the cognitive dissonance
RoninChaos
Member
It's always interesting to see what kind of insulting name conservatives come up with for everyone in these comment sections. OBAMACRAPS was one I hadn't heard before. And it's always interesting to have them go on some indignant rant talking about facts considering the circumstances.
RustyNails
Member
Wait, the government remains shut for 6 weeks while boehner tries to pacify his teaparty caucus? This isnt a serious proposal is it? I hope it gets shot down.
Fenderputty
Banned
Yeah ... So no CR and only 6 weeks for the debt ceiling? This is gonna get blasted right?
RoninChaos
Member
Got a link? I'd love to read that article. People in my state are fucking nuts. My mom has cancer and can't get on medicaid because the governor rejected the government expansion. When we were at the hospital pretty much the entire staff besides the doctors were up in arms over the governor pulling a stunt that denies care to people that need it.
What's worse is during this entire thing every doctor looks at us like we're mutants because she doesn't have health care. We ask questions about the prescreptions and things like that because we have to try and get them as cheaply as possible and the response is always "... you don't have insurance". There seems to be a real disconnect between physicians in these fields and the reality of the economic situation going on for a lot of people.
TestOfTide
Banned
the hilarious part is he admits he will try out the new subsidized healthcare anyway, at which point he will inevitably find out how much money obamacare is saving him.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
There's definitely a disconnect with private practice doctors. They still hate Obamacare, don't ask me why. It only gives then more customers and less headaches dealing with patients who can't pay.
Here is the article link:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/10/0...-district-urges-gop-to-keep-up-the-fight.html
How many times is Boehner going to suffer trying to pass things with TP votes only to fail? He's as myopic in seeing the futility there as Obama was in realizing how stupid it was to keep trying to negotiate in good faith with the GOP.
bodyofanamerican
Member
RustyNails
Member
What is Reid and Obama getting out of this? Why are they compromising their position of strength? Just let default be Boehner's Albatross. No talk until government opens. Dont negotiate with terrorists.
He's got no choice, really. If Boehner ever fails a test vote on one of his plans, the whole game's over. If he goes to Pelosi, she can demand a clean CR or a longer extension, etc., etc, at which point you may as well just cave on everything as fast as possible.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
When is the clean CR vote gonna be? If it's this weekend vote no. And reinforce linking the CR to it. Boehner thinks they'll have to vote yes but with a few more days why give him his prize now (no global crisis just a horrible economy) ?
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Little know fact, reason government workers aren't working this week is not do to shutdown but little know Clinton initiative
RoninChaos
Member
One of my mother's oncologists is from Germany. She said during her residency she had to not talk about her beliefs on socialized medicine because all the morons in my state would scream about how unamerican taking care of people was. She said if the public at large was much more informed about what drives medical costs they'd be SCREAMING for single payer, and I think she's right. I already felt that way, but it was nice to hear a doctor say that, especially in the fucked up state of Georgia, where anything the government is involved with automatically equals "BAD!".
When we talked about Obamacare specifically she said that a large push back from a lot of doctors is because of the payouts of procedures under the new law. In her view, a lot of older doctors in the field were used to being paid handsomely for their services and the last 20 years of medicare, medicaid, and now obamacare, have chipped away at those amounts. Couple that with how fucked up pricing can be on a per hospital/facility basis for a procedure, it's not hard to see that she could be right. Anecdotal I know, but it really got me thinking, because I haven't really heard that side of it when I've talked to other physicians. My primary care doctor is like "Let's get everybody in the system so we can help them". All the other doctors I see that are upset about things have never provided me a concrete answer. It hadn't occurred to me that it really could be a "Fuck you, pay me!" issue.
I think this has a multiplying effect because most everyone working in a hospital now is a specialist of some sort. When you get sick and go to the hospital, you always get your bill from the hospital and then like 40 other bills from every other person who helped. This also breaks up the aid that hospitals can give. The hospitals will typically be pretty generous with aid for people without insurance, but the specialists won't be. That's what we're experiencing now. What makes it worse is that most of these people don't get things taken care of until they're in the hospital system because they have no access to preventive care. So they end up with a ton of bills from specialists they can't pay, because things got bad enough that they had to go to a hospital. Hospitals eat a ton of the costs because the patients didn't have access to things that would have helped them catch the illness in the first place.
RoninChaos
Member
Oh wow. Yeah, just read it. Didn't realize it was up near Calhoun. I avoid that area if possible. Nothing but intolerance and ignorance up there. And good ole Dallas Georgia. My wife was looking at a house out there a long time ago. They wouldn't want her out there because she's hispanic.
The area the article talks about is literally a look at what the tea party base is, what they think, and how they act. Notice NONE of the people in the article could say what Obama has ruined or why they hate him.
mightynine
Member
The new Democracy Corps poll using named House incumbents instead of generic Dem/Rep shows Democrats with a 4% lead for the House.
http://www.democracycorps.com/Natio...democracy-corps-and-womens-voices-women-vote/
http://www.democracycorps.com/Natio...democracy-corps-and-womens-voices-women-vote/
ridethepiggy
Banned
While I understand Bams wouldn't really have a choice, I don't like it. Though I still question whether Boehner will allow a vote in the House.
Five minutes before the deadline. No room for error.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Not a fan of the 6wk DL. It's clear to all that the GOP will not allow us to default. Why not have the senate attatch a full DL raise+govt funding and send it back to the House.
RoninChaos
Member
... and now I"m getting into a facebook argument. I have a guy telling me that the hostage taking the GOP is involved in with the economy is, in fact, legislation.
Fenderputty
Banned
This.
PhoenixDark
Banned
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/house-republicans-mull-short-term-debt-limit-hike
That's such a petty, stupid power move that doesn't actually have any power. We clearly aren't going to default, so that language was added to appease tea party members.
Blow this thing up. The debt ceiling should be democrat's leverage. Releasing it for 6 weeks only allows republicans to play with the shutdown more.
Vet benefits run out on November 1st btw, which means we'll get another game of piecemeal CRs. End this.
ridethepiggy
Banned
They boxed Obama in though. Imagine the media running with 'GOP offered Obama a clean debt ceiling increase and he turned it down'.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Exactly. Republicans just want 6 more weeks of hostage taking, why should that be allowed to happen when it's clear they have no intention of shooting the hostage?
At least Carney seems to be sending a condescending tone to tea party congressman right now. What better way to potentially stir a revolt, before the vote. If the tea party blows this up, or forces an addition to the extension that democrats don't like...I'd call their bluff. In fact, I'd call it on Sunday evening, a day before the holiday; that way the market will open on Tuesday in a panic. They will have no choice but to pass whatever Reid sends them.
Fenderputty
Banned
Taking one of the two guns away that they're holding too Obamas head ( only temporarily at that) is a shit deal. Whether that can be messaged is another thing entirely.
the democrats have a storied history of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory
PhoenixDark
Banned
I really wonder what Reid thinks about this.
Fenderputty
Banned
He's been surprisingly awesome recently so I hope he thinks it's shit too.
Black Mamba
Member
probably the same as Obama.
If this is a relatively clean debt limit hike, no matter the time length, you can't turn it down.
If Obama/Reid turns it down, the default rests on their hands. What will Obama's excuse be? We allowed the country to default despite a clean DL extension because the gov't was still shutdown? They will lose that argument.
And as I mentioned last night, even with a 6 weeks extension (so 7 weeks from now), the GOP gives up their leverage on the shutdown for at least 5 weeks. They're going to be forced to lose that battle quickly, I think.
ridethepiggy
Banned
Exactly. Right now Dems are winning the political battle and if they turn down a clean extension they will lose it.
RustyNails
Member
"Democrats wanted a clean bill, we gave them a clean bill. Now they wont vote on it."
Black Mamba
Member
One that does that only puts more pressure on the GOP.
In addition, since Obama acting post-DL ceiling would be based on the constitution, any law Congress passes would be irrelevant.
PhoenixDark
Banned
We're not going to default. That should be clear after today. Therefore why allow republicans to dictate the terms of the DL raise?
I honestly don't understand the Republican's objective by passing a short-term debt limit increase. Passing the increase now without political strings attached is basically admitting defeat in the eyes of the Tea Party anyway. How long can they justify keeping the government shut down afterwards while clearly losing the PR battle, and would they really be dumb enough to try this all over again in just 6 weeks? I just don't understand what they are anticipating to change in 6 weeks time that would make them more likely to get concessions out of the debt ceiling. And if passing a clean bill is giving up on trying to get concessions out of the DL, why only 6 weeks?
I guess I would say the Dems should vote yes for the Debt Limit extension, because I can't see how anything other than another clean DL increase will pass again in 6 weeks, while voting against the short term raise now could hurt the PR war on the shutdown. My guess is Boehner just wants the time to cut a Grand Bargain on the budget before time comes to vote to increase the Debt Ceiling long term so that he can spin it as something other than capitulation. But if that's the case, why not attach a short term reopening of the government as well to get Dems to the table so he can start trying to save face? I'm guessing that would be his ideal plan but the Tea Party won't accept both (and hell, they might not even accept just one).
I guess I would say the Dems should vote yes for the Debt Limit extension, because I can't see how anything other than another clean DL increase will pass again in 6 weeks, while voting against the short term raise now could hurt the PR war on the shutdown. My guess is Boehner just wants the time to cut a Grand Bargain on the budget before time comes to vote to increase the Debt Ceiling long term so that he can spin it as something other than capitulation. But if that's the case, why not attach a short term reopening of the government as well to get Dems to the table so he can start trying to save face? I'm guessing that would be his ideal plan but the Tea Party won't accept both (and hell, they might not even accept just one).
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
I wouldn't be too surpised. Republicans might try and spin the debt ceiling as a big concession and try and use that as ammo for the shutdown blame game. "We gave Obama what he wanted by raising the debt ceiling with nothing in return, now why can't we negotiate this shutdown?".
They might have to give up if the polls still don't get better for them after that. Then they might end up settling for a CR, and then in 6 weeks do that chained CPI in exchange for a tax raise deal that the tea party blocked earlier but Obama was somehow for.
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
This is so true. My wife spent one (ONE!) night in the hospital for a ruptured ovarian cyst and we've gotten three separate bills so far. We're not sure how many more to expect. Total cost for an overnight stay, a few IVs of morphine, a CT scan and a whole lot of waiting around? Over $15,500.
Yup! This was it. Was surprised to see it on TV.
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