Black Mamba
Member
passing a clean DL is on Obama's terms, though.
This sums it up real well: http://www.salon.com/2013/10/10/john_boehners_clumsy_end_game_house_republicans_run_for_the_exits/
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PoliGAF 2013 |OT2| Worth 77% of OT1
- Thread starter The Librarian
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passing a clean DL is on Obama's terms, though.
This sums it up real well: http://www.salon.com/2013/10/10/john_boehners_clumsy_end_game_house_republicans_run_for_the_exits/
Fenderputty
Banned
It's only part of Obamas terms. Terms were for both clean CR and DL. If his stance is that he can't negotiate with guns to his head, how would accepting a 6 week DL increase with no CR change this extortion dynamic?
I get what you guys are saying about how the GOP would try to message this as the dems being uncompromising, but what do you think is the dems end game if they accept this?
Black Mamba
Member
Read the article I just posted. Obama will simply wait for them to pass the CR before negotiating.
Taking the DL off the table for a while removes all shutdown leverage from the GOP, really.
Fenderputty
Banned
I just did. You hadn't edited it in by the time posted.
Hmm. So sign it and still refuse to negotiate until the second gun is removed as well. So far the dems have been fairly successful in messaging this as the GOP shutdown.
I guess it just makes me nervous that the dems will continue to be successful here.
Personally I hope Obama's stance that he won't negotiate even after a clean DL fucks up Boehner's plans enough with getting GOP votes to force him to accept whatever Reid is gonna toss his way.
RoninChaos
Member
And I think that's part of the reasons some doctors are glood and doom about this shit. They aren't going to get paid the way the used to.
bodyofanamerican
Member
Against my better judgement, I went on RedState and looked at Erickson's latest post, and I'm genuinely confused as to how he's reconciling passing the clean debt limit with holding the line.
Isn't them passing even the 6 week debt limit conceding that it's no longer a leverage point for them? Am I thinking about this too much?
Isn't them passing even the 6 week debt limit conceding that it's no longer a leverage point for them? Am I thinking about this too much?
More than he has.
Black Mamba
Member
HAHAHAHA!
Oh my god, Senate Rs capping House Rs in the knees would be amazing. Please let this happen.
Basically, Reid can amend the DL hike to include a clear CR and if the Senate Rs vote for it (and basically create it) it kills Boehner 100%. he can't do anything but vote on it, right!? Otherwise he's going against Senate Rs too.
jamesinclair
Banned
Quick question
Are the fed employees on the job getting a paycheck tomorrow?
Are the fed employees on the job getting a paycheck tomorrow?
This needs to happen. Hopefully Senate Republicans have the intelligence to do this.
HAHAHAHA!
Oh my god, Senate Rs capping House Rs in the knees would be amazing. Please let this happen.
Basically, Reid can amend the DL hike to include a clear CR and if the Senate Rs vote for it (and basically create it) it kills Boehner 100%. he can't do anything but vote on it, right!? Otherwise he's going against Senate Rs too.
Fenderputty
Banned
OMG please let this happen. Then the R's can get back to hanging themselves by suggesting the entitlement cuts their older base doesn't want them to touch.
Wait, isn't the significance of that particular tax repeal lost on at least most of the voting base, if not some GOP congresspeople themselves? As I understand it taxation is ultimately the removal of money from money supply. In the mind of most GOP supporters I assume that they think the primary reason it should be repealed is that it encumbers device companies and then the public, and not because they actually take government debt less seriously than they claim (though this is likely the case, at least to some small degree, anyway.)
PhoenixDark
Banned
So they're doing what I advocated on the last page. Allegedly, as this could change. It would be the ultimate "fuck you" to Boehner, Cruz, etc.
I'm a furloughed federal employee, but don't have a full answer. Here's a partial. The military and the civilians that ended up under the military exception signed just before the shutdown started will get paid.
"Essential" fed employees that didn't fall under the military exemption are working but won't get paid.
However, all of us worked half a pay period before the shutdown kicked in and I'm not sure if I'll be getting a paycheck for that work tomorrow or will have to wait until after the shutdown.
Black Mamba
Member
lolz.
The Culture Vulture
Member
Yes but only paying for the days worked in September (about half of a full paycheck).
mightynine
Member
If Senate Rs do that, it has to be the ultimate slap on the wrist (or face) to Cruz for getting things to this point.
RustyNails
Member
At this point Cruz and his followers really need to breakout and form their own party. Divided shit cant stand forever. Its that bad.
empty vessel
Member
To unencumber device companies and the public by freeing them from taxes is the same as taking debt less seriously. They are equal statements. One cannot choose between them.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Politifact is launching punditfact. The laughs that will be had.
It's gonna be all fox and the more pompous MSNBC hosts isn't it?
It's gonna be all fox and the more pompous MSNBC hosts isn't it?
ridethepiggy
Banned
Reid's balls dropped this year.
http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/...ly-around-rival-plan-on-debt-ceiling-shutdown
Sounds like year-long CR to fund the government (at sequester levels), debt ceiling increase for 3-6 months.
Definately not a "clean bill" though, it's got the medical device tax repeal, income verification for Obamacare subisidies, and maybe the Vitter rule.
Still think they need to give something to Dems in exchange for those things.
Sounds like year-long CR to fund the government (at sequester levels), debt ceiling increase for 3-6 months.
Definately not a "clean bill" though, it's got the medical device tax repeal, income verification for Obamacare subisidies, and maybe the Vitter rule.
Still think they need to give something to Dems in exchange for those things.
Reid should just try to force a vote on the House's bill without amendments and let the GOP Senate filibuster the House's debt ceiling increase.
PhoenixDark
Banned
interesting
edit: just saw the details. God dammit
shitty rotten deal, don't take the bait dems.
rocketknight
Member
ridethepiggy
Banned
crappy plan, ugh.
Man this short-term deal is shady as hell. And if I have this right it specifically prevents Obama from taking "extraordinary measures" (i.e. 14th Amendment/Treasury), correct? WTF? If he gives into that the Republicans will be able to push full steam ahead with delay/defund Obamacare. Please don't fall for this Obama, no one wants this to go through the GOP's Obamacare hissyfit again through the holiday season.
Grab some popcorn, everyone. It's going to be a long ride.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I will say: this turn of events highlights how much better at his job McConnell is than Boehner, and why tea party extremists have ensured numerous failures for republicans over the last 3 years. McConnell could have gotten chained CPI, Medicare means testing, and a host of other things from Obama in 2011 if not for tea party types blowing everything up. All or nothing isn't a good long term strategy. It shows that the far right isn't truly seriously about policy gains.
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thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah. I think people here were being too extreme about not accepting a clean debt limit raise without a clean CR and maybe even an actual republican concession, but this deal is still completely unacceptable.
I'm actually pretty OK with the Vitter amendment without any concessions. I don't get government healthcare working for the government because I work as a contractor, so I feel less bad about them losing their government health care, and maybe it'd put further pressure on them to give everyone universal healthcare just like the type they'd be giving up.
However I am not ok with even just a Vitter Amendment for debt ceiling and appropriation bill, because the hostage taking can not be encouraged in any way, shape, or form.
jamesinclair
Banned
So next question.
There are three classes:
Military: Full pay, business as usual (fuck you Obama)
Essential: Full work, but no pay until shutdown ends
Non-essential: ???
Is the third group who are sitting at home receiving full pay at the end?
Meaning the essential are doing full work for standard pay, and the non-essential are doing NO work for standard pay?
If so, why are the essential people bothering to come in?
And if the non-essentials are getting full pay anyway....why are they at home and not working?
yeah that's no good. there was to be no negotiation except now they're negotiating? i hope reid and obama keep pushing for complete capitulation on part of the people who initiated this nonsense in the first place.
Not good. We really should discourage the periodic hostage taking. The voting numbers from Congress aren't changing any time soon, but I hope the Democrats send a message that we're going back to passing budgets for entire fiscal years.
Yes, but I was saying that most GOP voters probably aren't conscious of that, considering how prominent deficit reduction is as a talking point.
bodyofanamerican
Member
Out of all those things, I could live with the income verification the most. It legitimizes the law as a real, actual thing that you qualify for. Tacitly acknowledges the benefits of it too.
TacticalFox88
Banned
Sounds like 'Bams is in for the long haul.
Unconditional surrender indeed.
Exactly how it should be.
The kicker is a "year long stopgap to fund the government".
That's not a stopgap - that's the budget for the entire fisal year. The House-Senate conference? Toast. And it's set at the level the House GOP set, which was something like 30% below Obama's budget. So they get total victory on the budget. There's nothing left to negotiate but how much they can gut from entitlements, ACA, etc.
Terrible.
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thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Depends on how easy it is. It might not be so great if it makes all applications take a month to process, and if there's already a check by the IRS done latter at tax season to catch the liers.
But I don't really know how all that stuff is supposed to work.
ridethepiggy
Banned
Income verification ISN'T NEEDED. At the end of the year people will have to pay back any subsidies they received if they underestimated their income. Even then the first year or so will have a 10% buffer. It's not needed AT ALL.
It's needed for non-existent bogeymen and to ensure that the GOP gets it's wish that it is as hard as fucking possible for people to use the exchanges as intended. Wouldn't want the process to be smooth, people may like it!
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