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PoliGAF 2013 |OT2| Worth 77% of OT1

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M

Mario

Sidhe / PikPok
TacticalFox88 said:
12 Phrases Progressives say and what they could say instead

What say you GAF? Agree? Disagree?
Click to expand...

Not sure I'm on board with all the suggestions, but I agree with the implication that progressives need much better messaging and communication.

Republicans worked out long ago words can overshadow or obfuscate the substance of an idea, which they exploited to great effect in 2009 and 2010 in neutering Obamacare and taking the House.

Their messaging is reduced to simple language, emotionally loaded, and highly repeated making it easy to remember, fast to travel, and useful to the common man supporter.

Democratic messaging is often convoluted, nuanced, and leans on ideas over language, hamstringing the pace of travel and the ability for their base to all be on the same page (or at least seem that way to themselves and others).

The ability of the Republicans to drive and manipulate the narrative through their use of language has been their greatest asset since Obama came into power.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
Kelly Ayotte Backs Immigration Bill

TPM backpat said:
Sen. Kelly Ayotte (R-NH) announced her support Sunday for bipartisan immigration reform legislation currently under debate in the U.S. Senate.

“I looked at the border security provisions, the E-Verify to make sure we control who’s getting a job in this country, and also making sure that there’s a better legal immigration system, bring the high-tech workers here to make sure that we can have the best and the brightest here in this country to grow our economy,” Ayotte said on CBS r. “This is a good bipartisan solution and I look forward to supporting it.”

Ayotte commonly aligns with Sens. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) and John McCain (R-AZ), two of the bill's co-authors. Ayotte's support is a significant blow to the immigration reform opposition, led in the Senate by Sens. Ted Cruz (R-TX), Mike Lee (R-UT), and Jeff Sessions (R-AL). But more Republicans will ultimately need to announce support for the legislation to guarantee its eventual passage.
Click to expand...
Ron-Paul_Its-Happening1.gif


unless she decides to support a vastly more conservative bill and still claim to support immigration reform olololol
 
U

User 406

Banned
I am entitled to a fucking society that makes sure nobody goes hungry, homeless, or dies of a treatable health problem.

Trying to scurry away from terms the right has demonized to more awkwardly wordsmithed phrases makes about as much sense as giving up on the word "marriage" just because some people want it all to themselves.
 
O

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
This whole thing about the government essentially destroying the 4th amendment is BO-RING. Let's move on to more amusing things. Like the resurgence of skewed polls!

A Republican pollster is claiming that the US Senate race in Massachusetts is tied.

McLaughlin & Associates reports that Rep. Ed Markey (D) and Gabriel Gomez (R) are within 1% of each other, a statistical tie. The firm brags that Gomez has “stolen the momentum” in the race.

Other, more independent pollsters including New England College and Emerson College have reported recent polls showing Markey with a 12% lead over the pro-gun Republican.

The poll is being promoted by conservative websites like The Weekly Standard and The Drudge Report.

Back in 2012, McLaughlin & Associates also provided hope to Republicans.
Click to expand...

www.nationalconfidential.com/201306...-winning-in-2012-states-he-lost/#.UbORq5zfKSq


I for one support the idea of skewed polling remaining firm in the conservative psyche.
 
G

gcubed

Member
Dax01 said:
So what data does this apply to? Phone records, or does this include the internet information? Because if they're doing it on a case-by-case basis, and only targeting people outside the US, then there definitely was an overreaction.
Click to expand...

Only data. Phone records seems completely accurate
 
R

rocketknight

Member
Meanwhile, Louisiana is slipping further and further away as a state senator switches to the Republican party (I don't know why he was even a Dem in the first place - he swapped from R to D in 2007 so maybe he's just confused - because he's just spouting Fox talking points):

...

On Friday, Guillory said he had come to disagree with the direction of the Louisiana Democratic Party, which he referred to as "the party of disappointment." He expressed his opposition with the party's stances on abortion, the Second Amendment, education and immigration.

"Today, the party of disappointment has moved away from the majority of Louisiana. They have moved away from the traditional values of most Americans," he said. "Their policies have encouraged the high teen birth rates, high school drop out rates, high incarceration rates and very high unemployment rates."

Sens. Gerald Long and Elbert GuilloryState Sen. Gerald Long, R-Winnfield addresses the @large conference on Friday, May 31, 2013 after state Sen. Elbert Guillory announced his move to the Republican Party. Lauren McGaughy, NOLA.com | The Times-Picayune

After the event, Guillory shed some light on his decision, saying remarks by the state party chair this week influenced his decision. During debate Wednesday on a bill to expand Medicaid coverage in Louisiana, Sen. Karen Carter Peterson said fellow lawmakers had told her they based their opposition to the Affordable Care Act, or Obamacare, on the race of the president and not on policy.

"The accusations of racism this week certainly helped push me over the edge. I thought that they were over the edge," Guillory said in an interview Friday. "It just showed me just how far out of tune I was, I am, with the Democrat Party."

...
Click to expand...

Because, you know, the GOP is the party for you if you like challenging racism, appropriately funding education, dismantling the prison industrial complex and preventing teen pregnancy. Also the Democrats have moved further left while the GOP has stayed in the same place.
 
empty vessel

empty vessel

Member
rocketknight said:
Meanwhile, Louisiana is slipping further and further away as a state senator switches to the Republican party (I don't know why he was even a Dem in the first place - he swapped from R to D in 2007 so maybe he's just confused - because he's just spouting Fox talking points):

On Friday, Guillory said he had come to disagree with the direction of the Louisiana Democratic Party, which he referred to as "the party of disappointment." He expressed his opposition with the party's stances on abortion, the Second Amendment, education and immigration.

"Today, the party of disappointment has moved away from the majority of Louisiana. They have moved away from the traditional values of most Americans," he said. "Their policies have encouraged the high teen birth rates, high school drop out rates, high incarceration rates and very high unemployment rates."
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Translation: I feel more comfortable with white people.

Sen. Karen Carter Peterson:

GxEx69x.jpg


The parties in the South are almost totally racially divided. White liberals will remain, but you'll have to be pretty damn liberal to stick it out down there as whites continue to abandon it for racial reasons.
 
R

rocketknight

Member
empty vessel said:
Translation: I feel more comfortable with white people.

Sen. Karen Carter Peterson:

http://i.imgur.com/GxEx69x.jpg

The parties in the South are almost totally racially divided. White liberals will remain, but you'll have to be pretty damn liberal to stick it out down there as whites continue to abandon it for racial reasons.
Click to expand...

Guillory is actually black himself, which makes him the only Republican member of the Louisiana Legislative Black Caucus.
 
D

Dr. Pangloss

Member
rocketknight said:
Meanwhile, Louisiana is slipping further and further away as a state senator switches to the Republican party (I don't know why he was even a Dem in the first place - he swapped from R to D in 2007 so maybe he's just confused - because he's just spouting Fox talking points):



Because, you know, the GOP is the party for you if you like challenging racism, appropriately funding education, dismantling the prison industrial complex and preventing teen pregnancy. Also the Democrats have moved further left while the GOP has stayed in the same place.
Click to expand...

Actually the best policy you can do to combat high teen birth rates, high school drop out rates, high incarceration rates and very high unemployment rates is to have a subsidize universal preschool system. Planet Money did an episode on this a while back. Turns out Oklahoma of all places has the best system in the country.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
gcubed said:
Only data. Phone records seems completely accurate
Click to expand...

Yeah, everything besides the phone records always seemed poorly substantiated, undetailed, or overly complex, so I didn't give the initial claims too much credence. But the phone records thing always stuck out as the one that could be accurate at face value
 
Guileless

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Unless you want to devote the amount of time necessary to learn a second language, don't attempt to understand Louisiana politics.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
Louisiana is a very conservative state with a surprisingly functional two party system - people just switch parties whenever they want to be in the majority, which right now is the Republicans.
 
W

worldrunover

Member
TacticalFox88 said:
12 Phrases Progressives say and what they could say instead



What say you GAF? Agree? Disagree?
Click to expand...

I like marriage equality, anti-choice, and gun safety. These should be able to be easily adapted into the public's rhetoric. A few of the others (like "unelected government") may be too clever by half, although I like the idea of it.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Chichikov said:
Real American hero.
The thread in the OT want to make me stab people through the internet.
Apparently he didn't have enough klingon honor or something.
Click to expand...

He did good, also I love the guy's name. It's sort of fitting that the leak came from a guy with a name from Catch-22.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
TacticalFox88 said:
12 Phrases Progressives say and what they could say instead



What say you GAF? Agree? Disagree?
Click to expand...

Some of these, like social safety net, I generally say. Some, like anti-choice or "unelected government," I would avoid for fear of appearing too aggressive. But the most important one I use is missing -- "conservative." The American "conservative movement" isn't conservative at all -- that would mean moving slowly and carefully towards change to slow the progressive embrace of it. They want lots of things to change very fast -- backwards. What they are is reactionary, and it's important to observe that to understand modern politics.
 
S

speculawyer

Member
Aaron Strife said:
The gay rights movement has been pretty good about reframing the debate in their favor. I see "marriage equality" about as much as "gay marriage" now. One of the only areas where the left is clearly gaining the upper hand.
Click to expand...
I think one of the reasons they've been so successful lately is that is something that could be done without any spending. It doesn't cost the government anything to let people get married and be open in the military.
 
S

speculawyer

Member
Dr. Pangloss said:
Wrong. Benefits to spouses.
Click to expand...

But people that get married have to pay the 'marriage penalty' tax too.


I know what you mean but the thing is that when you pass these gay right laws, there are no immediate direct spending programs or taxing programs. And that makes them easier to pass.

Whether they are a net positive or negative on revenues is up for debate though. There will be all sorts unanticipated consequences.
 
E

el retorno

Member
I've been thinking about the NSA stuff


I've always been open to the possibility of one day trying to work in intelligence, its something that interests me but after reading about the leaker I'm struck by the fact that I dislike leakers. I feel like there is a betrayal there there runs counter to their claims and desire for a public good. On one hand I don't mind discussing the issues (I think its important to debate) that are being brought up but I can't help but still kinda feel some disdain for the guy taking advantage of his clearances. I just have a fierce loyalty to my country (I oppose certain aspects of course but I don't really think its the place of a career intelligence agent to do what he did, I'd much rather it be a politician if it was leaked)

I just don't know how to view what he did. While I really dislike what I'm hearing about the NSA and the phones the internet prism stuff seems not to bother me as much.

If I had his post I just could never justify leaking. I don't view him as a hero either. And I have no problem with him serving time. I love journalism and the free press but I guess sometimes when I think about my career I get that there are multiple values being weight and its tough to ascribe things as a absolute moral good or evil.

I love to debate this issue (security vs. liberty) but at the same time I feel like this info never should have leaked...
 
M

Mr. RHC

Member
el retorno said:
I've been thinking about the NSA stuff

I just don't know how to view what he did. While I really dislike what I'm hearing about the NSA and the phones the internet prism stuff seems not to bother me as much.

If I had his post I just could never justify leaking. I don't view him as a hero either. And I have no problem with him serving time. I love journalism and the free press but I guess sometimes when I think about my career I get that there are multiple values being weight and its tough to ascribe things as a absolute moral good or evil.

I love to debate this issue (security vs. liberty) but at the same time I feel like this info never should have leaked...
Click to expand...


Why should the info never have leaked? Who benefits from this guy serving time? Where did he ever say that his actions were absolutely moral good?
 
C

Chichikov

Member
el retorno said:
I've been thinking about the NSA stuff


I've always been open to the possibility of one day trying to work in intelligence, its something that interests me but after reading about the leaker I'm struck by the fact that I dislike leakers. I feel like there is a betrayal there there runs counter to their claims and desire for a public good. On one hand I don't mind discussing the issues (I think its important to debate) that are being brought up but I can't help but still kinda feel some disdain for the guy taking advantage of his clearances. I just have a fierce loyalty to my country (I oppose certain aspects of course but I don't really think its the place of a career intelligence agent to do what he did, I'd much rather it be a politician if it was leaked)

I just don't know how to view what he did. While I really dislike what I'm hearing about the NSA and the phones the internet prism stuff seems not to bother me as much.

If I had his post I just could never justify leaking. I don't view him as a hero either. And I have no problem with him serving time. I love journalism and the free press but I guess sometimes when I think about my career I get that there are multiple values being weight and its tough to ascribe things as a absolute moral good or evil.

I love to debate this issue (security vs. liberty) but at the same time I feel like this info never should have leaked...
Click to expand...
What reason there is the world to hide such things from the public?
I mean shit, anyone who cares about those things knew already that the NSA is spying on the internet, and I'm not talking about terrorist/foreign intelligence agencies, I'm talking about people like me who follow the news.

Two more important points - all that crap was justified in the context of 9/11, which again, was a bunch of cave dwellers who got box cutters into some airplanes, cave dwellers WE ALREADY HAD UNDER FUCKING SURVEILLANCE.
But maybe more importantly, the US spy agencies do not have the track record that would make me trust them blindly, they were wrong on pretty much every important thing (Korea, Vietnam, the fall of the Soviet Block, China, 9/11, Iraq) and led this country into stupid wars and destroyed the image of the US abroad time after time.

I want to know what they're doing and why.

I do accept that there is some need for secrecy, but all of it must have civilian oversight, and all of it must be declassified after the appropriate time (which I honestly can't imagine be more than a decade for 99% of the stuff) and we should evaluate if secrecy was justified.
 
C

cooljeanius

Member
pigeon said:
But the most important one I use is missing -- "conservative." The American "conservative movement" isn't conservative at all -- that would mean moving slowly and carefully towards change to slow the progressive embrace of it. They want lots of things to change very fast -- backwards. What they are is reactionary, and it's important to observe that to understand modern politics.
Click to expand...
This is why my Dad says he'd be a conservative if the modern Republican Party hadn't commandeered the word.
 
E

el retorno

Member
Chichikov said:
What reason there is the world to hide such things from the public?
I mean shit, anyone who cares about those things knew already that the NSA is spying on the internet, and I'm not talking about terrorist/foreign intelligence agencies, I'm talking about people like me who follow the news.

Two more important points - all that crap was justified in the context of 9/11, which again, was a bunch of cave dwellers who got box cutters into some airplanes, cave dwellers WE ALREADY HAD UNDER FUCKING SURVEILLANCE.
But maybe more importantly, the US spy agencies do not have the track record that would make me trust them blindly, they were wrong on pretty much every important thing (Korea, Vietnam, the fall of the Soviet Block, China, 9/11, Iraq) and led this country into stupid wars and destroyed the image of the US abroad time after time.

I want to know what they're doing and why.

I do accept that there is some need for secrecy, but all of it must have civilian oversight, and all of it must be declassified after the appropriate time (which I honestly can't imagine be more than a decade for 99% of the stuff) and we should evaluate if secrecy was justified.
Click to expand...

Most of the stuff I saw said declasification after 2030something. So 2 decades.

Its that I'm not opposed to this stuff being public, just the fact that a no-name guy felt it upon himself to leak things even after he went to work an agency whos job it is to spy, I feel like there's a breach of trust and I don't think some staffer has the right if he disagrees to leak stuff.

Like I said I'm happy we get to have the debate about the issue but I just don't like how and from who it came about.

Dax01 said:
Chait making fun of Greenwald. Hahahaha
Click to expand...

some of greenwald tweets in the past two days have made me realize he's the same old hyperbolic blogger he's always been.
 
A

Avon Barksdale

Member
Rand Paul is now leading in Michigan (of all places).

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2013/06/michigan-miscellany.html

Speaking to his increased national stature over the first half of 2013, the leading Republican for President in Michigan is Rand Paul. 18% of primary voters in the state say he would be their first choice for 2016, followed by Jeb Bush at 16%, Chris Christie at 15%, Paul Ryan at 12%, Marco Rubio at 11%, Ted Cruz at 7%, Rick Santorum at 6%, Bobby Jindal at 4%, and Susana Martinez with less than 1%.

Paul leads based on his strength with two key groups. Among voters who identify themselves as 'very conservative,' he's at 31% with none of the other GOP hopefuls higher than 15%. And with voters under 45 he's at 28%, giving him at least a 13 point lead over the rest of the field. That appeal to younger voters suggests he may be able to replicate the strong base of support his father had with them in last year's race.
Click to expand...
 
E

el retorno

Member
Avon Barksdale said:
Rand Paul is now leading in Michigan (of all places).

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2013/06/michigan-miscellany.html
Click to expand...

More important news, twitter handles more popular than representatives

-It is perhaps a sign of how dim GOP prospects in national elections are in Michigan that one of the party's leading potential candidates for the Senate next year would trail in a hypothetical match up with a twitter handle. The person behind the well known liberal twitter handle LOLGOP lives in Ann Arbor and we find that LOLGOP would lead Congressman Justin Amash 23/22 in a head to head match. That sort of climate for Republicans may be why it's been hard to get top tier candidates into the race for the open Senate seat there next year.
Click to expand...
 
C

Chichikov

Member
el retorno said:
Most of the stuff I saw said declasification after 2030something. So 2 decades.

Its that I'm not opposed to this stuff being public, just the fact that a no-name guy felt it upon himself to leak things even after he went to work an agency whos job it is to spy, I feel like there's a breach of trust and I don't think some staffer has the right if he disagrees to leak stuff.

Like I said I'm happy we get to have the debate about the issue but I just don't like how and from who it came about.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I understand your argument, we wouldn't have this discussion without that leak.
For real, what's the downside of that leak?
Also, I'm not sure why it matter who we got it from, I think we should only ask ourselves if we're better off because of that leak, and I honestly I can't imagine how anyone who care about the bill of rights can answer with anything but a resounding yes.
 
Angry Fork

Angry Fork

Member
el retorno said:
I've been thinking about the NSA stuff


I've always been open to the possibility of one day trying to work in intelligence, its something that interests me but after reading about the leaker I'm struck by the fact that I dislike leakers. I feel like there is a betrayal there there runs counter to their claims and desire for a public good. On one hand I don't mind discussing the issues (I think its important to debate) that are being brought up but I can't help but still kinda feel some disdain for the guy taking advantage of his clearances. I just have a fierce loyalty to my country (I oppose certain aspects of course but I don't really think its the place of a career intelligence agent to do what he did, I'd much rather it be a politician if it was leaked)

I just don't know how to view what he did. While I really dislike what I'm hearing about the NSA and the phones the internet prism stuff seems not to bother me as much.

If I had his post I just could never justify leaking. I don't view him as a hero either. And I have no problem with him serving time. I love journalism and the free press but I guess sometimes when I think about my career I get that there are multiple values being weight and its tough to ascribe things as a absolute moral good or evil.

I love to debate this issue (security vs. liberty) but at the same time I feel like this info never should have leaked...
Click to expand...


So you hate whistleblowers because you have some kind of emotional bond to a flag? I don't understand. Patriotism/nationalism isn't moral on it's own.
 
E

el retorno

Member
Chichikov said:
I'm not sure I understand your argument, we wouldn't have this discussion without that leak.
For real, what's the downside of that leak?
Also, I'm not sure why it matter who we got it from, I think we should only ask ourselves if we're better off because of that leak, and I honestly I can't imagine how anyone who care about the bill of rights can answer with anything but a resounding yes.
Click to expand...

I can't really justify my feelings I guess it based off the fact that I think he hurt a lot of people with the way he did it, there are ways to broach these issues (and politicians have the ability) without leaking. But like I said if it was a person in a position of power (like drake was) or a politician with some accountability and legitimacy I guess I would feel better.

As time goes on though I think we should debate what was revealed even if I don't like how it was. as its an important debate.

Angry Fork said:
So you hate whistleblowers because you have some kind of emotional bond to a flag? I don't understand. Patriotism/nationalism isn't moral on it's own.
Click to expand...

And its more of the fact that he signed up for it and took a job with the expectation of secrecy
Its not liked he was forced to do what he did (his job)

And I am loyal to my country (unless it was wholesale killing innocent people like the holocaust which its not going to do).
 
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