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PoliGAF 2014 |OT| Kay Hagan and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad News

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Diablos

Member
It is kind of annoying that Hilary comes along and says " oh hey, i would have fixed Syria." It's such a shame that we can't prove you wrong i guess we'll just have to take your word for it.
...and it's kind of infuriating that Hillary also came along and blamed a bunch of innocent Palestinians being carelessly murdered by Israel on the unpredictable "fog of war".

If she keeps this shit up I'll be going from optimistic to voting to Hillary to simply voting for her because I'm smart enough to know the alternative would be profoundly worse.
 
...and it's kind of infuriating that Hillary also came along and blamed a bunch of innocent Palestinians being carelessly murdered by Israel on the unpredictable "fog of war".

If she keeps this shit up I'll be going from optimistic to voting to Hillary to simply voting for her because I'm smart enough to know the alternative would be profoundly worse.

So why should she care about your opinion? I mean that seriously. You've described exactly why she takes these stances and why your complaints should be ignored by politicians.
 

Diablos

Member
So why should she care about your opinion? I mean that seriously. You've described exactly why she takes these stances and why your complaints should be ignored by politicians.
I never said she had to. And that's not the only reason why she takes those stances.
 
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thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
So why should she care about your opinion? I mean that seriously. You've described exactly why she takes these stances and why your complaints should be ignored by politicians.

Because not everyone's the type to be so involved with politics to talk about it every day on the internet, and while he maybe motivated to vote for the lesser of two evils, not everyone will be. A lowered motivation to vote from someone like him should make you wonder about the people that aren't super motivated to vote as it is. It's just the type of thing that adds to excuses like "one vote doesn't make a difference and I have something better to do anyway".

If there was a huge population of centrists out there, that'd be one thing, but in this increasingly polarized country, it seems to me there's a lot more to lose from disenfranchising the left than there is to gain in the center.

I guess we'll see as it gets closer to the election and people start caring enough to briefly remind themselves who Hillary actually is.
 
I just find it interesting that she's reverting back to the exact same behaviors that caused her to lose in 2008. Aura of inevitability/arrogance, doubling down on gaffes/mistakes (ie the ridiculous "we were broke when we left the WH" comment), and hawkish rhetoric. I'm not convinced Hillary would be as hawkish as claims but still, it's troubling.
 
Because not everyone's the type to be so involved with politics to talk about it every day on the internet, and while he maybe motivated to vote for the lesser of two evils, not everyone will be. A lowered motivation to vote from someone like him should make you wonder about the people that aren't super motivated to vote as it is. It's just the type of thing that adds to excuses like "one vote doesn't make a difference and I have something better to do anyway".

If there was a huge population of centrists out there, that'd be one thing, but in this increasingly polarized country, it seems to me there's a lot more to lose from disenfranchising the left than there is to gain in the center.

I guess we'll see as it gets closer to the election and people start caring enough to briefly remind themselves who Hillary actually is.
I was criticizing the 'I'll go from voting for her to voting for her'

The left in the US isn't as progressive as the internet is, at least not yet and especially not on foreign policy (don't mistake fatigue and isolationism as a rejection of the idealism of Bush's foreign policy). And she's not taken many 'centrist' positions as she is made out to have, if anything on the domestic front she's moved left from Clinton. She criticized Obamas foreign policy but why is this a shock? She was the one in 2008 defending her vote on Iraq, criticizing Obamas stance on talking with Iran and Cuba, and saying Obama can't 'lead' (3am anyone?). She's not changed on foreign policy. She's a continuation of the Clinton policy. Not in favor of large scale actions but wants a large US presence in any room.

She's also gotten burned by Obama with her major accomplishments (if you can call them that) getting slaughtered in the second term. Libya is still probably a success but good luck selling that, the Arab spring has been highjacked by the Syrian bloodshed, el sisi and Isis. The Russian reset has given way to a new cold war and we have no major break through with Iran.

Is it shocking she's distancing herself from that? She's giving herself room to say that was Obamas choice not mine while not rejecting the premise and major choices of Obama.
 

ISOM

Member
My concern is that this attack would leave us with a Republican president.

I may be the only one who think this but I believe republican positions will be so toxic in 2016 that a generic democratic candidate will be able to win the presidency. I really don't think we need a homerun to keep the whitehouse.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
I was criticizing the 'I'll go from voting for her to voting for her'

The left in the US isn't as progressive as the internet is, at least not yet and especially not on foreign policy (don't mistake fatigue and isolationism as a rejection of the idealism of Bush's foreign policy). And she's not taken many 'centrist' positions as she is made out to have, if anything on the domestic front she's moved left from Clinton. She criticized Obamas foreign policy but why is this a shock? She was the one in 2008 defending her vote on Iraq, criticizing Obamas stance on talking with Iran and Cuba, and saying Obama can't 'lead' (3am anyone?). She's not changed on foreign policy. She's a continuation of the Clinton policy. Not in favor of large scale actions but wants a large US presence in any room.

She's also gotten burned by Obama with her major accomplishments (if you can call them that) getting slaughtered in the second term. Libya is still probably a success but good luck selling that, the Arab spring has been highjacked by the Syrian bloodshed, el sisi and Isis. The Russian reset has given way to a new cold war and we have no major break through with Iran.

Is it shocking she's distancing herself from that? She's giving herself room to say that was Obamas choice not mine while not rejecting the premise and major choices of Obama.

Remember how Obama was taking a much stronger stance with Syria's chemical weapons until a huge public backlash forced him to take the softer position that he has now?

The general public may not care about drones, gitmo, and nsa like the internet does, but I really don't think they're looking for a more active approach to foreign affairs.
 
Remember how Obama was taking a much stronger stance with Syria's chemical weapons until a huge public backlash forced him to take the softer position that he has now?

The general public may not care about drones, gitmo, and nsa like the internet does, but I really don't think they're looking for a more active approach to foreign affairs.

They want an "active" approach but they don't want an active approach.

AKA they don't know what they want.

They like saying the US is losing its position in the world and in world affairs which they don't like and blame on Obama, but at the same time don't want any US boots anywhere. Which is exactly what Clinton is pretty much saying.
 
Clinton is making a mistake going out there so much this early. People might get tired of her by the time the actual election happens.
Yeah . . . she should really shut up. Why take positions on things right now when those positions could end up looking bad as events move forward. She should disappear for a while.
 
Since people absolutely hate me posting in this thread, if you aren't interested in the books I replied with earlier, especially the bolded one, these articles from the author will do about as much good as me continuing to shit up the thread and make everyone endlessly miserable no matter how much I enjoy our discussions.

http://www.cato-unbound.org/2013/03/04/michael-huemer/problem-authority
http://spot.colorado.edu/~huemer/1.htm

That first article is absolute garbage. I have no reservations about saying that. It's perpetuating the belief that the government is some evil entity behind a curtain taking your money and oppressing you. The social contract explaination he gives his disingenuous because he fails to mention the functions of government that benefit the average person; emergency services, utilities, road/utility maintenance, public schools, assistance programs, etc. His explaination exclussively mentions the "negatives" in most peoples minds; paying taxes and following laws you might not agree with.

This mentality is what has lead to people by and large hating Obamacare, but loving all the provisions within it. Obfuscating the functions of the Federal Government and applying negative connotations to all policy you disagree with is Right-Wing Rhetoric 101. Everything about that article is expertly worded with false dichotemies that the Extreme Right loves, comparing the government to criminal organizations being the biggest. My favorite was comparing how law enforcement might be necessary for a civilized society but;

But why must the government control what drugs you may put into your body, what wages you may pay your employees, how much wheat you may grow on your farm, and whether you buy health insurance?

Those things have nothing to do with his point. They are unrelated matters that have varying answers, but you can't easily state that, so his argument has the illusion of being stronger. The idea that the government is constantly overreaching and invading your lives. But lets focus on the real point of this article, anarcho-capitalism;

In this society, the services now provided by governmental police would instead be provided by competing protection agencies, hired either by individuals or by associations of property owners. Protection agencies, knowing that violence is the most expensive way of resolving disputes, would require their customers to seek peaceful resolutions of any disputes with other individuals.

HOLD THE PHONE. That sounds dangerously familiar. Let's see if I can remember;

In this case, the statist’s claim seems analogous to the leader of a protection racket claiming that his victims have voluntarily agreed to pay him protection money, merely by living in their own houses.

I see minimal difference between these two scenarios. Rather than a small portion of your pay being taken by a central agency for law enforcement and a judicial system, you pay into a business that is focused on profit margins and have them comepete against each other. It doesn't offer respite from being "coerced", it just trades passive coercion for active coercion. Coercion would still exist, it just wouldn't be as passive. You would basically have thugs come to your house over any dispute and either take your property (literally robbing you) or force you to pay them for similar protection and then they would side whichever side paid them more money, a substantially more corrupt system than we currently have.

people choose to hire protection agencies and arbitrators, signing actual, literal contracts with them

It's a false choice though. If you don't hire those protection agencies people will do whatever they want to you. As it stands right now all American citizens are bound by the law of the country, and the police and court have an obligation to resolve disputes fairly (obviously having a better lawyer helps in the current system, but it's nowhere near as open to corruption).

EDIT: Finally, there's his analogy comparing the government to a corporation. The difference between a government and a corporation is the fact that corporations are driven by profits and revenue, and the people at the top making decisions get a cut of all the revenue. If the US were running a budget surplus Obama wouldn't get a fat paycheck. What this inevitably leads to is corporations caring more about doing anything possible to increase profits, things such as cutting the work force, relocating facilities to other countries, and cleaver uses of the tax code. The US Government has no such focus. The focus of the government is to provide the best opportunities and service to the citizens of the United States. This is also why the "run government as a business" analogy is so horrible and mislreading. If we ran the United States like a business we would have sold large swaths of the country for underperforming (looking at you Mississippi and Alabama).
 

Ecotic

Member
Honestly my biggest concern with Hillary is that she'll be so bad as President that Democrats will one day wish that she hadn't won, just to avoid a tarnished brand. This is a woman who got to where she is through no personal merit or accomplishment, which wouldn't necessarily have to be a bad thing if she wasn't terrible at everything. She's got bad instincts, bad judgment, and lost any idealism a long time ago. She'll find some way to fail. Please, someone else, anyone else.
 

Servizio

I don't really need a tag, but I figured I'd get one to make people jealous. Is it working?
If Hillary implodes and we end up with Cuomo, I'll vote for the random hippie candidate in the Green Party.

1z521kQ.gif
 

alstein

Member
Honestly my biggest concern with Hillary is that she'll be so bad as President that Democrats will one day wish that she hadn't won, just to avoid a tarnished brand. This is a woman who got to where she is through no personal merit or accomplishment, which wouldn't necessarily have to be a bad thing if she wasn't terrible at everything. She's got bad instincts, bad judgment, and lost any idealism a long time ago. She'll find some way to fail. Please, someone else, anyone else.

Or you let the Republican win in 2016, have him screw up so bad you get a landslide in 2020. I almost would rather have the Republican win than Hillary, just because I think the economy is going to crash again at the end of the decade.
 
Oh, so we're speculating about 2016 again? Honestly, Iraqi politics are looking a lot more interesting than US politics at the moment... Any impressions of Haider al-Abadi's style as a politician, besides him being someone other than Maliki?
 
Oh, so we're speculating about 2016 again? Honestly, Iraqi politics are looking a lot more interesting than US politics at the moment... Any impressions of Haider al-Abadi's style as a politician, besides him being someone other than Maliki?
obviously he is planning to fix the country right with inclusion politics, hence the shitstorm from maliki and his zealots.
 
Anyone else not surprised that Obama is leading from behind with the police brutality/murder cases?

"but what can Obama do"

1. Send in the feds to clean up the trash
2. Stop militarizing policy
3. Use homeland security infinite funds for cameras on cops

Instead, silence.
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
Heard on NPR Hillary is distancing herself from Obama admin FP.

If only she had been in a position to help direct this administrations foreign policy effort in a better direction.

Maybe a cabinet position of some sort, I don't know for sure.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Haven't been impressed with Hillary and these interviews of hers. Her foreign policy is especially worrying. :/

She's just following the poll numbers. For the life of me I can't understand why she's getting involved in all of this so soon? She doesn't need to start running for about a year and a half.
 
Heard on NPR Hillary is distancing herself from Obama admin FP.

If only she had been in a position to help direct this administrations foreign policy effort in a better direction.

Maybe a cabinet position of some sort, I don't know for sure.

Its a shame she never ran for office. Someone like her in the Senate would be a real game-changer.
 
Anyone else not surprised that Obama is leading from behind with the police brutality/murder cases?

"but what can Obama do"

1. Send in the feds to clean up the trash
2. Stop militarizing policy
3. Use homeland security infinite funds for cameras on cops

Instead, silence.

I'm not sure if another Beer Summit would accomplish anything.
 

ICKE

Banned
Heard on NPR Hillary is distancing herself from Obama admin FP.

This is wise as Obama's foreign policy stances are crumbling at the moment. Eight months ago he said (regarding ISIS being a threat like Al Qaeda was) :

"“The analogy we use around here sometimes, and I think it is accurate, is if a jayvee team puts on Lakers uniforms that doesn’t make them Kobe Bryant,”

The reality is of course that Obama doesn't have a lot to work with. For example, Russia might or might not strengthen their influence within Eastern-Ukraine, there is nothing he can do about it. But politically it would be disastrous after his debate with Romney, that little talk with Medvedev and so on. The irony is that those quotes are completely irrelevant looking at the big picture but they could really tarnish his legacy.
 

Wilsongt

Member
Oh look, the GOP out of touch with reality? You don't say.

fields1.png

.@DJDanielson @ellencanderson Yes! Bcuz real ppl who dont have millions are crushed by the policies of guilt ridden celebrity above all libs

— chris fields (@ChrisFieldsMN) August 12, 2014

He got the smack down, thankfully:

Kevin Watterson @kwatt
Follow

@chrisfieldsmn Shut. The fuck. Up.
8:31 PM - 11 Aug 2014
 

Crisco

Banned
This is wise as Obama's foreign policy stances are crumbling at the moment. Eight months ago he said (regarding ISIS being a threat like Al Qaeda was) :

"“The analogy we use around here sometimes, and I think it is accurate, is if a jayvee team puts on Lakers uniforms that doesn’t make them Kobe Bryant,”

The reality is of course that Obama doesn't have a lot to work with. For example, Russia might or might not strengthen their influence within Eastern-Ukraine, there is nothing he can do about it. But politically it would be disastrous after his debate with Romney, that little talk with Medvedev and so on. The irony is that those quotes are completely irrelevant looking at the big picture but they could really tarnish his legacy.

He's still not wrong though, ISIS is a regional problem, and they've shown zero capability of conducting operations outside of Syria/Iraq. People need to get over this idea that claiming large swaths of undefended territory makes them the Borg. From the US and Obama's perspective, we probably see ISIS as leverage to help secularize Iraq's government and draw concessions from Iran or Syria. No one at the FBI is losing sleep over ISIS.
 
Obama's foreign policy has been quite poor but anyone who thinks arming a ragtag group of rebels would stop Assad is indeed delusional. This really reminds me of 2011 when everyone was calling for a "no fly zone" in Libya, which would have done absolutely nothing to stop Qadaffi's tanks. There's always a clamor to support meaningless foreign policy positions that make you look "strong" while actually not doing anything.

BTW Hillary called Obama to apologize today and say she wasn't criticizing his policies. The Clintons don't know when to stop digging. I'd imagine the next step is a selfie with Obama tomorrow when they meet.
 

Crisco

Banned
Obama's foreign policy has been quite poor but anyone who thinks arming a ragtag group of rebels would stop Assad is indeed delusional. This really reminds me of 2011 when everyone was calling for a "no fly zone" in Libya, which would have done absolutely nothing to stop Qadaffi's tanks. There's always a clamor to support meaningless foreign policy positions that make you look "strong" while actually not doing anything.

BTW Hillary called Obama to apologize today and say she wasn't criticizing his policies. The Clintons don't know when to stop digging. I'd imagine the next step is a selfie with Obama tomorrow when they meet.

Or that not arming them somehow led to the rise of ISIS. People really don't understand that there is almost no "positive" action we can take in the ME that won't lead to an almost equally negative reaction elsewhere. The best thing that we or any western nation can do there is back the fuck off and let them settle their own problems.

But unfortunately Obama didn't have that choice. He inherited decades of US military involvement in the region which wasn't going to be cleaned up in 4 or 8 years. He inherited a relationship with Israel that is politically untouchable. He inherited a militant Jihadist problem that could not be solved by simply covering your eyes and ears and going "lalalalalalalala". From day one he's been walking a tightrope of just enough involvement to keep things from completely collapsing while dramatically limiting our liability in the region. While the outcomes have been poor, blaming that on Obama's work in the region seems shortsighted.
 

Averon

Member
Seeing these Neo-con warmongers on the TV everyday for the past several weeks as if they are some authority on FP is infuriating. People completely forgot these are many of the same people who go us in Iraq, was wrong on every fact about Iraq post invasion, and would keep us in Iraq and Afghanistan indefinitely if they had it their way. We would also be at war with Syria, too. We are so in love with the romantic notion of "America Strong Worldwide!!!" that we're now listening to the same liars and incompetents that got us into Iraq.
Why are we listening to these clowns again? Incredible.

And why the hell is Clinton helping attack Obama using neo-con talking points? Even if she does believes what she says, why stake out a position years in advance when the situation can change? Hilary seems to have learned nothing from the 2008 primaries. I'm quickly souring on a possible Hilary presidency.
 
Basically. Speaking of Warren, I would love to see her run. Would be interesting to see an actual Liberal nominated by the Democratic Party.

I'd rather have Warren in the Senate for the next eighteen years pushing liberal economic policy than a failed Presidential run, or if she somehow becomes President, having to deal with the craziness of foreign policy like Obama has.

Again, if you want a liberal President, elect a liberal Senate and a liberal Congress.
 
I'd rather have Warren in the Senate for the next eighteen years pushing liberal economic policy than a failed Presidential run, or if she somehow becomes President, having to deal with the craziness of foreign policy like Obama has.

Again, if you want a liberal President, elect a liberal Senate and a liberal Congress.

.
 
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thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
I'd rather have Warren in the Senate for the next eighteen years pushing liberal economic policy than a failed Presidential run, or if she somehow becomes President, having to deal with the craziness of foreign policy like Obama has.

Again, if you want a liberal President, elect a liberal Senate and a liberal Congress.
She can both have a failed presidential run and remain a senator with a voice. You think the losers of the republican primary are just going to go away if they lose? Did John McCain just go away when he lost the 2000 primary?

Honestly, even a failed presidential run tends to elevate your status quite a bit just by firmly establishing yourself as a national figure.

As for not wanting to have her deal with the craziness of foreign policy, I'm not sure exactly what point you are trying to make.
 

120v

Member
Gore was immensely popular in the mid 2000s. many thought it was given he'd run in 08... it's just that people are dumb and after about a decade they're like HOW BOUT THAT GLOBAL WARMING NOW LOL

but yeah presidential elections elevate you.. to varying degrees. paul ryan for example isn't much more popular than before he was on the ticket
 
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