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PoliGAF 2017 |OT3| 13 Treasons Why

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That's not that long ago.

Look, I'm not losing sleep over who Trump chooses to tweet about. Because if it's not Hillary, it's Obama.

It is that long ago in the context of today!

I don't want to give him an excuse to talk about Hillary, because she's a divisive figure and it riles up his base and the more we talk about Hillary, the more scared I am that he can whip his voters into a frenzy and lose key special elections! I want his base to be as dejected as ours was in 2010.

I don't want to talk about Hillary fucking Clinton when we're trying to win seats back.

It makes him look more sympathetic for bringing it up if Hillary does first vs bringing it up for unprovoked non legitimate "im totally insecure", petty reasons.

I think if she wants to litigate this it's probably better to wait till trump is out because talking about this is like all he has

That too.
 
Him talking about Hillary is likely a good thing for us and a bad thing for his numbers. I can't think of a time when a President has successfully pushed people against former Presidents/opponents. Most Americans have a really simple idea of how gov't works, and since we're R/R/R right now, I'd guess well over 80% of the public thinks that there's nothing stopping Trump from just passing like 20 bills on all of his campaign promises tomorrow by lunch.

Talking and not doing never works. Talking and doing doesn't even work, even if you're right! Obama gained dick from talking about Bush causing issues in his first two years because basically everyone in the country would think "Yeah, but he's not around anymore so why are you mentioning this?"

Let him tweet. Anyone that finds that soothing to their approval of Trump was probably already in the approve column anyway.
 

royalan

Member
It is that long ago in the context of today!

I don't want to give him an excuse to talk about Hillary, because she's a divisive figure and it riles up his base and the more we talk about Hillary, the more scared I am that he can whip his voters into a frenzy and lose key special elections! I want his base to be as dejected as ours was in 2010.

I don't want to talk about Hillary fucking Clinton when we're trying to win seats back.



That too.

You do realize that Obama is every bit as divisive as Hillary is for the base he's talking to, right?

So if your fear is him rallying the right, you should want both of them to go away.
 

Ogodei

Member
I mean, on election night we were expecting it to be about whether we took back the Senate, not whether we took the WH. Dem president would have probably meant at least a bit of a dem swing in congress. If anything, congress would have reversed and gone back to being more red in 2018 like it usually does. This would probably be the case with Clinton too. And while it would be tough for a dem president to get anything done, it wouldn't necessarily cost them reelection.

2018 would've been an all-time slaughter of the Democrats had Clinton won, GOP getting a cloture supermajority bad.
 

Diablos

Member
Watching the video from the 25th of Obama speaking in Germany. This guy is for the ages.

I hope he does something big. Something really big, that is global, that no one has ever really done before. It sounds so cheesy but the world needs this guy.
 
You do realize that Obama is every bit as divisive as Hillary is for the base he's talking to, right?

So if your fear is him rallying the right, you should want both of them to go away.

Except that there were Trump voters who voted for Obama, so this is very incorrect?
 

kirblar

Member
Him talking about Hillary is likely a good thing for us and a bad thing for his numbers. I can't think of a time when a President has successfully pushed people against former Presidents/opponents. Most Americans have a really simple idea of how gov't works, and since we're R/R/R right now, I'd guess well over 80% of the public thinks that there's nothing stopping Trump from just passing like 20 bills on all of his campaign promises tomorrow by lunch.

Talking and not doing never works. Talking and doing doesn't even work, even if you're right! Obama gained dick from talking about Bush causing issues in his first two years because basically everyone in the country would think "Yeah, but he's not around anymore so why are you mentioning this?"

Let him tweet. Anyone that finds that soothing to their approval of Trump was probably already in the approve column anyway.
Yup. The pendulum was reset. People know that he's in charge, the news is relentlessly negative, and that he's not getting anything done.

We don't have to flip his base, we have to flip the soft ones and the sitouts, and get our voters off their asses. And thanks to having a unifying evil figure to oppose, that's going to happen, we just need to help make sure that happens to the degree it needs to in order to flip the house.

Hillary giving random talks that get amplified because of Bitch Eating Crackers Syndrome isn't going to change that.
 
Controlling college costs and quality is a better goal than free college.

Also does the Resistance assume never retaking power. Does it disband when the WH is won.

This is a resistance. I resist.
 
You do realize that Obama is every bit as divisive as Hillary is for the base he's talking to, right?

So if your fear is him rallying the right, you should want both of them to go away.

As amazing as it is to say, this isn't actually true. Significant parts of the "Trump coalition" voted for Obama. Twice even.
 

royalan

Member
Except that there were Trump voters who voted for Obama, so this is very incorrect?

...You can't be serious.

So because there is a minute percentage of Obama voters who flipped Trump, Obama is no longer the boogieman Republicans spent years turning him into?

So the average Republican no longer believes Obama bugged Trump Tower?


You're not even trying anymore.
 
...You can't be serious.

So because there is a minute percentage of Obama voters who flipped Trump, Obama is no longer the boogieman Republicans spent years turning him into?

So the average Republican no longer believes Obama bugged Trump Tower?


You're not even trying anymore.

???

Hillary is less popular than Obama

There are members of Obama's coalition that hate Hillary and voted for Trump

We need some of those voters to win in 2020

This is not controversial. I don't know what it is besides blind deference to a political loser who needs to go home and realize her skills are better used behind the scenes raising money.

Oh my god we're going to lose in 2020
 
It is not a good thing when you think every criticism of Hillary is about a bitch eating crackers.

I can't tell if this is a typo and you didn't mean to state this as a question, but I'd classify "she should just shut up and become a recluse" as something that makes me uncomfortable about how the person saying it feels about women as I don't really think this conversation happens if she was a man.

People talk all the time about how she ran her campaign or specific policies. Those criticisms don't seem gendered but this one does.
 

kirblar

Member
Controlling college costs and quality is a better goal than free college.

Also does the Resistance assume never retaking power. Does it disband when the WH is won.

This is a resistance. I resist.
It disbands the moment a Dem gets a DDD setup because that's what always happens, yeah.

And on free college: Lessons from the end of free college in England
Earlier this month, New York became the first U.S. state to offer all but its wealthiest residents free tuition not only at its public community colleges, but also at public four-year institutions in the state. The new program, called the Excelsior Scholarship, doesn’t make college completely free, nor is it without significant restrictions.[1] Still, the passage of this legislation demonstrates the growing strength of the free college movement in the United States.

The free college movement in the U.S. is typically associated with liberal and progressive politics and motivated by concerns about rising inequality and declining investments in public goods like education. Americans are thus sometimes surprised to hear the story of the end of free college in England, in which progressives built upon very similar motivations to move policy in the complete opposite direction.
Though it is impossible to know how trends would have evolved absent the 1998 reforms, we show that at a minimum, ending free college in England has not stood in the way of rising enrollments, and institutional resources per student (one measure of quality) have increased substantially since 1998. Moreover, after many years of widening inequality, socioeconomic gaps in college attainment appear to have stabilized or slightly declined.

The English experience thus suggests that making college free is hardly the only way to increase quantity, quality, and equity in higher education. Indeed, the story we tell here shows how a free system can eventually stand in the way of these goals. Rather than looking to emulate the English model of the 1990s, the U.S. might instead consider emulating some key features of the modern English system that have helped moderate the impact of rising tuition, such as deferring all tuition fees until after graduation, increasing liquidity available to students to cover living expenses, and automatically enrolling all graduates in an income-contingent loan repayment system that minimizes both paperwork hassle and the risk of default.
 
Except that there were Trump voters who voted for Obama, so this is very incorrect?

Trayvon Martin, Ferguson, BLM, Sandy Hook, etc, etc... happened after he was re-elected. Those are some important things that can create some heavy, heavy shifts, no? Hillary didn't shy away from any of it.

He's also, you know, a man.
 
...You can't be serious.

So because there is a minute percentage of Obama voters who flipped Trump, Obama is no longer the boogieman Republicans spent years turning him into?

So the average Republican no longer believes Obama bugged Trump Tower?


You're not even trying anymore.

Minute percentage? Look at an electoral map man. Or some of the post election analyses.

He's also, you know, a man.
And he's still one last I checked.
 
I can't tell if this is a typo and you didn't mean to state this as a question, but I'd classify "she should just shut up and become a recluse" as something that makes me uncomfortable about how the person saying it feels about women as I don't really think this conversation happens if she was a man.

People talk all the time about how she ran her campaign or specific policies. Those criticisms don't seem gendered but this one does.

I feel very comfortable saying the most divisive political loser of our time should shut up about all the reasons she lost the election besides her own failings.
 

royalan

Member
???

Hillary is less popular than Obama

There are members of Obama's coalition that hate Hillary and voted for Trump

We need some of those voters to win in 2020

This is not controversial. I don't know what it is besides blind deference to a political loser who needs to go home and realize her skills are better used behind the scenes raising money.

Oh my god we're going to lose in 2020

That doesn't matter. Now you're just arguing degrees.

Obama is a political figure the right can and has used to rally their base, and to great effect. I'm not saying Hillary isn't more disliked; I'm saying that won't matter when it comes time for Republicans to need a scapegoat. So what does it matter if Hillary gives an interview and Trump tweets about it? Hillary going away doesn't rob Republicans of their toolset.
 
I feel very comfortable saying the most divisive political loser of our time should shut up about all the reasons she lost the election besides her own failings.

And again, the forcefulness of this has me thinking more and more about what if she was a man. Because again, I do not think you'd be telling a dude to fuck off like this.
 
That doesn't matter. Now you're just arguing degrees.

Obama is a political figure the right can and has used to rally their base, and to great effect. I'm not saying Hillary isn't more disliked; I'm saying that won't matter when it comes time for Republicans to need a scapegoat. So what does it matter if Hillary gives an interview and Trump tweets about it? Hillary going away doesn't rob Republicans of their toolset.

Yes it does! We need to win back the voters -- many, not minute -- who hated her but voted for Obama.

We don't need this divisive loser to keep talking about why she lost and allowing Trump, his spokespeople, the Republican apparatus to make this about Hillary. Because if it is, we will lose those states again and solidify those people as Republican voters.
 
And again, the forcefulness of this has me thinking more and more about what if she was a man. Because again, I do not think you'd be telling a dude to fuck off like this.

That's kind of a messed up place to jump to about another gaffer considering I know I expressed similar thoughts about Gore and Kerry in the past. (Though I don't have a particular problem with Hillary's recent comments)
 

royalan

Member
Yes it does! We need to win back the voters -- many, not minute -- who hated her but voted for Obama.

We don't need this divisive loser to keep talking about why she lost and allowing Trump, his spokespeople, the Republican apparatus to make this about Hillary. Because if it is, we will lose those states again and solidify those people as Republican voters.

Hillary doesn't need to do anything for Republicans to make it about Hillary.
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
Why are we still talking about Hillary and not the administration giving the Russians their diplomatic properties back.
 
That's kind of a messed up place to jump to about another gaffer considering I know I expressed similar thoughts about Gore and Kerry in the past. (Though I don't have a particular problem with Hillary's recent comments)

I would still find those comments to be over the line, though it does make sexism a less likely factor.

As for "another gaffer" I've seen some pretty bad statements here!
 
I think it's a rehash of previous discussions but the Obama that ran in 08 and even 12 is not the same as 2017 Obama wrt the public discourse on racial issues. The "oh they voted for Obama" he isn't divisive to them argument ignores that times change.
 

kirblar

Member
Yes it does! We need to win back the voters -- many, not minute -- who hated her but voted for Obama.

We don't need this divisive loser to keep talking about why she lost and allowing Trump, his spokespeople, the Republican apparatus to make this about Hillary. Because if it is, we will lose those states again and solidify those people as Republican voters.
I used to think that conservatives in the '90s had Clinton Derangement Syndrome.

This is one of the reasons I voted for Obama in '08.

Then I saw how they treated Obama.

It doesn't matter who or what it is. That 40% core will hate them with the fury of a thousand burning suns.

Thankfully, they are not swing voters. And attempts from the GOP party to deflect this to make it about Hillary aren't going to work to the degree they need to, regardless of what Hillary does or doesn't do. Trump is pulling a Jimmy Carter and is going to blow up the GOP through inaction.
I think it's a rehash of previous discussions but the Obama that ran in 08 and even 12 is not the same as 2017 Obama wrt the public discourse on racial issues. The "oh they voted for Obama" he isn't divisive to them argument ignores that times change.
Yup, white identity politics have redefined the GOP. The battle lines are changing, we can't stay still or we will fail. (Thankfully, we're not doing that.)
 
From OT:

DBMjhz5XkAAMfns.jpg


And now we have the story about the embassies from the WaPo.
 

dakini

Member
So I read the comments on the TYT interview videos with Warren and uh... I guess I didn't realized their veiwership dislikes her now.
 
I think it's a rehash of previous discussions but the Obama that ran in 08 and even 12 is not the same as 2017 Obama wrt the public discourse on racial issues. The "oh they voted for Obama" he isn't divisive to them argument ignores that times change.

I mean, he's extremely popular, more so than when he ran for reelection in 2012, so it's more complicated than that.
 
You do realize that Obama is every bit as divisive as Hillary is for the base he's talking to, right?

So if your fear is him rallying the right, you should want both of them to go away.

What are you talking about?

Obama left office at 55% approval while Hillary has been at around 35% approval for months.
 
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