-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
PoliGAF 2017 |OT3| 13 Treasons Why
- Thread starter RustyNails
- Start date
- Status
Acknowledging the role sexism plays in our politics is not "propping up" bad women.
Well, I guess we're going to have to have the president come to Congress and testify under oath to solve this riddle.
I'm sure he'll go about seeing how right he was about firing Comey because he was a L👏 E 👏 A 👏 K👏 E 👏 R
I await the IC going "bitch,'please" and going ham again.
BoogieWoogie
Banned
I fully expect big oppo today. Most likely that Trump is now being personally investigated.
BoogieWoogie
Banned
Oh my God, Ossoff's ahead by 7!!!
http://politics.blog.ajc.com/2017/06/09/ajc-poll-ossoff-opens-lead-over-handel-in-georgias-6th/
http://politics.blog.ajc.com/2017/06/09/ajc-poll-ossoff-opens-lead-over-handel-in-georgias-6th/
And thank god we have Gen. Clapper's statement under oath that "unclassified isn't leaking"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBgToPDp9wU
Why even mention Le Pen? The point can be made without her.
May is nowhere close to Le Pen but after a terror attack she basically said "fuck human rights!". Am I supposed to be sad her election plans backfired on her? I don't doubt some of the language that is being used against her is inappropriately sexually/gender charged and that is straight up bad and should be called out. But again I'm not going to feel bad for her because she's like legit bad in many ways.
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
It's not about whether they are good or bad, it is acknowledging that good or bad, women in politics have an extra weight to carry.
I want to be happy about a revitalized left. Then I look at the folks who rep it in the US.
Jacobin and Intercept, Adam Johnson, TYT, Nina Turner, Cornel West, etc, nevermind Bernie.
And I just think, "I want a better left". One that can actually engage the base.
I want to be happy about a revitalized left. Then I look at the folks who rep it in the US.
Jacobin and Intercept, Adam Johnson, TYT, Nina Turner, Cornel West, etc, nevermind Bernie.
And I just think, "I want a better left". One that can actually engage the base.
I'm perplexed by how the country that had a woman as its longest serving prime minister, who six weeks ago had a female leader as its highest rated party leader *ever*, who still voted in large numbers to elect female leaders in northern ireland, scotland and wales, somehow has an underlying sexism issue.
Maybe it was her terrible polices, awful record, cowardice and inability to actually sell a vision for the country that hurt her?
I also think lumping May in with LePen in an attempt to argue a point about sexism is frankly disgraceful. I don't like Theresa May, but she isn't a fucking Nazi and you belittle the entire (valuable!) conversation about the difficulties women face in politics by pretending that is a factor.
I think the response to May and Le Pen has more to do with rejecting much of their ideology especially in a Brexit and Trump world. Hillary on the other hand, sure, she suffered a lot from sexist males who cringe at the thought of a woman in charge of anything. But she also had like 3 decades of manufactured scandals and a tone deaf campaign doing her a great disservice too. Oh and an FBI investigation which reared its ugly head in the final days of the campaign.
That they're all women is a coincidence honestly. Hillary is certainly not the same kind of person personally or ideologically speaking.
As for the AHCA I think it's going to pass. When Heller, Cassidy and Capito are all of the sudden receptive to changes it's all but over.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Nice to wake up to some sanity returning to the world. I was getting worried about the UK, for awhile there they seemed to be on an even faster track to chaos than we are
Poodlestrike
Banned
From what I'm hearing about DUP this might be a lateral move. If not a turn for the worse.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Looks to me like an ineffective government that doesn't do anything until the next election when Labour finally hits the killing blow and fully takes over.
But I don't really know much about UK politics, just seemed to be the feeling in the election thread.
ShadowSwordmaster
Banned
I highly doubt we will get a "better left" in the US.
https://twitter.com/SenateDems/status/873001941521108992
Claire McCaskill asked about AHCA.
Watch it.
Claire McCaskill asked about AHCA.
Watch it.
The DUP have stopped the NI assembly from functioning since the election in March. This agreement won't last the year.
shinra-bansho
Member
It's still an interesting discussion with regard to May. Her pitch was "strong and stable" both having gender association with regard to leadership. The way in which May acts to try and present these are probably more punished as a woman.
But also she was just a bit shit.
Also lol Nina Turner.
But also she was just a bit shit.
Also lol Nina Turner.
The strongest leader in living memory was a woman. Even labour supporters would agree on that - Maggie utterly dominated politics for her period as PM in a way not even Blair managed.
I don't think it's a case of stanning for May or LePen. I'm pointing out that they're all women, and in modern society, women have disadvantages, regardless of their ideology or not.
Suppose a woman did what Jeremy Corbyn did within the Labour Party and clung to power regardless of criticism. He was attacked for incompetence and ineptitude, but a woman in his place would be vilified for being a power-hungry bitch. She wouldn't be recognized for her policies or positions, but for her audacity to be ambitious.
I'm not asking you to feel bad that sexism might have kept a Nazi from being president of France. In the context of my suggestion, people have already jumped to conclusions about what the UK election should apparently mean for US elections, and what kind of strategy we should have going forward, when obviously there are a myriad of other possible reasons for why voters realigned in UK (not only to Labour but also the weird movements to Tory), as well as the tacit understanding that the US and the UK do differ in many areas.
I threw out the sexism argument because most men tend to dismiss the gender argument almost instantly. But obviously, sexism is always present when a female is present amidst a bunch of males. My suggestion is, if people are going to be the first in line to dismiss gender, then they might also have to reconsider their other assumptions.
But I don't expect they will, so I suppose this whole argument is moot.
With sexism, my observation on GAF is that guys tend to downplay gender dynamics. A lot. GAF is male-dominated, and men have different priorities. If we did a hypothetical election where the choice is between a female Nazi and a rapist male, I expect that GAF would lean towards the male, because GAF can be male and minority but not female. There would be excuses of all sorts for the male, while the female would be demonized. The female doesn't even have to be a Nazi for guys to prefer the rapist male; I remember ryotaromama (?) being very enamored of Clinton but hating Hillary's guts for his projecting of her thinking "it's her turn".
And sexism is bad regardless of whether or not the woman is good or bad. Making that exemption is kind of justifying the position that white people have about black people: only willing to help "the good ones".
shinra-bansho
Member
I mean Thatcher underwent voice coaching to be taken seriously. She had to balance being acceptably "ladylike" but not so much of a lady that the concept of her being powerful was at odds. She was also reviled but that's presumably as much policy as personality.
This should be a thread. This is ridiculous.
Thatcher was reviled by the left, absolutely. She was adored by the centre and right, and that's how she won all those elections. Large elements of the country still love her today. It's an unfortunate side effect of the internet that people get a mistaken impression on how she's currently regarded - the Daily Mail were worshipping her only a few weeks ago.
Re. voice coaching - so did the former King of Britain and Ed Miliband. She had a bad voice.
This is hard to say for sure. I get where you're coming from, but I don't think you can draw inferences that the amount of sexism in the US, UK and France is equal. It may be in your example she would be called a power-hungry bitch, but considering even Theresa May wasn't particularly attacked for being power hungry and a woman even with the call to crack down on internet freedoms, I'm not sure I can buy your argument.
I think generalising here (specifically, PoliGAF) and the wider world is unwise. Whilst sexism is continually downplayed with regards to Hillary's loss and treatment in the media, it's also consistently called out in this thread.
Whilst the sexist dicks on Gaf are obvious, the US essentially had your example election - Trump raped his first wife, and sexually assaulted others. Hillary, meanwhile, was called many things by the Right - and it seems most of Gaf came out against Trump, even if they didn't like Hillary.
I always took people's problems with Hillary and "her turn" to be an attack entirely on the political establishment, and not in any way something to do with gender. You could argue Bernie's skill was in making people think he wasn't power-mad and establishment, even though he had been involved in politics longer than Hillary.
Sexism and ideology are hard to unravel when you get into the more right-wing politics, I think. For instance, Le Pen seemed to have less attacks against her femininity than Hillary - that is, Hillary is softer and more left wing, but seemed to have more shit flung at her regarding her "cold and calculating" demeanor. But then, as has been pointed out before, using Hillary in any example is debatable, because of the narrative written against her for the past 25 years by the GOP. And, unfortunately, comparing May and Le Pen doesn't really help, since they're both right-wing career politicians, with a somewhat-shared ideology - there's no contrast there.
shinra-bansho
Member
He had a physiological speech disorder. :/
She had a "shrill" voice. :/
ShadowSwordmaster
Banned
This is so fucked.
AntraxSuicide
Banned
I don't mean to imply you're downplaying social issues.
The second paragraph here is accurate but those targets were the goal. No one is touching Obama on his numbers with people of color and the Clinton campaign knew that and planned for it. They planned on smaller turnout there. Their issue was assuming turnout in other demographics that wasn't there.
So a Democrat can absolutely do much worse with black people, Hispanic people, or LGBT people.
BobTheFork
Member
Can't at the moment. What's up?
"Hey Jim, this is Barry."
"H-hello Mr. President."
"Look, I want to talk about Hillary Clinton. She's been through a lot. I hope you can see your way clear to letting this go, to letting Hillary go. She is a good person. I hope you can let this go."
"She ... is a good person."
Three months later, President Obama fires FBI director Comey.
"What prompted you to fire the FBI director? In this letter it says you accepted the recommendation of the deputy attorney general ..."
"True, Lester, he had made a recommendation. But regardless of recommendation, I was going to fire Comey knowing there was no good time to do it. And in fact, when I decided to just do it, I said to myself -- I said, you know, this email thing with Hillary and her server is a made-up story. It's an excuse for the Republicans to slander her."
I just fired the head of the FBI. He was crazy, a real nut job, Debbie. We faced great pressure because of the email server. That's taken off.
Ryan denies GOP would try to impeach Dem accused of same actions as Trump
"H-hello Mr. President."
"Look, I want to talk about Hillary Clinton. She's been through a lot. I hope you can see your way clear to letting this go, to letting Hillary go. She is a good person. I hope you can let this go."
"She ... is a good person."
Three months later, President Obama fires FBI director Comey.
"What prompted you to fire the FBI director? In this letter it says you accepted the recommendation of the deputy attorney general ..."
"True, Lester, he had made a recommendation. But regardless of recommendation, I was going to fire Comey knowing there was no good time to do it. And in fact, when I decided to just do it, I said to myself -- I said, you know, this email thing with Hillary and her server is a made-up story. It's an excuse for the Republicans to slander her."
I just fired the head of the FBI. He was crazy, a real nut job, Debbie. We faced great pressure because of the email server. That's taken off.
Ryan denies GOP would try to impeach Dem accused of same actions as Trump
McCaskill asks if the Republicans are planning to hold a hearing on AHCA. Hatch blathers on before an aide whispers into his ear and he starts to lie. McCaskill then chews him out for that crap.
It must be seen.
(If someone wants to make a thread, go right ahead.)
I mean your argument might have been better made in the UK Election thread because nobody right now in here (though obviously this was/is an issue when Clinton herself is a subject here) is dismissing the role of gender in politics. Your post seems out of the blue otherwise and isn't telling anyone right now anything they don't already know? Like I sympathize with you. You've been beating this drum for months and its a good drum to beat because you are totally correct. It's just hard for me to care too much that sexism might have hurt May and Le Pen (especially the later, its still weird they are both in this conversation at the same time) because they are actually awful people. I don't care that it would likely be tough for Ben Carson to ever win the Republican nomination due to racism because he is also a terrible person. I would care if a non-terrible (as if with the current GOP LOL) woman/minority was denied a nomination in that party solely due to their race/gender though.
The leaders of the Scottish Conservatives, Scottish Labour, Scottish National Party, Democratic Unionist Party, Plaid Cymru, and NI Sinn Fein are currently lead by women, so it's not like the UK is devoid of popular leadership on that front. Of course, England is the exception, but female participation increased in this parliament.
balladofwindfishes
Member
So are these people like our Tea Party, or are they actually like proper nazis?
Roland_Gunner
Member
They're like hard right religious Republicans. No gay marriage, no abortion even in case of rape or incest, wink at climate change denialism, etc. Oh and they only allow very limited business hours on Sunday since its the Lord's day.
smokeymicpot
Beat EviLore at pool.
Muller getting more people together.
http://www.nationallawjournal.com/i...obe?cmp=share_twitter&slreturn=20170509102445
Mueller Enlists Top Criminal Law Expert for Russia Probe
Deputy solicitor general Michael Dreeben, who has argued more than 100 cases before the U.S. Supreme Court and oversees the Justice Departments criminal appellate docket, will be assisting Mueller on a part-time basis, according to sources familiar with the arrangement.
While helping Mueller, Dreeben will continue in his role in the solicitor generals office, with other lawyers in the office pitching in to help him with upcoming criminal cases.
The move signals that Mueller is seeking advice on the complexities that have arisen already in the investigations, including what constitutes obstruction of justice.
"Michael Dreeben is to criminal law what Robert Mueller is to investigations, former acting Solicitor General Neal Katyal said Thursday night. Literally the very best. Yet another sign of how serious Mueller is about this matter." Now a partner at Hogan Lovells, Katyal has been a key figure in challenging President Donald Trumps travel ban.
http://www.nationallawjournal.com/i...obe?cmp=share_twitter&slreturn=20170509102445
Mueller Enlists Top Criminal Law Expert for Russia Probe
Deputy solicitor general Michael Dreeben, who has argued more than 100 cases before the U.S. Supreme Court and oversees the Justice Departments criminal appellate docket, will be assisting Mueller on a part-time basis, according to sources familiar with the arrangement.
While helping Mueller, Dreeben will continue in his role in the solicitor generals office, with other lawyers in the office pitching in to help him with upcoming criminal cases.
The move signals that Mueller is seeking advice on the complexities that have arisen already in the investigations, including what constitutes obstruction of justice.
"Michael Dreeben is to criminal law what Robert Mueller is to investigations, former acting Solicitor General Neal Katyal said Thursday night. Literally the very best. Yet another sign of how serious Mueller is about this matter." Now a partner at Hogan Lovells, Katyal has been a key figure in challenging President Donald Trumps travel ban.
RustyNails
Member
God I hope Mueller presents his final results in October 2018.
smokeymicpot
Beat EviLore at pool.
I honestly see this ending by the Summer. I know it sounds crazy but the FBI was probably far enough along.
A year is a pretty short time for this kind of investigation.
ShadowSwordmaster
Banned
I think we got at least a year or two more left.
balladofwindfishes
Member
What's kind of funny is Fall 2018 is a pretty decent estimate for the timeline of the investigation.
RustyNails
Member
The new AJC poll is giving me life. Ossof +7.
nature boy
Member
smokeymicpot
Beat EviLore at pool.
Let me have some hope. It will be like waiting for Terry Gilliams Don Quixote. Just gonna get pushed back year after year. I know in the back of mind it is not coming for a long time but I will keep thinking it comes out each new season.
- Status