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PoliGAF 2017 |OT3| 13 Treasons Why
- Thread starter RustyNails
- Start date
- Status
AntraxSuicide
Banned
Infrastructure. Including upgrading our tech. When I was doing engineering, some of our projects were big enough that it would be faster to mail a hard drive instead of upload/download. That's legitimately hurting a lot of forward businesses.
RastaMentality
Banned
high speed rail with fancy pics and help from tech leaders should be a nice addition. pot won't necessarily get the youths to the polls but it definitely needs to be on the platform.
whyamihere
Banned
trains
There's no point to it. If you want to transport people, air is a billion times faster.
Why do people always ignore the enthusiasm that LGBTQ and women voters had for Clinton? Yes, the female vote is complicated - systemic sexism that sees women thinking that a woman doesn't have what it takes to run a country - but come on. Saying
Disregards a lot that Clinton got right, and that's in no small measure thanks to her being a woman, and being inclusive. Sadly, that inclusion wasn't pushed as far as it ought to have been, in some case (example - people not knowing that Hillary repeatedly said "Black lives matter").
ShironRedshift
Member
Yeah, it's pretty clear now that Trump winning is probably the best thing that could have happened for progressive goals. Had either Clinton or Sanders won, Congress would more or less stop them from doing anything, then Democrats would take huge losses in the midterms due to the Presidency being seen as completely ineffective, and then that just creates a knock-on effect leading to one term Presidents. But now, especially if Republicans are stupid enough to go full-hog with repealing the ACA like it appears they're going to, retaking the House shouldn't be a problem and Trump should easily be a one-term President if he isn't impeached/doesn't resign first.
Knowing what we know now, if we could do it again, really I wouldn't give a fuck about either Sanders or Clinton, but rather just let Trump have the Presidency, have Sanders/Clinton kind of low-key throw it, and focus all of our efforts on the DSCC, just completely dump everything in there, to make sure we had a majority in the Senate to block Trump from doing anything and just let things completely fall apart for him and the GOP from there. Not sure such a strategy would have actually worked, but Trump+R House+D Senate seems like it would have been the best possible scenario last year, but alas. Spilled milk and all that.
VendettaRed07
Member
Don't get me wrong I'm not suggesting the "downplay social issues", "talk less about minorities", etc narrative some people have crafted. I think that is bullshit. And I've denounced it on here countless times that we can't do that.
But Hillary did not hit the marks. She fell off several percentage points with black voters and Latinos. Virtually every minority demographic there is she did worse with except Asian voters if I remember correctly split more towards her than Obama.
I think Bernie is wrong on some things but he was dead on a lot of points that were largely ignored in the general. Bernie did significantly better with minority voters under 30 than older ones. So part of his messaging I think was generational as well. Lots of Hillary's losses had to do with younger minorities not being on board with her nearly as much as they anticipated.
We need to parse out where both went right and both went wrong. There is a winning combination in there somewhere that satisfies all the factions we need to roll with.
A big issue w/ both candidates being 70 is that both candidates had 20+ years of compromise fucking them over. We cant' run old candidates. (I think JTB pointed this out in the Clinton/Prison thread) - they need to be on the young side (under 55 ideally) and fresh to people's mindset.
SHHHHHHHH
I think something people miss is that the public option can easily become de facto single payer over time. It's just not something you want to rush in any way shape or form, but it is important to get it out the door while we have power (whether its medicare, medicaid, something new, etc.)
shinra-bansho
Member
Corbyn's current fortunes, so far as I can tell, have been dependent on just how bad his opponent was. So I'm assuming his future electoral fortunes will depend on how bad or good his opponent is, as well.
I don't really know if this campaign suddenly makes Corbyn a good political leader, as opposed to revealing just how shit a political leader May is.
I don't really know if this campaign suddenly makes Corbyn a good political leader, as opposed to revealing just how shit a political leader May is.
VendettaRed07
Member
I'm not trying to downplay anything I'm just trying to go off of the results or what we have seen. Do we have numbers on LGTBQ voting? I've never seen anything to suggest Hillary was doing more to get out the voter for Lgbtq voters than we have been before. But that would be interesting to see if we have data on that.
Also Hillary ran the general chasing white women's majority vote and did not get it. She may have with the gains on college educated white women she made on Obama but that was nullified by the much higher turnout in rural white women that voted against her. I don't think she did better with black/latino women than Obama did either.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Hence the "what else"
aspiegamer
Member
Other than Acela and maaaaybe California, rail isn't really a solution to anything. Doesn't substantively reduce any other form of travel or improve efficiency over other things, and sure as hell isn't cost effective. Hell, just make the roads drivable first and find solutions on a city by city basis.
You could jokingly ban personal vehicles but it would waste billions of hours a year in productivity moving people around in a marginally more eco-friendly manner by draping countless rail lines all over everything a la Japan. The urban expressway and interstate system sparked huge growth through the end of the 20th century but it's a hindrance to advancement now.
You could jokingly ban personal vehicles but it would waste billions of hours a year in productivity moving people around in a marginally more eco-friendly manner by draping countless rail lines all over everything a la Japan. The urban expressway and interstate system sparked huge growth through the end of the 20th century but it's a hindrance to advancement now.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
I remember coming across something about a higher LGBTQ turnout for her, but can't remember where, or how solid the data was. Will see if I can find it again.
With this, it's how you think of the demographics, and therefore how you chase them, maybe? College Educated up, but Rural down (which I think is correct) would speak to Rural women being less progressive than Urban/Suburban, just like the male vote (generally speaking). And by less progressive, I mean buying into their friend's/family's sexism. So, I don't think looking at how Bernie excited people would play much of a role here - it's more social, and embedded, I think. *shrugs*
Y'know, looking back at Comey's testimony, it was a massive reminder of just how bullshit Trump's claims that Comey was a "showboat" and a "grandstander" really are. The man was calm and collected the entire time, he really didn't give conservative media much ammo in their smear-campaign against his character.
Of course they'll find other ways to shit on him or cast doubt on his testimony, but he didn't give them an inch regarding Trump's take on Comey as a person.
Of course they'll find other ways to shit on him or cast doubt on his testimony, but he didn't give them an inch regarding Trump's take on Comey as a person.
aspiegamer
Member
I appreciate that Comey is a freaking massive story in the US, but to some degree I'm bummed that there's no window for coverage of the UK election. It's a backlash election we could learn from for 2018. On top, it has strong "every vote matters" and youth vote overtones.
Oh, right, and we'll get Trump's response sometime today. That'll extend Comey even further and it'll occupy the news cycle all day again today. Then of course it's Oppo'o'clocko on Friday, which is always entertaining.
Oh, right, and we'll get Trump's response sometime today. That'll extend Comey even further and it'll occupy the news cycle all day again today. Then of course it's Oppo'o'clocko on Friday, which is always entertaining.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Once again, projection. Just like everything else in his career.
Trump is the last person on Earth to call anyone else a "showboat" or "grandstander."
cartoon_soldier
Member
Medicaid buy-in is better and will be more popular than Medicare for all I believe.
Oh and no gun control or BLM if you want to win rustbelt.
TestOfTide
Banned
Gun Control is fine so long as you have actual gun owners advocating it instead of people who have never touched a gun in their entire lives.
aspiegamer
Member
Campaign on legal weed and justice reform instead of gun control and you've got issues that (shockingly) bypass racial lines now that white folk in the rust belt have an exploding drug epidemic.
I dislike the idea of "giving up" on it, but it's not worth specifically pushing in a campaign with so many other winning issues with popular support to cover.
VendettaRed07
Member
Relevant probably.
If they didn't turn out, I'd write off young people of this generation as monumentally stupid. Even if you're angry at the establishment, you've got to get out and vote because each vote counts no matter how safe your local member's seat might be. Its the easiest way to do your civic duty, where you can spend one hour every few years to express your approval or disapproval of how your local, state and federal government is run.
When you don't vote or do stupid protest votes, you end up with Brexit and Trump. Especially the United Kingdom, its exceedingly clear that the Brexit genie can't be put back in the bottle.
When you don't vote or do stupid protest votes, you end up with Brexit and Trump. Especially the United Kingdom, its exceedingly clear that the Brexit genie can't be put back in the bottle.
Prioritizing car-based travel is a large reason why we're in this mess to begin with. Also, a transcontinental HSR network is infeasible, but prioritizing certain corridors (Pacific Northwest, Great Lakes, Texas and surrounding states, and upgrading the NEC) is certainly a worthwhile endeavour.
...what else are you going to prioritize in a country this big?
The Chosen One
Member
Reposting from the Comey thread since it might already be dead. Now that the dust has settled some, here are my highlights from the hearing:
1). Comey's opening words - Comey's opening salvo was brilliant. It was powerful, you could feel the emotion dripping from each word. Comey felt wronged by the cowardly firing and Comey didn't mince words. He flat out called Trump a liar. We all know Trump is a liar, but it was just stunning to finally have someone in a position of importance to finally call a spade a spade. Regardless of how everything ends up playing out, I'm definitely going to remember Comey's opening words for years to come. I felt like I was witnessing history. Pretty powerful stuff.
2). Comey leaked with great vengeance and furious anger - Yes Comey was under oath, but it was still stunning at the level of candor he gave about his memos. He not only did he admit giving the memos to his friend with the intention of it going to the media but he unprompted added that he did it with the intention of triggering a special prosecutor. Cold. Blooded. He basically personified, "if you come at the king, you best not miss". Comey is playing 4D chess and the game is still being played. If I were to guess, Comey added that jab about the special prosecutor to further get under Trump's skin and goad him to make more dumb mistakes.
3). Trump's total indifference to the Russian hacking threat - I thought it was a very good line questions from a couple of Senators who asked Comey if Trump ever showed any concern for the Russian hacking threat not just for the past election but future elections. The fact that Comey said Trump never bothered to ask him about that investigation or seemed to show any concern about it is very damning in terms of just dereliction of duty. Every single Republican Senator agreed Russia is a threat that interfered with the past election and will attempt to hack future elections. Trump voters can no longer claim "Fake News". As more and more Republican voters come to grips that Russia is an active threat to our election system, if Trump as the Commander in Chief doesn't start showing more concern for the threat, it's going to do serious damage to him if there's hard evidence of continued Russian interference in special elections and leading up to the mid-terms. As soon as a Republican candidate or campaign organization is hacked, there will be mass outrage from the Right that nothing was done and the blame will be squarely at Trump and Congressional Republicans for being "soft on hacking". It'll be Trump's "Katrina" where the floor falls through.
Overall there wasn't a Perry Mason-like "smoking gun". But Comey laid out his evidence methodically in perfectly aligned dots for obstruction of justice or abuse of power for either Muller to connect the dots or Democrats if they take over the House in 2018. An obstruction of justice charge is literally just sitting on the table for Democrats.
Once Trump's sedative wears off, I'm sure he'll be back Tweeting and digging the hole even deeper.
One thing is clear. Trump will never see a second term. Yes, yes, all the pundits have been wrong about Trump, but there's simply too much weight over his head now. Whether he gets impeached before 2020 is still up in the air. Republicans may try to ride it out to the 2020 elections and just primary his ass so to avoid the embarrassment of an impeachment. But their agenda is already completely stuck in molasses and with a special prosecutor hanging over Trump's head, they can pretty much forget about passing any bi-partisan big agenda item. Even party-line votes are going to be very difficult. Looks like Punished Comey will get his revenge.
1). Comey's opening words - Comey's opening salvo was brilliant. It was powerful, you could feel the emotion dripping from each word. Comey felt wronged by the cowardly firing and Comey didn't mince words. He flat out called Trump a liar. We all know Trump is a liar, but it was just stunning to finally have someone in a position of importance to finally call a spade a spade. Regardless of how everything ends up playing out, I'm definitely going to remember Comey's opening words for years to come. I felt like I was witnessing history. Pretty powerful stuff.
2). Comey leaked with great vengeance and furious anger - Yes Comey was under oath, but it was still stunning at the level of candor he gave about his memos. He not only did he admit giving the memos to his friend with the intention of it going to the media but he unprompted added that he did it with the intention of triggering a special prosecutor. Cold. Blooded. He basically personified, "if you come at the king, you best not miss". Comey is playing 4D chess and the game is still being played. If I were to guess, Comey added that jab about the special prosecutor to further get under Trump's skin and goad him to make more dumb mistakes.
3). Trump's total indifference to the Russian hacking threat - I thought it was a very good line questions from a couple of Senators who asked Comey if Trump ever showed any concern for the Russian hacking threat not just for the past election but future elections. The fact that Comey said Trump never bothered to ask him about that investigation or seemed to show any concern about it is very damning in terms of just dereliction of duty. Every single Republican Senator agreed Russia is a threat that interfered with the past election and will attempt to hack future elections. Trump voters can no longer claim "Fake News". As more and more Republican voters come to grips that Russia is an active threat to our election system, if Trump as the Commander in Chief doesn't start showing more concern for the threat, it's going to do serious damage to him if there's hard evidence of continued Russian interference in special elections and leading up to the mid-terms. As soon as a Republican candidate or campaign organization is hacked, there will be mass outrage from the Right that nothing was done and the blame will be squarely at Trump and Congressional Republicans for being "soft on hacking". It'll be Trump's "Katrina" where the floor falls through.
Overall there wasn't a Perry Mason-like "smoking gun". But Comey laid out his evidence methodically in perfectly aligned dots for obstruction of justice or abuse of power for either Muller to connect the dots or Democrats if they take over the House in 2018. An obstruction of justice charge is literally just sitting on the table for Democrats.
Once Trump's sedative wears off, I'm sure he'll be back Tweeting and digging the hole even deeper.
One thing is clear. Trump will never see a second term. Yes, yes, all the pundits have been wrong about Trump, but there's simply too much weight over his head now. Whether he gets impeached before 2020 is still up in the air. Republicans may try to ride it out to the 2020 elections and just primary his ass so to avoid the embarrassment of an impeachment. But their agenda is already completely stuck in molasses and with a special prosecutor hanging over Trump's head, they can pretty much forget about passing any bi-partisan big agenda item. Even party-line votes are going to be very difficult. Looks like Punished Comey will get his revenge.
I know not every paper is going to do this, but the Washington Post website has British Elections across the "top of the fold":
Conservatives lose majority, prompting calls for May's resignation
Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party may have finished second but still won big
What Britain's next government could look like
The huge increase in young voting tells me Corbyn DID have something to do with it, if it was just based on how bad May was I doubt those percentages would have changed much
Was Obama actually a great candidate or was he actually shit and just used how awful Bush was to coast to victory?
Dont believe the Tory propaganda, us comrades are taking over
Was Obama actually a great candidate or was he actually shit and just used how awful Bush was to coast to victory?
Dont believe the Tory propaganda, us comrades are taking over
Given how we did in Obama's on-season years vs off, yes, it's Obama.
SpaceCadetKeon
Banned
Is there a scenario where electoral reform is possible at all in this country? Because abolishing the electoral college and upgrading to the alternative vote would be tits.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
It definitely reveals the latter. No doubt. May was a paper tiger who was never challenged.
But I do think it shows the value of having a leader who strongly believes in the things he is trying to enact and a repeated desire to calmly and clearly explain those beliefs.
I wouldn't really try to draw too many parallels between the UK and the USA. The legacy of slavery and Brexit alone are enormous differences that make it hard to compare. But I do think there is a prevailing belief that voters need to be patronised, which is wrong. They may often be stupid, but will repeatedly vote for people and things they don't necessarily agree with if the narrative fits. People are sick of smooth liars.
aspiegamer
Member
The UK shocker has me marginally more optimistic about 2018. Apparently it is actually possible to anger enough left-learning voters (and youth vote!) into a backlash against the ruling party and for that anger to manifest in a relatively short period of time (by political standards). We had the big D wave in 2006-8 but that had foundations starting all the way back in 2003 when it was clear the war was going to shit.
Edit: Actually, I may be totally wrong! It's pretty pointless so long as it's almost entirely blue states participating.
lol no... There's an unofficial group of states that want an agreement to all give their EC votes to the popular vote winner but that hasn't really gone anywhere. It would effectively make the PV winner the President under any circumstance with the current NY+CA blue domination. Uh. I think. I make no promises on this.
Edit: Actually, I may be totally wrong! It's pretty pointless so long as it's almost entirely blue states participating.
SpaceCadetKeon
Banned
Bah, I figured as much. Conservatives are why we can't have nice things. ;(
Well if I were to add another thing to the platform, it would be restore the internet's Title II protections, assuming that Pai succeeds in rolling those back.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
National ID
D.C. Statehood (PR too)
Actual infrastructure (focus on modernization and fiber proliferation)
Edit: broad economic sanctions on Russia
I'd like to see free online college and free digital textbooks for schools.
That could be done for peanuts in terms of federal budget.
I'd like to see the government set up their own free online tax filing service as well (basically a free government version of TurboTax).
If I were running for office, I'd call for a moonshot into birth control, nanotechnology, and artificial wombs, with the goal of ending abortion while preserving a woman's right to choose. That takes that wedge issue off the table.
nature boy
Member
Everyone is easily zeroing in on ideology and political spectrum, but I can very easily see another obvious difference between
Trump, Corbyn, Macron
and
Hillary, May, LePen
But in a space filled with dudes, the first response to that argument is always, "This has nothing to do with gender."
Ascribing one answer to elections is probably a bad idea.
Time to move on guys, healthcare fight this month. Again.
Trump, Corbyn, Macron
and
Hillary, May, LePen
But in a space filled with dudes, the first response to that argument is always, "This has nothing to do with gender."
Ascribing one answer to elections is probably a bad idea.
Time to move on guys, healthcare fight this month. Again.
How come this always happens on gaf
At least she won the popular vote.
@dramatis: Sexism is bad and it clearly hurt Clinton a lot but is there really any need for you to stan for May or LePen? Especially Le Pen? Like am I supposed to feel bad sexism might have kept a Nazi from being president of France? I feel super bad about what it did to Clinton but you can make the argument that "sexism is real and its bad" without propping up women most of us wouldn't want to hold office for legit, non-sexist reasons.
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