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PoliGAF 2017 |OT3| 13 Treasons Why

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smokeymicpot

smokeymicpot

Beat EviLore at pool.
BoogieWoogie said:
After yesterday's display during the Yates hearing, I'm not trusting a fucking thing to come out of the Congressional and Senate investigations. The fact that Hillary's fucking emails were brought up...
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Some GOP members didn't pull that shit it wasn't a lot but it was something. Graham seems like he is walking the line at times with this. He isn't looking to be a sound bite for a week. So I believe him here and there.
 
T

TestOfTide

Banned
Ernest said:
Do they even have a chance to do so? The seats up for reelection in 2018 are heavily gerrymandered and quite safe, no?
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Keep in mind that so far the only seats we have seen reelection results for post-2016 are districts that had been considered safe red and they still have shown swings suggesting that the GOP could lose the house.

But I honestly don't think that Dems need to rely on impeachment to nail Trump, because if Trump loses reelection in 2020, then he'll no longer be protected from jail time for his violations of the emoluments clause.
 
E

etrain911

Member
TestOfTide said:
Keep in mind that so far the only seats we have seen reelection results for post-2016 are districts that had been considered safe red and they still have shown swings suggesting that the GOP could lose the house.

But I honestly don't think that Dems need to rely on impeachment to nail Trump, because if Trump loses reelection in 2020, then he'll no longer be protected from jail time for his violations of the emoluments clause.
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I think jailing Trump post-presidency on something like the emoluments clause would, unfortunately, be career suicide for Dems who picked up R voters. It would be viewed as Dems jailing their political opponents and Rs would super spin it that way. "Trump didn't go after Hillary! He lost! He's just a citizen now!" It would have to be something akin to treason.
 
P

PBY

Banned
Impeachment is a pipe dream, neither that (or really anything Russia related) should be anything the Dems focus on in my opinion. The messaging sucks, its not a tangible force impacting peoples lives, and honestly - if they focus on it, and the investigation turns out to be nothing, they will all have egg on their face.

Let the investigation run its course, support it, but don't emphasize it.


All the Dems should be focusing on imo are: economic policy, healthcare and basic rights.
 
O

Ogodei

Member
PBY said:
Impeachment is a pipe dream, neither that (or really anything Russia related) should be anything the Dems focus on in my opinion. The messaging sucks, its not a tangible force impacting peoples lives, and honestly - if they focus on it, and the investigation turns out to be nothing, they will all have egg on their face.

Let the investigation run its course, support it, but don't emphasize it.


All the Dems should be focusing on imo are: economic policy, healthcare and basic rights.
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I'd argue that they have to impeach. It backfired with Clinton because Clinton was popular. Trump is deeply unpopular and as long as the Democrats don't look too ghoulish in their pursuit of impeachment, it'll help rally the base.

Though i agree the focus should be on emoluments clause or something less hard to understand, compared to Russia.
 
P

PBY

Banned
Ogodei said:
I'd argue that they have to impeach. It backfired with Clinton because Clinton was popular. Trump is deeply unpopular and as long as the Democrats don't look too ghoulish in their pursuit of impeachment, it'll help rally the base.

Though i agree the focus should be on emoluments clause or something less hard to understand, compared to Russia.
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Pushing for impeachment would be such a monumental mistake in my opinion unless the evidence of actual malfeasance is undeniable. Emoluments impeachment is a pipe dream.

Win back the house or senate, obstruct, win in 2020. That's all thats realistic.
 
D

dramatis

Member
etrain911 said:
I think jailing Trump post-presidency on something like the emoluments clause would, unfortunately, be career suicide for Dems who picked up R voters. It would be viewed as Dems jailing their political opponents and Rs would super spin it that way. "Trump didn't go after Hillary! He lost! He's just a citizen now!" It would have to be something akin to treason.
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I disagree.

Letting Nixon go, letting Bush go—I think those are mistakes. We can talk about the political optics, or we can understand that perhaps it is unpopular but it is the right thing to do to treat the president as equal to other citizens. That in the eyes of the law, even the president has to be accountable.

There's a saying for that in Chinese that says even son of heaven should be punished if he committed a crime.
 
O

Ogodei

Member
dramatis said:
I disagree.

Letting Nixon go, letting Bush go—I think those are mistakes. We can talk about the political optics, or we can understand that perhaps it is unpopular but it is the right thing to do to treat the president as equal to other citizens. That in the eyes of the law, even the president has to be accountable.

There's a saying for that in Chinese that says even son of heaven should be punished if he committed a crime.
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That's part of my case for impeachment. Do we really want to live in a world where the GOP says "oh yeah, if Trump was so bad, how come he was never impeached?" in 30 years?

We need to make sure he goes down as the worst president in history, that this shit will stick and follow the GOP for decades to come. And that comes from impeachment, even attempted.
 
J

jtb

Banned
Impeachment is a horrible idea politically. It's inherently undemocratic, and will be seen as such. It's red meat for the base, while self-immolating for everybody else.

Post-presidency conviction is even worse, even though it's the right thing to do. "Hasn't he already paid the price of his actions" "whatabouthillaryandobama" etc.
 
J

Joe Shlabotnik

Banned
PBY said:
Pushing for impeachment would be such a monumental mistake in my opinion unless the evidence of actual malfeasance is undeniable. Emoluments impeachment is a pipe dream.

Win back the house or senate, obstruct, win in 2020. That's all thats realistic.
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Inclined to agree unless the gun is hot and smoking

Also, Graham doesn't like Trump. He REALLY doesn't like Russia. But he's a conservative who doesn't like Democrats, either. The Russia stuff genuinely concerns him but you're never going to mistake him for a Democrat senator with his questioning, you'll always get some of that nonsense to cover his ass for the good questions.

He also knows the Democrats are going to ask the pertinent questions for him.
 
S

Slacker

Member
Why the Macron Hacking Attack Landed With a Thud in France

The contrast with the United States presidential campaign was sharp: Hacking of Hillary Clinton that was traced to Russia may have played a role in her defeat by Donald J. Trump, but news of the hacking in France was met with silence, disdain and scorn.

The contrast may have been amplified further by the absence of a French equivalent to the thriving tabloid culture in Britain or the robust right-wing broadcast media in the United States, where the Clinton hacking attack generated enormous negative coverage.

“We don’t have a Fox News in France,” said Johan Hufnagel, managing editor of the leftist daily Libération. “There’s no broadcaster with a wide audience and personalities who build this up and try to use it for their own agendas.”
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https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/05/...smid=tw-share&referer=https://t.co/1EeQNp2Ho1
 
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VendettaRed07

Member
If trump is actually guilty of what he is being accused of then.. uh. Yeah. We have to go after him.

It was the right thing to let Nixon go. It was the right thing to not go after Bush.

Trump colluding with a foreign government to win an election is sort of an existential threat if it becomes a regular practice. Can't just let that slide I don't think.
 
E

etrain911

Member
dramatis said:
I disagree.

Letting Nixon go, letting Bush go—I think those are mistakes. We can talk about the political optics, or we can understand that perhaps it is unpopular but it is the right thing to do to treat the president as equal to other citizens. That in the eyes of the law, even the president has to be accountable.

There's a saying for that in Chinese that says even son of heaven should be punished if he committed a crime.
Click to expand...

I think that it is the just thing to do, but I think it is more important that Dems stay in power. The policies that these bastards are passing are going to kill people long-term, and one man, even a man as sick, narcissistic, and vile as Trump, is not worth risking giving it over to Republicans.

Edit: This pertains only to getting him on the emoluments clause, if we have a smoking gun for treason, I am all for it.
 
J

jtb

Banned
I don't think Trump will be tried post-presidency (for one, he'll practically be on his deathbed), but his associates? Kushner? Totally fair game, I think.

VendettaRed07 said:
If trump is actually guilty of what he is being accused of then.. uh. Yeah. We have to go after him.

It was the right thing to let Nixon go. It was the right thing to not go after Bush.

Trump colluding with a foreign government to win an election is sort of an existential threat if it becomes a regular practice. Can't just let that slide I don't think.
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Nixon sabotaged the Vietnam talks to win election in 1968, a reasonably close election.
 
P

PBY

Banned
VendettaRed07 said:
If trump is actually guilty of what he is being accused of then.. uh. Yeah. We have to go after him.

It was the right thing to let Nixon go. It was the right thing to not go after Bush.

Trump colluding with a foreign government to win an election is sort of an existential threat if it becomes a regular practice. Can't just let that slide I don't think.
Click to expand...

I mean... it depends on what "colluding" is. If its people under Trump doing shades of unethical shit, with no smoking gun to Trump, its a political nightmare.

Either way, there's soooooooooo much more/easier/better ways to remove and fight Trump, I just don't think this is necessary.
 
J

Joe Shlabotnik

Banned
VendettaRed07 said:
If trump is actually guilty of what he is being accused of then.. uh. Yeah. We have to go after him.

It was the right thing to let Nixon go. It was the right thing to not go after Bush.

Trump colluding with a foreign government to win an election is sort of an existential threat if it becomes a regular practice. Can't just let that slide I don't think.
Click to expand...

That's what I mean by "smoking gun" though. If there's hard evidence that Flynn and Manafort and Page are up to their eyeballs in Russian mud but they won't flip on Trump and there's no direct evidence of what he knew, then I don't think you can go after him with just "COME ON, PEOPLE".

You need a recording, or a transcript, or a transaction record, and/or testimony.
 
P

PBY

Banned
Joe Shlabotnik said:
That's what I mean by "smoking gun" though. If there's hard evidence that Flynn and Manafort and Page are up to their eyeballs in Russian mud but they won't flip on Trump and there's no direct evidence of what he knew, then I don't think you can go after him with just "COME ON, PEOPLE".

You need a recording, or a transcript, or a transaction record, and/or testimony.
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Yep. And even then its dicey.

I really wish all this stuff would leave the news cycle, or rather, just linger in the background like Hillary's emails.

A lingering, background stain, to me, is far more powerful politically than a full court, front page, constant press that doesn't lead to anywhere. Then the Dems have fucked themselves.
 
V

VendettaRed07

Member
PBY said:
I mean... it depends on what "colluding" is. If its people under Trump doing shades of unethical shit, with no smoking gun to Trump, its a political nightmare.

Either way, there's soooooooooo much more/easier/better ways to remove and fight Trump, I just don't think this is necessary.
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Colluding as in we find evidence of Trump literally on the phone with Putin going "yeah I'll lift sanctions and you can have Ukraine if you cyberattack my opponents", or evidence that Trump told Manafort or whoever to tell the Russians that.

I think we need to investigate and see if anything like that exists. If it does you have to go after him I think. Can't just put that aside for the sake of unity or whatever
 
P

PBY

Banned
VendettaRed07 said:
Colluding as in we find evidence of Trump literally on the phone with Putin going "yeah I'll lift sanctions and you can have Ukraine if you cyberattack my opponents", or evidence that Trump told Manafort or whoever to tell the Russians that.

I think we need to investigate and see if anything like that exists. If it does you have to go after him I think. Can't just put that aside for the sake of unity or whatever
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I mean, for sure.


I also am inclined to really doubt that exists, but definitely yes.
 
S

studyguy

Member
Trump 2020 runs with a political history however. There are no more disillusioned voters grafting whatever personal ideals they'd like him to have any longer now that he's a known political qty. The fact that he could run proLGBT or anti-whatever doesn't hold water now that he actually has receipts to pull on.
 
V

VendettaRed07

Member
PBY said:
I mean, for sure.


I also am inclined to really doubt that exists, but definitely yes.
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I think "delete the Muslim ban page, but leave up the URL, even though it doesn't matter because it's already been there for months", is the reason why I wouldn't be completely surprised if it did. They have been so astoundingly stupid so far in their handling of basically everything. I wouldn't look away based on the assumption that they probably covered their tracks well enough
 
S

studyguy

Member
It's definitely not, but all the same. It's Trump likely trying to pull as much money as he can out of these fundraisers regardless of what happens in 2020. Cash in his pocket even if it's meant to be for the campaign.
 
Emerson

Emerson

May contain jokes =>
TestOfTide said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Comey is Varys.

Comey did what he did because he figured that even if Hillary had won, she would only be a one term POTUS. So his priority was to not get fired for a GOP POTUS.

That's doesn't excuse what he did, but it means that even though he did it, we can still count on him to investigate Trump so long as he feels it protects the FBI from Russian influence.
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Varys is not actually without allegiance.
 
E

Effect

Member
The only way impeachment doesn't work I think is if they don't present very clear and digestible information as to why. If they do that I think they should be fine. This would not be like going after someone that lied to cover up an affair. Don't come off being hypocrites or overreach. Colluding with a foreign power is a much more serious charge and if you are able to connect A to B to C in a straight forward manner it would be very hard to spin. People won't like it but they would understand it and who is going to want to defend that when its something easy for someone to understand. Like everything messaging matters.

There will of course be the those that refuse to accept anything and that will back Trump or a R no matter what. There is nothing you can do about those people. We've seen the disconnect they'll have about healthcare. Depend on the ACA, know full well it helps them and their family and literally means the difference between life and death but will still vote for a person that promises to take it away and still want to back that person when they try to make good on the promise. Those people are hopeless. Those are the people trump talks about not losing support if he shot someone in the street. Credit were its due because he at least was able to read that. Those people can't be allowed to stop this if there is true evidence there.
 
B

Beer Monkey

Member
Effect said:
The only way impeachment doesn't work I think is if they don't present very clear and digestible information as to why.
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The amount of Trump actions, including many having zero to do with Russia, that are impeachable, is unprecedented. The emoluments alone are enough.

The only way impeachment doesn't work is if we don't take back the House in 2018. The only thing preventing impeachment is the Republican congress.
 
E

Effect

Member
I mean yeah taking back the House is a given for this to be done at all. I'm must saying after that there is a way of doing it.
 
Emerson

Emerson

May contain jokes =>
Beer Monkey said:
The amount of Trump actions, including many having zero to do with Russia, that are impeachable, is unprecedented. The emoluments alone are enough.

The only way impeachment doesn't work is if we don't take back the House in 2018. The only thing preventing impeachment is the Republican congress.
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Taking back the House is not enough.

You either need to gain 19 Democratic Senators in 2018 (read: not possible) or you have to have evidence damning enough to convince 19 Republican Senators to vote to convict.

Yes, there are already more than enough reasons to impeach him. But this is the reality of the situation. You need a smoking gun of Trump's personal collusion with the Russians.
 
A

ArkhamFantasy

Member
The republicans said before the election that they were getting impeachment papers ready for hillary, they also admitted that they wouldnt let her have a scj pick. the time for kids gloves is long past, if the democrats see an opportunity to go for the jugular then they should take it, the republicans wouldnt show democrats any mercy.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
Someone on FB arguing in favor of the Electoral College posted a RCP article that mentioned Bill Clinton didn't win a majority of the popular vote. What she took from it - "If we did things your way, Bill Clinton never would have been president, he lost the popular vote!"

Fucking murder me. I can only imagine her feverishly typing in "why we need the electoral college," pulling up the first result that came up and assuming that would put any dumbocrat in their place.
 
V

VendettaRed07

Member
BlastProcessing said:
The Yates hearing only happened because of Republican support.
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Basically.

TBH I feel like Lindsay does have a vested interest in going after Trump and looking into the Russia situation but he's trying to do what he can to maintain political capitol with Republicans at the same time.

So I'd expect him coming off as a GOP shill and only caring about stuff like leaks is just for show while he does help empower democrats to go after him harder in situations where he didn't really have to.

Ok not JUST for show, he's still a total party Stan; but maybe not quite so much as it appears .. possibly
 
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