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[Box of Kittens]

An interesting take from Josh Marshall.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/lessons-of-the-day

This obviously comes out with the issue of emails. But today’s news actually brings up the great unstated revelation of the Russia/Wikileaks/DNC hack meta-story. Russian hackers accessed large swathes of the private email correspondence of various DNC staffers. They gained full access to the private email of John Podesta, chairman of the Clinton campaign and one of the most powerful people in the Democratic party. We can probably assume that other people’s emails were hacked that we never heard about. The really big story was how little genuinely damaging stuff there was. People talk. People say nasty things about other people. Sometimes people confirm that what they really believe is the polar opposite of what they claim. Sometimes they denigrate their supporters as imbeciles and chumps. Again, a very sophisticated state-backed subversion campaign got access to close to everything off these servers. And what they came up with was pretty thin. Yes, there were some embarrassments. But fundamentally the delta between what the people in question were saying in public and in private just wasn’t that large.

In the nature of things, the Democrats couldn’t really make this argument. “We turned out, on balance, to be fairly honest and not that bad” isn’t a great campaign slogan. But I think it is simply a fact that there just wasn’t very much there. These calls today are communications with foreign heads of state which are by definition being recorded at least on both ends of the line if not perhaps by third parties. They are also public documents, not private communications. They’re not private chats or trash talking with pals. And yet you can see that with Trump, the delta is quite massive. That’s as we expect, since Trump is a congenital liar.

More at the link. This lines up with what a lot of us were saying (dare I say many people were saying it?) during the email dump, that for all the talk of corruption being exposed, there was really very little of substance to the leaks. Also tangentially relates to the "finally a politician who's willing to say what he means" thing being BS (because of course it was always about racism, not honesty).

Man, fuck Wikileaks.

 

[VendettaRed07]

Think it's totally wrong to lump Harris in with Patrick and Booker. It isn't like she was getting into fights with Obama for going after Mitt Romney in 2012 or anything monumentally stupid like that.

 

[Wilsongt]

What about liberal icon Tulsi Gabbard? She's one of the good ones.

Gabbard/Honorable Turner 2020/2024/2028/2032

Forum on NPR was talking about the Seth Rich story and someone called in mentioning Assange......

Any Democrat who believes anythinf Assange says should be laughed out of the party and shamed GoT style.

 

[studyguy]

LIBERAL ICON JOHN MCCAIN AND TUSLI GABBARD 2020 FOR THE DEMS

 

[rjinaz]

An interesting take from Josh Marshall.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/lessons-of-the-day



More at the link. This lines up with what a lot of us were saying (dare I say many people were saying it?) during the email dump, that for all the talk of corruption being exposed, there was really very little of substance to the leaks. Also tangentially relates to the "finally a politician who's willing to say what he means" thing being BS (because of course it was always about racism, not honesty).

Man, fuck Wikileaks.

This still boggles my mind. If anything all those leaks showed that Democrats are actually pretty decent, or at the very least, aren't two faced. Their private conversation were out there for the world to see, and nothing was there. In a sane world people would realize that maybe they had it wrong. But, their hatred for Hillary was too much though to allow for any critical thinking. Meanwhile Trump and the Republicans continue to wear their ugliness out in the open and somehow Democrats are still worse, because, a gut feeling they are truly horrible people deep down.

 

[iavi]

The fuck are you smoking? I gave up on the Kings this year when we traded an all star for potato chips.

Wait, are you also a Sacramento native? I FOUND ONE.

There's a few of us in here

Also trading cousins and killing it in the draft in-turn was the best move the FO has made in years. Gave up at the worst time breh

 

[Fenderputty]

It's kinda sad as terrible as Trump is that entire transcripts of calls with foreign leaders are getting leaked. It will discourage some conversations with other nation's leaders for sure. They might avoid talking on some sensitive topics to their nations completely.

I was okay with the broad strokes of the conversation that the NYT put out earlier in the year, but the whole transcript? That NSC team is a joke.

Edit: If these were eligible for FOIA requests then it changes the dynamics for sure.

Fuck these guys should be making calls hoping shit gets leaked at this point in time. They ran roughshod over his ass lol

 

[iavi]

There are legit, serious, policy-based criticisms of all three to be had of these three but the blanket rejection is kind of a bad look.

This isn't loaded at all

e;not your post, but the link--which didn't quote for some reason

 

[tuxfool]

well oiled machine.

 

[Vimes]

An interesting take from Josh Marshall.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/lessons-of-the-day



More at the link. This lines up with what a lot of us were saying (dare I say many people were saying it?) during the email dump, that for all the talk of corruption being exposed, there was really very little of substance to the leaks. Also tangentially relates to the "finally a politician who's willing to say what he means" thing being BS (because of course it was always about racism, not honesty).

Man, fuck Wikileaks.

There shoulda been a piece to this effect on the front page of the NYT a year ago, but here we are now.

Seriously what a whole lot of nothing this was, and yet I still talk to people (usually moderates, ironically) convinced it was the smoking gun on the DNC rigging the primary.

 

[BlastProcessing]

He's joking about the time people started saying he "became president."

When life gives you Don Lemons...

 

[Blader]

Nina Turner is a state senator. she might as well had been bernie's puppet. I'm sure they'd all evacuate real quick when she starts talking about BLM ~identity politics~ more than economic white coal trade blue collar plight anyways.

Former state senator! For 1.5 terms!

Unlike Keith and Tulsi, who are at least actual members of Congress (and Keith is in DNC leadership), Turner is a nobody.

 

[Box of Kittens]

There shoulda been a piece to this effect on the front page of the NYT a year ago, but here we are now.

Seriously what a whole lot of nothing this was, and yet I still talk to people (usually moderates, ironically) convinced it was the smoking gun on the DNC rigging the primary.

I think Marshall is right here that for all of the truth to the argument that "yeah, there's some embarrassing things in here, but there's bound to be in any large organization and on the whole this shows the DNC to be relatively honest" it's basically an impossible argument to make.

 

[BlastProcessing]

@gregpmiller
Trump's strange "local milk people" line may be ref to Chobani, pilloried on alt-right for hiring immigrants.

 

[Beer Monkey]

More at the link. This lines up with what a lot of us were saying (dare I say many people were saying it?) during the email dump, that for all the talk of corruption being exposed, there was really very little of substance to the leaks. Also tangentially relates to the "finally a politician who's willing to say what he means" thing being BS (because of course it was always about racism, not honesty).

Man, fuck Wikileaks.

Never forget that the Podesta WikiLeaks dump was one hour after the Access Hollywood tape leaked. Coincidence? No way. It was a direct response by Putin to attenuate/obfuscate media coverage of Trump.

 

[Fenderputty]

The above three are pragmatists.

That's anathema to these "so-called leftists."

Bingo. The harder the far left pushes against Harris the more I want to vote for her too.

 

[Blader]

I think Kamala and Booker also have enough public swagger to win over a lot of fairweather far-leftists, like Obama did and Hillary could not.

 

[Hindl]

I think Kamala and Booker also have enough public swagger to win over a lot of fairweather far-leftists, like Obama did and Hillary could not.

The internet echo chambers have strengthened a lot since 2008. I think the era of fairweather extremists on either side is over and people have hardened their stances. People aren't dipping their toes into TYT and other stuff while also consuming mainstream media. They're going all in on and ignoring the mainstream, so I think turning them will be hard

 

[RumbleHumble]

McMaster Clears Susan Rice RE: the "unmasking scandal":

https://twitter.com/mikenizza/status/893133356791189510

 

[Finale Fireworker]

when Tulsi gets like 2% of the black vote, maybe it'll shake them to wake the hell up.

Tulsi won't get 2% of the vote. Like, the whole one.

 

[Box of Kittens]

Never forget that the Podesta WikiLeaks dump was one hour after the Access Hollywood tape leaked. Coincidence? No way. It was a direct response by Putin to attenuate/obfuscate media coverage of Trump.

Nah, Julian Assange is just a crusader for government transparency with no hidden agenda whatsoever.

 

[jack_package_200]

McMaster Clears Susan Rice RE: the "unmasking scandal":

https://twitter.com/mikenizza/status/893133356791189510

Breaking News: Trump has fired McMaster

 

[VendettaRed07]

I think Kamala and Booker also have enough public swagger to win over a lot of fairweather far-leftists, like Obama did and Hillary could not.

I think Booker could swing SOME people Hillary did not sway but for the most part, especially given the results of the last election most people will be voting with their gut and not based on electability. So I'd imagine Booker could do even worse not being able to get the "I agree with Bernie more but Hillary is a safer bet against Trump", crowd. Harris will likely do far better.

The vast majority of people who are going to vote in the 2020 primary are reasonable people. The 43% or so who turned out for Bernie are not all young Turk reject twitter trolls. They can be swayed. Especially given she doesn't have a damaging history like Hillary (or Booker)She hasn't made the job of defending her if need be difficult. So I don't think there's all that much to worry about for her

 

[Fenderputty]

McMaster Clears Susan Rice RE: the "unmasking scandal":

https://twitter.com/mikenizza/status/893133356791189510

Paging Shawn Hannity. Can you hear this Shawn?

 

[CrimzonSamurai]

Wasn't there some movement a while ago about trying to extradite Assange and we were all confused as to why Trump would do that and then nothing has come of that?

Or am I mixing up Snowden stuff?

 

[studyguy]

Wasn't there some movement a while ago about trying to extradite Assange and we were all confused as to why Trump would do that and then nothing has come of that?

Or am I mixing up Snowden stuff?

Snowden.
Some military general in Trump's orbit wanted to parade Snowden down the street iirc. Or was it execute him?
Maybe both? I recall there was a point where most of poliGAF was like RIP Snowden when Putin was potentially offering him up.

 

[Kusagari]

Kamala's relatively blank slate probably works against her in cases like this, because it lets issues like the Mnuchin stuff stick more.

She should probably start sticking her neck out more on progressive issues if she's going to run in 2020.

 

[Hyoukokun]

Wasn't there some movement a while ago about trying to extradite Assange and we were all confused as to why Trump would do that and then nothing has come of that?

Or am I mixing up Snowden stuff?

Maybe what you're remembering is that Assange promised to turn himself over if Chelsea Manning received clemency? She got it, but Assange has failed to make good on the promise.

 

[whyamihere]

One of the worst things Trump has done yet politically was make fun of a swing state with big elections in 2018.

 

[pigeon]

Please stop talking about Tulsi Gabbard

 

[kirblar]

Kamala's relatively blank slate probably works against her in cases like this, because it lets issues like the Mnuchin stuff stick more.

She should probably start sticking her neck out more on progressive issues if she's going to run in 2020.

Being the presumed 2020 frontrunner is...not a place you want to be 3 years out.

 

[Valhelm]

I think Kamala and Booker also have enough public swagger to win over a lot of fairweather far-leftists, like Obama did and Hillary could not.

Public swagger matters a hell of a lot less than advocacy and proactive policy proposals. Obama's charisma would have meant jack shit if his campaign message was "law and order" instead of "hope and change".

I have a feeling that Kamala Harris can pull this off this kind of messaging while Cory Booker can't. While her connection to Steven Mnuchin is very disconcerting and she doesn't have a great record on incarceration, she is willing to support genuinely progressive policies that more run-of-the-mill Dems (like Booker) fight back against. She supports a $15 minimum while he doesn't. She even made overtures toward single-payer.

Booker seems to share all of Hillary's faults except for a bloody foreign policy record.

 

[FloydtheFathead]

Please stop talking about Tulsi Gabbard

Only you can stop it..


This is your moment pigeon



This is your moment

 

[VendettaRed07]

Kamala's relatively blank slate probably works against her in cases like this, because it lets issues like the Mnuchin stuff stick more.

She should probably start sticking her neck out more on progressive issues if she's going to run in 2020.

I think this is sort of true as well. For her it isn't so much what she's done wrong I guess but what has she done that will make an appealing case for people

I think Gillibrand has probably gotten a bit of a head start here on stacking a more progress agenda record if she does intend to run

 

[Owzers]

Paging Shawn Hannity. Can you hear this Shawn?

McMaster is part of the deep state trump haters.

 

[Basileus777]

Kamala's relatively blank slate probably works against her in cases like this, because it lets issues like the Mnuchin stuff stick more.

She should probably start sticking her neck out more on progressive issues if she's going to run in 2020.

She just doesn't have a particularly compelling resume at this point. Obama and Trump winning have made the whole "experience matters" argument more difficult, but it shouldn't be irrelevant.

 

[Kusagari]

Being the presumed 2020 frontrunner is...not a place you want to be 3 years out.

She's already being presumed as a fronrunner without even doing anything. She's not going to escape it at this point.

Gillibrand is actually winning out again here, because she's somehow still flying under the radar.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

Please stop talking about Tulsi Gabbard

People won't stop talking! This is our revolution! The momentum is b u i l d i n g.

(PoliGAF is the only place in the entire world I ever read or hear anybody talking about Tulsi Gabbard, even ironically, as it is done here.)

 

[StopMakingSense]

Coming from a pretty exclusively AG/DA background isn't going to do you much favors with the progressive wing of the party. Harris should really follow the Gillibrand path of manufacturing as many bonafides as you go.

 

[VendettaRed07]

Please stop talking about Tulsi Gabbard

Yeah.

Even as a joke it's getting tiresome.

 

[Blader]

The internet echo chambers have strengthened a lot since 2008. I think the era of fairweather extremists on either side is over and people have hardened their stances. People aren't dipping their toes into TYT and other stuff while also consuming mainstream media. They're going all in on and ignoring the mainstream, so I think turning them will be hard

That's an interesting point I hadn't really considered. I guess we'll see!

I think Booker could swing SOME people Hillary did not sway but for the most part, especially given the results of the last election most people will be voting with their gut and not based on electability. So I'd imagine Booker could do even worse not being able to get the "I agree with Bernie more but Hillary is a safer bet against Trump", crowd. Harris will likely do far better.

Not sure what you mean here. I wasn't really talking about electability anyway, I only meant that Booker's charisma and speaking ability (which I think is a *tad* overrated, given his tendency to ramble, but is still way above average) would do a better job of winning over people concerned about his corporate baggage thanks to a charm offensive capability that has never been in Hillary's wheelhouse.

I'm not advocating for Booker 2020 btw. Personally I've always found him to be a pretty overhyped politician, hyped up by people who aren't even from NJ. I'm just saying, our base is easily charmed, and Booker's got charms.

 

[Aaron Strife]

One of the worst things Trump has done yet politically was make fun of a swing state with big elections in 2018.

He said there was "something wrong with the water in Iowa" to explain why Ben Carson was polling strongly there and won it in the general by 9 points.

He thinks he's invulnerable.

 

[Tall4Life]

No other Democrat has the legendary perception that Hillary had. Booker and Harris may not have the greatest perception (I haven't seen much against Kamala), but neither are even within a light year of the negative perception that Hillary did.

I think they'll be ok with basically anyone they put up except Hillary.

 

[studyguy]

Kamala's relatively blank slate probably works against her in cases like this, because it lets issues like the Mnuchin stuff stick more.

She should probably start sticking her neck out more on progressive issues if she's going to run in 2020.

Reminds me of this article:

https://mic.com/articles/183105/dem...arris-has-a-bernie-sanders-problem#.O3NtggFMj

And this criticism

”If she wants to advance her political career, she will have to come out authentically and honestly in support of universal healthcare, free college, a federal $15 hour minimum wage, criminal justice reform and the expansion of social security programs," Wong said. ”Anything less than this means the party will continue to bleed voters."

The article cites moments where she's literally backed each of those criticisms on her current platforms so... idk. w/e.

Still don't believe a CA politician can survive a primary across the states, but we'll see.

 

[Ogodei]

I think the idea of the left being so easily discouraged is overblown. It is something of a problem, but a coordinated campaign of Russian trolls and useful idiot alt-righters stateside is what signal-boosted the fruits of the DNC hacks to hell and back.

The Democrats were as dispirited as they were because there was a large, state-sponsored group working to dispirit them. Hell, look at how dispirited many Republicans are becoming by the wave of bad news from Trump and the total legislative failure of Congress. Morale can't survive a barrage of bad news.

 

[kirblar]

She's already being presumed as a fronrunner without even doing anything. She's not going to escape it at this point.

Gillibrand is actually winning out again here, because she's somehow still flying under the radar.

There's stuff about Harris that has been popping up as yellow flags for me (as a potential nominee). It's not really any individual thing, just a overall increasing sense that she might not have the political/campaign skills we'd want out of a potential 2020 nominee.

Like, the Yglesias joke of "THE WAY FOR THE DEMS TO WIN IN 2020 IS TO ADOPT *MY* POLICY POSITIONS" has a lot of truth to it, as does this: the Dems don't really have much room to move unless you want to lurch to the center on something. Elections aren't won and lost on policy minutiae and the candidate matters a lot. Bernie and Obama keep trying to make fetch happen (where "fetch" = getting enthusiasm and support behind an organization or candidate that isn't them) and it keeps failing over and over because the charisma isn't translating.

This is why Booker worries me - he definitely has charisma. But he's also a NJ politician with a lot of issues.

 

[Vimes]

I think the idea of the left being so easily discouraged is overblown. It is something of a problem, but a coordinated campaign of Russian trolls and useful idiot alt-righters stateside is what signal-boosted the fruits of the DNC hacks to hell and back.

The Democrats were as dispirited as they were because there was a large, state-sponsored group working to dispirit them. Hell, look at how dispirited many Republicans are becoming by the wave of bad news from Trump and the total legislative failure of Congress. Morale can't survive a barrage of bad news.

What concerns me is that all of the dishonest actors are going to come back twice as organized. 2016 proved that the left is incredibly easy to divide if you just drop the right disinformation in the right places.

 

[studyguy]

Also revisiting an earlier issue:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...step-over-abortion-thats-why-theyre-fighting/

Democrats Aren’t In Lockstep Over Abortion — That’s Why They’re Fighting

Former Democratic National Committee chair Howard Dean, who headed the organization during its 2006 “50 state strategy” push to be competitive, even in conservative states, tweeted out the Hill article and said, “I’m afraid I’ll be with holding support for the DCCC if this is true.”

But the DCCC signal on abortion is in keeping with some of what Sen. Bernie Sanders has been pushing for – that the party emphasize its economic message over its cultural one. It’s this philosophy that led Sanders to campaign this past spring for a Democratic mayoral candidate in Omaha, Nebraska, who voted for abortion restriction measures during his time in the state Senate.

The debate isn’t just lip service about how to attract Trump voters — it’s indicative of a split that already exists within the party. A look at the numbers shows Democrats don’t all feel the same about abortion rights. In 2017, polarization doesn’t just happen across party lines, but within parties themselves.

Earlier this week:
https://twitter.com/aedwardslevy/status/892762288909942785

Ariel Edwards-Levy (@aedwardslevy)
Also in latest Pollster: a May HuffPost/YouGov poll found relatively few Dems support abortion litmus test https://t.co/m0IMdJMagJ

 

[Blader]

Being the presumed 2020 frontrunner is...not a place you want to be 3 years out.

While I'm skeptical they'll even run, I don't think anyone but Biden or Bernie can be considered the 2020 frontrunner right now. Maybe Warren.

Nowhere near enough people even know who Kamala Harris is for her to be the frontrunner at this point.

 

[Glix]

She's already being presumed as a fronrunner without even doing anything. She's not going to escape it at this point.

Gillibrand is actually winning out again here, because she's somehow still flying under the radar.

New Yorker here.

Gillibrand is fucking AWESOME