Autodidact
Banned
Then we can have a discussion, but they usually have the position I outlined in my clarification.
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PoliGAF 2017 |OT5| The Man In the High Chair
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Then we can have a discussion, but they usually have the position I outlined in my clarification.
Insofar as we're the America of Donald Trump and the Cold War and the KKK we must all be passionate Anti-Americans. If you can't oppose the United States based on those precepts then you are on the wrong side.
If we're talking about the America of Nina Simone and the everglades and Tex-Mex cuisine then yeah, I'm a patriot. But expecting people to support the idea of America, regardless of what that stands for, is just a few steps from fascism.
If we're talking about the America of Nina Simone and the everglades and Tex-Mex cuisine then yeah, I'm a patriot. But expecting people to support the idea of America, regardless of what that stands for, is just a few steps from fascism.
The alt-left are the people who spat on Vietnam Veterans as they got off the plane. Who leapfrog over "some of what the US does is bad and needs to be challenged" right into "the US is bad and anyone who fights for it is trash" territory.
Really part of the reason why the Democratic party takes pains to show support for veterans/the military nowadays, is they still have to shake off that image which rooted itself into the minds of Boomers/Greatest Generation.
Really part of the reason why the Democratic party takes pains to show support for veterans/the military nowadays, is they still have to shake off that image which rooted itself into the minds of Boomers/Greatest Generation.
Hmm, I wonder what reason Germany has to be less militaristic.no I DON'T fucking enjoy this. They can't even spend 2%? Germany gets to be a socialist paradise while we subsidize the defense of the eastern front? Fuck me sideways.
If Britain can do it, so can they. I want to see everyone on the same line
Hmm...
Hmm.
Autodidact
Banned
Thank you for stating it more eloquently than I managed.
ShadowSwordmaster
Banned
I find it depressing that no matter what both parties do, the veterans are still treated like shit.
ErasureAcer
Banned
Vietnam was an unjust war. How are we still debating this? Don't fight in unjust wars.
Napalm me if you disagree.
Napalm me if you disagree.
Spitting on veterans is bad but that's not really something that happened. Then and now, it was a convenient excuse by the right to crack down on antiwar organizing.
"Support our Troops" is generally code for "support American policy unfalteringly". If the lives of our people in uniform were really paramount, let's stop sending them to die in pointless invasions.
"Support our Troops" is generally code for "support American policy unfalteringly". If the lives of our people in uniform were really paramount, let's stop sending them to die in pointless invasions.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I'll go ahead and say if you're a tankie I'm pretty comfortable calling you "alt left" as well, but they really do seem to be more of a "rest of world" thing than a "US" thing
I mean there was a draft for vietnam, plus I don't think most soldiers enjoyed their time there so yeah. Disrespecting most soldiers is bad.
Autodidact
Banned
When you come from some hick town devoid of opportunities, sometimes the military offers the only chance at education and advancement. Does that excuse everything the men (and now women) do, the orders with which they comply? No. But before you criticize the rank-and-file, or even the brass, criticize a country that so unevenly and inequitably distributes opportunity that some people have few options besides enlistment.
You can most assuredly support the troops - the young people just trying to get somewhere - without supporting this country's foreign policy. I like to think that the Democratic Party espouses my version of the message.
The spitting thing is largely a myth. There's also a difference between people who were drafted and forced into war as essentially slave soldiers and people who volunteer to go kill Muslims and "protect our freedoms". And of course there can be economic reasons people go in, but that's also just more reason to criticize capitalism.
That is not to say that everyone in the military is a terrible person.
That said, the US government has done so much bad stuff across the world that I'm not going to feel annoyed by people who instinctively dislike it. I do get annoyed when people take that to mean whoever the enemy of the US is at any given moment is automatically better.
ErasureAcer
Banned
You can fall into Nationalist crap if you want...but what is napalm if spit is disrespect?
That's like an eye for a cuticle.
Basileus777
Member
How even people in this thread still fall for the spitting on soldiers myth shows how powerful the right wing narrative about the social unrest coinciding with the Vietnam War is. It's like parroting blue lives matter material to decry left wing activism today.
ShadowSwordmaster
Banned
My comment from before was clearly a mistake.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
To be fair, it sounds like it was a group effort of deception:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spitting_Image
Most soldiers don't get the choice not to follow orders. The bread and butter of the soldiers are in most cases poor people that have joined the army in order to have a stable job with decent extras.
Edit: My answer was not about if the spitting of the soldiers was true or not, but rather that soldiers do not get to choose where they fight in most cases.
Mackenzie 92
Member
No one spat on returning vietnam vets. Amazed that that myth still lives on.
That said, most of the country did in fact dislike the military (boomers included) for all the atrocities that went on over there. The military didn't start getting their image rebuilt until Reagan.
edit: beaten
The other thing about the atrocities in Vietnam. Many of them were invisible and only happened later, so people were reacting only to the bits they saw.
The images of deformed children who were conceived by parents exposed to agent orange during the war are horrifying and will stick with me forever. I am unsure if the exposure (or even knowledge of it) at the time. Imagine if they had seen it all?
ctrl+f "Iran" 0 results.
I guess the whole administration's obsession of war with Iran didn't fit the narrative of evil (((DEEP STATE))) generals who forced themselves into top posts at DoD, DHS, NSC and CoS vs. the fine pacifist men like Flynn, Bannon and Cohen-Watnick Trump handpicked because they represent his deeply held non-interventionist beliefs.
And these atrocities are still happening. Our efforts to oust unfriendly governments in Syria, Libya, and Yemen are producing the same kind of senseless destruction. We're dropping 72 bombs a day in half a dozen countries, killing hundrds of innocent people and dooming their families to heartbreak and poverty.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
I already agree with you but do you think that destruction doesn't exist in an alternative universe with a hands-off US?
This is all but proclaiming that a bloodless coup has occurred because Kelly and McMaster fired blatantly unqualified people.
Uh huh.
In a world where international power is equitably held through democratic institutions, no it would not.
Basileus777
Member
Democratic institutions don't preclude war or atrocity.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
World War 1? European nations were relatively equal in strength and ended up in a war that killed more people than every other previous war in human history combined. I think without hegemony, more violent conflicts occur, not less.
I think his point is more that power imbalances cause war.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I think it would be misleading to call the Kaiser's Germany meaningfully democratic. It was about as democratic as contemporary Iran.
Basileus777
Member
Well that's a poor example as pre-war Germany was more democratic than Iran (and trending towards becoming more and more democratic), but Spoiled Milk was probably talking more about power being held equally.
I don't see the connection to democratic institutions then. Democracy is not a solution for sharing power equally.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
What Basileus said:
^There was no clear leader of Europe.
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No, but by creating accountability to the population at large instead of an entrenched oligarchy, you can sometimes avoid unjust wars. Counterpoint is... probably WW1, which saw democratic governments like France and the UK march to its own death.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
This isn't true. Present Iran has a wider franchise than pre-war Germany, and the Ayatollah is rather more limited than the Kaiser in their ability to influence the President/Prime Minister. If you're happy saying Iran is not currently a democracy, you have to concede pre-war Germany was not either.
excelsiorlef
Member
Ahhh they really are what part of what I call the useless left.
I'm done trying to argue who is or isn't left so instead I argue about usefulness.
TYT, Sam Harris, Maher, etc... can all call themselves left or liberals or whatever but that doesn't make them useful
Basileus777
Member
I'll admit that I know less about the workings of Iran's government, I but don't see it being as politically dynamic on the state or federal level as Germany in the early 1910s. With franchise you are probably talking about the Prussian landtag, but its class system was heavily under attack, most notably by the leading party SPD, and would probably have been torn down naturally if not for the war (and was one of the promises the Kaiser had to make to placate opposition during the war).
Spoiled Milk
Banned
what exactly is the usefulness of "left" and "right" again besides to describe ephemeral alignment of polarized societies? It makes us describe people like the "alt-right", who are somehow simultaneously far-right (to the left) and more left (to the proper fiscal conservatives).
jack_package_200
Banned
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/03/...portation.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0
This is madness. I hope the next progressive president would constrain and limit the power of ICE
This is madness. I hope the next progressive president would constrain and limit the power of ICE
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Yet those people are foul, alt-right bigots who want a jingoistic, white power America in a Great Power-dominated world. Quite why would a lefty group go to bat for them like these people's alt-right friends and RT...
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
Look at this short Fox News segment: https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/894282579486031873
The host asks about Trumps record so far and the one guest makes the point the Trump hasn't realized any policies yet, so the positive job numbers can't be accredited to anything Trump did.
The guest also mentioned that the job numbers have been like that for several years at this point. In fact, the first 6 months of 2016 more jobs had been added than in the first 6 months of 2017.
Here are the numbers:
At this point the host Jesse Watters says „thats not true”.
Which is a lie. I say „lie” because he is spreading falsehoods on purpose here.
For the past years, during Obamas term, Fox News was busy talking about these numbers every single month. Every single month these positive numbers came out and Fox News told its viewers how they don't matter and how they are not accurate.
Based on the amount of reporting they have done on those numbers I can't give Jesse Watters the benefit of the doubt here. He knew, and yet he still lied and said that its not true that these numbers have been like that for years.
Fox News is doing shameful journalism to the point where I would call it propaganda.
First they talk about how these numbers are inaccurate and meaningless during Obamas term.
Now that its Trump term the narrative suddenly changed and Fox News no longer calls them inaccurate and meaningless, but now acts like this is a new development under Trump, lying about the fact that this development has been going on for years and its based on legislation Obama pushed through in his first term.
They end the interview by giving the last word to a pro Trump pundit who gets to voice the opinion that you don't „necessarily have to do concrete things like legislation in order to get results.”
Which is, especially, when talking about the job numbers, grade A bullshit.
But thats where the segment ended, no further discussion, the bullshit goes unchallenged.
So bottom line: The truth was called „not true” and total nonsense stands at the end.
Viewer successfully misinformed.
Unfortunately I know that I am unlikely to find a Trump supporter or conservative or Fox News viewer here on NeoGAF and I also don't know any privately, but I am dying to see how anyone would defend that.
The host asks about Trumps record so far and the one guest makes the point the Trump hasn't realized any policies yet, so the positive job numbers can't be accredited to anything Trump did.
The guest also mentioned that the job numbers have been like that for several years at this point. In fact, the first 6 months of 2016 more jobs had been added than in the first 6 months of 2017.
Here are the numbers:
At this point the host Jesse Watters says „thats not true”.
Which is a lie. I say „lie” because he is spreading falsehoods on purpose here.
For the past years, during Obamas term, Fox News was busy talking about these numbers every single month. Every single month these positive numbers came out and Fox News told its viewers how they don't matter and how they are not accurate.
Based on the amount of reporting they have done on those numbers I can't give Jesse Watters the benefit of the doubt here. He knew, and yet he still lied and said that its not true that these numbers have been like that for years.
Fox News is doing shameful journalism to the point where I would call it propaganda.
First they talk about how these numbers are inaccurate and meaningless during Obamas term.
Now that its Trump term the narrative suddenly changed and Fox News no longer calls them inaccurate and meaningless, but now acts like this is a new development under Trump, lying about the fact that this development has been going on for years and its based on legislation Obama pushed through in his first term.
They end the interview by giving the last word to a pro Trump pundit who gets to voice the opinion that you don't „necessarily have to do concrete things like legislation in order to get results.”
Which is, especially, when talking about the job numbers, grade A bullshit.
But thats where the segment ended, no further discussion, the bullshit goes unchallenged.
So bottom line: The truth was called „not true” and total nonsense stands at the end.
Viewer successfully misinformed.
Unfortunately I know that I am unlikely to find a Trump supporter or conservative or Fox News viewer here on NeoGAF and I also don't know any privately, but I am dying to see how anyone would defend that.
They are a secret police force. This is horrifying.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
Maybe stop watching the opinion shows then? Watters is one of those shameless sycophants who'd rim Roger Ailes' dead body.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
This is even crazier than the stories of them following children home. It's insane how many sick people were just waiting to be validated.
whyamihere
Banned
What type of fucked up person joins ICE
Going to Rikers Island just so you don't get deported. That's a pretty awful life.
Also right wingers giving Trump credit for good economic numbers when he's really just riding Obama's coat tails is so very infuriating.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
I am watching it to understand why half the country thinks the way it does.
eh? Closing your eyes doesn't exactly solve the underlying problem.
Fox News' news division is a joke too and the D.C. press has finally stopped bothering to try and defend it.
It's beyond fucked up.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
It's not enough that they take joy out of performing raids, they have to come up with spectacular new ways to be asshats too. Democrats need to clean this org out from the top to bottom once they gain control again.
shinra-bansho
Member
It's a stupid term but also what is this nonsense.
No one is calling Sherrod Brown or Nancy Pelosi alt left.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
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