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[gkryhewy]

Rammusen: Mccain +3
Gallup: McCain +3
AP-GfK Poll: McCain +4

The Major Polls all show McCain maintaining a lead.

Oh, so YOU get to decide the polls that are major. And that's why NBC, ABC, Kos, Diageo/Hotline, etc, aren't factored.

 

[Gaborn]

He prefers a candidate which gives no gay marriage rights over a candidate who would support civil unions, because only the former leads to actual gay marriage.

More specifically, I view civil unions as government sponsored stigmatization, separating people based on a distinct class for the sole purpose of pointing out that they're lessor. I also view Obama's rhetoric that civil unions are equality for gay couples as harmful because that rhetoric takes away a large portion of straight supporters of marriage equality who might think gays should be satisfied with second class relationships. McCain's rhetoric is less harmful because he galvanizes and energizes the gay marriage movement. Afterall, under Bush, a much more anti-gay president than Clinton we got marriage rights in 2 states already. Under clinton we got DADT and DOMA. You tell me which YOU think was better for gay rights?

Jaydub - Yep, also true. I'm not voting for McCain, but specifically on gay rights McCain is better for the cause than Obama. Of course, I'm also not voting for Obama.

 

[SnakeXs]

Sadly, cutting taxes and spending wouldn't be as affective as increasing taxes on the rich, but then again, fiscal conservatism FTW:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/fe...08-boc-C2-Government-Spending-Grew-Faster.gif

Buh buh Hannity said revenue is up 20% with Bush from Clinton as a sign of the economy being a-ok!

 

[Branduil]

Of course. But then what do you want? According to everything you've mentioned thus far, isn't it fair to say that your interests are counter to the objectives of the party for which you're intending to cast your ballet?

Not really, since if you're not born, everything else is rendered moot.

The facts say otherwise.

Well, that convinces me.

 

[woxel1]

This. Ain't. Over.

 

[reilo]

Fucking a Hito. Look what you've done. You made Gaborn talk about gay marriage again.

 

[Evlar]

Please don't. I don't think mods engaging in puerile behavior is the good kind of interesting, and all it can really do is bait people into getting banned. It also lowers the level of discourse in this thread another decibel.

I don't know if it's all that much better insinuating pro-choice forumers don't care about children.

 

[Tamanon]

Please don't. I don't think mods engaging in puerile behavior is the good kind of interesting, and all it can really do is bait people into getting banned. It also lowers the level of discourse in this thread another decibel.

Um....of all people JayDubya can't get baited into getting banned.

 

[DeathbyVolcano]

More specifically, I view civil unions as government sponsored stigmatization, separating people based on a distinct class for the sole purpose of pointing out that they're lessor. I also view Obama's rhetoric that civil unions are equality for gay couples as harmful because that rhetoric takes away a large portion of straight supporters of marriage equality who might think gays should be satisfied with second class relationships. McCain's rhetoric is less harmful because he galvanizes and energizes the gay marriage movement. Afterall, under Bush, a much more anti-gay president than Clinton we got marriage rights in 2 states already. Under clinton we got DADT and DOMA. You tell me which YOU think was better for gay rights?

Jaydub - Yep, also true. I'm not voting for McCain, but specifically on gay rights McCain is better for the cause than Obama. Of course, I'm also not voting for Obama.

Good post, you have some pretty good points there.

 

[The Lamonster]

Fucking a Hito. Look what you've done. You made Gaborn talk about gay marriage again.

:lol

an equally dark time in PoliGAFland

 

[pxleyes]

"Living document" people interpret. The Constitution is not written in some mystic cypher. You do not need Benjamin Franklin's glasses to read the clues written on the back.

The concept of the living document is not a critique on reading it but rather adapting the document to fit the times.

 

[NullPointer]

What about the epic battle between wolves and babies?

I think we all know who would win that fight.

 

[Hitokage]

Obviously Gaborn is either not a single-issue voter, or that is not his single-issue.

No, we spent pages going over this. That was his logic, and I'm not saying that as a rhetorical attack as I was with you.

Bear in mind, I actually do vehemently disagree with your attitude that abortion discussion begins and ends with the unborn baby's life, but I don't think you're some sort of callous monster, just someone unconcerned with practical consequence.

 

[TDG]

You need to get out more. Yeah, no shit, no one has called Obama the next Jesus, but the cult following around him is more than prevalent and you're being ridiculous if you're trying to pretend that it doesn't exist.

So now a "more than prevalent" cult following Obama = a cult that thinks Obama is the messiah? People have hated the last eight years. Obama's a young, enthusiastic guy who wants to change things, and people are excited about him. And yet, conservative feel the need to mock liberals because they're excited about their candidate? Give me a break.

And I'm not giving you drama, I'm just tired of this double-standard bullshit you guys pull. You criticize McCain and Palin for playing dirty in light of Obama's comparatively clean campaign, but then turn around and, as I said, demonize McCain and his supporters.

And republicans do the same thing. That's what people who are passionate about things do. They get worked up, their judgement gets clouded, they lose their reasonableness, wtc.

Besides, we're outraged about the way McCain is running a campaign to become the President. You're outraged about the posts people make on message boards.

 

[The Lamonster]

Single-issue voters infuriate me.

 

[artredis1980]

News Markets according to Google


Yahoo (light blue) has a huge lead over CNN (orange), the others are irrelevant

Yahoo's top viewers are from Mississippi, Louisianna, SC, GA, AL, NC and Texas
http://trends.google.com/trends?q=www.yahoo.com&ctab=0&geo=US&geor=all&date=2008&sort=0

Yahoo's top viewing cities are from Miami, Herndon, Houston, Dallas, Atlanta


Basically the top viewers are all from red states for Yahoo




The top 10 searches on Google for September 12th are:

1. ray boltz
2. mccain on the view
3. gas prices by zip code
4. galveston web cameras
5. gas buddy
6. laura obzera
7. galveston tx
8. hurricane ike pictures
9. galveston weather
10. galveston daily news



MOST IMPORTANTLY

Last 30 days:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=Pali...&ctab=0&hl=en&geo=US&geor=all&date=mtd&sort=0

Palin was getting 5 times the searches to Obama on Google but they have dropped down to the extent that Obama is about to overtake her again

Biden is the least popular on google in terms of both tickets

 

[DeathbyVolcano]

The concept of the living document is not a critique on reading it but rather adapting the document to fit the times.

Amen.

 

[Gaborn]

Good post, you have some pretty good points there.

I'm glad you liked it

 

[Dolphin]

Not really, since if you're not born, everything else is rendered moot.

So abortion is your only concern when voting for a candidate? How much would you say you'd be willing to sacrifice in order to vote on that issue? More importantly, if life is your main concern, shouldn't you be additionally concerned about the number of men women and children that die as a result of a certain military occupation abroad?

 

[JayDubya]

The concept of the living document is not a critique on reading it but rather adapting the document to fit the times.

You say "adapting the document to fit the times," I say, "viewing a legal document through the lens of postmodernism, divorcing author's intent, and having it mean whatever we say it does."

I object to the latter rather strongly, because the states did not ratify Blackmun's Constitution, they ratified Madison's.

If you want to adapt the Constitution, to change the Constitution, the operative word there is synonymous with AMEND.

 

[Branduil]

The concept of the living document is not a critique on reading it but rather adapting the document to fit the times.

And there is a process for that...

So abortion is your only concern when voting for a candidate? How much would you say you'd be willing to sacrifice in order to vote on that issue? More importantly, if life is your main concern, shouldn't you be additionally concerned about the number of men women and children that die as a result of a certain military occupation abroad?

I certainly don't want people to die in wars, but for the most part, I don't believe innocent civilians are deliberately targeted.

Abortion is much more troubling to me because it's the taking of an innocent life, and almost never for a remotely justifiable reason.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Obama still favored in the Iowa Electronic Market:

http://iemweb.biz.uiowa.edu/quotes/Pres08_quotes.html

 

[thekad]

He prefers a candidate which gives no gay marriage rights over a candidate who would support civil unions, because only the former leads to actual gay marriage.

Too vague of a tag. I prefer:

Breckenridge is bad for civil rights today. Lincoln is bad for civil rights tomorrow!

Or something to that effect.

 

[The Lamonster]

Biden is the least popular on google in terms of both tickets

Biden needs to say something lightly controversial to make him "sexier"

...but not about Palin.

 

[The Lamonster]

Look at this shit goddam

http://www.google.com/trends?q=barack+obama,+sarah+palin&ctab=0&geo=all&date=mtd&sort=0

 

[Gaborn]

Too vague of a tag. I prefer:

Breckenridge is bad for civil rights today. Lincoln is bad for civil rights tomorrow!

Or something to that effect.

Disingenuous, Lincoln was good for blacks because his support for the 13th amendment gave blacks something they never had before but whites did, the explicit right not to be owned. Civil Unions by contrast are a new, specially created status unique to single out gays and stigmatize us as different. Not "worthy" of marriage under the law.

 

[Fatalah]

So for Obama supporters, wouldn't this be the right time to contribute to the campaign, in some form? Whether monetarily or through volunteering your time. Helping when polls were up is easy, but now is when it counts most.

Can the Obama camp keep its composure through these troubling times?

Spoiler

Unfortunately, the Dems are unable to announce an incompetent VP pick to re-energize their base, but there HAS to be another way!...

 

[The Lamonster]

So for Obama supporters, wouldn't this be the right time to contribute to the campaign, in some form? Whether monetarily or through volunteering your time. Helping when polls were up is easy, but now is when it counts most.

Can the Obama camp keep its composure through these troubling times?

Spoiler

Unfortunately, the Dems are unable to announce an incompetent VP pick to re-energize their base, but there HAS to be another way!...

IAWTP

also: :lol nice

 

[VanMardigan]

hay guys, what's goi..............what the hell?!?!?

What's wrong with fivethirtyeight? When did Nevada and New Mexico become red-outlined? Holy crap, I've missed a lot. That map looks an awful lot like 2004.

Oh, and as much as I love seeing far left gaf go in full panic/fear mode (since they're so damned annoying and cocky every other time), it's not fun when it means that Obama might not win.

I called my sister in Penn to ask her about Palin, and she wasn't buying it. She brought up the "it's scary if that woman becomes president" line and everything. She said she reads cnnpolitics.com, though, so I'm guessing she's more involved than the average voter.

 

[alr1ght]

Would you rather all government sanctioned unions between two people be called "Civil Unions" and those people's respective churches classify it as marriage?

 

[TheFightingFish]

Can we not have the abortion argument in here? It's stupid really.

It has gotten a little crazy in here but this really is a very important political issue for many of us (myself included). I'm not sure about some of the other staunch abortion opposers, but for myself I'd love to vote for Obama over McCain but his hardline stance on abortion makes it pretty hard for me to want to do that. Personally I think that some softening of Obama's stance (no abortions after 24 weeks for example) on the issue would help to draw in people like me and it's not like the hardcore NARAL types would run off and vote for McCain in that scenario.

And Dolphin, it's not like you can assume that everyone anti-abortion is pro-Iraq war. As for myself there are only three issue that are really "must have" issues anti-Iraq war, anti-capital punishment and anti-abortion. Basically every thing else I'll allow myself to compromise on to vote for who I consider a better candidate. It's just a shame that those must have issues almost always end up getting split between the two major parties and I'm probably going to end up abstaining this year. I'm not about to apologize to you or Lamonster for refusing to vote for a candidate who violates what I consider a moral necessity in a president.

 

[Particle Physicist]

where can i get information on how much mccain and obama have missed senate votes this past year and in 2007?

 

[JayDubya]

Obviously McCain supporters didn't give up when they were down, so it's kind of dumb for Obama supporters to do that.

Of course, since I've already stated that I prefer McCain to Obama, despite my moral inability to vote for him over Barr, by all means, be crestfallen! Your doom is at hand! Doom doom doom doom doom!

 

[thekad]

Disingenuous, Lincoln was good for blacks because his support for the 13th amendment gave blacks something they never had before but whites did, the explicit right not to be owned.

And what Obama offers - the same rights a married couple have - is not giving you something you never had before? What state do you live in, btw?

 

[Gaborn]

Would you rather all government sanctioned unions between two people be called "Civil Unions" and those people's respective churches classify it as marriage?

That would be perfectly fine with me. The moment states start taking away straight couples marriages and redefining them as Civil Unions I will believe it is a viable solution for the federal government.

thekad - I live in Michigan, as I've said several times before. We recently passed DOMA, which is of course a shame for my state but something we can deal with on the state level. The thing is that Obama's Civil Unions create an entirely new status JUST for gays that runs exactly parallel to marriage rights without ever touching the word marriage. There is no need to make that artificial distinction for gay couples except animus. That's why, in that post you linked, I asked if Obama, or for that matter you, would object if a state decided to give interracial couples and minorities civil unions in lieu of marriage. The fact that most people would say no out of hand is why civil unions are unacceptable as a special status for gay couples.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I'm not judging this as good or bad, mind you, just saying that the "Palin is a scary VP" argument rings false to me coming from Obama supporters. In my mind, they are both frightening when looking at experience.

So uh... did Bush make you feel warm and safe when he was running because of all that "experience"? What about Gore? He was Vice President for 8 years and had more experience at a presidential level than most candidates ever, but somehow he lost it to Bush.

I don't buy this whole experience argument. No one has presidential experience but the president. We have tons of examples of presidents who had lots of governing experience before becoming president, but ended up being awful presidents. Experience means very little here. I look to see who will be the most competent, who is the most intelligent, who has the most knowledge on relevant issues and who has the best plan for the most people.

 

[reilo]

Obviously McCain supporters didn't give up when they were down, so it's kind of dumb for Obama supporters to do that.

Of course, since I've already stated that I prefer McCain to Obama, despite my moral inability to vote for him over Barr, by all means, be crestfallen! Your doom is at hand! Doom doom doom doom doom!

wow

 

[GhaleonEB]

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/2008/09/lawmakers_vote_for_subpoenas_f.php

Alaska lawmakers have voted to subpoena 13 witnesses, including Gov. Sarah Palin's husband, Todd. It's part of the investigation into whether the Republican vice presidential candidate abused her power in trying to get her former brother-in-law fired.

Said retired prosecutor Stephen Branchflower of Todd Palin: "He's such a central figure. ... I think one should be issued for him."

The Senate Judiciary Committee voted 3-2 for the subpoenas.

Branchflower said he wants to interview Palin herself, but did not ask for a subpoena for her.

They actually went through with it. But not Palin herself.

 

[Tim-E]

hay guys, what's goi..............what the hell?!?!?

What's wrong with fivethirtyeight? When did Nevada and New Mexico become red-outlined? Holy crap, I've missed a lot. That map looks an awful lot like 2004.

Oh, and as much as I love seeing far left gaf go in full panic/fear mode (since they're so damned annoying and cocky every other time), it's not fun when it means that Obama might not win.

I called my sister in Penn to ask her about Palin, and she wasn't buying it. She brought up the "it's scary if that woman becomes president" line and everything. She said she reads cnnpolitics.com, though, so I'm guessing she's more involved than the average voter.

NM is still slightly Obama on 538. People are posting the map from electoral-vote with the charts from 538 for some reason.

 

[Zeliard]

hay guys, what's goi..............what the hell?!?!?

What's wrong with fivethirtyeight? When did Nevada and New Mexico become red-outlined? Holy crap, I've missed a lot. That map looks an awful lot like 2004.

Oh, and as much as I love seeing far left gaf go in full panic/fear mode (since they're so damned annoying and cocky every other time), it's not fun when it means that Obama might not win.

I called my sister in Penn to ask her about Palin, and she wasn't buying it. She brought up the "it's scary if that woman becomes president" line and everything. She said she reads cnnpolitics.com, though, so I'm guessing she's more involved than the average voter.

We're elitist, please get the basic talking point right.

 

[Stoney Mason]

Disingenuous, Lincoln was good for blacks because his support for the 13th amendment gave blacks something they never had before but whites did, the explicit right not to be owned. Civil Unions by contrast are a new, specially created status unique to single out gays and stigmatize us as different. Not "worthy" of marriage under the law.

Lincoln did not run on the 13th amendment when first elected into the office. His position was one that evolved. The very process you seem to be afraid of.

 

[CharlieDigital]

wow

Is it any coincidence that this thread gets nearly unreadable once Gaborn, JayDubs, minus, Branuil (am I missing anyone?) start posting in this thread excessively?

 

[Blader]

So now a "more than prevalent" cult following Obama = a cult that thinks Obama is the messiah? People have hated the last eight years. Obama's a young, enthusiastic guy who wants to change things, and people are excited about him. And yet, conservative feel the need to mock liberals because they're excited about their candidate? Give me a break.

What is with you? When I did ever use the word "messiah" in my posts other than "of course Obama isn't treated as the messiah." My point was that liberals praise Obama for his tolerance and reluctance to attack the other side, something that those same liberals--or at least the liberals here--don't practice themselves. See: Anihawk's posts. Or actually, CharlieDigital, whose post above mine very nicely proves my point.

And republicans do the same thing. That's what people who are passionate about things do. They get worked up, their judgement gets clouded, they lose their reasonableness, wtc.

You're still missing the point. Passion does not excuse hypocrisy.

Besides, we're outraged about the way McCain is running a campaign to become the President. You're outraged about the posts people make on message boards.

Again, I'm angry about the attitudes against anyone who doesn't fall in line with the Obama campaign, especially when those same people are so eager to praise Obama for not acting so antagonistic towards his opponents. Like I said before, why don't you learn from your candidate's example.

 

[The Lamonster]

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/2008/09/lawmakers_vote_for_subpoenas_f.php

They actually went through with it. But not Palin herself.

how convenient

 

[speculawyer]

Has the McCain campaign's response to the Palin book banning rumors been discussed here yet? Way to legitimize and lend credence to the claims of book banning! They would have been much better off saying nothing. :lol

I think you are dead on correct . . . they would have been wise to ignore the issue. As is, it gave reporters more to put in their stories.

GOP campaign downplays Palin book-banning inquiry

By GARANCE BURKE, Associated Press Writer Fri Sep 12, 11:59 AM ET

WASILLA, Alaska - The McCain campaign is defending Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin's much-criticized inquiry into banning books at her hometown library, saying her questions were only hypothetical.

Shortly after taking office in 1996 as mayor of Wasilla, a city of about 7,000 people, Palin asked the city's head librarian about banning books. Later, the librarian was notified by Palin that she was being fired, although Palin backed off under pressure.

Palin's alleged attempt at book-banning has been a matter of intense interest since Republican presidential nominee John McCain named her as his running mate last month.

Taylor Griffin, a spokesman for the McCain campaign, said Thursday that Palin asked the head librarian, Mary Ellen Emmons, on three occasions how she would react to attempts at banning books. He said the questions, in the fall of 1996, were hypothetical and entirely appropriate. He said a patron had asked the library to remove a title the year before and the mayor wanted to understand how such disputes were handled.

Records on the city's Web site, however, do not show any books were challenged in Wasilla in the 10 years before Palin took office.

Palin notified Emmons she would be fired in January 1997 because the mayor didn't feel she had the librarian's "full support." Emmons was reinstated the next day after public outcry, according to newspaper reports at the time.

Still, one longtime library staffer recalls that the run-in made everyone fear for their jobs.

"Mayor Palin gave us some terrible moments and some rather gut-wrenching moments, particularly when Mary Ellen said she was going to have to leave," said Cathy Petrie, who managed the children's collection at the time.

Recent outrage has been fueled by Wasilla housewife Anne Kilkenny, whose 2,400-word critique of Palin's legacy as mayor is widely posted on the Internet. Kilkenny described Palin's actions as "out-and-out censorship."

But the McCain campaign, in a statement, said the charge "is categorically false ... Governor Sarah Palin has never asked anyone to ban a book, period."

Emmons, a former Alaska Library Association president who now goes by Mary Ellen Baker, did not return calls seeking comment.

According to the Mat-Su Valley Frontiersman newspaper, Emmons did not mince words when Palin asked her "how I would deal with her saying a book can't be in the library" on Oct. 28, 1996, in a week when the mayor had asked department heads for letters of resignation.

"She asked me if I would object to censorship, and I replied 'Yup'," Emmons told a reporter. "And I told her it would not be just me. This was a constitutional question, and the American Civil Liberties Union would get involved, too."

The Rev. Howard Bess, a liberal Christian preacher in the nearby town of Palmer, said the church Palin and her family attended until 2002, the Wasilla Assembly of God, was pushing to remove his book from local bookstores.

Emmons told him that year that several copies of "Pastor I Am Gay" had disappeared from the library shelves, Bess said.

"Sarah brought pressure on the library about things she didn't like," Bess said. "To believe that my book was not targeted in this is a joke."

Other locals said the dust-up had been blown out of proportion.

"That was many years ago and Sarah never had any intention to ban books," said David Chappel, who served as Palin's deputy mayor for three years. "There were some vocal people in the minority, and it looks like they're still out there."

Jim Rettig, a University of Richmond librarian who heads the Chicago-based American Library Association, suggested that lingering quarrel raises issues that are still relevant as librarians prepare to celebrate Banned Books Week later this month.

"Librarians are very committed to the principles of the First Amendment of the Constitution and that means we don't allow one individual or a group of people to dictate what people can or cannot read," he said. "Most librarians if they got that sort of a question would be curious as to what the intent of the questioner was."

It is called 'chilling free speech' . . . you don't have to ban a book to be effective . . . if you threaten to fire people for not doing what you want (and you show your displeasure towards certain books), it chills free speech.

 

[JayDubya]

Is it any coincidence that this thread gets nearly unreadable once Gaborn, JayDubs, minus, Branuil (am I missing anyone?) start posting in this thread excessively?

So basically, you're saying that people that are unfond of Obama are polluting your lovefest?

 

[reilo]

Is it any coincidence that this thread gets nearly unreadable once Gaborn, JayDubs, minus, Branuil (am I missing anyone?) start posting in this thread excessively?

To be fair, they aren't nearly on the level of minus or 148.5. Those guys are just trolls.

So basically, you're saying that people that are unfond of Obama are polluting your lovefest?

Strike my previous statement.

To be fair, Gaborn and Branduil aren't on the level of minus, 148.5, or JayDubya.Those guys are just trolls.

 

[Fatalah]

Like I said before, why don't you learn from your candidate's example.

Spoiler

"You're a poopie head."- Barack Obama

 

[Gaborn]

Lincoln did not run on the 13th amendment when first elected into the office. His position was one that evolved. The very process you seem to be afraid of.

I wouldn't have supported Lincoln's refusal to consider abolishing slavery either. I would've been cheering Frederick Douglass's abolition movement.

 

[The Lamonster]

To be fair, they aren't nearly on the level of minus or 148.5. Those guys are just trolls.


Strike my previous statement.

To be fair, Gaborn and Branduil aren't on the level of minus, 148.5, or JayDubya.Those guys are just trolls.

so APF is tolerable now? is that the concensus?