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[Frank the Great]

So John McCain will federalize the entire K-12 public school system? What the hell is he trying to say?

Everything he's talking about is complete garbage. It could be interpreted any way. He didn't mention one specific, he was just trying to use rhetoric win over the types of parents that go and scream at teachers if they give their precious son/daughter a bad grade, to let them know he's "on their side."

 

[Deleted member 20415]

So choice over education but not choice over the human body? check.

John McCain speaks like a person that hasn't been in a classroom in decades.

So John McCain will federalize the entire K-12 public school

That's what No Child Left Behind (Thanks EVERYONE in Govt for that one) was a backdoor to do. If a school failed to meet some asinine cutoff on standardized tests... the school was turned over, away from the town to the state or the federal government.

Forget fixing problems locally... Washington knows it all.

Talk to nearly any teacher about how awesome they think NCLB is.

 

[urk]

Everything he's talking about is complete garbage. It could be interpreted any way. He didn't mention one specific, he was just trying to use rhetoric...

First day in politics?

 

[Stoney Mason]

I thought we already fixed education with "no child left behind"...

 

[ZealousD]

y halo thar

 

[Frank the Great]

First day in politics?

Get off it. I still have the right to get mad over this shit.

 

[speculawyer]

Thanks. Maybe I was way off base. I mean, when I read this:

One of the key principles was to keep mortgage rates low so more people could afford homes.

Homeownership is a good thing . . . it gives people their own stake in a community. Why should someone living in government housing or an apartment care if it gets trashed . . . they don't own it. Both Clinton and Bush pushed various homeownership initiatives.

However, you can't bend over backwards to help people into homes if they really can't afford them. And that is part of the problem we have today . . . a combination of low mortgage rates plus extremely lax loan documentation requirements (First no income documentation, then no documentation that you even have a job, etc.) allowed far too many to buy homes that they couldn't afford. Yes, those homebuyers are at fault, they shouldn't do that. However, the lenders are at fault too . . . they never should have made many of those loans.

After way too much easy lending, things started blowing up when the economy slowed, housing prices dropped, and interest rates increased. We may not even be halfway through it yet.

BTW, there is an excellent 'This American Life' bit on the housing debacle that I recommend listening to.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=355

 

[LCGeek]

Urk your post does some good things but it doesn't address the original point about aid for education. What Mccain is describing is fixing other aspects of education that should be done, but he does little to address the point I think Biden was bringing up which is money for higher education. K-12 needs to be fixed but the same could be said for the college system.

 

[AndresON777]

Since I know Obamagaf will appreciate this...

That's pretty awesome actually.

 

[CharlieDigital]

And...

He still says nothing about what he's going to do. Obama has already stated the amount he would dedicate to 0-K education. He's already stated how his tax credits will work for higher education. He's already outlined the specifics of what he's going to do. "I'm going to hold so and so accountable" is not policy talk; it's empty rhetoric.

 

[Funky Papa]

y halo thar

 

[The Blue Jihad]

EDIT: haha wow. The image was just that good, right?!?

 

[soul creator]

:lol at the pic from that Nation article

haha, beaten

 

[ManaByte]

It's one thing to mention it, it's another to actually say something about the issue. Okay, it's the civil rights issue of our era...and??? And?!?!? You have something to follow that up with? Are you going to give tax credits for college students? Are you going to support 0-K education? What's the deal?

Sounds like you didn't watch the speech either.

Education is the civil rights issue of this century. Equal access to public education has been gained. But what is the value of access to a failing school? We need to shake up failed school bureaucracies with competition, empower parents with choice, remove barriers to qualified instructors, attract and reward good teachers, and help bad teachers find another line of work.

When a public school fails to meet its obligations to students, parents deserve a choice in the education of their children. And I intend to give it to them. Some may choose a better public school. Some may choose a private one. Many will choose a charter school. But they will have that choice and their children will have that opportunity.

Senator Obama wants our schools to answer to unions and entrenched bureaucracies. I want schools to answer to parents and students. And when I'm President, they will.

 

[DeadGzuz]

Here is my disappointment with McCain.

For year I apprecieted his ability to break with his party on iddues. Campaign finance reform, torture, immigration, earmarks, etc. Then he runs to the right for the primaries, you can't win the base in the middle. So he flip-flops on all his "maverick" ideals.

Ok, primary is over what does he do? Move back to the middle to get the independents and the moderates? Go for Hilary supporters? NO! He grabs a far right fundie with no experience and a pretty face. He goes to the right even further!

So his base is happy. The Jesus morons are excited, great. Now that leaves all the independents who may be pro-choice, pro-science, etc. for Obama. I hope this backfires on McCain and his Rove handlers. I want candidates who represent mainstream America, not right wing extremist who think creationism is good enough for biology class. I hope McCain loses by 100+ EC votes and Palin is sent packing to Alaska never to be heard from again.

 

[urk]

Get off it. I still have the right to get mad over this shit.

Of course. Get pissed. I wish more people were fuming. Instead of directing their anger at the sweet ass two party bureaucratic system we have going, all the vitriol is vented to one side or the other, in a series of endless, hypocritical criticisms.

But I digress.

McCain's speech was good, but probably not good enough. He got caught trying to dance too far toward independent voters, and much of what he highlighted last night were the very things that had the Republican base questioning his nomination at the early going of his campaign. It seems Palin might be an attempt to further draw in more people who are waffling in the middle, probably women and disenfranchised conservatives, but I don't think she'll be the catalyst he needs to stop Obama's surging popularity in both of those camps.

 

[Door2Dawn]

It's funny how everything has turned around in the election.

Obama been accused of useing empty rhetoric in the primarys and now its McCain being accused of useing empty rhetoric.

 

[Frank the Great]

Education is the civil rights issue of this century. Equal access to public education has been gained. But what is the value of access to a failing school? We need to shake up failed school bureaucracies with competition, empower parents with choice, remove barriers to qualified instructors, attract and reward good teachers, and help bad teachers find another line of work.

When a public school fails to meet its obligations to students, parents deserve a choice in the education of their children. And I intend to give it to them. Some may choose a better public school. Some may choose a private one. Many will choose a charter school. But they will have that choice and their children will have that opportunity.

Senator Obama wants our schools to answer to unions and entrenched bureaucracies. I want schools to answer to parents and students. And when I'm President, they will.

There is not one specific in there. He says "I want this" and "I want that" without explaining how he is going to do it.

HOW is he going to give parents more choices of education? HOW is he going to make schools answer to parents? HOW is he going to do anything without massive federal involvement in education? HOW is he going to do anything with a solidly Democratic legislature?

Like I said before, this is empty rhetoric to appeal to the types of parents who scream at teachers for failing their kids and who blame the teacher's union for all the educational problems in America. I know because there are TONS of people who think like this in South Jersey, and they eat this shit up (coincidentally, I have yet to meet *one* Obama supporter down here.)

 

[Son of Godzilla]

What the hell does that mean?

Edit: Perhaps it is some code words for "I want vouchers so people can send their kids to some whacked out religious schools with tax dollars."?

McCain's constituency complained about little black kids using vouchers to get into good schools. So now it's a civil rights issue.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

Homeownership is a good thing . . . it gives people their own stake in a community. Why should someone living in government housing or an apartment care if it gets trashed . . . they don't own it. Both Clinton and Bush pushed various homeownership initiatives.

However, you can't bend over backwards to help people into homes if they really can't afford them. And that is part of the problem we have today . . . a combination of low mortgage rates plus extremely lax loan documentation requirements (First no income documentation, then no documentation that you even have a job, etc.) allowed far too many to buy homes that they couldn't afford. Yes, those homebuyers are at fault, they shouldn't do that. However, the lenders are at fault too . . . they never should have made many of those loans.

After way too much easy lending, things started blowing up when the economy slowed, housing prices dropped, and interest rates increased. We may not even be halfway through it yet.

BTW, there is an excellent 'This American Life' bit on the housing debacle that I recommend listening to.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=355

I don't get subprime borrowers. If you have a poor credit history and are more likely to default, then why take the risk, especially with high interest rates?

 

[urk]

It's funny how everything has turned around in the election.

Obama been accused of useing empty rhetoric in the primarys and now its McCain being accused of useing empty rhetoric.

And McCain, who hammered Obama for his lack of experience, chose and inexperience VP while Obama, who slammed McCain for being part of the tired, old establishment, went with a thirty year man.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Sounds like you didn't watch the speech either.

I'm sometimes not so hot at understanding polispeak, but what is he saying? What's the policy proposal? That sounds like a vague way to reiterate Bush's charter school voucher proposals as way to give people "choice".

 

[Frank the Great]

And McCain, who hammered Obama for his lack of experience, chose and inexperience VP while Obama, who slammed McCain for being part of the tired, old establishment, went with a thirty year man.

Shows how ridiculous all of these arguments are, on both sides.

I'm sometimes not so hot at understanding polispeak, but what is he saying? That sounds like a vague way to reiterate Bush's charter school voucher proposals as way to give people "choice".

He's not saying anything. He won't touch education if elected.

 

[NullPointer]

There is not one specific in there. He says "I want this" and "I want that" without explaining how he is going to do it.

HOW is he going to give parents more choices of education? HOW is he going to make schools answer to parents? HOW is he going to do anything without massive federal involvement in education? HOW is he going to do anything with a solidly Democratic legislature?

Vouchers, vouchers, vouchers, vouchers.

Vouchers as far as the eye can see.

That and firing teachers. Who I guess will be retrained in community colleges to work in the other jobs "of today". Ya know, the ones that "won't go away".

And a random aside. I told you freaks it was "knows", not "nose":

She's helped run a small business, worked with her hands and knows what it's like to worry about mortgage payments and health care and the cost of gasoline and groceries.

 

[Slurpy]

Oh no. Jack Cafferty's wife died.

What?? How?? Can't find anything about it online. Poor guy.

He is, by a large margin, the best fucking person on CNN. He actually cuts the bullshit and tells it how it is without going the faux-objectivity approach. The only person that actually seems to get enraged about things that one SHOULD be enraged about.

 

[CharlieDigital]

Sounds like you didn't watch the speech either.

Sounds like you didn't read it yourself.

Answer me this: What choice?? What are the choices? How will they work? What is the policy?

"I'm going to give them choice" What choices? How will it work? Who gets the choice?
"I'm going to hold people accountable" How will you do it? Accountable for what?

It's rhetoric because there are no numbers involved. Obama says he'll put higher education in the forefront of his campaign. How? $4000 tax credit to qualifying individuals. Obama says he'll create a 0-K education program. How? He'll dedicate $10 billion to these programs.

Where is the meat of the McCain proposals? Where?

 

[Deleted member 20415]

Honestly... good luck firing teachers. Do I think some teachers have outstayed their welcome and are poor at their job? You bet your ass...

But when you start calling for teachers jobs, you're going to get the unions all over your ass.

That's not what you want to do.

 

[PrivateWHudson]

He still says nothing about what he's going to do. Obama has already stated the amount he would dedicate to 0-K education. He's already stated how his tax credits will work for higher education. He's already outlined the specifics of what he's going to do. "I'm going to hold so and so accountable" is not policy talk; it's empty rhetoric.

That bring up and interesting question. What is the deal with Obama's 0-K program? It sounds like he's trying to get even the youngest of kids into school and away from their parents. Maybe is just me being old fashioned, but wouldn't it make more sense to try and lower taxes and raise wages so one parent can stay home and raise the kids?

Sounds too much like government incentives to get rid of your kids. However, I really don't know and could very easily be wrong.

 

[Pakkidis]

Republicans thought they were being smart mocking community organizing. But what they didn't understand is that their smug comments weren't simply an attack on Barack Obama, but on the entire grassroots chain of change that has, for over 200 years, made America a more democratic and humane country.

As a Canadian I am boggled how people can support Republicans with the amount of hypocrisy that the party dishes out. How is it in the information age people still don't have access to reliable information?

Watching samatha bee talk to the republicans only further reinforces that many of these people have no idea what the issues are and believe anything.

Palin has foreign policy because Alaska is close to Russia.......REALLY, thats pathetic, utterly pathetic. As one republican supporter said "she stares in the eyes of Putin" Does Putin even know who this governor is?

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I don't get subprime borrowers. If you have a poor credit history and are more likely to default, then why take the risk, especially with high interest rates?

It's understandable to say that borrowers should have known better. However, it's also easy to understand that it's kind of silly to place the burden of responsibility strictly on the borrower when that's the entire purpose of credit checks to begin with.

I want a house. I decide that I'm going to see if I can buy it. The bank says it's going to grant me this loan, and here's what I'm going to be paying with my initially low, but not fixed interest rate. Do you really expect me to go through the fine print and make sure that I can afford it? No, I want a house, and this bank is allowing me to do so. Clearly, I can afford it or else the bank wouldn't be giving me the loan.

 

[The Blue Jihad]

Vouchers, vouchers, vouchers, vouchers.

Vouchers as far as the eye can see.

That and firing teachers. Who I guess will be retrained in community colleges to work in the other jobs "of today". Ya know, the ones that "won't go away".

And a random aside. I told you freaks it was "knows", not "nose":

Pisses me off. This bullshit line of McCain's "Obama wants entrenched bureaucrats to control schools" downright asinine moron retard bumfuck schtick. Sorry. The only reason that entrenched bureaucrats have ANY control over schools is due to that piece of crap No Child Left Behind...the same piece of legislation that Obama wants to rip out of our education policy. He wants to REMOVE the entrenched bureaucrats.

UGH

 

[Clevinger]

As a Canadian I am boggled how people can support Republicans with the amount of hypocrisy that the party dishes out. How is it in the information age people still don't have access to reliable information?

Because our media is shit, basically.

 

[Arrowgigantic]

That and firing teachers. Who I guess will be retrained in community colleges to work in the other jobs "of today". Ya know, the ones that "won't go away".

You mean like "governor" and "vice-presidential candidate"? Palin spent three semesters in two different community colleges majoring in "General Studies", which is like I guess a code word for awesome executive responsibility training.

But I have to say, the job market is pretty thin for that.

 

[Slurpy]

Shows how ridiculous all of these arguments are, on both sides.



He's not saying anything. He won't touch education if elected.

This.

I can't believe people don't see through all the bullshit pandering in that speech. He used almost every cliche available in his speech, without offering a single specific. You could tell he was really trying to look like he actually believed what he was saying.

 

[CharlieDigital]

That bring up and interesting question. What is the deal with Obama's 0-K program? It sounds like he's trying to get even the youngest of kids into school and away from their parents.

Obama's comprehensive "Zero to Five" plan will provide critical support to young children and their parents. Unlike other early childhood education plans, Obama's plan places key emphasis at early care and education for infants, which is essential for children to be ready to enter kindergarten. Obama will create Early Learning Challenge Grants to promote state "zero to five" efforts and help states move toward voluntary, universal pre-school.

In my view, the reality is that in many metro areas, it's simply not possible to live on one wage alone for the majority of Americans. I mean, when even a seasoned teacher in NJ makes $35-45K and small starter houses and townhouses start at $300K, single earner families are not financially viable for most families these days.

It's a different story in middle and rural America where a $50K salary will carry you much further, but in metro NJ, $50K is not a lot.

 

[AndresON777]

Because our media is shit, basically.

And the Republicans have church leaders in their pockets.

 

[devilhawk]

There is not one specific in there. He says "I want this" and "I want that" without explaining how he is going to do it.

HOW is he going to give parents more choices of education? HOW is he going to make schools answer to parents? HOW is he going to do anything without massive federal involvement in education? HOW is he going to do anything with a solidly Democratic legislature?

Like I said before, this is empty rhetoric to appeal to the types of parents who scream at teachers for failing their kids and who blame the teacher's union for all the educational problems in America. I know because there are TONS of people who think like this in South Jersey, and they eat this shit up (coincidentally, I have yet to meet *one* Obama supporter down here.)

Dude, you need a reality check. Acceptance speeches are never specific. They aren't like the State of the Union address. The mention policies, yes, but it is still mostly about the platform and the direction. Acceptance speeches have never really been oratory versions of legislative bills. Now, after reading McCain's idea of education reform, read from Obama's speech. Obviously you won't agree on how McCain is approaching it, but nonetheless.

Michelle and I are only here tonight because we were given a chance at an education. And I will not settle for an America where some kids don't have that chance. I'll invest in early childhood education. I'll recruit an army of new teachers, and pay them higher salaries and give them more support. And in exchange, I'll ask for higher standards and more accountability. And we will keep our promise to every young American, if you commit to serving your community or your country, we will make sure you can afford a college education.

Obama was just as vague. Now, before you say Obama has given specifics at other times, we are still comparing the speeches alone.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Walter Reed - the middle school, not the hospital - isn't very happy about the snafu last night.

"It has been brought to the school's attention that a picture of the front of our school, Walter Reed Middle School, was used as a backdrop at the Republican National Convention. Permission to use the front of our school for the Republican National Convention was not given by our school nor is the use of our school's picture an endorsement of any political party or view."

One other interesting development: The California Democratic Party is actually holding a press conference in front of the school within minutes, where Dems will hit McCain for not knowing the difference between the school and Walter Reed Medical Center, which is believed to be the backdrop the McCain campaign really wanted.

They probably won't be happy about that press conference either.

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/school_raps_mccain_for_using_i.php

 

[CharlieDigital]

Obama was just as vague. Now, before you say Obama has given specifics at other times, we are still comparing the speeches alone.

I'll give you that he didn't give the specific numbers in this speech, but the details are still more palpable than the McCain tidbits.

How is he going to make early education better? He's going to invest in early education.
How is he going to address the quality of education? Higher teacher salaries (better retention and attract more qualified individuals who would otherwise work in private industry).
And he touches on his service for money proposal for higher education.

We're also talking about a guy who graduated from Harvard Law near the top of his class while coming from a middle class background; I'll put a lot more credibility in his statement in this area then anything McCain says.

 

[qwertybob]

And the Republicans have church leaders in their pockets.

vice versa works too

 

[Pakkidis]

Just out of curiosity, has there ever been a study about education level/religion/income level compared to what party you support?

My personal opinion is that Dem supporters have a higher and better quality education than Reps. Would like some facts if possible.

 

[syllogism]

Biden

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26563623#26563623

 

[StopMakingSense]

I don't get subprime borrowers. If you have a poor credit history and are more likely to default, then why take the risk, especially with high interest rates?

edit: ugh, I fail at reading. I thought you were talking about lenders.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Obama was just as vague. Now, before you say Obama has given specifics at other times, we are still comparing the speeches alone.

I agree that's also detail-free, but to be fair, you can at least parse some policy positions there. Obama will:

--Invest more money in early childhood development
--Increase pay for teachers
--Provide financial aid to college students in exchange for service

The details behind those proposals were not discussed in his speech, but at least there are proposals there.

I ask again: what was McCain proposing? School vouchers? (That's my only guess.)

 

[reilo]

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

Mathews just compared McCain to Mrs Doubtfire.

"Have you ever seen Mrs Doubtfire? Robin Williams, comes back as a nanny, after having failed in his marriage, failed his kids, and he comes back a little different to try and make things better. Is John McCain trying the Mrs Doubtfire strategy?"

He segmented that into his point that why we should give the republicans another 4 years after they failed us for 8 straight.

 

[ViperVisor]

Chris can't help but make movie comparisons.

McCain trying to pull a Mrs. Doubtfire

 

[Clevinger]

Walter Reed - the middle school, not the hospital - isn't very happy about the snafu last night.


They probably won't be happy about that press conference either.

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/school_raps_mccain_for_using_i.php

I don't know, it seems like a pretty innocent mistake for both democrats and the school to get pissy about.

 

[typhonsentra]

It's funny how everything has turned around in the election.

Obama been accused of useing empty rhetoric in the primarys and now its McCain being accused of useing empty rhetoric.

That's the thing though, the claim carried over from the primaries but the thing is that McCain NEVER had detailed proposals. He's always been pretty vague with what he wants to do, other than cutting taxes UNLIKE OBAMA lol.

 

[PrivateWHudson]

In my view, the reality is that in many metro areas, it's simply not possible to live on one wage alone for the majority of Americans. I mean, when even a seasoned teacher in NJ makes $35-45K and small starter houses and townhouses start at $300K, single earner families are not financially viable for most families these days.

I guess that's where I really differ with the liberal point of view. Instead of fixing the problem of low wages and ridiculous housing prices, we should just take more tax dollars and trow them at the problem? In turn, we're braking up the family unit which will lead to worse problems down the line. Voluntary is great, but when more people take this option, more families will have both parents working, and housing will keep going up making this option necessary for even more people.

BTW, my income is in that range, and I decided to live in a less desirable area than I would have like to be able to make ends meet. It's very possible to find an affordable home and not resort to interest only loans if you actually try.

 

[devilhawk]

Just out of curiosity, has there ever been a study about education level/religion/income level compared to what party you support?

My personal opinion is that Dem supporters have a higher and better quality education than Reps. Would like some facts if possible.

There have been socioeconomic studies. Education alone would obviously point more to democrats at the top. With a socioeconomic study, where wealth/success is also meaningful, I believe it evens out more.