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PoliGAF Interim Thread of USA General Elections (DAWN OF THE VEEP)

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PHOTOS: McCain's townhall meeting in St. Paul tonight.

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There were free butterscotch candies for all.

mccain_butterscotch.jpg
 

Mumei

Member
Gaborn said:
The way I look at it is sort of how I view my grandmother. She refers to brazil nuts as... well, you can look up the term some people use. She's supporting Obama but she wasn't really comfortable about it. She treats black people nicely in public but mostly avoids them and kind of whispers about them, not in a mean way, but in an uncomfortable way. if a black person comes up in a conversation she'll mention their race very specifically. I mean, I love her to death, that she's still alive and reasonably healthy at her age (early 90s) is pretty amazing, and I hope she lives a lot longer. But the truth is she's a product of her generation and would probably qualify as racist, even though she tries not to be. She means well, and she certainly treats people with dignity and respect publicly... but you know that it's a struggle for her because of how she was raised.

Still though, my view is that people like my grandmother, though she's a wonderful person, and though she tries to be fair to everyone... I'd say she's a racist, even though I'd NEVER call her that, and even though she's a product of her generation and doesn't really hate black people, she just doesn't know how to cope. That's sort of how I view civil union supporters and gay marriage opponents. They don't know how to cope, they're unwilling to grant equality. They're not bad people, but they're not hateful. To me that's being a bigot on the issue, but I understand that they're a product of their upbringing.

I see.

Well, when I think of the term bigot, I think of something so immensely negative that you only accuse someone of when they *really* are a bigot - and I think a lot of other people in this topic feel that way about the term, which is why there is a reaction that you're engaging in a bit of hyperbole by calling him a bigot.

But you're probably aware of all that, I'd imagine.
 

Gaborn

Member
reilo said:
I honestly believe that the entire word "marriage" should be barred from any legal documents and be used only as a symbol.

Ie, graduation is a term used for an event celebrating those who receive a diploma of any kind. It is not a legal term. The word marriage should be treated as such, because right now, that's the only fucking thing people are arguing.

Nobody is even arguing whether or not he proposed civil unions laws will offer gay people the same rights - which I don't even know if anyone is disputing that. That's what is important.

Oh hey, I'm officially a "naturalized citizen" as I immigrated into the United States ten years ago. Do I give a shit? No because I have the same passport as everyone else. The only difference is that I cannot run for the United States Presidency if I so aspire [which I don't], but otherwise the rights afforded to me are the same.

I'd support that as well, but I know and you know that will never happen, straight couples won't support that at all, if anything my guess is it polls worse than gay marriage.

Mumei - Yes, I am aware and I understand that side of it. But at some point it's a question of basic human dignity and I see advocacy of second class citizenship as inherently bigoted. I understand that some people view the term as taboo and more reserved and in truth I'm not always as public about it, but at some point it does boil down to bigotry, even if it's not a particularly polite thing to say.
 

Tamanon

Banned
I don't know why he even really calls it a town hall, they're all invitation only.:lol

Mumei: I think it was so he could personally cross out the "habeus corpus" part.
 

Mumei

Member
reilo said:
I honestly believe that the entire word "marriage" should be barred from any legal documents and be used only as a symbol.

Ie, graduation is a term used for an event celebrating those who receive a diploma of any kind. It is not a legal term. The word marriage should be treated as such, because right now, that's the only fucking thing people are arguing.

Nobody is even arguing whether or not he proposed civil unions laws will offer gay people the same rights - which I don't even know if anyone is disputing that. That's what is important.

Oh hey, I'm officially a "naturalized citizen" as I immigrated into the United States ten years ago. Do I give a shit? No because I have the same passport as everyone else. The only difference is that I cannot run for the United States Presidency if I so aspire [which I don't], but otherwise the rights afforded to me are the same.

As I'm sure many other people will say, I'd support this entirely, but I think it's a nonstarter.
 

Mumei

Member
Tamanon said:
I don't know why he even really calls it a town hall, they're all invitation only.:lol

Mumei: I think it was so he could personally cross out the "habeus corpus" part.

:lol

George Will said:
McCain, co-author of the McCain-Feingold law that abridges the right of free political speech, has referred disparagingly to, as he puts it, "quote 'First Amendment rights.' " Now he dismissively speaks of "so-called, quote 'habeas corpus suits.' " He who wants to reassure constitutionalist conservatives that he understands the importance of limited government should be reminded why the habeas right has long been known as "the great writ of liberty."

No state power is more fearsome than the power to imprison. Hence the habeas right has been at the heart of the centuries-long struggle to constrain governments, a struggle in which the greatest event was the writing of America's Constitution, which limits Congress's power to revoke habeas corpus to periods of rebellion or invasion. Is it, as McCain suggests, indefensible to conclude that Congress exceeded its authority when, with the Military Commissions Act (2006), it withdrew any federal court jurisdiction over the detainees' habeas claims?

As the conservative and libertarian Cato Institute argued in its amicus brief in support of the petitioning detainees, habeas, in the context of U.S. constitutional law, "is a separation of powers principle" involving the judicial and executive branches. The latter cannot be the only judge of its own judgment.

In Marbury v. Madison (1803), which launched and validated judicial supervision of America's democratic government, Chief Justice John Marshall asked: "To what purpose are powers limited, and to what purpose is that limitation committed to writing, if these limits may, at any time, be passed by those intended to be restrained?" Those are pertinent questions for McCain, who aspires to take the presidential oath to defend the Constitution.

Not usually a fan of George's, but he's spot on here.
 
WickedAngel said:
All we need is Kryptonite and we'll have the trifecta of crocodile tears and faux, sensationalist outrage.

Don't tell me that I don't have a right to be angry, or that I'm faking it. If you don't agree, fine. But you need to deal with the fact that some people will not tolerate discrimination in any form.

Door2Dawn said:
Stop being stupid,hes not discriminating against anyone.

Yes he is. He is discriminating against gays.
 

Tamanon

Banned
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/20/new-questions-over-mccain_n_108204.html

The Davis lobbying firm offered political consulting services to the pro-Russian "Party of Regions" inside Ukraine. (To do so, the firm did not have to register as a "foreign agent" under U.S. law, because it was operating outside the United States.) The Party of Regions wound up on the wrong side of the 2004 "Orange Revolution" that captured many a heart in the West (including John McCain's). Since then, the firm, which Davis co-founded, has been described as instrumental in organizing a political comeback for the once-discredited Party of Regions, which emerged victorious in 2006 legislative elections.

Former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Steven Pifer told The Huffington Post that, in between the Party of Regions' 2004 loss and its 2006 victory, there was "an influx of the Davis-Manafort team." Pifer was not on the ground in Ukraine for the 2006 polls, but he recounted that "there was more of an American air" to the Ukrainians working with Davis-Manafort, and that they presented a more refined, media-savvy image.

Pifer later witnessed a December 2006 talk given in Washington, D.C. by the new Ukranian prime minister, who brought Davis's lobbying partner Paul Manafort along in tow as part of his entourage. Speaking to the Huffington Post about that event, Pifer said he noticed with interest that the new prime minister's presentation was "polished and confident...and was tuned to have resonance with Americans."

And while McCain claimed in 2007 not to have known about the work of his campaign manager's firm in Ukraine until December 2006, a Washington Post report from earlier this year described how the non-profit Reform Institute, which McCain helped start up, actually shared office space with Davis-Manafort in January of 2006 -- the precise time the lobbying outfit was preparing for the March 2006 parliamentary elections in Ukraine.

Moreover, the New York Times reported last week that a National Security Council official contacted McCain's Senate office in 2005 "to complain that Mr. Davis's lobbying firm was undercutting American foreign policy in Ukraine." The Ukrainian candidate being aided by Davis-Manafort had close ties to then Russian president Vladimir Putin, and both McCain and President Bush supported his opponent.

And McCain keeps bitching about random tangential associations of Obama people:lol
 
reilo said:
I honestly believe that the entire word "marriage" should be barred from any legal documents and be used only as a symbol.

Ie, graduation is a term used for an event celebrating those who receive a diploma of any kind. It is not a legal term. The word marriage should be treated as such, because right now, that's the only fucking thing people are arguing.

Nobody is even arguing whether or not he proposed civil unions laws will offer gay people the same rights - which I don't even know if anyone is disputing that. That's what is important.

Oh hey, I'm officially a "naturalized citizen" as I immigrated into the United States ten years ago. Do I give a shit? No because I have the same passport as everyone else. The only difference is that I cannot run for the United States Presidency if I so aspire [which I don't], but otherwise the rights afforded to me are the same.

You've got it all wrong. You are being treated like a second class citizen and anyone who says otherwise is a bigot (Including yourself...since you did. You're bigoted against yourself.) Now you can feel free to cite all sorts of wildly absurd examples to illustrate the scale of your oppression. Jewish people were given different titles during the Holocaust; why not cite the Holocaust as a platform of comparison for the difference between "civil union" and "marriage"? It doesn't really matter that the circumstances of their suffering were infinitely more extreme than the current issue so long as that vague similarity exists.

kame-sennin said:
Don't tell me that I don't have a right to be angry, or that I'm faking it. If you don't agree, fine. But you need to deal with the fact that some people will not tolerate discrimination in any form.

You need to deal with the fact that having the same rights as everyone else excludes you from having the right to claim you're being discriminated against. The "Naturalized Citizen" Vs. "Citizen" is a perfect example of this.
 

Kusagari

Member
kame-sennin said:
I find a major presidential candidate openly discriminating against homosexuals to be downright offensive to me for some reason.

If Obama wanting civil unions is 'discriminating' then tell me what the hell McCain is.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Aight guys, I think we've hashed through all the arguments already and nobody's changing minds any time soon, I think we can give this one a rest:p
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
Look, black people in the United States [and all over the world] along with women did not get the same rights as white men in one night. It sucks and it's not right, but that's how the history of the United States has progressed.

Have you noticed that there was a bigger outcry before California allowed gays to marry than after? You know why that is? Because people really don't give a shit and they just let their ignorance get the best of them over, and once the laws have been passed and give that group of people the same rights as everyone else, then that ignorant group gives up. They talk a lot, but walk nowhere.

Accept the civil union law, because it is the best you will get right now and it will make you legally secure with your loved one. Then, five to ten years from now when the dust has settled and after the world is still spinning in circles like it always has, push for it to be called marriage.

You bet your ass nobody will care then and they just look back at the day civil union laws were enacted and proclaim "what did we argue about all this time?"
 

Gaborn

Member
Kusagari said:
If Obama wanting civil unions is 'discriminating' then tell me what the hell McCain is.

Also discriminating, also a bigot.

reilo said:
Accept the civil union law, because it is the best you will get right now and it will make you legally secure with your loved one. Then, five to ten years from now when the dust has settled and after the world is still spinning in circles like it always has, push for it to be called marriage.

Except at that point there will be even more people telling us its "just semantics" and a "faux outrage" debate. Afterall, if it's not worth fighting for NOW what will make it worth fighting for then? The same arguments people like Wicked Angel is using for us to accept civil unions is the same arguments that will be 10 times as loud in ten years once we've been taken most of the way to equality. After alll, why WON'T that be "good enough" to the majority of straight America that has the word marriage and the dignity that comes with it? Oh, there I go with my "faux outrage" again.
 

Gaborn

Member
Tamanon said:
BTW, you never answered me, do you consider Ron Paul a bigot?

Yes and no. On a personal level on the issue of gay marriage, yes. However, he did say he'd leave it to the states if elected and that makes it much less of an issue rather than enshrining his view in federal statutes.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Gaborn said:
Yes and no. On a personal level on the issue of gay marriage, yes. However, he did say he'd leave it to the states if elected and that makes it much less of an issue rather than enshrining his view in federal statutes.

So then the exact position that Obama holds. Just making sure we were clear on this. Thanks!

Well except for the whole anti-sodomy kick he went on in Texas, but that was just a weird time for him.
 

Gaborn

Member
Tamanon said:
So then the exact position that Obama holds. Just making sure we were clear on this. Thanks!

No, that's NOT the exact position Obama holds. Obama isn't willing to leave the issue to the states, he's publicly advocating for civil unions at the FEDERAL level to be recognized (incidentally, I don't believe I've ever heard him say whether gay marriages performed in massachusetts or california would be recognized by the federal government. Have you? If not... that's not leaving it to the states, that's George Bush and a de facto FMA.)

And as for the "anti-sodomy kick" if you're referring to those news letters, it's clear to the majority of reporters on the issue the writing style doesn't match his, it wasn't him.
 

Door2Dawn

Banned
Tamanon said:
Aight guys, I think we've hashed through all the arguments already and nobody's changing minds any time soon, I think we can give this one a rest:p
Yeah its really no point in arguing,California was a huge victory for gay people. But I'm afraid there going to have to wait a few years for the whole country to recognize gay marriage. It toke blacks years to get fully equal rights.
 

Mumei

Member
reilo said:
Look, black people in the United States [and all over the world] along with women did not get the same rights as white men in one night. It sucks and it's not right, but that's how the history of the United States has progressed.

Have you noticed that there was a bigger outcry before California allowed gays to marry than after? You know why that is? Because people really don't give a shit and they just let their ignorance get the best of them over, and once the laws have been passed and give that group of people the same rights as everyone else, then that ignorant group gives up. They talk a lot, but walk nowhere.

No, I didn't notice that. I remembered the ballot measure to get marriage defined as between a man and a woman enshrined in the state constitution gaining quite a bit of support post-gay marriage decision. And I recall that after the Massachusetts decision, there was an immediate backlash that didn't completely subside in the polling for a good 2 years.

Accept the civil union law, because it is the best you will get right now and it will make you legally secure with your loved one. Then, five to ten years from now when the dust has settled and after the world is still spinning in circles like it always has, push for it to be called marriage.

You bet your ass nobody will care then and they just look back at the day civil union laws were enacted and proclaim "what did we argue about all this time?"

... You don't actually believe that that's how it will work, do you? =\

I honestly don't expect people to see civil unions and think, "Eh, we might as well let them get marriage, too." I expect people will take your position and tell us to stop bitching about the terms.

If we cannot get marriage now - and I believe we cannot - then I'd prefer waiting and getting it later, rather than doing a half measure like civil unions.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Gaborn said:
No, that's NOT the exact position Obama holds. Obama isn't willing to leave the issue to the states, he's publicly advocating for civil unions at the FEDERAL level to be recognized (incidentally, I don't believe I've ever heard him say whether gay marriages performed in massachusetts or california would be recognized by the federal government. Have you? If not... that's not leaving it to the states, that's George Bush and a de facto FMA.)

And as for the "anti-sodomy kick" if you're referring to those news letters, it's clear to the majority of reporters on the issue the writing style doesn't match his, it wasn't him.

No I was referring to his support of the Texas anti-gay sodomy law saying that the state constitution did not guarantee a right to gay sodomy.

Obama has said that civil unions are recognized on a federal level, for all federal benefits, but the marriage label is up to the states.

Mumei: I look at it as the same thing that happened in civil rights, first it was unequal rights, then it was brought up to separate but equal , then it was transitioned to full equality with no separation. My theory on why it'll take a bit of time is that the older generation is the most resistant to it, and they hold the most voting power.
 

Gaborn

Member
Door2Dawn said:
Yeah its really no point in arguing,California was a huge victory for gay people. But I'm afraid there going to have to wait a few years for the whole country to recognize gay marriage. It toke blacks years to get fully equal rights.

Yeah, at least 4, and probably 8 years. Maybe the next round of presidential candidates will have one that supports equality.

Tamanon - Interesting, I'd have to see his rationale although I will say that states can do what they want free of federal interference - though Lawrence was the correct legal decision and that's the role of the courts. Also:

Obama has said that civil unions are recognized on a federal level, for all federal benefits, but the marriage label is up to the states.

Ok, but that's not really in question. So Massachusetts and California has legalized gay marriages. Will Obama's administration recognize that fact and give those couples the federal rights of marriage even though he doesn't support gay marriage? or will he only give rights to gay couples in states like Vermont and Connecticut that have civil unions?
 

Tamanon

Banned
Gaborn said:
Yeah, at least 4, and probably 8 years. Maybe the next round of presidential candidates will have one that supports equality.

Tamanon - Interesting, I'd have to see his rationale although I will say that states can do what they want free of federal interference - though Lawrence was the correct legal decision and that's the role of the courts. Also:



Ok, but that's not really in question. So Massachusetts and California has legalized gay marriages. Will Obama's administration recognize that fact and give those couples the federal rights of marriage even though he doesn't support gay marriage? or will he only give rights to gay couples in states like Vermont and Connecticut that have civil unions?

He will give them the federal rights of marriage, just not the title marriage. That's why I said all federal benefits of marriage. Of course this is all assuming congress goes along, but I don't see why they wouldn't.
 

Gaborn

Member
Tamanon said:
He will give them the federal rights of marriage, just not the title marriage. That's why I said all federal benefits of marriage. Of course this is all assuming congress goes along, but I don't see why they wouldn't.

So basically you're saying Obama thinks he has the power to rename a legal relationship issued by the state to not be marriage? because... that's not really a federal power. The state is calling them marriages, the federal government can't just pick out a certain class of people and call their relationship a civil union because Obama doesn't approve of them. The state has the power to name their relationship as they wish and the federal government either recognizes the state doing so or it... doesn't. So what is obama's position on gay marriages in California and Massachusetts?
 

Tamanon

Banned
Goddamn, McCain just can't win for losing:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonat...s_secret_meeting_with_Hispanics.html#comments

The predictable lede bound to irk some on the right:
Republican presidential John McCain assured Hispanic leaders he would push through Congress legislation to overhaul federal immigration laws if elected, several people who attended a private meeting with the candidate said Thursday.


And, apparently, it's just McCain's luck that the head of the Minutemen in Illinois happens to be, you guessed it, Latino:
"He's one John McCain in front of white Republicans. And he's a different John McCain in front of Hispanics," complained Rosanna Pulido, a Hispanic and conservative Republican who attended the meeting.

Pulido, who heads the Illinois Minuteman Project, which advocates for restrictive immigration laws, said she thought McCain was "pandering to the crowd" by emphasizing immigration reform in his 15-minute speech.

"He's having his private meetings to rally Hispanics and to tell them what they want to hear," she said. "I'm outraged that he would reach out to me as a Hispanic but not as a conservative."

It's one of the problems of McCain's shifting immigration reform policy.

Gaborn: Basically it would mean that a civil union would also include in the definition, state recognized gay marriage. Your parsing is really weird, but I understand what you're attempting to do. Besides, isn't the Federal government already doing what you're accusing Obama of doing? In that they aren't recognizing state marriages.
 
WickedAngel said:
You need to deal with the fact that having the same rights as everyone else excludes you from having the right to claim you're being discriminated against. The "Naturalized Citizen" Vs. "Citizen" is a perfect example of this.

Civil unions have never granted all the rights of marriage, and enacting such a thing is much more difficult than it seems as there would be countless legal statutes that need to be individually referenced in any civil union legislation. Moreover, creating a second institution, even one that grants equal rights, is still discrimination as it discriminates based on sexual orientation.

Kusagari said:
If Obama wanting civil unions is 'discriminating' then tell me what the hell McCain is.

Um... worse?

Democrats need to break out of their either/or horserace mentality. It's quite possible (nay, probable) that both candidates are shit. You can criticize one without supporting the other.
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
Gaborn said:
So basically you're saying Obama thinks he has the power to rename a legal relationship issued by the state to not be marriage? because... that's not really a federal power. The state is calling them marriages, the federal government can't just pick out a certain class of people and call their relationship a civil union because Obama doesn't approve of them. The state has the power to name their relationship as they wish and the federal government either recognizes the state doing so or it... doesn't. So what is obama's position on gay marriages in California and Massachusetts?

What? No. He's giving them federal legal rights awarded to married couples but just under the term "civil unions." If a state chooses to call the act of two people eloping "marriage", then that's the legal name that the couple [gay or straight] is awarded. Obama's plan is not renaming that.

It specifically deals with just the federal side of marriage/civil unions.

Again, NOMENCLATURE!!!!!!!
 

thekad

Banned
Mumei: Civil unions aren't just a half-way house to marriage; it's next door.

If you're willing to wait for the next Democratic president and the next clear Democratic majority in Congress for the possibility that not only will you get the same rights and privileges of marriage, but the name attached, then you might be waiting a while. Meanwhile, thousands upon thousands of gay couples will be living without those rights and those privileges. Because it isn't called "marriage" and that isn't good enough.
 
kame-sennin said:
Civil unions have never granted all the rights of marriage, and enacting such a thing is much more difficult than it seems as there would be countless legal statutes that need to be individually referenced in any civil union legislation. Moreover, creating a second institution, even one that grants equal rights, is still discrimination as it discriminates based on sexual orientation.

Discrimination is an act that is in favor or against a certain group of people; a neutral stance by the government that allows them to have the same institution under two separate names does not qualify under the accepted definition of the term. By your usage, the government would be discriminating against religious conservatives who feel that marriage is reserved for a man and a woman.
 

Mumei

Member
Tamanon said:
Mumei: I look at it as the same thing that happened in civil rights, first it was unequal rights, then it was brought up to separate but equal , then it was transitioned to full equality with no separation. My theory on why it'll take a bit of time is that the older generation is the most resistant to it, and they hold the most voting power.

Yeah, I understand the historical comparison you, reilo, and I think WickedAngel have been alluding to / pointing out; I'm just not sure that the comparison is quite the same, because, as other posters pointed out, in the de jure sense, civil unions (if enacted at the federal level) would be essentially equal to marriage.

With the separate but "equal" stage with regards to The (capitalized) Civil Rights movement, there was clear inequality at the legal level. There was a clear problem there for anyone to see; with the civil unions vs. marriage debate, once you achieve de jure equality, it becomes a very muddled and difficult to argue case about the social benefits of marriage, the symbolic message it sends not to include gays and lesbians in the institution, etc., etc.

I understand the argument; I just feel like, I might prefer seeing us skip over the civil unions stage completely (even if that means waiting an extra 5 - 10 years before seeing any sort of federal coverage for homosexual relationships) over the risk of muddying the debate and making it more difficult to get that last step in.
 

Tamanon

Banned
I dunno, I'd look at it this way, 4 years ago, did you even think that we were in spitting distance of even just civil unions and states actually switching to marriage? It's progress, that's for sure. The sad truth is the last time we had a major shift in how rights are applied to people was 9/11, that kinda set back a lot of other progress we were working on because it mobilized the wrong kind of attitudes. The response afterwards in the media and by the government was one of "those that are different hate us for our freedoms". That meant that anyone that argued for MORE freedoms for us was labeled as subversive and freedom-hating. We're finally breaking out of that shell, but it's still a tightrope.

Oh and I forgot the role that renewed religious power played in it, especially since a lot of churches took on a more intolerant and blame-seeking tact.
 

Gaborn

Member
Tamanon said:
Goddamn, McCain just can't win for losing:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonat...s_secret_meeting_with_Hispanics.html#comments



It's one of the problems of McCain's shifting immigration reform policy.

McCain's basically a shitty candidate in a lot of ways, but he's not going to win Illinois in the first place and I'm not sure that's a national issue yet hurting him.

Gaborn: Basically it would mean that a civil union would also include in the definition, state recognized gay marriage. Your parsing is really weird, but I understand what you're attempting to do. Besides, isn't the Federal government already doing what you're accusing Obama of doing? In that they aren't recognizing state marriages.

Well, it's not that I'm trying to parse this too much, I'm just saying that... look, separation of powers, right? Different states have different laws. And, interestingly, different states laws apply to other states in part and not in part (for example, a person too young to marry in one state but not a neighboring state can, in theory (Mann Act applications permitting) be married in the neighboring state and return as a married person to their original/home state. Perfectly legally, recognized in all 50 states and by the federal government even if the married person is below the federally recognized age of consent.

And the reason the federal age of consent doesn't apply to marriages is simple, because the federal government legally recognizes all marriages between men and women in the 50 states. The federal government has a binary choice, recognize a marriage performed in a state, or don't recognize it as valid. For an example of a problem, let's say the federal government placed an age restriction, no marriages of persons under 18 would receive federal recognition because the feds don't believe they can consent. So a couple gets married at 16 let's say, age of consent in many states and the states recognize it but not the feds. Does federal recognition kick in at 18? Of course not, how could it if the couple was incapable of giving consent according to the federal government when they were 16? Legally it's entirely possible that the couple might have to get remarried at 18 to have it recognized by the feds so they "know" legally the couple consented.

Anyway though, the feds don't go down that road because of problems like that, it's simply too messy. Historically the federal government has chosen to recognize marriages performed in the 50 states, a major exception being with DOMA of course. Without DOMA would same sex marriage be recognized under federal law? Of course not, because Obama doesn't support it, but they can't just retroactively rename SSM because the federal government has no authority to change a public act performed in a state. The state lists a couple as married, Obama's not going to recognize that.
 

Mumei

Member
Tamanon said:
I dunno, I'd look at it this way, 4 years ago, did you even think that we were in spitting distance of even just civil unions and states actually switching to marriage?

Heh.

I was absolutely thrilled when California made that decision, and I can't express how happy it made me reading the decision. I guess this means I have to wait another 19 years before we see marriage equality nationwide though. =P
 

Tamanon

Banned
Gaborn: Right, but in the law enacting equal rights for civil unions they would have to define civil unions. It's rather easy to define a civil union as including a state-recognized marriage as one of the possibilities.

I just don't understand your argument, you're saying Obama wouldn't have the power to not recognize state marriages when that is already happening in the government.
 

Gaborn

Member
Tamanon said:
Gaborn: Right, but in the law enacting equal rights for civil unions they would have to define civil unions. It's rather easy to define a civil union as including a state-recognized marriage as one of the possibilities.

I just don't understand your argument, you're saying Obama wouldn't have the power to not recognize state marriages when that is already happening in the government.

Well no, what I'm saying is that it's completely unprecedented to recognize a marriage performed in a state under a different name and it brings with it a lot of concern over whether you'd have the same rights or not. I think it's extremely difficult to just simply categorize civil unions as including state sanctioned legal marriages, and in fact I'd say it defeats the POINT of the marriage decision. The point of the decision is that you're married not in a second class relationship.
 

Gaborn

Member
Tamanon said:
Well duh, of course it's unprecedented. That's kinda why he's one of many pushing for it, because it doesn't exist yet!

no, you missed my point. Calling a marriage a marriage at the state level and "civil union" at the federal level is unprecedented. In other words, he's trying to create a new legal status with the sole purpose of singling out one type of marriage from another type. That doesn't bother you?

In fact, theoretically it'd take a LOT less effort not to create civil unions. Just repeal DOMA and recognize all marriages performed in the US states as valid.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Gaborn said:
no, you missed my point. Calling a marriage a marriage at the state level and "civil union" at the federal level is unprecedented. In other words, he's trying to create a new legal status with the sole purpose of singling out one type of marriage from another type. That doesn't bother you?

Nope, although he doesn't even have to do that, he can just have the law say that federal benefits apply to any state-sanctioned marriage or to a civil union. That way you have marriages from the states that want them and civil unions from the states that don't. Same rights, and recognized by the label that the state assigns them.
 

Mumei

Member
Oh, another reason I dislike civil unions:

As of today, five months after New Jersey's Civil Union Law took effect, at least 1 in every 7 civil-unioned couples in New Jersey is being denied equal protection under the law.

In today's meeting of the New Jersey Civil Unions Review Commission, the state registrar reported that 1,359 couples have gotten civil-unioned in New Jersey since the law took affect on February 19, 2007.

During the same five-month period, 191 civil-unioned couples have reported to Garden State Equality that their employers refuse to recognize their civil unions. That is a 14 percent, or 1 in 7, failure rate, at least.

During the first four months of the law, the failure rate had been at least 1 in 8, demonstrating that employers have not increased their acceptance of the law as they've become more familiar with it. Employers are actually becoming more resistant.

One of the other fun side effects of civil unions, aside from muddying the debate, is that civil unions simply aren't respected - not socially, culturally, or, if New Jersey's experience is any indication, legally.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Mumei said:
Oh, another reason I dislike civil unions:



One of the other fun side effects of civil unions, aside from muddying the debate, is that civil unions simply aren't respected - not socially, culturally, or, if New Jersey's experience is any indication, legally.

Yeah that's true, but that's also something that federal rights being extended to civil unions will cure. Because one of those rights is that you can't discriminate against them. And if they do, then you can sue their asses into the ground.:lol
 

Mumei

Member
Tamanon said:
Yeah that's true, but that's also something that federal rights being extended to civil unions will cure. Because one of those rights is that you can't discriminate against them.

Wait, what?

I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with what right you're talking about in this context.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Mumei said:
Wait, what?

I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with what right you're talking about in this context.

I'm almost positive that marital status is one of the things that companies are not allowed to discriminate against. Federal rights, means federal equal protection. Hell, maybe that'll help it pass if lawyer lobbies want the business.:lol
 
Mumei said:
One of the other fun side effects of civil unions, aside from muddying the debate, is that civil unions simply aren't respected - not socially, culturally, or, if New Jersey's experience is any indication, legally.

This is why civil unions are separate but unequal, and Obama can't just wave his hands and make that not so. If your contract with your employer specifically references "marriage", than a civil union is not covered in said agreement. There are just too many areas to cover in order to bring civil unions up to the same level of rights that marriage grants.
 

Gaborn

Member
Tamanon said:
Nope, although he doesn't even have to do that, he can just have the law say that federal benefits apply to any state-sanctioned marriage or to a civil union. That way you have marriages from the states that want them and civil unions from the states that don't. Same rights, and recognized by the label that the state assigns them.

And, if he did that I'd completely respect that actually. Honestly I like the idea of federalism as much as possible, I want to avoid a federal court decision on the issue for as long as possible. However, it doesn't sound like that is what Obama is advocating. I just have this sinking feeling Obama isn't going to turn out well on this issue. Hell, he had DONNIE MCCLURKIN as a headline act on his campaign. That doesn't exactly inspire confidence when he's telling me he's going to recognize civil unions but not gay marriage.
 

Mumei

Member
Tamanon said:
I'm almost positive that marital status is one of the things that companies are not allowed to discriminate against. Federal rights, means federal equal protection. Hell, maybe that'll help it pass if lawyer lobbies want the business.:lol

I believe so, but that would require the law stating that one's civil union status is the same as one's marital status.

Anyway, we already have a system of civil unions for the government to recognize relationships, and we happen to call it marriage to reflect the importance that marriage has in our society. The very point of creating a second institution not called marriage is to pointedly exclude homosexuals from the the institution of marriage.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Mumei said:
I believe so, but that would require the law stating that one's civil union status is the same as one's marital status.

Anyway, we already have a system of civil unions for the government to recognize relationships, and we happen to call it marriage to reflect the importance that marriage has in our society. The very point of creating a second institution not called marriage is to pointedly exclude homosexuals from the the institution of marriage.

Yup, and we're back to the original argument that we've been over many a time already tonight.:lol Although one might argue that to a lot of people, it's not about exluding homosexuals, but preserving what they believe marriage is. It's basically the whole Pro-Choice/Pro-Life bit. Partisans on boths sides view it in the negative ligth of the others' position.
 
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