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[Tamanon]

He won't flipflop on Iraq in public at all, the situation there hasn't changed as much as people want to think it has. Violence for this month has gone right back up to normal levels, nothing's getting done on the political side of things. People still want to bring 'em home, they don't care about it being labeled a "defeat" by morons.

It especially doesn't help that the reports coming out on Al Qaeda being as strong as ever in Pakistan, mainly because all CIA resources have been focused on Iraq.

 

[Door2Dawn]

Obama is suppose to give a speech on patriotism in Independence,MO today.

 

[mckmas8808]

I'd be surprised if young voters were initially attracted to him due to his specific stances on issues. I think it was that he's a youthful, exciting democrat. Who knows, maybe I'm out of touch.

I do agree that if he keeps this up, he will lose the vote of cynical types who see him as truly different. I haven't been happy with his recent pandering, but I'm not ready to throw away the yard sign. But if this continues for quite a while, it may get to the point where he gets my vote and that's it.

Im sorry but what pandering is he doing? Are you talking about the FISA ruling?

 

[Stumpokapow]

Obama flipping on Iraq is a forgone conclusion. The only questions are how and when?

siamesedreamer not liking Obama is a foregone conclusion. The only questions are how often he'll post about it and when.

 

[syllogism]

e: oops, wrong thread

 

[The Librarian]

Im sorry but what pandering is he doing? Are you talking about the FISA ruling?

This. Yeah, what pandering is he doing?

 

[TDG]

Im sorry but what pandering is he doing? Are you talking about the FISA ruling?

Yes, but let me emphasize that what Obama is doing right now is not in any way something I don't expect from him as a politician. I think that anyone who expects him to always do what he thinks is right, not what is smart politically, is setting their expectations way too high.

siamesedreamer not liking Obama is a foregone conclusion. The only questions are how often he'll post about it and when.

I think the foregone conclusion is that siamesedreamer will complain about "ObamaGAF," then make posts that he hopes will cause rage from the "ObamaGAFers," and prove his points about them. The only questions are who exactly he's trying to prove his points to, and how far he'll take his act.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I think the foregone conclusion is that siamesedreamer will complain about "ObamaGAF," then make posts that he hopes will cause rage from the "ObamaGAFers," and prove his points about them. The only questions are who exactly he's trying to prove his points to, and how far he'll take his act.

And toss out the cultist meme again. Don't forget that one.

Watching Obama's speech on patriotism. He just said America isn't perfect. Oh teh noes.

Edit: Mark Twain quote got a standing ovation.

"Patriotism is supporting your country all of the time, and your government when it deserves it."

He's now talking about how dissent is one of the "true expressions of patriotism".

(It's streaming on cnn.com)

 

[mckmas8808]

This. Yeah, what pandering is he doing?

Im scared now that a bunch of younger people (30 and younger) wont vote for Obama because now they wont agree with 100% of everything that he says. Do people understand that they will never agree wiith 100% on anything with ny person?

 

[bob_arctor]

And toss out the cultist meme again. Don't forget that one.

Watching Obama's speech on patriotism. He just said America isn't perfect. Oh teh noes.

Edit: Mark Twain quote got a standing ovation.

"Patriotism is supporting your country all of the time, and your government when it deserves it."

He's now talking about how dissent is one of the "true expressions of patriotism".

(It's streaming on cnn.com)

!!!! It's like he's speaking directly to me! DISSENT, BITCHES!!

 

[Frank the Great]

And toss out the cultist meme again. Don't forget that one.

Watching Obama's speech on patriotism. He just said America isn't perfect. Oh teh noes.

Edit: Mark Twain quote got a standing ovation.

"Patriotism is supporting your country all of the time, and your government when it deserves it."

He's now talking about how dissent is one of the "true expressions of patriotism".

(It's streaming on cnn.com)

I wish I was a women and had access to Obama so that I could have his children.

Wait a minute. I have a girlfriend! Close enough.

Now I just need to find a way to get Obama's penis into her.

 

[The Librarian]

I wish I was a women and had access to Obama so that I could have his children.

Wait a minute. I have a girlfriend! Close enough.

Now I just need to find a way to get Obama's penis into her.

That's just... creepy.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Obama put out a statement about Clark's comment at the same time he addressed it in his speech.

Per Ben Smith:

"As he's said many times before, Senator Obama honors and respects Senator McCain's service, and of course he rejects yesterday's statement by General Clark," Obama spokesman Bill Burton says in a statement.

Here's what Obama said in his speech:

Beyond a loyalty to America’s ideals, beyond a willingness to dissent on behalf of those ideals, I also believe that patriotism must, if it is to mean anything, involve the willingness to sacrifice – to give up something we value on behalf of a larger cause. For those who have fought under the flag of this nation – for the young veterans I meet when I visit Walter Reed; for those like John McCain who have endured physical torment in service to our country – no further proof of such sacrifice is necessary. And let me also add that no one should ever devalue that service, especially for the sake of a political campaign, and that goes for supporters on both sides. We must always express our profound gratitude for the service of our men and women in uniform. Period. Full stop.

Spot-on. Now watch McCain say he was being attacked somehow.

 

[Justin Timberlake]

Wait he rejects what Gen Clark said? Why?! Clark was right!

 

[TDG]

Obama put out a statement about Clark's comment at the same time he addressed it in his speech.

Per Ben Smith:

Here's what Obama said in his speech:

Spot-on. Now watch McCain say he was being attacked somehow.

So, can we safely say that Clark is out of the veepstakes? I hope so.

 

[syllogism]

This is how it works, surrogates attack and you denounce it, even if it isn't coordinated. There is no way he could avoid denouncing the attacks even if that wasn't that the case.

 

[bob_arctor]

Wait he rejects what Gen Clark said? Why?! Clark was right!

You fail at the "Getting Elected" game.

 

[teiresias]

Its getting a bit tiring hearing Obama denounce people speaking the truth in order to appease morons throughout this country.

So is Obama going to concede the entire foreign policy experience debate to McCain. Its readily apparent that McCains campaign and the media consider McCain's service as enough to justify him having meaningful experience and judgment in foreign policy. If Obama isn't willing to challenge that viewpoint - that serving automatically gives you foreign policy credentials - then he has essentially given up on any counter argument since the media is more than happy to accept that proposition as true.

 

[Father_Brain]

You fail at the "Getting Elected" game.

I'm not surprised, but I'm disappointed that he's simply regurgitating the way the media have falsely framed Clark's comments. The man said nothing that "dishonored" or "disrespected" McCain's service, contrary to what Burton's statement implies.

 

[GhaleonEB]

You fail at the "Getting Elected" game.

Yeah. But Obama has been very explicit in saying he would never attack McCain's military service in any way over the campaign, and goes out of his way to praise it at every opportunity. So Clark saying what he did - even if it was correct - was off-message and Obama has to distance himself from it.

McCain's camp is freaking out. The MSM is latching onto it. He had to respond.

Also:

 

[TDG]

Its getting a bit tiring hearing Obama denounce people speaking the truth in order to appease morons throughout this country.

Well, that's how getting elected works.

Besides, even if Clark does have a good point, he didn't word it very well. Also, syllogism makes an excellent point about how surrogates are used.

 

[Tamanon]

Basically they're there to get a message out there, and then the denouncement is used to get a different message out there. Although is Clark an official Obama surrogate? He's only ever listed as a supporter.

 

[The Librarian]

What did Clark say, exactly?

 

[GhaleonEB]

Well, that's how getting elected works.

Besides, even if Clark does have a good point, he didn't word it very well. Also, syllogism makes an excellent point about how surrogates are used.

And the really ironic part? One of McCain's guys is defending the swiftboaters, and bringing them out to defend himself from this "attack".

McCain Surrogate Condemning Attacks On His Military Record Was In Swift Boat Vet Ads Against Kerry

Oh, this is fun. Today the McCain campaign held a conference call unveiling a new "truth squad" Web site designed to defend McCain from attacks on his military record.

This was in response to Wes Clark's claim yesterday that McCain lacks the necessary experience to be President, which wasn't an attack on McCain's military record at all.

Be that as it may, on the call, the McCain camp rolled out a leading surrogate named Bud Day -- who was described merely as a fellow POW of McCain -- who blasted such attacks. "John was slandered and reviled in the 2000 campaign in a way that denigrated his service enormously...it was absolutely important to face this issue right off the bat."

But guess what -- it turns out that this very same Bud Day was featured in the Swift Boat Vets ads attacking John Kerry in 2004!

To make matters even better, recall that McCain himself condemned the Swift Boat Vets. Yet now the McCain campaign is cheerfully enlisting someone who did what McCain claimed to decry -- attacks on Kerry's credentials -- and using him to defend McCain against the same sort of attacks.

That's a good one.

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/06/mccain_surrogate_condemning_at.php

McCain is one sleazy motherfucker.

What did Clark say, exactly?

Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpsI-RBTvFg&eurl=http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/

 

[Tamanon]

That McCain's military experience didn't provide executive experience, just inartfully.

 

[Justin Bailey]

What did Clark say, exactly?

That being shot down and held prisoner does not make you qualified to be commander-in-chief. He was basically saying that McCain didn't have enough executive experience in the military to use it as a qualifier to be president. If you listen to the interview it makes sense, but unfortunately all people are going to talk about is "OMG, he dissed McCain's military service! Burn him!"

 

[WickedAngel]

I don't really see the logic in sucking peoples' cocks over their military service. Hundreds of thousands of people serve the military; that doesn't mean that they're fit to run the country or even mean that they're more prepared to than someone who hasn't served. It's becoming a bit tiresome, really. It isn't slander to say that being in the military doesn't necessarily make you fit to be the President.

 

[worldrunover]

How is "being shot down in a plane is not a credential for being president" an attack on someone's service to the military? I'm really missing something there. Kerry was basically called a pinko commie in '04. Not really the same thing.

 

[Tamanon]

The problem is that Clark said the being shot down part as a repeat of what Bob Scheiffer challenged him with. They don't play that part that immediately preceded it, so it just looks like Clark out of nowhere denigrates the whole thing.

 

[scorcho]

so instead of setting the public record straight, Obama's campaign instead appeases the DC press corps and allows McCain to run on the line that he has inscrutable FP credentials gained in the military.

keep disappointing me, O.

 

[Justin Bailey]

How is "being shot down in a plane is not a credential for being president" an attack on someone's service to the military? I'm really missing something there. Kerry was basically called a pinko commie in '04. Not really the same thing.

It's not really an attack, but its poking around with McCain's military service. He's completely untouchable there and Obama knows that. Clark probably thought he could get away with it since he's a retired general, but it just doesn't work that way.

 

[SouthernDragon]

People's expectations of Obama is too high. He's trying to make government better, but he can't damn well do it in one swoop. Yeah, Clarke hit the nail on the head, and yes, Obama was wrong to distance himself from those remarks. However, that's what the game is.

Edit: Look, perhaps Clarke could get away with it, since he is a military man. But he's not the candidate, Obama is, so Obama's going to take the heat for something Clarke said, not Clarke himself.

There are other ways to knock on McCain's foreign policy "experience" without using his military record against him, even if it is a good point to use against him.

 

[WHOAguitarninja]

Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpsI-RBTvFg&eurl=http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/

That's what this is about? That seemed pretty logical and levelheaded to me.

 

[scorcho]

People's expectations of Obama is too high. He's trying to make government better, but he can't damn well do it in one swoop. Yeah, Clarke hit the nail on the head, and yes, Obama was wrong to distance himself from those remarks. However, that's what the game is.

Obama's change mantra was supposed to get rid of the game. don't act as if retarding a theme of the campaign to play politics isn't somehow disappointing. granted, i never fell for the mantra, but seeing the quick swerve to the middle is a little unsettling.

if the expectations were to high it's because his campaign set up the ladder to begin with.

 

[Justin Timberlake]

You fail at the "Getting Elected" game.

Really? Because, in my eyes, Obama automatically loses the foreign policy debate if he concedes this point. By disagreeing with Clark, he is giving legitimacy to McCain's credentials as a foreign policy expert. What Clark says puts McCain on even ground with Obama; they both don't have experience in the strategy making of a military operation. By disagreeing with Clark, he puts McCain on a different, higher level than him. Why?!

Obama has been disappointing me left and right this month. Maybe its the Clinton supporters that he hired for the general election campaign? I dunno, but this needs to stop. I will vote for him no matter what, but I am losing inspiration to donate/volunteer.

 

[teruterubozu]

Clark hasn't received this much attention since 2004. And really, who gives a shit?

 

[mckmas8808]

I'm not surprised, but I'm disappointed that he's simply regurgitating the way the media have falsely framed Clark's comments. The man said nothing that "dishonored" or "disrespected" McCain's service, contrary to what Burton's statement implies.

It doesn't do any good. 90% od folks in america don't eve understand what Wes was saying. It doesn't help Obama at all really.

Only 10% (or some small %) of people really get it. So Obama doesn't need this story to hurt him.

 

[scorcho]

Really? Because, in my eyes, Obama automatically loses the foreign policy debate if he concedes this point. By disagreeing with Clark, he is giving legitimacy to McCain's credentials as a foreign policy expert. What Clark says puts McCain on even ground with Obama; they both don't have experience in the strategy making of a military operation. By disagreeing with Clark, he puts McCain on a different, higher level than him. Why?!

agreed. hey look! another Democrat afraid to touch the national defense/foreign policy debate! yay!

 

[worldrunover]

That's what this is about? That seemed pretty logical and levelheaded to me.

See, this is why the MSM takes things out of context. Much juicier that way!

 

[Tamanon]

Can't win for losing with some of you guys. Obama has stated this entire time that McCain's military record is sacrosanct and would not attack him on it at all. He maintains this stance and it disappoints you. This is not a tack to the center, this is a continuation of everything he's said previously.

He has constantly made this a judgement versus experience debate, because there's no way he can win an experience argument.

 

[SouthernDragon]

Obama's change mantra was supposed to get rid of the game. don't act as if retarding a theme of the campaign to play politics isn't somehow disappointing. granted, i never fell for the mantra, but seeing the quick swerve to the middle is a little unsettling.

if the expectations were to high it's because his campaign set up the ladder to begin with.

Can't argue with that.

I just personally see that it's hard for him to accomplish everything he promised, so I don't expect everything of him. But you are right.

 

[artredis1980]

Really? Because, in my eyes, Obama automatically loses the foreign policy debate if he concedes this point. By disagreeing with Clark, he is giving legitimacy to McCain's credentials as a foreign policy expert. What Clark says puts McCain on even ground with Obama; they both don't have experience in the strategy making of a military operation. By disagreeing with Clark, he puts McCain on a different, higher level than him. Why?!

Obama has been disappointing me left and right this month. Maybe its the Clinton supporters that he hired for the general election campaign? I dunno, but this needs to stop. I will vote for him no matter what, but I am losing inspiration to donate/volunteer.

I guess you are what I would call a bit of a naive idiot. Obama always said he would remain above the fray and questioning someones patriotism is not staying above the fray. if you are disappointed in that, you should have never been supporting Obama in the first place

 

[Justin Timberlake]

It doesn't do any good. 90% od folks in america don't eve understand what Wes was saying. It doesn't help Obama at all really.

Only 10% (or some small %) of people really get it. So Obama doesn't need this story to hurt him.

Running a campaign assuming that the American people are ignorant is morally wrong. It leads to deception, spin, and all of the problems that our political system faces today. Politicians these days are too wary of offending the stupid, so they choose to appeal to the baser instincts that will appeal to the ignorant. Give us the truth and we will sort it out for ourselves; I don't need to be talked down to because of some presumptions made by a campaign staff.

Spoiler

(now, the American people may be stupid as a whole, but that doesn't excuse the immorality)

 

[Tamanon]

I hope things go well for you in the '08 Fantasyland elections then.

 

[bob_arctor]

Can't win for losing with some of you guys. Obama has stated this entire time that McCain's military record is sacrosanct and would not attack him on it at all. He maintains this stance and it disappoints you. This is not a tack to the center, this is a continuation of everything he's said previously.

He has constantly made this a judgement versus experience debate, because there's no way he can win an experience argument.

Bingo.

 

[GhaleonEB]

See, this is why the MSM takes things out of context. Much juicier that way!

Which is exactly why Obama needs to distance himself from the topic. It's less about what Clark actually said and more about what the MSM is saying he said. If Obama engages the debate it will 1) backfire because the media will distort it (they already are) and 2) get them far, far off message on the issues. And it runs counter to his stance on McCain's service. It's not worth it. So they're moving on.

Can't win for losing with some of you guys. Obama has stated this entire time that McCain's military record is sacrosanct and would not attack him on it at all. He maintains this stance and it disappoints you. This is not a tack to the center, this is a continuation of everything he's said previously.

He has constantly made this a judgement versus experience debate, because there's no way he can win an experience argument.

Bingo.

 

[Justin Timberlake]

I guess you are what I would call a bit of a naive idiot. Obama always said he would remain above the fray and questioning someones patriotism is not staying above the fray. if you are disappointed in that, you should have never been supporting Obama in the first place

...or maybe you have no idea what Wes Clark said. Clark never questioned McCain's patriotism, he questioned his experience. I don't remember Obama ever saying he wouldn't attack McCain on his experience, or lack thereof.

 

[Azure Dream]

I just watched the Wesley Clark video... seriously. This is the big deal? The lead-in beforehand was approximately "Barack Obama has not ridden in a jet and been shot down!" The response, "I don't think riding in a jet and getting shot down is a qualification for the presidency-" "REALLY," blurts in the interviewer.

TRUTH SQUAD, ASSEMBLE.

 

[TDG]

Wait, some of you actually think that Obama not backing up Clark's controversial statement = Obama not challenging McCain on foreign policy? 'Da fuck?

 

[Justin Bailey]

Wait, some of you actually think that Obama not backing up Clark's controversial statement = Obama not challenging McCain on foreign policy? 'Da fuck?

Looks like overreacting isn't just for the talking heads anymore.