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[siamesedreamer]

siamesedreamer not liking Obama is a foregone conclusion. The only questions are how often he'll post about it and when.

I think the foregone conclusion is that siamesedreamer will complain about "ObamaGAF," then make posts that he hopes will cause rage from the "ObamaGAFers," and prove his points about them. The only questions are who exactly he's trying to prove his points to, and how far he'll take his act.

And toss out the cultist meme again. Don't forget that one.

Heh...I take it y'all have nothing about the article then? Just gotta attack the messenger.

 

[soul creator]

Uhhhhhhh Clark didn't really say anything offensive. I just saw what he said overblown as usual.

Interviewer: Barack Obama has never ridden in a fighter plane and gotten shot down!
Clark: I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president.

Media: OMG CLARK ATTACKED MCCAIN!! DESPICABLE!

What's sad is that the interviewer actually made that dumbass point in the first place, and was actually shocked that someone didn't fall for it.

 

[Diablos]

Yeah, the media is being retarded as usual.

 

[Tamanon]

"The American Dream is THIS big":lol :lol

Body language peeps are nutty.

 

[reilo]

The hell does Clark need to apologize to McCain for? Stupid Tucker.

 

[Tamanon]

Oh GODDAMMIT Tucker is still defending the Swift Boat ads.:lol :lol

And Tara Hall is loony!

 

[reilo]

Oh my god, Tucker defending the Swift Boat Veterans.

 

[Diablos]

Oh my god, Tucker defending the Swift Boat Veterans.

I feel bad for Tucker. No one takes him seriously.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Jesus christ... fuck tucker and this women.

 

[reilo]

Fuck you, Tucker.

 

[Tamanon]

I'm telling you, Tucker really has ratcheted his anti-Obama rhetoric since the primary was over. It's hilariously insidious, thank god he doesn't have his own show any more.:lol

 

[TDG]

Heh...I take it y'all have nothing about the article then? Just gotta attack the messenger.

I think some of the other cultists pretty much summed up my thoughts on the article. If I had anything to add, I would have. I just wanted to comment on your laughable posting "strategy."

 

[reilo]

I'm telling you, Tucker really has ratcheted his anti-Obama rhetoric since the primary was over. It's hilariously insidious, thank god he doesn't have his own show any more.:lol

He just directly insulted every pro-Obama student's intellect and dismissed them as being just grabbing onto the latest political fad.

Seriously, fuck you, Tucker. Can't believe I defended him back during the primaries.

 

[siamesedreamer]

I just wanted to comment on your laughable posting "strategy."

I didn't know I was using a strategy.

 

[Tamanon]

Stay the course man, stay the course.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Heh...I take it y'all have nothing about the article then? Just gotta attack the messenger.

You did the same thing here by replying to me seriously and sympathetically when I argued that PoliGAF needed to mature and stop personally attacking John McCain, while now treating me like I didn't bring up a good point. I haven't changed. If I'm a low quality poster now, I was a low quality poster then.

Let me ask you a question--if someone with an Obama avatar posted an article by Michael Moore arguing that John McCain is <insert popular argument against John McCain>, do you figure you'd read it and waste your time on it, or do you figure you'd just roll your eyes? Of course you wouldn't... You'd critically engage it and rebutt it... but...

You seemed content to not reply to a thread about the US potentially engaging Iran, instead complaining that it's a tired idea. You seemed content to reply to an argument about John McCain by just saying "there he goes misrepresenting McCain's economic view again" instead of engaging the argument. Is this not you doing the same thing? Failing to engage an idea and choosing instead to snipe at either the poster or the mere audacity that anyone would bring up such an obviously incorrect idea?

The fact is you play largely the same bullshit you accuse others of and you only complain about persecution when you're called out on it.

But since you asked, in brief: The article's core point, that Obama's Iraq strategy will be refined as he gains access to additional operational data and implements it in more than a one sentence blurb, is both true and tautological. It also isn't what you said--he doesn't accuse Obama of flipping.

The author (by the way, a war cheerleader until he went there and covered it and then fell into lockstep with liberal cut-and-run dogma!) essentially argues that Obama will have to construct a more concrete and multilateral plan than simply dumping brigades at a one per month pace. Duh. Just like how John McCain wouldn't literally maintain the exact troop levels in the exact same distribution, even though his stated strategy is to sustain the surge and keep throwing people at the problem.

The important part of Obama's platform is that from day one withdrawal from Iraq will be a presidential directive and a core policy and that he is the most qualified and sincere person when it comes to implementing that. The article does not even allege that this has changed.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Karma: It's hilarious. Even though he said he wasn't a surrogate(and still works for MSNBC) and Obama has said he's not a surrogate, she kept trying to push "he speaks for Obama!"

When NPR covered this on the way home just a bit ago, they described Clark as a surrogate for Obama. I wanted to punch my radio. :lol

 

[Tamanon]

:lol at that 9-11 call about the old guy shooting the robbers in the back.

"He's got a bag of loot!"

And did this guy just call them hoodrats?

 

[reilo]

:lol at that 9-11 call about the old guy shooting the robbers in the back.

"He's got a bag of loot!"

And did this guy just call them hoodrats?

*cocks shotgun*

"Your hear my shotgun being pumped?"

"The laws been changed since September first."

The fuck? What does 9/11 have to do with two guys committing burglary?

 

[Tamanon]

I think he might've been talking about a law that actually went into effect on September 1st in Texas, not 9/11.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Dear lord... the news today in general just makes me want to move far fucking away from this country.

 

[Diablos]

Dear lord... the news today in general just makes me want to move far fucking away from this country.

Have you seen that vile creature Laura Ingraham on Fox News yet? She's CRAZY. She's like O'Reilly and Hannity rolled into one.

She asks the guest a question, the guest answers the question asked, and then as soon as they start getting to the biggest point in their answer she cuts them off and throws in something that doesn't really have anything to do with what she wanted in the first place! A common Fox tactic, yes, but she excels at it.

 

[TDG]

I didn't know I was using a strategy.

Strategy, pattern, I don't give a shit what you call it. You whine about what cultists ObamaGAFers are, then come in here and make posts like your "thrown under the bus post" that are in no way meant to actually create reasonable discussion, then use the dismissive responses to your posts as ammo for your whining.

 

[siamesedreamer]

You did the same thing here by replying to me seriously and sympathetically when I argued that PoliGAF needed to mature and stop personally attacking John McCain, while now treating me like I didn't bring up a good point.

I have no idea what you're talking about here.

Also, I don't really care what's said about McCain.

The point about Obama is that he won't even recognize the success of the surge because it gives credibility to McCain while calling into question his own judgement about it (how it would fail, etc.). The silence is deafening. But, it doesn't appear to be hurting him at this point.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

I have no idea what you're talking about here.

Also, I don't really care what's said about McCain.

The point about Obama is that he won't even recognize the success of the surge because it gives credibility to McCain while calling into question his own judgement about it (how it would fail, etc.). The silence is deafening. But, it doesn't appear to be hurting him at this point.

It has failed.

The point of the surge was to lower violence to allow political progress to be made. The violence lowered but no progress was made, and for the past month violence has risen.

It was a sound plan that relied on the Iraqi government to see it through. Guess what, they didn't see it through.

 

[Stumpokapow]

The point about Obama is that he won't even recognize the success of the surge because it gives credibility to McCain while calling into question his own judgement about it (how it would fail, etc.). The silence is deafening. But, it doesn't appear to be hurting him at this point.

1) That's not the point of the article you posted. Did you read the article? Did you read my summary of the article's core point?

2) You ignored my post, after complaining people refused to respond to your post. Which is funny, given that my point was that you complain about people not giving you a serious response while you yourself fail to respond to people or ideas you don't deem serious. Do you not see

 

[Frank the Great]

You guys should have seen Rove on Greta's show. It was horrific spin.

He kept slamming Obama for smearing McCain because of Gen. Clark's comments. He kept talking about how he only indirectly denounced the "smears" in his patriotism speech. In a remarkable case of either ignorance or cognitive dissonance, neither he or Greta mentioned the Obama press release explicitly denouncing Clark's remarks.

After discussing this for a bit, Rove brought up the flag lapel pin issue as an example of Obama attacking people for their patriotism.

It was pathetic. I was so disgusted.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Webb seems pretty awesome... I would be happy if he gets picked.

 

[siamesedreamer]

Did you read the article? Did you read my summary of the article's core point?

Trying to claim Obama doesn't have access to all the data is absurd. Laughably absurd. He just won't comment on it because of what I mentioned earlier. As such, his campaign continues on as if it were January 2007.

My linked article basically says he's caught between a rock and a hard place given the improved circumstances on the ground and that his strategy going forward has to walk a very fine line - balancing ignoring the progress that's been made and defeatism.

My reference to the inevitable flip is when he'll have to recognize the success of the surge and that he was wrong in opposing it.

 

[Frank the Great]

Trying to claim Obama doesn't have access to all the data is absurd. Laughably absurd. He just won't comment on it because of what I mentioned earlier. As such, his campaign continues on as if it were January 2007.

My linked article basically says he's caught between a rock and a hard place given the improved circumstances on the ground and that his strategy going forward has to walk a very fine line - balancing ignoring the progress that's been made and defeatism.

My reference to the inevitable flip is when he'll have to recognize the success of the surge and that he was wrong in opposing it.

The surge was not successful by any measure.

Even if it did reduce violence, that was not the goal of the surge. The goal was to pacify the country enough so that the Iraqi government could gain sovereignty. Of course, it is absolutely impossible for a government to gain sovereignty whilst being propped up by a foreign military.

That's all Obama has to say.

 

[reilo]

Holy shit.

The FISA bill as it stands, does not give criminal immunity?

If that's true...

Run with that Obama!

 

[esbern]

Holy shit.

The FISA bill as it stands, does not give criminal immunity?

If that's true...

Run with that Obama!

first time i've watched Olbermann in awhile (his lists are fucking retarded and annoy me when he starts doing his dumb impersonation)


however, this information he got is very very interesting and I want to see where this goes. Good job Olbermann.

 

[siamesedreamer]

The surge was not successful by any measure.

Even if it did reduce violence...

...

 

[SouthernDragon]

But the surge isn't working. Our troops did what they needed to do, create breathing room for the government to make sustainable progress. But the Iraqi government didn't take advantage of that, and now violence is back up.

 

[GhaleonEB]

But the surge isn't working. Our troops did what they needed to do, create breathing room for the government to make sustainable progress. But the Iraqi government didn't take advantage of that, and now violence is back up.

People who say the surge is working are deliberately ignoring the goals of the surge to begin with.

 

[Stinkles]

Obama flipping on Iraq is a forgone conclusion. The only questions are how and when?

From the one New Yorker article you've ever agreed with on gaf:

Iraq, despite myriad crises, has begun to stabilize.

Yes. It is a picture of growing stability. Obama just had the foresight to see the trend and capitalize on the new, stable, awesome Iraq. What a cynical flip-flopper he is.

 

[speculawyer]

But the surge isn't working. Our troops did what they needed to do, create breathing room for the government to make sustainable progress. But the Iraqi government didn't take advantage of that, and now violence is back up.

Fuck 'em. We've given them so many chances. If they can't get their shit together then fuck 'em!

 

[dead souls]

People who say the surge is working are deliberately ignoring the goals of the surge to begin with.

Well yeah, but they're usually the same type of vaunted intellects who've changed their rationale for why invading Iraq was necessary at least 3-4 times, so what else would you expect?

 

[scorcho]

Yes. It is a picture of growing stability. Obama just had the foresight to see the trend and capitalize on the new, stable, awesome Iraq. What a cynical flip-flopper he is.

i don't think Packer meant that at all. looking at a narrow metric like per-month US casualty numbers, instead of rapid crescendos there's now a low-intensity simmer. there also appears to be less sectarian violence, though this could just be the result of the inch-by-inch sectarian cleansing that took place before.

stability doesn't need to equal paradise.

 

[fortified_concept]

...

Nice out of context quoting!

 

[theviolenthero]

People who say the surge is working are deliberately ignoring the goals of the surge to begin with.

QFT

Oh and it should be noted once again that the Iraq Government will take a 1-month vacation this August like they always do.
Disgusting!!!

 

[Mandark]

i don't think Packer meant that at all. looking at a narrow metric like per-month US casualty numbers, instead of rapid crescendos there's now a low-intensity simmer. there also appears to be less sectarian violence, though this could just be the result of the inch-by-inch sectarian cleansing that took place before.

stability doesn't need to equal paradise.

You may be on to something there.

 

[KilledByBill]

i don't think Packer meant that at all. looking at a narrow metric like per-month US casualty numbers, instead of rapid crescendos there's now a low-intensity simmer. there also appears to be less sectarian violence, though this could just be the result of the inch-by-inch sectarian cleansing that took place before.

stability doesn't need to equal paradise.

The current, fortunate, downturn of violence in Iraq can't be read as a sign that any kind of lasting peace is taking hold. Muqtada al-Sadr is a real power broker in Iraq (especially the south) and violence seems to rise and fall based on what he tells his militia to do. The one real attempt by the Iraqi government to exert sovereignty since the surge was when it tried to disarm al-Sadr's forces in Basra back in March and all hell broke lose, drawing U.S forces into the fray and it was major political/military set-back for the Iraq government. They even had to go through diplomatic back-channels in Iran to restore a cease-fire, just what Bush-Cheney wanted to see I'm sure.

And in other news what BS by Bush and McCain trying to take credit for the Webb-Wagner GI Bill that just got signed into law. Before it was too generous/expensive, would result in too many opting out of the military after short tours, and of course McCain was out fundraising when Obama and Clinton were voting for it but now they try to ride the coat-tails. How little press coverage is this going to get compared to Clark's challenge to the blind assumption that McCain has unassailable commander in chief skills?

 

[mckmas8808]

You may be on to something there.

No he REALLY is on to something. Why am I seeing these charts for the 1st time on GAF and not on some main stream media broadcast?

 

[Tamanon]

Because it's the quickest and most efficient way to ease sectarian violence, but it's also one of the most controversial and just plain bad ways.

 

[Macam]

I think he might've been talking about a law that actually went into effect on September 1st in Texas, not 9/11.

Correct. Specifically, the Castle Doctrine. Judging by the phone call recording, I think Horn got confused with Frank Castle but that's par for the course for this state and its gun laws.

Uhhhhhhh Clark didn't really say anything offensive. I just saw what he said overblown as usual.

I've caught Clark's comments when they aired and I didn't bat an eye when he said them. It was more surprising, however marginal, that it became the next big headline in political circles. That Scheiffer expressed any emotion beyond his usual sleepy calm at the time should've been a clue.

 

[The Crimson Kid]

And in other news what BS by Bush and McCain trying to take credit for the Webb-Wagner GI Bill that just got signed into law. Before it was too generous/expensive, would result in too many opting out of the military after short tours, and of course McCain was out fundraising when Obama and Clinton were voting for it but now they try to ride the coat-tails. How little press coverage is this going to get compared to Clark's challenge to the blind assumption that McCain has unassailable commander in chief skills?

Too little, which is why I stand by my assumption that the mainstream media is killing our democracy more than any other factor. A democracy can't function properly if the people are uninformed.

Also, I'm astounded that people have the nerve to insult Clark like that. As a former 4-star general, he is practically unmatched when it comes to military experience. How people can treat his remarks like he is just another inexperienced politician is beyond me.

 

[NewLib]

Too little, which is why I stand by my assumption that the mainstream media is killing our democracy more than any other factor. A democracy can't function properly if the people are uninformed.

Also, I'm astounded that people have the nerve to insult Clark like that. As a former 4-star general, he is practically unmatched when it comes to military experience. How people can treat his remarks like he is just another inexperienced politician is beyond me.

Why does his rank as general matter when speaking on political issues?

 

[reilo]

Why does his rank as general matter when speaking on political issues?

He's not speaking directly on political issues. He is posing a question as to why McCain's POW status is a qualifier to be commander-in-chief. If that was one of the prerequisites, then Wesley Clark, a 4-star general, ought to be the more qualified, no?

 

[Verano]

The surge was not successful by any measure.

Even if it did reduce violence, that was not the goal of the surge.

Your premise contradicts since the surge DID reduce violence in Iraq.
Rhetorically spaking, wasn't that the goal?? To reduce the violence in Iraq, not completely eradicate radicals??