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[scorcho]

question - the surge in oil prices seen now have some parallels to what was seen/feared during the 70s; this includes worries about uncertain Middle East geopolitics and the increasing demand for energy and raw materials between OECD countries.

putting aside the reality of resource depletion - is this fear just cyclical?

 

[Mumei]

question - the surge in oil prices seen now have some parallels to what was seen/feared during the 70s; this includes worries about uncertain Middle East geopolitics and the increasing demand for energy and raw materials between OECD countries.

putting aside the reality of resource depletion - is this fear just cyclical?

Ask again in 60 years and let's see if it happens a few more times.

 

[thefit]

Don't recall seeing this posted earlier, but feel free to disregard if it was.



http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/19/world/middleeast/19iraq.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Now can someone tell me what this means?

It means the oil companies get to plunder Iraq's natural resources as was planned from the get go but hey at least we can bring back our boys. Oh wait I ran has oil too? Never mind that thing about our troops coming home.

 

[Tamanon]

question - the surge in oil prices seen now have some parallels to what was seen/feared during the 70s; this includes worries about uncertain Middle East geopolitics and the increasing demand for energy and raw materials between OECD countries.

putting aside the reality of resource depletion - is this fear just cyclical?

It's mainly because a lot of the same causes have been introduced, this time artificially buoyed by speculation as opposed to supply constraints.

 

[scorcho]

Ask again in 60 years and let's see if it happens a few more times.

meh. just a random thought as i'm sloughing through a paper. i just keep telling myself 'i CANDU it' and giggle like a schoolgirl.

 

[thefit]

question - the surge in oil prices seen now have some parallels to what was seen/feared during the 70s; this includes worries about uncertain Middle East geopolitics and the increasing demand for energy and raw materials between OECD countries.

putting aside the reality of resource depletion - is this fear just cyclical?

BIG difference. in the 70's we had an embargo, yes WE got embargoed, by the oil producing Arab nations and that lead to some actual shortages. This time around there are no shortages just a lot of funny money and a few assholes getting rich of off us.

 

[scorcho]

BIG difference. in the 70's we had an embargo, yes WE got embargoed, by the oil producing Arab nations and that lead to some actual shortages. This time around there are no shortages just a lot of funny money and a few assholes getting rich of off us.

but the rise in imported raw and commodity prices wasn't just a US phenomenon - this effected most developed capitalist economies at the time. the rise of Japanese and European industry drove demand through a roof and famously led to the initial publication of Limits to Growth (which is a reason why i still believe China's economy is unsustainable).

forget the thought, it's not fully formed and i'm too tired to argue to a weakly held point

 

[Tamanon]

but the rise in imported raw and commodity prices wasn't just a US phenomenon - this effected most developed capitalist economies at the time. the rise of Japanese and European industry drove demand through a roof and famously led to the initial publication of Limits to Growth (which is a reason why i still believe China's economy is unsustainable).

forget the thought, it's not fully formed and i'm too tired to argue to a weakly held point

Plus, remember, everything changed because of 9/11!

 

[scorcho]

Rudy! Rudy! Rudy! Rudy!

 

[thefit]

but the rise in imported raw and commodity prices wasn't just a US phenomenon - this effected most developed capitalist economies at the time. the rise of Japanese and European industry drove demand through a roof and famously led to the initial publication of Limits to Growth (which is a reason why i still believe China's economy is unsustainable).

forget the thought, it's not fully formed and i'm too tired to argue to a weakly held point

I also beleive China is a big red bubble they are just as infested with speculation as we are, they are an emerging economy yes so they have yet to deal with what comes along with capitalism let alone this runaway capitalism. Wait till they get their first depression, there already some signs of something bad on the horizon.

 

[Mandark]

question - the surge in oil prices seen now have some parallels to what was seen/feared during the 70s; this includes worries about uncertain Middle East geopolitics and the increasing demand for energy and raw materials between OECD countries.

putting aside the reality of resource depletion - is this fear just cyclical?

Modern transportation is pretty damn reliant on a commodity with no real substitutes, and that commodity is largely found underneath some politically unstable regimes.

I think it's inevitable that every now and then events would freak people out and make them think that the foundation of the world economy was about to get a serious kick. I think Tamanon's right that speculation is driving this more than supply cuts did in the 70's, but I know jack about the old energy crises and only a wee bit more about the current one.


I will say that in cases like Iran, where a rogue state has a bunch of the black stuff, the reason it's so important to keep the oil flowing is the same reason we don't need to worry about that flow stopping: the massive demand.

Just like Iran isn't crazy enough for us to chuck deterrence out the window, it's also not crazy enough to sabotage its own leading business sector. The Revolutionary Guards is in large part a moneymaking scheme these days, despite its name.

 

[Mumei]

The Revolutionary Guards is in large part a moneymaking scheme these days, despite its name.

So you're saying that Iran names divisions of its army the way Republicans (and as Democrats seem to be learning to do) name bills?

 

[SRG01]

Not at all, and it's not nearly as invasive ecologically as hydroelectric, but it's something.

Thermal pollution can be properly managed if it is disposed of in a non-thermally sensitive location.

I remember this one photo of Japan back in the day that had people swimming in the same water that the nuclear plant was dumping into. :lol Not sure if it's true or not! (Of course, it was probably near the coastline too...)

 

[Tamanon]

So....the 4 big American Oil companies are going into Iraq to get oil now, no-bid contracts naturally. I wonder if they waited this long so it would seem more palatable to high-gas price fearing people.

 

[Mandark]

So you're saying that Iran names divisions of its army the way Republicans (and as Democrats seem to be learning to do) name bills?

That's pretty much how it's wound up. Their job is mostly to stifle anything that smells of revolution.

Governments set up in the aftermath of ideologically driven revolutions seem to go through the same pattern: an initial fervor, then a focus on maintaining power and an ossification, then eventual reform as power is transferred to the next generation who weren't involved in the overthrow.

The Baath parties in Iraq and Syria gave up on pan-Arab unity a long time ago. The Communist Party in China is all about corporate investment.

I bet someone's already written about this and named their Five Phases of Revolution or something. Bah to the intellectual life of an autodidact.



edit: They probably waited this long because it was so damn dangerous before. Now there's enough stability that they can think about doing this, and it's probably a good sign that they're negotiating with the national government.

A while ago there was talk of an oil company signing a contract with the Kurds in the north, even though the Kurds didn't have the legal power to do that. This is at least an indication that some people who should know think that it's safe to set up shop.

 

[AniHawk]

Let's avoid this line of thought, please.

My apologies. Sometimes I just go into random Simpsons quotes that are really bizarre out of context.

Spoiler

German Itchy&ScratchyLand Employee: Okay, throw 'er in the 'ole.

Aside from that, my dad and his family are sane Republicans, so there's no blind hatred from me towards the GOP. I just don't like how nasty the party's gotten over the last few years, and even more so during this election cycle.

Though, to bring it back to the Simpsons (which my mind often does), the modern GOP has probably been around since the mid 90s.

 

[Joe]

you guys are going to love this:http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2008/06/19/gal_front_06_19.jpg

and for comparison, the rupert murdoch version: http://www.nypost.com/seven/06192008/img/front061908.jpg

 

[NewLib]

you guys are going to love this:http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2008/06/19/gal_front_06_19.jpg

and for comparison, the rupert murdoch version: http://www.nypost.com/seven/06192008/img/front061908.jpg

I dont understand what you are pointing out here.

 

[Hitokage]

Aside from that, my dad and his family are sane Republicans, so there's no blind hatred from me towards the GOP. I just don't like how nasty the party's gotten over the last few years, and even more so during this election cycle.

Most definitely, although it's been building to this point for a some time now.

 

[Aaron]

So....the 4 big American Oil companies are going into Iraq to get oil now, no-bid contracts naturally. I wonder if they waited this long so it would seem more palatable to high-gas price fearing people.

To keep prices at the very limits of what Americans will stomach, of course.

 

[CowboyAstronaut]

Don't recall seeing this posted earlier, but feel free to disregard if it was.



http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/19/world/middleeast/19iraq.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Now can someone tell me what this means?

:lol :lol

I was wondering when it was going to happen. It doesn't surprise me one bit that it has begun. This is the real reason we went into Iraq folks!

 

[Kitschkraft]

:lol :lol

I was wondering when it was going to happen. It doesn't surprise me one bit that it has begun. This is the real reason we went into Iraq folks!

They are getting this done right before their boys are out of the whitehouse....

"Damn, Baracks about to be up in there? We need to hurry up and get these deals going before he pulls the troops out".

This kind of shit sickens me. I hope a benevolent leader takes control of the country and re-nationalizes the industry.....

 

[StoOgE]

Thank you G W Bush. No bid contracts to the oil industry?

Thank you thank you thank you thank you. You done fucked up son.

 

[HylianTom]

BREAKING: Obama Opts Out of Public Financing

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25259863/

Can't wait to hear the GOP whining on this one..

 

[Ponn]

:lol :lol

I was wondering when it was going to happen. It doesn't surprise me one bit that it has begun. This is the real reason we went into Iraq folks!

And no one will say anything now because their reasoning will have to do with oil prices and for the good of the american people.

Bush is indeed the Smooth Criminal.

 

[Mumei]

BREAKING: Obama Opts Out of Public Financing

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25259863/

Can't wait to hear the GOP whining on this one..

I hope they walk right into that.

The DNC will today announce that they intend to file a lawsuit next week in U.S. District Court to spur an FEC inquiry over whether John McCain illegally withdrew from the federal financing system.

The committee first issued a complaint to the FEC in February, but In April a federal judge ruled that, even though the FEC lacked a quorom, they still could convene before the end of the 120 days they're given to examine complaints.

Now, with those 120 days expiring on June 24th, the DNC is acting again in hopes a judge will compel the FEC to act on their complaint, as is allowed by law.

At issue is whether McCain locked himself into spending limits in the primary by putting up anticipated matching funds as collateral for the loan that helped keep his underfunded campaign alive at the end of 2007.

If it is true that, as the kos post I saw this under said, the law says that once you've received a benefit for opting in, you cannot opt out (presumably within the same election period), and McCain has simply opted out anyway...

Well, it sounds fun either way.

 

[hc2]

Obama’s Campaign Tightens Control of Image and Access:


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/19/us/politics/19campaign.html


Good article on protecting his image from the NY Times. A fine line being walked.

While the strategy has won compliments from political professionals of both parties, who say Mr. Obama’s campaign is exhibiting a high level of discipline, it has also created some early turbulence for a candidate who has run on promises of openness and cultivated a grass-roots following and a cottage industry of homemade campaign videos, memorabilia and street murals.

 

[sangreal]

I hope they walk right into that.



If it is true that, as the kos post I saw this under said, the law says that once you've received a benefit for opting in, you cannot opt out (presumably within the same election period), and McCain has simply opted out anyway...

Well, it sounds fun either way.

The chair of the FEC actually sent McCain a letter saying he couldn't opt-out (even if he hadn't used the financing) because they didn't have a quorum to process his request. Of course, Bush swiftly removed him from consideration for re-election

 

[Tamanon]

BTW, apparently Morning Joe declared today to be Bad Obama day.:lol They had segments on Muslims-in-pictures-gate, the Wash Post article where Obama repeated his position of listening to commanders on the ground and being careful leaving Iraq, but now apparently that means that he wants to stay there forever, Michelle Obama's proud remarks again, Public financing and something else too.

It's kinda hilarious how much they blow up some of the stuff that happens for him, but when McCain does MAJOR flipflops of energy policy, even so much as changing his position from just 3 weeks ago, it's regarded as a good thing, heh.

 

[The Lamonster]

BTW, apparently Morning Joe declared today to be Bad Obama day.:lol They had segments on Muslims-in-pictures-gate, the Wash Post article where Obama repeated his position of listening to commanders on the ground and being careful leaving Iraq, but now apparently that means that he wants to stay there forever, Michelle Obama's proud remarks again, Public financing and something else too.

It's kinda hilarious how much they blow up some of the stuff that happens for him, but when McCain does MAJOR flipflops of energy policy, even so much as changing his position from just 3 weeks ago, it's regarded as a good thing, heh.

Sad to see MSNBC occasionally fall into the trend found in the rest of the MSM:

Obama gets unintentional deep-rooted racism (IMO)
McCain gets a free pass (for being like your sweet, yet stubborn grandpa and also getting tortured)

 

[StoOgE]

Sad to see MSNBC occasionally fall into the trend found in the rest of the MSM:

Obama gets unintentional deep-rooted racism (IMO)
McCain gets a free pass (for being like your sweet, yet stubborn grandpa and also getting tortured)

Its simpler than that I'm afraid.

Obama is on the verge of taking a big lead. In fact, looking at EV breakdown, he may already be there.

This is the same thing they did to him when he had Clinton all but eliminated.

Go after him hard to try and keep this close and keep their ratings up.

 

[The Lamonster]

Its simpler than that I'm afraid.

Obama is on the verge of taking a big lead. In fact, looking at EV breakdown, he may already be there.

This is the same thing they did to him when he had Clinton all but eliminated.

Go after him hard to try and keep this close and keep their ratings up.

wow, you're probably right. I assumed they would only behave like that during the primaries.

shit.

 

[-Kees-]

Sad to see MSNBC occasionally fall into the trend found in the rest of the MSM:

Obama gets unintentional deep-rooted racism (IMO)
McCain gets a free pass (for being like your sweet, yet stubborn grandpa and also getting tortured)

Wes Clark on Morning Joe the other day talking about McCain:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=c5bYzL2y7xQ

The media is McCain's best friend.

"This John McCain we're talking about."

Yes, this is McCain, but they won't have any of it.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Does anyone have a large image of Obama drinking that water bottle?

i think we need a picture of obama drinking mccains milkshake. that was a pretty badass statement.

 

[Mumei]

Wes Clark on Morning Joe the other day talking about McCain:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=c5bYzL2y7xQ

The media is McCain's best friend.

"This John McCain we're talking about."

Yes, this is McCain, but they won't have any of it.

Who is that woman talking to him? God, she's annoying.

 

[ralexand]

BTW, apparently Morning Joe declared today to be Bad Obama day.:lol They had segments on Muslims-in-pictures-gate, the Wash Post article where Obama repeated his position of listening to commanders on the ground and being careful leaving Iraq, but now apparently that means that he wants to stay there forever, Michelle Obama's proud remarks again, Public financing and something else too.

It's kinda hilarious how much they blow up some of the stuff that happens for him, but when McCain does MAJOR flipflops of energy policy, even so much as changing his position from just 3 weeks ago, it's regarded as a good thing, heh.

What's the issue with the proud comments.

 

[Incognito]

Rasmussen has McCain up 8.

 

[DeathbyVolcano]

Rasmussen has McCain up 8.

That's a surprise.

 

[Tamanon]

Rasmussen has McCain up 8.

Rasmussen in particular focuses on whether offshore drilling might give Huggy Bear an advantage, noting that 61% here believe that drilling would lower oil and gas prices while only 34% disagree. Rasmussen then determines, in a bit of more or less above-board push polling, that being told that McCain favors and Obama rejects offshore drilling increases McCain's overall lead in FL by a few points.

Education is key it seems on this issue.

 

[Kitschkraft]

What's the issue with the proud comments.

She said "For the first time in my adult life, I'm proud of my country"...she was referring to the political landscape being so energized. She was talking about the emotion and excitement she was seeing from people in regards to her husband.

The media has decided that she is a "Angry Black Woman" however, so instead of taking it for what it was, it is instead seen as "These white folks have been so bad. For the first time ever, I'm happy to live here in America".....

 

[maximum360]

I can't see how anyone expects objective criticism from "Morning Joke". The topics are mostly about Obama and Joe tries to find a way every time to turn the discussion into an Obama negative. John McCain isn't spoken about much but whenever a negative John McCain topic is brought up, they move on real quick.

When Gen. Wes. Clark came on the show a few days ago (I believe), he mentioned that John McCain's time in the military does not equal commander in chief foreign policy cred one of the other guests on the show flipped and almost verbally assaulted Clark over the topic. I give Clark kudos for his restraint but I was hoping that he would have put that guest back in his place.

Mika (sp?) plays the "dumb blonde" on the show for the entire three hours and every once in a while she develops a spine she concedes to Joe after he puts her in her place. I can even deal with Joe and Buchanan recycling GOP talking points because that's expected but Mika goes with wind. Her father said it best when he told her she does best when she stays quiet.

 

[mckmas8808]

BTW, apparently Morning Joe declared today to be Bad Obama day.:lol They had segments on Muslims-in-pictures-gate, the Wash Post article where Obama repeated his position of listening to commanders on the ground and being careful leaving Iraq, but now apparently that means that he wants to stay there forever, Michelle Obama's proud remarks again, Public financing and something else too.

It's kinda hilarious how much they blow up some of the stuff that happens for him, but when McCain does MAJOR flipflops of energy policy, even so much as changing his position from just 3 weeks ago, it's regarded as a good thing, heh.

Its so obviuos that McCain is getting away with alot more stuff than Obama. I think its because he's the front runner now.

 

[Kitschkraft]

I hate being "that group"...I hate having to complain about the MSM, but it's just like damn, how many times does this guy need to flipflop on some shit before the media takes notice.

After Russerts passing, a lot is being said about journalistic integrity, maybe it's time some of these people stopped talking about what Tim was about and started to act like it.

 

[adamsappel]

Where/how does France dispose of its spent nuclear fuel?

 

[Tamanon]

At the rate McCain's going, I fully expect him to actually support withdrawal from Iraq by the end of the election.

 

[soul creator]

At the rate McCain's going, I fully expect him to actually support withdrawal from Iraq by the end of the election.

McCain will get confused and pick Chomsky as his VP

 

[Kitschkraft]

At the rate McCain's going, I fully expect him to actually support withdrawal from Iraq by the end of the election.

He's already damn close it seems.

Wasn't he saying some shit about 2013?

 

[Tamanon]

He's already damn close it seems.

Wasn't he saying some shit about 2013?

Can't be, because timetables mean surrender! That's what he constantly yelled at Romney.:lol

 

[StoOgE]

Rasmussen has McCain up 8.

Rassmussen is under polling minority groups and women right now, I think Obama will outperform his polls, but we'll see. In all of their polls, they are assuming blacks are a smaller voting block than they were in 2004 and have womens votes down nearly 10%.

 

[Tamanon]

Time to play a game of Which Campaign is Blatantly Lying!

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensm...ts_Obama_account_No_negotiation.html#comments

“This is not true!" Potter says in an e-mail. "I met with [Obama counsel] Bob Bauer on a different subject (a joint panel we had yesterday in Rhode Island sponsored by the National Assoc. of Attys General) about 10 days ago. During that meeting, he asked what Sen. McCain’s position was on public general election funding, and I said we were for it, and hoped Sen. Obama would participate as well. There was absolutely NO discussion of 'negotiations' about participating — the word was never mentioned. What was odd is that Bob Bauer then made the argument to me that neither candidate needed public funding — that Sen. McCain could raise as much for the general election as Sen. Obama 'within $5 or 10 million.' I responded that Sen. McCain believed in the general election public funding system and thought it was good for the country.

“So, no discussion of' 'negotiations' and no rejection of negotiations — only a clear statement by me that Sen. McCain hoped both candidates would participate in the system. If they wanted to 'negotiate,' they NEVER mentioned it to me…”

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensm...ing_and_no_basis_for_more_talks.html#comments

Obama counsel Bob Bauer e-mails that, contrary to McCain counsel Trevor Potter's account, he and Potter had an extended discussion of public financing options, which he left convinced that they left "no basis for further exchange."

Trevor and I met at my office on June 6, and we discussed the June 18 panel and then, for 45 minutes, the public funding issue.

I asked him to address a serious of issues of concern to the Obama campaign — such as the McCain campaign's active raising and spending of private money since February for a general election campaign, including for media, while we were still in the middle of a primary contest. He gave me his perspectives — the best arguments he could offer for an agreement on both sides to accept public financing — and it was clear to me that these offered no basis for any further exchange.

Not too long thereafter, John McCain announced he could not and would not "referee" 527 activity.

I am sure Trevor will clarify that I did not at any time counsel him on what choice the McCain campaign would make about accepting or not accepting the public grant.

:lol