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[JayDubya]

(1) It's not a double standard, because there is an actual historical (and present) basis that calls for different standards to be applied. A white judge should be blasted for saying something equivalent, because a white judge has no basis for saying they would be better decision-makers in race-discrimination cases.

(2) Race will and should make a difference. A white man will not be able to understand a race-discrimination case in the same way a Hispanic or black woman will understand it. And the former's understanding will necessarily be deficient by virtue of his lack of experience with systemic and institutional race discrimination. This is the basis for Sotomayor's words, and she is absolutely correct. She should make no apologies, least of all to the racist right.

You're a racist. I guess you won't make any apologies for it.

 

[gcubed]

FoxNEWS - "Has Obama gone "Czar" crazy?"

 

[scorcho]

why the fuck are shrum and buchanan giving analysis of Obama's speech? can't find anyone with actual expertise on the region or US-ME relations?

 

[empty vessel]

You're a racist. I guess you won't make any apologies for it.

See, we're using two different meanings of the word "racist." You use racist to mean "empiricist," and, I agree, I am an empiricist, and, no, I don't apologize for it.

When I use "racist," I use it to refer to a person who holds beliefs (express or implied) in the inherent inferiority or superiority of a class of people, based primarily on the class's color or ethnicity. In this sense of the word, the base of the Republican party--including Rush Limbaugh and Newt Gingrich--and, indeed, much of the Libertarian right, is virulently racist.

 

[NewLib]

See, we're using two different meanings of the word "racist." You use racist to mean "empiricist," and, I agree, I am an empiricist, and, no, I don't apologize for it.

When I use "racist," I use it to refer to a person who holds beliefs (express or implied) in the inherent inferiority or superiority of a class of people, based primarily on the class's color or ethnicity. In this sense of the word, the base of the Republican party--including Rush Limbaugh and Newt Gingrich--and, indeed, much of the Libertarian right, is virulently racist.

I dont know how someone who thinks the government should dictate our morals can be described as Libertarian.

 

[APF]

If white men can't accurately interpret the law WRT discrimination cases, doesn't that mean they are inferior jurists?

 

[JayDubya]

See, we're using two different meanings of the word "racist." You use racist to mean "empiricist," and, I agree, I am an empiricist, and, no, I don't apologize for it.

No, I mean racist, and / or hypocrite as well.

By your own admission you seem to think that it's acceptable for one to claim that one's Latina-ness is valuable / preferable but unacceptable for someone else to claim that one's WASP or WASC-iness is valuable / preferable.

Neither are preferable. Neither should even be relevant. At all.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

PHOTOS Barack and Hillary in Cairo (June 4)

President Barack Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton tour the Sultan Hassan Mosque in Cairo

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

Damn at Hillary's feet.

 

[Door2Dawn]

Holy shit Hillary has some fucking gorilla feet going on there god damn

 

[Trurl]

PHOTOS Barack and Hillary in Cairo (June 4)

President Barack Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton tour the Sultan Hassan Mosque in Cairo

It seems like if Obama isn't smiling he has this terrible frown. . . . He should work on that.

 

[DrForester]

(1) It's not a double standard, because there is an actual historical (and present) basis that calls for different standards to be applied. A white judge should be blasted for saying something equivalent, because a white judge has no basis for saying they would be better decision-makers in race-discrimination cases.

(2) Race will and should make a difference. A white man will not be able to understand a race-discrimination case in the same way a Hispanic or black woman will understand it. And the former's understanding will necessarily be deficient by virtue of his lack of experience with systemic and institutional race discrimination. This is the basis for Sotomayor's words, and she is absolutely correct. She should make no apologies, least of all to the racist right.

So "Justice is Blind" means squat to you? The whole point of our justice system is for justice to be dealt out based on the law of the land. No qualification other than the persons knowledge of the law should be considered.

By your very logic there's no way for a fair ruling on race discrimination laws. Just as you say a white male would have no real understanding of it, then she would be biased because of the way her life has been affected by it. By your logic there's no neutral ground.

EDIT: BTW I'm not arguing that there hasn't been cases of race bias in court rulings before.

It IS a double standard, I really don't see how that can be disputed. Make the argument all you want that the comment is valid, but if something applies to one group and not another that's the very definition of a double standard. If a white male would be called a racist for saying a similar comment, then she is a racist. If you can think of a certain context in which a white male judge could make a comment like that and have it be OK, please let us know.

 

[APF]

Abstractly, a discrimination case takes two parties: the aggrieved and the accused. In addition, the accused is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Therefore, if one is to assert that being of like race to the aggrieved allows a judge to have Special Knowledge of their situation, and that this is important to that judge's ability to preside over the case, one must similarly assert the necessity of being of like race to the accused. Therefore it is impossible for one judge to preside over discrimination cases.

 

[charlequin]

No qualification other than the persons knowledge of the law should be considered.

Judging has never been about strictly reading the words of law without interpretation of context and mitigation, though, as much as a few "strict constructionists" would like for it to be. The purpose of the judiciary has always involved making rulings that explore the inherently ambiguous areas of the law.

I agree with the principle that justice should be "blind" -- in that those who are important and powerful should not be immune to it just because of their identity -- but when tackling issues that fundamentally revolve around matters of identity, the ability to consider these

Just as you say a white male would have no real understanding of it, then she would be biased because of the way her life has been affected by it. By your logic there's no neutral ground.

Well, this is why I would argue there needs to be a demographically and experientially diverse Supreme Court where all of these different perspectives can come together.

EDIT: BTW I'm not arguing that there hasn't been cases of race bias in court rulings before.

If you can think of a certain context in which a white male judge could make a comment like that and have it be OK, please let us know.

It's probably unlikely that a white man could make this statement about being a white male specifically, simply because that particular experience is both extremely common (the majority of Americans are white) and not a group that has a unique understanding of any particular individual form of inequality. But an individual white person might be able to make such a claim about their specific ethnic background (Alito certainly cited his experience as an Italian-American as a formative part of his judicial philosophy), or cite their experience as a divorced father in ruling on cases regarding parental rights, or their childhood in an impoverished family in reference to cases dealing with poverty. Does that make sense?

 

[Tyrone Slothrop]

everybody go read the Fox Nation headlines right now.

"is it a mustache??"

 

[Chrono]

does anybody know when the hypocrisy relationship with saudi arabia is gonna end?
does the us goverment really have to throw away its values just because they have a shitton of oil?

the saudi royals are dictators ruling with an iron fist with a police squad that tortures all native critics etc etc

then you get pics like this (and bush before him)

best friends <3

if your gonna hate dictators you should hate all of them

So the US should only have relations with countries it likes?

And I love these sanctimonious cries of dictatorship and US 'support' for those regimes. Like the Saudi people are in anguish over living in the most fundamentalist country in the world (maybe top 3 or 4) and would build a civilized and modern liberal democracy once these foreign and unpopular dictators are gone. :lol

 

[Zero Hero]

everybody go read the Fox Nation headlines right now.

"is it a mustache??"

Remember:

Fox News is Obama fan fiction. - John Stewart

 

[Gruco]

One thing I don't understand is that if these white republicans are saying Sotomayor's opinion on certain issues would be influenced by her ethnicity, are republicans implying that white men alone are only allowed to give their opinion/get elected to the SCOTUS? :lol

Yeah, I mean, the implication is pretty much one of the following:

1) White dude's perspectives are uniquely unaffected by their background.

2) The means by which white dude's perspectives are affected by their background is uniquely correct, and being tainted by non-whiteness invalidates perspectives.

so, I guess Newt should take his pick on this one.

I also find the "most qualified" arguments to be really strange, as to my knowledge nobody has really invented a functioning system for judicial brownie points. There are any number of supremely qualified people for an extremely limited number of positions. Any system of coming up with the "best" would ultimately be subjective in its selection of criteria and reveal the inherent stupidity of the exercise. How man appeals juges, law professors, etc. are there? I don't think it's crazy to want a panel of 9 people making decisions about america to be representative of america. And to my knowledge nobody has nominated their local garbage man to be a supreme court justice. So wtf.

 

[empty vessel]

If white men can't accurately interpret the law WRT discrimination cases, doesn't that mean they are inferior jurists?

With respect to discrimination cases, yes. If this is supposed to be a gotcha moment, it isn't.

By your own admission you seem to think that it's acceptable for one to claim that one's Latina-ness is valuable / preferable but unacceptable for someone else to claim that one's WASP or WASC-iness is valuable / preferable.

That is correct. What does that have to do with racism in the real world?

Neither are preferable. Neither should even be relevant. At all.

Of course it should be relevant, unless you are taking the position that race is irrelevant in society today, which is a demonstrably false premise. And in which case the disproportionate number of black and Hispanic people who live in poverty would like a word with you about just what it is you believe makes them unable to succeed financially.

So "Justice is Blind" means squat to you? The whole point of our justice system is for justice to be dealt out based on the law of the land. No qualification other than the persons knowledge of the law should be considered.

By your very logic there's no way for a fair ruling on race discrimination laws. Just as you say a white male would have no real understanding of it, then she would be biased because of the way her life has been affected by it. By your logic there's no neutral ground.

This is a naive view of the law, which has never been "blind." Judges are people. Blindness is ideal, but people are real. I did not say that white judges would be biased about or unqualified to judge race-discrimination cases. I said white judges will necessarily lack experience that is relevant--not necessarily always dispositive--to deciding those kinds of cases. This does not mean that only racial minorities are qualified to judge discrimination cases, but it does mean (1) that we should not pretend like race is irrelevant to deciding many different kinds of cases (including criminal cases in which racial minorities have a different experience than whites vis-a-vis law enforcement); and (2) that we should be honest and acknowledge that a diverse judiciary (not a single-race judiciary one way or the other) is good for society for this reason. Acknowledging this makes Sotomayor a realist, not a racist. The irony of the cries of racist from the party of Thurmond and the ideological descendants of the Dixiecrat party is almost too much bear. No, it is too much.

Abstractly, a discrimination case takes two parties: the aggrieved and the accused. In addition, the accused is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Therefore, if one is to assert that being of like race to the aggrieved allows a judge to have Special Knowledge of their situation, and that this is important to that judge's ability to preside over the case, one must similarly assert the necessity of being of like race to the accused. Therefore it is impossible for one judge to preside over discrimination cases.

Race discrimination cases are typically civil cases. There is no accused and there is no presumption of innocence. More importantly, most of "the law" and what gets decided by judges has nothing to do with the ultimate factual question at hand (e.g., did he or did he not intend to discriminate). There are enumerable legal questions--procedural and substantive--that get decided along the way--questions that, although subsidiary, are often of extreme importance to people trying to obtain relief for real injuries--and for which having certain experiences can prove invaluable as a judge.

 

[prodystopian]

(2) that we should be honest and acknowledge that a diverse judiciary (not a single-race judiciary one way or the other) is good for society for this reason. Acknowledging this makes Sotomayor a realist, not a racist. The irony of the cries of racist from the party of Thurmond and the ideological descendants of the Dixiecrat party is almost too much bear. No, it is too much.

How far are you willing to go to ensure a diverse judiciary? I agree that diversity is a good thing, but do you agree that it is nearly impossible to find two candidates identical in all things except race? If so, how much of a factor should race be in a decision for a judge, or anyone else?

 

[Y2Kev]

How am I supposed to feel about GM using its new government capital base to finance this private equity buyout?

 

[Gruco]

Angry mob rage. I thought that was pretty much the default response by now.

 

[empty vessel]

How far are you willing to go to ensure a diverse judiciary? I agree that diversity is a good thing, but do you agree that it is nearly impossible to find two candidates identical in all things except race? If so, how much of a factor should race be in a decision for a judge, or anyone else?

For a court like the Supreme Court, which is composed of a mere nine people but on which thousands of people of every race--white, black, Hispanic, Asian, whatever--are eminently qualified to serve, there is no reason not to take race (and gender) into account in nominating a judge to bring balance to the Court. But it's just one factor to look at. What should be quashed is the notion that there is one person who is "the best" person for the job of Supreme Court Justice and that person should be nominated regardless of the person's race or gender. There is no "best person" when thousands of people are equally qualified for one spot.

 

[APF]

There are enumerable legal questions--procedural and substantive--that get decided along the way--questions that, although subsidiary, are often of extreme importance to people trying to obtain relief for real injuries--and for which having certain experiences can prove invaluable as a judge.

Explain.

 

[ZeoVGM]

Oh wow, I just watched that Hannity interview with Rush. He's lost his damn mind.

Edit: Oh my god, Hannity is bringing up the "people who Obama hung out with" thing. "You can't hang out with him."

 

[ZeoVGM]

... Please tell me someone else was just watching Fox News.

The guy on Hannity's panel said that Brian Williams from NBC News, came out of the White House after his interview with Obama that aired this week, "looking like a Got Milk commercial".

My mouth is still like, on the floor, at the fact that I just heard a "Obama left his cum on Brian William's lips" joke.

I'm honestly in shock I just heard that, even from Fox News. That's disgusting.

If anyone can get a YouTube video of this, please do.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

MSNBC POLL on Obama's Speech Vote Now!

Do you think Obama's speech will improve the relationship between the United States and the Muslim world?

http://www.newsvine.com/_question/2...etween-the-united-states-and-the-muslim-world

 

[StoOgE]

These are hilarious. :lol :lol :lol



I know . . . it is just a hookah and it is just tobacco. But still . . . especially that first one with the big row of bongs.

shisha. They are arabic.

 

[speculawyer]

Damn at Hillary's feet.

WTF? They are not any bigger than the lady in pink.


I'm more worried about the fact that she is wearing a scarf . . . I have no problem with it (when in Rome . . . .) but I'm sure the right-wing is gonna have a field day with it . . . despite the fact that you can find the same kind of pictures of Laura Bush and that crazy lady Bush adviser from Texas.

 

[mAcOdIn]

WTF? They are not any bigger than the lady in pink.


I'm more worried about the fact that she is wearing a scarf . . . I have no problem with it (when in Rome . . . .) but I'm sure the right-wing is gonna have a field day with it . . . despite the fact that you can find the same kind of pictures of Laura Bush and that crazy lady Bush adviser from Texas.

Hillary is also a secret Muslim.

 

[speculawyer]

shisha. They are arabic.

Ah . . . is hookah Turkish? Or Persian?

 

[speculawyer]

Hillary is also a secret Muslim.

:lol :lol :lol

Secret Muslim Lesbian no less!

 

[mAcOdIn]

:lol :lol :lol

Secret Muslim Lesbian no less!

Yep, destruction of America by the democrats was put into motion long ago, Osama better hurry it up if he wants to destroy the US.

Seriously, did no one read my post about that? I find that argument near treasonous and inciteful, amazed I haven't seen that comment by Rush and repeated by Hannity get more flak. I was looking forward to joining everybody in a circle jerk and it just never took off and now I'm lonely.

 

[PantherLotus]

:lol :lol :lol

Secret Muslim Lesbian no less!

WIF UGLY FEET YO!

 

[thefit]

This got a chuckle out of me.

Here's Obama touring the Pyramids with that TV archeologist, the one that likes revealing empty tombs on live TV, check out what Obama spots :lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O4atH841TE

<-- aw, my tag changed. I like.

 

[PantherLotus]

^welcome to the tag club! how'd you get it?

This got a chuckle out of me.

Here's Obama touring the Pyramids with that TV archeologist, the one that likes revealing empty tombs on live TV, check out what Obama spots :lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O4atH841TE

You know, as I was watching his wonderful and inspirational speech today, I couldn't help but think that he very well could be our messiah. It would be hilarious if the Egyptians predicted his arrival.

 

[mAcOdIn]

^welcome to the tag club! how'd you get it?



You know, as I was watching his wonderful and inspirational speech today, I couldn't help but think that he very well could be our messiah. It would be hilarious if the Egyptians predicted his arrival.

Come on.

If Obama's a "messiah" the standards can't be that high and humanity is doomed if he's a pinnacle of humanity. So many great leaders throughout history and the Egyptians would predict Obama?

I guess you're right that would be funny.

 

[thefit]

^welcome to the tag club! how'd you get it?



You know, as I was watching his wonderful and inspirational speech today, I couldn't help but think that he very well could be our messiah. It would be hilarious if the Egyptians predicted his arrival.

I had one celebrating my sons birth, this one I got for giving advice on kids to someone thats about to be a dad here. Its true, they poo. A lot.

Oh and Shhhhhhh! on the messiah stuff. Don't get them started.


EDIT: ^^^^^^ AW SHIT, See I told you!

 

[StoOgE]

Ah . . . is hookah Turkish? Or Persian?

It's the same thing. My Arab friends just get really pissed when you call it hooka.

Shisha is what it is known as in most of the Arab world. It was invented in Iraq and is most popular in the Arab world.

The British discovered it in India where it was called hooka (or something close, its an anglicized word I'm sure), and started exporting it as a "hooka". So in English everyone calls it Hooka.

It really really pisses off Arab* people.






*By Arab people I mean my smattering of roughly 15 Lebanese, Saudi and Egyptian friends. I have no idea if this is a sticking point to anyone else.

 

[mAcOdIn]

I had one celebrating my sons birth, this one I got for giving advice on kids to someone thats about to be a dad here. Its true, they poo. A lot.

Oh and Shhhhhhh! on the messiah stuff. Don't get them started.

It's just funny, any messiah shit, even Jesus. One man to fix all of humanity or some shit?

I dislike the concept of a messiah, it's just lazy of humanity, short sighted, and self indulgent.

But I do question the sanity of anyone who actually believes that Obama or any US President would be worthy of a messiah tag.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Wow Hillary is such a milf. The hijab looks great on her

 

[Trurl]

I thought that hookah was what the name for the bong and sisha was the tobacco that is smoked with it.

Also, I don't know why they would care what we call it. Different languages use different nomenclatures. Big woop.

 

[StoOgE]

I thought that hookah was what the name for the bong and sisha was the tobacco that is smoked with it.

that is how it is marketed in the US.

 

[PantherLotus]

It was a joke.

 

[Hootie]

 

[mAcOdIn]

It was a joke.

Negative sir, I'll tell you when you're joking or not.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

MSNBC POLL on Obama's Speech Vote Now!

Do you think Obama's speech will improve the relationship between the United States and the Muslim world?

http://www.newsvine.com/_question/2...etween-the-united-states-and-the-muslim-world

Rate President Obama's speech in Cairo on CNN

Scroll down on the right:

http://www.cnn.com/

 

[BorkBork]

I know it's not an exact comparison, but I laugh at the contrast between Bush and Obama's reception.

Bush gets a pair of shoes thrown at him.
Obama gets a "I LOVE YOU" in Cairo.

 

[APF]

Wait, are Obama supporters now flip-flopping on the Hillary is a Lesbian thing? I can't keep track..

 

[Justin Bailey]

Wait, are Obama supporters now flip-flopping on the Hillary is a Lesbian thing? I can't keep track..

Bitter, party of one, your table is ready.