Poll: 57 percent of Millennials oppose racial preferences for college, hiring

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To add, if you mean 'best qualified' = went to a certain university, then we definitely need to work on accessibility to those universities for ethnic minorities, or as we know it AA.

Elite universities should be accessible to anyone with the academic record to meet the admission standards. The color of your skin should not be a factor. Scholarships should be available for students who come from an impoverished background.

Of course, credentialism is a scourge on humanity, but that's another issue entirely.

The first rule of rights law, emphasized in every class I ever took (a good number) is that your rights end where someone else's rights begin. This is why hate speech is illegal. Fuck, it's why murder and theft are illegal.

Hate speech isn't illegal. On a slightly different note, the entire concept of "hate crimes" is ridiculous. If you kill someone, it doesn't matter whether or not it was motivated by race or any other form of discrimination.
 
This is about a page late, but the thought that protecting a business's right to discriminate is more important than protecting an individual's equal rights is ludicrous to the highest degree. And just when you'd think it couldn't get worse, there's the suggestion that the free market will handle it, despite there being a hundred years of evidence to the contrary.

The first rule of rights law, emphasized in every class I ever took (a good number) is that your rights end where someone else's rights begin. This is why hate speech is illegal. Fuck, it's why murder and theft are illegal.

Hate speech is not illegal, and it certainly shouldn't be illegal. Words are simply words. And if discrimination was suddenly allowed to exist, the market would take care of it. If Wal-Mart suddenly decided it wasn't serving minorities, you aren't going to see the rest of the population simply find that acceptable. They'd be boycotted out of business. I'd rather know who the real racists are and not give them my business whether they want it or not.
 
Love these racial threads, or should I say racist threads. It brings out people's true feelings and additions to my ignore list.

This thread has been civil and peoples points on both sides have been reasonable (for the most part).

If you consider people racist over it...or ignore them over it......then its probably YOU with issues.
 
Hate speech is not illegal, and it certainly shouldn't be illegal. Words are simply words. And if discrimination was suddenly allowed to exist, the market would take care of it. If Wal-Mart suddenly decided it wasn't serving minorities, you aren't going to see the rest of the population simply find that acceptable. They'd be boycotted out of business. I'd rather know who the real racists are and not give them my business whether they want it or not.

Precisely. In the modern day, not serving minorities would not only lose the dollars of those minorities but also the dollars of those who find such a practice repulsive. It makes zero business sense. Businesses may not always be run by fair-minded individuals, but green is the only color that matters at the end of the day. That's the beauty of capitalism -- it can take something that is not good like greed and harness it to do good things.

Even if Wal-Mart were to survive if they implemented such a policy, someone else would fill the void.
 
Precisely. In the modern day, not serving minorities would not only lose the dollars of those minorities but also the dollars of those who find such a practice repulsive. It makes zero business sense. Businesses may not always be run by fair-minded individuals, but green is the only color that matters at the end of the day. That's the beauty of capitalism -- it can take something that is not good like greed and harness it to do good things.

Even if Wal-Mart were to survive if they implemented such a policy, someone else would fill the void.

You're delusional if you don't think that there are plenty of businesses in plenty of cities that could be easily profitable and not serve minorities.
 
IHaveCandy said:
Hate speech is not illegal, and it certainly shouldn't be illegal. Words are simply words. And if discrimination was suddenly allowed to exist, the market would take care of it. If Wal-Mart suddenly decided it wasn't serving minorities, you aren't going to see the rest of the population simply find that acceptable. They'd be boycotted out of business. I'd rather know who the real racists are and not give them my business whether they want it or not.

Pre said:
Precisely. In the modern day, not serving minorities would not only lose the dollars of those minorities but also the dollars of those who find such a practice repulsive. It makes zero business sense. Businesses may not always be run by fair-minded individuals, but green is the only color that matters at the end of the day. That's the beauty of capitalism -- it can take something that is not good like greed and harness it to do good things.

Even if Wal-Mart were to survive if they implemented such a policy, someone else would fill the void.

why do people keep saying things like (paraphrased) "businesses only care about dat green! A racist business would go bankrupt!" when there's plenty of data throughout history that shows otherwise?

It's almost like people are basing things on a faith in an ideology, rather than actual real-world evidence...

edit: also, "businesses" are not people, so I don't know why we should treat them like they are ("they deserve the right to be racist!").
 
You're delusional if you don't think that there are plenty of businesses in plenty of cities that could be easily profitable and not serve minorities.

Except that isn't what I said at all.

why do people keep saying things like (paraphrased) "businesses only care about dat green! A racist business would go bankrupt!" when there's plenty of data throughout history that shows otherwise?

It's almost like people are basing things on a faith in an ideology, rather than actual real-world evidence...

I said "In the modern day" because I believe that it's far less likely today that businesses would do so if they were legally able to, but there are always exceptions. Society has changed enough that most people recognize the evils of Jim Crow laws.

That said, a company like Wal-Mart would experience huge declines in profits by refusing to serve minorities for the reasons I outlined above. Good businesses don't close themselves off from large markets. As minorities will always require the same goods and services as everyone else (we're all people, after all), there will always be someone willing to step and provide those things to them. Wal-Mart might remain open but they would be far less profitable and have a huge stigma attached to their company (and deservedly so). Another company would step in and take control of the large chunk of the market Wal-Mart abandoned.
 
Precisely. In the modern day, not serving minorities would not only lose the dollars of those minorities but also the dollars of those who find such a practice repulsive. It makes zero business sense. Businesses may not always be run by fair-minded individuals, but green is the only color that matters at the end of the day. That's the beauty of capitalism -- it can take something that is not good like greed and harness it to do good things.

sarah-palin-chick-fil-a-facebook.jpg


Feel free to refer also to my previous citation regarding exactly what does happen in situations where discrimination is still legal.

I've noticed so far that all the actual facts and studies seem to be on the pro-affirmative action side. The anti-affirmative action side seems to rely more on undefended but strongly held beliefs and theories about the world that would certainly make things better if any of them were true, except that unfortunately they aren't. Funny thing.
 
why do people keep saying things like (paraphrased) "businesses only care about dat green! A racist business would go bankrupt!" when there's plenty of data throughout history that shows otherwise?

It's almost like people are basing things on a faith in an ideology, rather than actual real-world evidence...

Racism within business was possible in the early 1900s because it was systematic throughout the entire nation. When almost everybody else is playing the same game you are, you aren't really hurt by it. These aren't the 50s anymore. Any business throwing up "No colored people" now isn't going to manage staying open for business long.
 
Racism within business was possible in the early 1900s because it was systematic throughout the entire nation. When almost everybody else is playing the same game you are, you aren't really hurt by it. These aren't the 50s anymore. Any business throwing up "No colored people" now isn't going to manage staying open for business long.

What do you think contributed to that progress?
 
What do you think contributed to that progress?

I believe school desegregation was the largest contributing factor to the reduction of racism. I do not think forcing racist business owners to serve minorities did much to change their views on race. If you are old and racist, you are likely a lost cause and forcing you to serve minorities likely isn't going to make you more enlightened.
 
sarah-palin-chick-fil-a-facebook.jpg


Feel free to refer also to my previous citation regarding exactly what does happen in situations where discrimination is still legal.

I've noticed so far that all the actual facts and studies seem to be on the pro-affirmative action side. The anti-affirmative action side seems to rely more on undefended but strongly held beliefs and theories about the world that would certainly make things better if any of them were true, except that unfortunately they aren't. Funny thing.

I must have missed when Chick-Fil-A announced that they wouldn't serve or employ gay people.
 
I believe school desegregation was the largest contributing factor to the reduction of racism. I do not think forcing racist business owners to serve minorities did much to change their views on race. If you are old and racist, you are likely a lost cause and forcing you to serve minorities likely isn't going to make you more enlightened.

Why does the right of a business to deny people access to that business override the right of a person to be able to buy things they need (things which often were necessary and not easily accessible anywhere else, and would lead to other problems in that specific community) without being unfairly discriminated against?

Why is it ok in your view for racist schools to be desegregated via the law, but it's wrong for racist businesses to be desegregated via the law? As a reminder, I'm speaking to about businesses, not individual business owners.

After all, if old racist guy wants to be racist on his own time, he's more than welcome to, and nothing prevents that. When he's operating a business for people in a community, people who may very well depend on what that business provides (a business which requires permits, respecting zoning laws, safety codes, and other government regulations) that's a different story.
 
Racism within business was possible in the early 1900s because it was systematic throughout the entire nation. When almost everybody else is playing the same game you are, you aren't really hurt by it. These aren't the 50s anymore. Any business throwing up "No colored people" now isn't going to manage staying open for business long.

Is this dude serious? Just because it isn't that obvious doesn't mean that it doesn't happen anymore.
 
Reading this thread is hilarious. Some of you guys don't know what the fuck you're talking about and should do some research on slavery and all the bullshit that was being pulled on black people up until the 1960's and how some bullshit still goes on, its just subtle bullshit now.
 
I must have missed when Chick-Fil-A announced that they wouldn't serve or employ gay people.

Probably because it would be illegal for them to do so.

Are you suggesting that the huge swarms of customers which thronged their establishments when they announced they opposed gay marriage would suddenly vanish if they were able to say they also just opposed gay people?
 
Probably because it would be illegal for them to do so.

Are you suggesting that the huge swarms of customers which thronged their establishments when they announced they opposed gay marriage would suddenly vanish if they were able to say they also just opposed gay people?

Nor would they would they refuse services to gay people if they could. Chick-Fil-A doesn't support gay marriage. That in no way indicates a desire to refuse to sell them their food. And the backlash was big enough to force Chick-Fil-A to back off their stance and pledge to stop donating money through their non-profit wing to groups that oppose homosexual marriage.

And there were many people who supported the company through that whole situation because they support free speech, myself included. Fuck the thought police.
 
no such thing a meritocracy and never will be so long as minority job applicants face racial bias of employers. I like how the most vocal opponents of AA always manage to shove that problem under the rug and pretend it doesnt exist. many employers see minority applicants, no matter how qualified, as less desirable than white applicants.
 
There shouldn't be racial programs for places of work.

However there should be racial programs for educational institutions.

I agree, but how else are you supposed to address this kind of problem?
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/31/racial-bias-seen-in-hiring-of-waiters/

Expensive restaurants in New York discriminate based on race when hiring waiters, a new study has concluded. The study was based on experiments in which pairs of applicants with similar résumés were sent to ask about jobs. The pairs were matched for gender and appearance, said Marc Bendick Jr., the economist who conducted the study. The only difference was race, he said.

White job applicants were more likely to receive followup interviews at the restaurants, be offered jobs, and given information about jobs, and their work histories were less likely to be investigated in detail, he said Tuesday. He spoke at a news conference releasing the report in a Manhattan restaurant.

For the experiment, Mr. Bendick hired 37 people to act as white, black, Asian-American and Latino job applicants. Black candidates included African Americans, African immigrants and those with Caribbean backgrounds.

The pairs were matched for age, appearance and gender, trained to have similar mannerisms and answer questions in similar ways. Their arrival at restaurants offering jobs was arranged so that the average time between the two candidates was 37 minutes. Applicants were sent to 181 restaurants, resulting in 138 complete tests between January 2006 and June 2007.

“The important thing is that we repeat the experiment dozens of times so that we can be pretty sure when a pattern emerges that it really is differences in employer behaviors and it not a random effect,” he said.

According to the test results:

Nonwhite job applicants were 54.5 percent as likely as white applicants to get a job offer, and were less likely than white testers to receive a job interview in the first place.

The work experience of white job applicants was less likely to be subject to scrutiny.
Accents made a difference — with white candidates. White applicants with slight European accents were 23.1 percent more likely to be hired than white testers with no accent.
However, accents in nonwhite applicants made no difference.

meritocracy is a fucking myth.
 
That said, I think once all of the damage of the centuries of racially-based socioeconomic inhibitors - which, until roughly 1965 were de jure for many groups of people - is completely and quantifiably fixed, then all "affirmative action" should be based completely on one's financial standing.

and, of course, all of that damage still won't be fixed until after we rid ourselves of our present mass incarceration system (among multiple other things, likely already articulated)

e: damn it mumei beat me to posting this. and with precisely what i was going to start citing.

(also may have just read The New Jim Crow a couple dozen times in the last two months)
 
and, of course, all of that damage still won't be fixed until after we rid ourselves of our present mass incarceration system (among multiple other things, likely already articulated)

e: damn it mumei beat me to posting this. and with precisely what i was going to start citing.

(also may have just read The New Jim Crow a couple dozen times in the last two months)

:D

Feel free to bump this topic if you want to discuss anything! It is sort of tangential to this topic, though there are many passages that are pertinent to a discussion about affirmative action.
 
In the US, racism is still so pervasive on the personal and institutional levels that affirmative action is a necessary but hardly sufficient measure to address racial inequality. A meritocracy is desirable but, regrettably, incompatible with this country's ethnically stratified socioeconomic landscape.

The fact is, we white people still enjoy innumerable privileges at the expense of everyone else. Maybe one day the US will have evolved into a truly metropolitan society. Let's have a conference in a century to see how far we've come.
 
In one corner fact, proven human behavior, and history. In the other: "but it doesn't work that way!"

I don't understand why its so hard for some people, in this thread and in the real world, to understand that taking into account economic status in college admissions, membership policies, employment, etc does not directly address nor eliminate concerns of racial discrimination.
 
I recall reading somewhere earlier in the thread about minority education, especially in regards to funding, so I thought this speech by the great African-American economist Thomas Sowell might interest some people.
 
I don't like affirmative action. Meritocracy is a far preferable system of determining optimal candidates.

Except for the fact that meritocracy favours some social groups more than others because of the deprivation of opportunities for certain social groups in the earlier years of their lives. Continuing the cycle.

Meritocracy needs to be regulated just as the free market itself should be. And let's not forget the fact that despite equal attainments when it comes to higher education, it still doesn't make black and ethnic minority individuals, for instance, immune to discrimination and higher unemployment rates.
 
I don't think I would accept a job if I knew my race was the decifding factor or "tiebreaker". To me, it is no better than a white person getting the job because he is white. If I were white and knew I was picked over a candidate because he or she was not white, I would not want the job.
 
The fact that people boycotted Chick-Fil-A kind of proves our point.

Feel free to refer also to my previous citation regarding exactly what does happen in situations where discrimination is still legal.

I've noticed so far that all the actual facts and studies seem to be on the pro-affirmative action side. The anti-affirmative action side seems to rely more on undefended but strongly held beliefs and theories about the world that would certainly make things better if any of them were true, except that unfortunately they aren't. Funny thing.

Every study posted so far has serious flaws.
 
Thing is, racism is pervasive, and crazy by definition, and, according to some antropologic studies, is quite wired into our reptilian brains ("people like me = good, people not like me = bad"). I think that the problem is exactly that: Affirmative Action programs are designed to "end with racism", while I think that a more intelligent approach would be to "end with the consequences of racism". I think that such an approach have doomed AA to fail, and I fear that the numbers prove it. The socioeconomical chasm between races in the US is still almost intact and in some periods, it actually deepened after the AA took place (1965). They are clearly a failure, and their reform should be talked in the open.

I do believe that the way to mend it would be, like people have mentioned here before, to link AA with socioeconomical status rather than race per se, even if by doing it so it will clearly favour minorities, which are the most impoverished social groups in the US, and it will help women too, which are a "non racial, non minority" group which also suffers quite a lot of wealth disparity and exclusion.

However, I think that such an approach will be politically impossible to execute. The left wing will claim racism and it would loose a comforting sensation of buying peace of conscience (quite literally), while athe right wing will surely not be too thrilled with the spectre of "class warfare" and "handouts to welfare queens" looming over such a reform.
 
I don't think I would accept a job if I knew my race was the decifding factor or "tiebreaker". To me, it is no better than a white person getting the job because he is white. If I were white and knew I was picked over a candidate because he or she was not white, I would not want the job.


Would it help if I told you the majority of job positions are chosen because of nepotism and/or social networks.

And as a white, middle class male, I would not give a shit if someone told me I was chosen over another candidate because I was not the CEOs friend's son, or I was not a member of the Oxford Alumni.

The world is shit, and people are selfish and territorial. You need to cut at the veins of the elite order of society, that had been decided before you were born, to make any difference in the future.
 
I hope every person who is against AA for meritocratic reasons is for high death taxes, regulation of job and university application screening (not for race but for ensuring that people aren't getting chosen simply because they have a friend at the company or their parents donated money to the school), and have never used references and recommendations from inside the company for any job they've held. Who am I kidding though?

The fact that people boycotted Chick-Fil-A kind of proves our point.



Every study posted so far has serious flaws.

Every post you've made claiming that every study posted so far has serious flaws.
 
In one corner fact, proven human behavior, and history. In the other: "but it doesn't work that way!"

I don't understand why its so hard for some people, in this thread and in the real world, to understand that taking into account economic status in college admissions, membership policies, employment, etc does not directly address nor eliminate concerns of racial discrimination.

Aka, libertarians.
 
In one corner fact, proven human behavior, and history. In the other: "but it doesn't work that way!"

I don't understand why its so hard for some people, in this thread and in the real world, to understand that taking into account economic status in college admissions, membership policies, employment, etc does not directly address nor eliminate concerns of racial discrimination.

You have a very loose definition for what constitutes fact. Evidence does not equate to proof. The standards are far higher than that. Sounds like a pretty epic case of confirmation bias by many people in this thread loosely grasping at studies with a sample size of 2 per subset and having complete disregard for the thousands of confounding variables that would skew their data.
 
You have a very loose definition for what constitutes fact. Evidence does not equate to proof. The standards are far higher than that. Sounds like a pretty epic case of confirmation bias by many people in this thread loosely grasping at studies with a sample size of 2 per subset and having complete disregard for the thousands of confounding variables that would skew their data.

I could list a million facts about racism in the US, what are you even talking about?

Also, if you're going to call out every study posted in the thread, then you're going to have to actually go into detail about why the study is unusable or has problems. Otherwise I'm just going to say every study posted in the thread is perfect, without exception. Which one of us is right?
 
I could list a million facts about racism in the US, what are you even talking about?

Also, if you're going to call out every study posted in the thread, then you're going to have to actually go into detail about why the study is unusable or has problems. Otherwise I'm just going to say every study posted in the thread is perfect, without exception. Which one of us is right?

Sure thing. Let's start with the findings of the Princeton paper a few pages back that "showed" that white males with a felony conviction are more likely to get a call back then black males with no felony convictions.

TheShortVersion.png


It used a sample size of four. Two white males and two black males. The sample size is far too small to gain any meaningful conclusion even if the difference is statistically significant. In fact if you read the study here the authors themselves strongly criticise the audit method taken as well as significant parts of the study. (For example see reference 9, page 946 and 967 for critique over the sample size).

Secondly this paper was used to fallaciously argue that this inequitable result in an AA system would have been far more inequitable in the absense of AA. In fact AA was referenced only once in the paper to explain policies in various states. This was not a study on the efficacy of AA policies.
 
This is basically the trumpet-call of everybody in this thread who doesn't feel as though lack of understanding of racism should prevent them from having opinions about it.

All you need to see is one tree and that will tell you about the whole forest.

Hmmm... sounds familiar...

I don't think I would accept a job if I knew my race was the decifding factor or "tiebreaker". To me, it is no better than a white person getting the job because he is white. If I were white and knew I was picked over a candidate because he or she was not white, I would not want the job.
Do you think anyone would actually tell you why you were picked over someone else if it was based on race?
 
You have a very loose definition for what constitutes fact. Evidence does not equate to proof. The standards are far higher than that. Sounds like a pretty epic case of confirmation bias by many people in this thread loosely grasping at studies with a sample size of 2 per subset and having complete disregard for the thousands of confounding variables that would skew their data.
name the "thousands" of confounding variables, please.
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/31/racial-bias-seen-in-hiring-of-waiters/
 
Sure thing. Let's start with the findings of the Princeton paper a few pages back that "showed" that white males with a felony conviction are more likely to get a call back then black males with no felony convictions.

TheShortVersion.png


It used a sample size of four. Two white males and two black males. The sample size is far too small to gain any meaningful conclusion even if the difference is statistically significant. In fact if you read the study here the authors themselves strongly criticise the audit method taken as well as significant parts of the study. (For example see reference 9, page 946 and 967 for critique over the sample size).

Secondly this paper was used to fallaciously argue that this inequitable result in an AA system would have been far more inequitable in the absense of AA. In fact AA was referenced only once in the paper to explain policies in various states. This was not a study on the efficacy of AA policies.

A sample size of 4?

Do you mean 4 test conditions? Because you can't get those percentages with '2 of each'.

The population are the employers been tested for bias.

Assuming the experiment is constructed logically (i.e. all test conditions the same except for those listed variables), then it's perfectly acceptable to have a 'sample size of 4', because those are test conditions.

If the study used different variables for each test condition, then you'd be right in that the study was invalid.
 
A sample size of 4?

Do you mean 4 test conditions? Because you can't get those percentages with '2 of each'.

The population are the employers been tested for bias.

Assuming the experiment is constructed logically (i.e. all test conditions the same except for those listed variables), then it's perfectly acceptable to have a 'sample size of 4', because those are test conditions.

If the study used different variables for each test condition, then you'd be right in that the study was invalid.

I dont know what the hell he's talking about, because his post is deliberately misleading.

Princeton study said:
The testers were 23-year-old college students from Milwaukee who were matched on the basis of physical appearance and general style of self-presentation. Objective characteristics that were not already identical between pairs—such as educational attainment and work experience—were made similar for the purpose of the applications.
Within each team, one auditor was randomly assigned a “criminal record” for the first week; the pair then rotated which member presented himself as the ex-offender for each successive week of employment searches, such that each tester served in the criminal record condition for an equal number of cases. By varying which member of the pair presented himself as having a criminal record, unobserved differences within the pairs of applicants were effectively controlled. No significant differences were found for the outcomes of individual testers or by month of testing. Job openings for entry-level positions (defined as jobs requiring no previous experience and no education greater than high school) were identified from the Sunday classified advertisement section of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.

In addition, a supplemental sample was drawn from Jobnet, a state-sponsored web site for employment listings, which was developed in connection with the W-2 Welfare-to-Work initiatives.
The audit pairs were randomly assigned 15 job openings each week. The white pair and the black pair were assigned separate sets of jobs, with the same-race testers applying to the same jobs. One member of the pair applied first, with the second applying one day later (randomly varying whether the ex-offender was first or second). A total of 350 employers were audited during the course of this study: 150 by the white pair and
200 by the black pair. Additional tests were performed by the black pair because black testers received fewer callbacks on average, and there were
thus fewer data points with which to draw comparisons.
 
The fact that people boycotted Chick-Fil-A kind of proves our point.

The fact that a huge group of people explicitly shopped at Chik-Fil-A because of their discriminatory statements proves mine.

Every study posted so far has serious flaws.

Even if this were true, which I do not admit, the fact remains that you have no studies. The argument against continues to be "Well, all your evidence has flaws, so let's just make things up!" Sorry, that dog doesn't hunt. Flawed studies are more probative than wishful thinking.


Sure thing. Let's start with the findings of the Princeton paper a few pages back that "showed" that white males with a felony conviction are more likely to get a call back then black males with no felony convictions.

TheShortVersion.png


It used a sample size of four. Two white males and two black males. The sample size is far too small to gain any meaningful conclusion even if the difference is statistically significant. In fact if you read the study here the authors themselves strongly criticise the audit method taken as well as significant parts of the study. (For example see reference 9, page 946 and 967 for critique over the sample size.)

Everything in this paragraph is wrong. The sample size isn't 4, it's 350, that being the number of separate employers audited. It is not too small to determine statistical significance, but if it were, your statement that "it's too small a sample for a meaningful conclusion even if it's statistically significant" would be utterly meaningless -- statistical significance is literally a test of whether your sample size is too small to draw meaningful conclusions. The references you're referring to both make it clear that your reading of "sample size" is flatly incorrect. The methodological concerns appendix does, unsurprisingly, contain all the possible criticisms that the authors envisioned of their methodology, but it is an error to take that as "strong criticism" by the authors -- it's a normal part of good scientific practice. If they really thought the paper's foundation was shaky, they would not publish it with their names and then disavow it in the appendix -- such a theory of human behavior beggars the imagination. Moreover, the critiques they offer are specific to the challenge of generalizing these findings to other job searches, not in any sense suggesting the findings are untrustworthy.
 
the authors themselves strongly criticise the audit method taken as well as significant parts of the study. (For example see reference 9, page 946 and 967 for critique over the sample size).
yeah, and about the authors "strongly" criticizing their own methodology.....

The case of Milwaukee.—One key limitation of the audit study design is its concentration on a single metropolitan area. The degree to which the findings of each study can be generalized to the broader population, therefore, remains in question. In the present study, Milwaukee was chosen for having a profile common to many major American cities, with respect to population size, racial composition, and unemployment rate.
There are, however, two unique features of Milwaukee that limit its representativeness of other parts of the country. First, Milwaukee is the second most segregated city in the country, implying great social distance between blacks and whites, with possible implications for the results of the audit study. If race relations are more strained in Milwaukee than in other parts of the country, then the effects of race presented in this study may be larger than what would be found in other urban areas. Second,
Wisconsin had the third largest growth in incarceration rates in the country (Gainsborough and Mauer 2000) and currently has the highest rate of incarceration for blacks in the country (Bureau of Justice Statistics
2002b).
If the statewide incarceration rates are reflective of an especially punitive approach to crime, this could also affect the degree to which a criminal record is condemned by employers, particularly among black applicants. Of course, the only way to directly address these issues is through replication in additional areas. With respect to the main effect of race, previous audit studies have been conducted in Washington, D.C., Chicago, and Denver, confirming the basic magnitude of the effects reported here (Bendick et al. 1994; Turner et al. 1991; Culp and Dunson 1986). Likewise, a recent correspondence of the effects of race on a more restrictive sample
of occupations in Boston and Chicago produced strikingly similar estimates (Bertrand and Mullainathan 2002). These results, therefore, provide some indication that Milwaukee is not a major outlier in its level of racial discrimination in hiring.


In the case of the criminal record effect, only future studies can confirm or contradict the results presented here. As the first study of its kind, it is impossible to assess the degree to which these findings will generalize to other cities. Looking to existing survey research, however, we can gain some leverage on this issue. According to a recent survey conducted by Holzer and Stoll (2001), employers in Milwaukee reported substantially
greater openness to considering applicants with criminal records relative to their counterparts in Chicago, Los Angeles, and Cleveland. If these self-reports accurately reflect employers’ relative hiring tendencies, then we would expect the results of this audit study to provide conservative estimates of the barriers to employment faced by ex-offenders in other metropolitan areas.


Though it would preferable to include job vacancies derived from representative sources, it is difficult if not impossible to map the network of informal contacts that lead to most job opportunities. Instead, researchers have relied upon sources that allow for systematic and consistent sampling schemes, despite the reduction in representativeness. Following previous research, the present study relies upon a random sample of job openings
from advertised sources (the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel and Jobnet).
Fortunately, there is compelling research to suggest that the restricted sample provides a more conservative estimate of racial discrimination.
Firms who wish to discriminate, it is argued, are more likely to advertise job openings through more restrictive channels than the metropolitan newspaper, such as through referrals, employment agencies, or more selective publications (Fix and Struyk 1993, p. 32). Indeed, this argument is indirectly supported by research showing that minorities are more successful in job searches generated by general newspaper ads than through
other means (Holzer 1987). Further, pilot audits conducted by the Fair Employment Council in Washington, D.C., also indicate lower rates of discrimination against minorities in jobs advertised in metropolitan newspapers than those advertised in suburban newspapers or through employment agencies
(Bendick et al. 1991, 1994).
 
The fact that a huge group of people explicitly shopped at Chik-Fil-A because of their discriminatory statements proves mine.

According to wiki the public backlash led to a change in policy. So who won?


Even if this were true, which I do not admit, the fact remains that you have no studies. The argument against continues to be "Well, all your evidence has flaws, so let's just make things up!" Sorry, that dog doesn't hunt. Flawed studies are more probative than wishful thinking.

Disagree. If you want to implement policies that have such wide reaching effects your evidence base must be rock solid. This of course applies to both sides of the argument. Whether it reaches this bar is a different argument.


Everything in this paragraph is wrong. The sample size isn't 4, it's 350, that being the number of separate employers audited. It is not too small to determine statistical significance, but if it were, your statement that "it's too small a sample for a meaningful conclusion even if it's statistically significant" would be utterly meaningless -- statistical significance is literally a test of whether your sample size is too small to draw meaningful conclusions. The references you're referring to both make it clear that your reading of "sample size" is flatly incorrect. The methodological concerns appendix does, unsurprisingly, contain all the possible criticisms that the authors envisioned of their methodology, but it is an error to take that as "strong criticism" by the authors -- it's a normal part of good scientific practice. If they really thought the paper's foundation was shaky, they would not publish it with their names and then disavow it in the appendix -- such a theory of human behavior beggars the imagination. Moreover, the critiques they offer are specific to the challenge of generalizing these findings to other job searches, not in any sense suggesting the findings are untrustworthy.

Fair call. Got it wrong. That doesn't change the fact that it was used incorrectly to assert the need for AA.
 
Because millenials are ignorant as shit and think that blacks have gone from being slaves to having equal opportunity with whites just inside of 150 years. The fucking guys were drinking out of different fountains as recent as 50 years ago but now that's illegal so it must be just as easy for a black to succeed as a white, right?
 
Because millenials are ignorant as shit and think that blacks have gone from being slaves to having equal opportunity with whites just inside of 150 years. The fucking guys were drinking out of different fountains as recent as 50 years ago but now that's illegal so it must be just as easy for a black to succeed as a white, right?

You scald them, and perhaps rightly so, but they don't really have a point of reference apart from what they're told happened.
 
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