Polygon: How Dark Souls II will make life even harder
- Thread starter Orayn
- Start date
I'm not convinced it was lag. I've tested on numerous occasions where I would back myself into a corner, shield raised outwards, the enemy rolls directly towards me and I'm backstabbed and killed. At no time during this exchange is my back ever exposed. I could understand the lag thing if I were fighting in the open and where I was seeing him wasn't actually where he was and he got behind me, but in this case, he never has the ability to get behind me.
Yeah, both of these should make soul level invasion limits much more effective.
Really, the only annoying thing to me is the co-op time limit. Simple because, for a dedicated group of players, it seems like nothing more than a time-wasting exercise.
Well, what would you attribute it to if not lag?
Bonfires are still in, but FROM has been kind of unclear on where healing items, both flasks and drop stones, come from.
I don't know, it's broken. They shouldn't be able to do that. That never happen in Demon's Souls, so something changed between then and now. I have no idea what does it. I do know there's a sort of invisible meta-game to the backstabs that goes on behind the animations. I've watched Youtube videos of people detailing it, but I've not seen anything about how to do that.
I think that's the point of the Blue Covenant. Every newbie is going to choose it to have help with invasions until they're ready to go solo. A LOT of players are going to use it, and it'll make things more dangerous for the invaders.
They just need to balance better with levels AND the invader/invadee equipment. It sounds like they might be doing that. They should also disable changing equipment as a phantom.
Red Liquorice
Member
So play offline then, what's the problem. In Dark Souls atm under your restrictions, all you're getting by playing online are messages and bloodstains.
Exactly. It sounds great. It sounds to me like more often than not as an invader you are basically going to have to deal with your own "invader" at the same time. Wahooo! Bring it From Soft!
Sabbath fan?? That explains why you're always making good posts! It doesn't change the fact that I'll Dickwraith 2.0 all over your shiz and the one you protect though, because Lady Evil
I think they are opening the door wide open for Deep Down (which seems more Monster Hunter-like) with their approach to multiplayer.
Who/what are you talking about? why did you quote me and then write a post that is an anecdote about some guy?
Spirit Icana
Member
I:m excited for this game, but I wanna know who:s composing the music for this game already. I want Motoi Sakuraba again.
Now we have the collectors edition with a soundtrack bonus coming and I can:t get excited for that yet.
Now we have the collectors edition with a soundtrack bonus coming and I can:t get excited for that yet.
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
I'll give you the Taurus demon, but it isn't anything you won't have faced before if you want the Chaos Ember. Also you have to fight the a Centipede Demon to reach the bonfire in that area, and a series of them if you want to get to another ember at the end of the long hallway.
Skeleton dog beasts are some of my most hated enemies, but I always kill them for that same reason. Giant skeletons are annoying but you do also have to fight a huge room full of them to get the large divine ember. Golems and clams have a good drop rate for upgrade materials if we are talking about Crystal Cave. They are also part of quests in Darkroot Forest and Crystal Gardens for the princess and female Onion knight.
It's funny you mention Dark Wraith as not only are they some of the best enemies to farm in the game, they are also (coincidentally to the original topic of our conversation) the best kind of enemy to fight to learn proficiency in invasion fighting. You can reposite and backstab these enemies and they perform a lot of attacks that get you into a invasion fight mindset.
Anor Londo is another example of enemies that are a new kind of challenge (giants) which require more mobility and selective fighting instead of trying to kill every one.
I'll agree with you in the sense that there are some areas that are better designed for the type of encounters they hold than others, but I don't think it is ever the case for a player to reach an area for the first time where they will just run past every enemy and never attempt or have to fight any of them. They may be too strong and thus encouraged to come back later, but no enemy is designed to be invincible.
Dark Souls is very much about learning limits and managing risk-reward ratios.
Co-op is literally a summons. Like a summons in FInal Fantasy, it was never meant to permanent help. It was never supposed to be traditional coop. I wish people would stop trying to insist that Dark Souls follow the trafitional conventions of coop play or allow for them. It is doing something different.
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
We aren't talking about farming. Each of the areas, on its own, from start to boss, is noticeably weaker than those before.
yeah i wouldn't mind the invader being scaled down to the lower level, undead player. maybe that should be a covenant for invaders with a "spec of honor."
I really hope this is the case. Dark Souls had such an absurd range of levels for you to get invaded by and it was EXTREMELY annoying. I don't want myself and the Way of Blue people to be helplessly killed because of the huge level differences.
Let's hope these Way of Blue dudes get summoned fast, too.
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
I was talking about farming because what I understood of your position meant that there are enemies that aren't designed to be fought, period. Which is incorrect not only from an enemy loot standpoint for gaining items, fighting experience and souls, but also as guardians for certain treasure chests.
I also didn't talk exclusively about farming, and was quite detailed on many of the reasons for fighting different enemy types, so a one-line response does not really begin to address what I wrote.
Many enemies provide experience in the type of environment or area they are in for other enemies you will encounter there. Rarely do you enter an area where every single enemy acts differently. Each enemy is often tailored to the style of approach you will most likely use in that area.
I agreed with your observation that some areas are not as well designed as others, but I disagree that from the start of the game every area is worse than the last. There are highs and lows but I don't believe area quality is fairly represented by such a steep scale.
That would be brilliant.
Playing offline seems exactly what you want then.
But I don't entirely get the complaint. Dark Souls always had PvP and co-op elements even if you played offlinke NPCs would fill those rolls and they would still be dressed as multiplayer spirits and even given names that make them sound like other players a lot of the time.
Because I love Dark Souls?
I honestly don't care what type of game From was trying to make and I don't much care about their vision. I played the game I wanted to. The game that would allow me to have the most fun and that lead me to playing the game with my friend and it was a great experience. They're taking the most fun aspect of their game and fucking with it which bugs me. And I'm not even talking about coop play. I'm talking about summoning in general. That was the most fun I had in the game. I was always looking to summon and I was always look to BE summoned. And I almost never invaded. I only did so in the forrest because I know people welcomed it. Otherwise I didn't really bother with it.
And we didn't chat by the way. Other than to specify where we were dropping summons.
Red Liquorice
Member
Re: Post-Anor Londo being weaker. They did admit to Lost Izalith being rushed.
Don't forget about Dukes, that's certainly a strong area - the design is great, enemies hit hard, turning staircases, a seemingly inesacapable death, getting locked in the tower, stopping the creepy gramophone! Leading to the Crystal Caves with those invisible walkways, this is all good stuff guys, Dukes is an awesome place.
TotG is cool too and scary, those fucking dogs I still only take out with Fire Orb because I don't want to deal with them melee.
It's true you can run past almost everything later on - but your first run you don't know that.
Don't forget about Dukes, that's certainly a strong area - the design is great, enemies hit hard, turning staircases, a seemingly inesacapable death, getting locked in the tower, stopping the creepy gramophone! Leading to the Crystal Caves with those invisible walkways, this is all good stuff guys, Dukes is an awesome place.
TotG is cool too and scary, those fucking dogs I still only take out with Fire Orb because I don't want to deal with them melee.
It's true you can run past almost everything later on - but your first run you don't know that.
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
Truly the most fun I've had with invasions is when the invader and I are truly matched. No cheap gear or overpowered gimmicks. Just two souls battling it out for supremacy. I won't say I've never been subsequently killed in these encounters due to monsters or clever environmental traps (been kicked/blasted off my fair share of ledges) but at least I always felt I died fairly or won honorably in each encounter. But I've also dealt with a lot of dickwraithes and people killing me instantly in cheap ways. It does suck.
The more balance From can bring to invasions the less I think people will be upset about encountering them. It's a hard tightrope to walk though, between creating a fair balance and not giving the invaded too much favor. You're the prey, you are meant to be hunted.
The more balance From can bring to invasions the less I think people will be upset about encountering them. It's a hard tightrope to walk though, between creating a fair balance and not giving the invaded too much favor. You're the prey, you are meant to be hunted.
Lost Izalith, that's the one. And you're spot on about running past. In fact if you don't know an area, running past the first time you are there you are likely to die very quickly which makes it a bad strategy. It was never my intention to assert that you are meant to kill everything in an area every time you visit. It's easier once you know what the score is, to simply kill what you have to in order to progress. I just meant that there are no encounters where you are just meant to run past everything the first time you get there and never attempt to kill them to explore what they hold or are guarding.
AmethystEnd
Member
I'll admit I did not read the entire thread, but for the people complaining about invasions while Hollow:
What the hell is the difference between purposely playing as Hollow because you don't want to be invaded, and just playing offline?
Seriously.
What the hell is the difference between purposely playing as Hollow because you don't want to be invaded, and just playing offline?
Seriously.
All of these bulletpoints sound beautiful...
BASED FROM
I'll love invading and get invaded in this game, especially now that there are dedicated servers now.
Dukes Archive was fantastic. So is the stuff from Artorias of the Abyss. That's one of my favorite areas in the entire game. The village section was a like an inverted Undeadburg but with more devious enemies and traps. You definitely couldn't just run through it. Those sorcerers (seriously fuck those guys) would kill you dead in 5 seconds. And until you drain the water, Londo Ruins is also great, creepy, atmospheric with winding narrow passages and ghosts that come at you up through the floors and walls.
Yeah Crystal Cave and Lost Izalith don't have much going on, but the lead up to both of those areas are great. I just kind of consider them mini-areas/rooms before the bosses anyway. They are more like Valley of the Drakes, small set pieces, rather htan fully fleshed out areas and that's ok too.
MoogleWizard
Member
It all sounds great. I like the idea of invasions while hollow, there's nowhere to hide anymore! lol. Those not too keen on PvP can join the covenant that summons a friendly phantom when you get invaded, great idea I think.
The other online features like messages are disabled?
That all depends on how many players join the covenant to help invaded players. And as the game gets older and less people are playing it, the online playerbase is going to skew heavily towards PVPers who know the game inside and out and, if the levelling mechanics are similar to Dark Souls 1, how to game the system and grief low-level players.
I wouldn't want to be a player with no Dark Souls experience who picks the game up on a Steam sale a year after release if this is how it plays out!
Red Liquorice
Member
They want their bloodstains and Praise the Sun messages, don't you see!
Hey, I was right!
You can't see hints or be summoned while offline? I also loved watching bloodstains.
Not being invaded when you were hollow gave the advantage of concentrating on the game itself, which was nice at times. But this will certainly add to the misery and reward of the experience, which is what the series is really all about. At least they are not shying away from that. Time to step it up with that safety net being stripped away.
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
Sakuraba is doing DS2 soundtrack
So basically you guys do want easy mode. You don't want the risk of being invaded but you want hints from other players.
Yep. Only place I feel is kind of weak is the path to and including Bed of Chaos. I like the remaining areas just fine.
I believe some of both of those still populate the world even in offline mode.
AmethystEnd
Member
I see. I didn't realize people cared that much for messages apart from joke ones.
TheJollyCorner
Member
The only thing I'm not too thrilled with.
I'm sure there will be some ring to minimize this, but still... that's one less ring slot. :/
The only time I beat an invader in the previous souls games was usually due to their own screw up (i.e. falling off the edge of a cliff). I suck at PvP... so yeah... I guess I'm not too crazy about being invaded while hollow. It added a nice give/take element when deciding to go 'whole' previously- more HP, can summon helper phantoms, but the fear of invasion was looming. Now it's a constant fear? Bleh.
Red Liquorice
Member
All reward, no risk. Not exactly Souls is it.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
You still get some online interactions while not getting de-leveled and equipment broken by some jackass a hole.
Backfoggen
Banned
I hope they don't water down invasions now they can happen to everybody.
I don't know. I just thought they were pretty cool. Made you feel part of a bigger world. I would never think of playing it offline.
FreddieQuell
Member
People are going to respond with real indignation to this, but I agree. From wants the Souls games to be as hardcore as possible. If you want easy mode the souls games aren't meant for you. Deep Down seems like it is aiming to scratch that itch.
edit:
And by that I mean Deep Down seems like it will have a similar gameplay style, without the hardcore "Prepare To Die" aspect. I also think it looks awesome btw.
I don't think invasions made the game "hard". Just annoying. I hated seeing that I got invaded then stopping in my tracks to address it. The fact that you could only be invaded and summon while alive was a nice little trade off for me. Yea you're alive and get help but you can also be invaded and when you're hollowed you won't get invaded but you can't get help so you're left to your own devices.
Now they're blurring that line for some reason and I assume you'll need some sort of item to avoid being invaded (I didn't read the article). Seems like they're needlessly adding an extra layer. It seems very artificial to me.
Ultimately, they will not get more people to buy the game if the griefing/forced PvP get worse. They will turn off the people who planned on getting the game for co-op/single player mode. This is why I think there are going to be some ways around invasions. Sales would drop, not go up. it is a niche game as it is, and one I enjoy.
Unplugging the wire is not an option as that makes the world feel really bland and lifeless. Seeing the white phantoms of people fighting around you almost made it feel like you were playing with others, even if not.
Unplugging the wire is not an option as that makes the world feel really bland and lifeless. Seeing the white phantoms of people fighting around you almost made it feel like you were playing with others, even if not.
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
I almost forgot about that spell that shoots a cloud of poison that breaks enemy equipment, lol.
Yeah Deep Down is really the game I think a lot of people are looking for. It's designed for co-op play and people who want to grind for epic loot. It basically is the follow up to Monster Hunter.
That's not my type of game and that's fine. I wouldn't want them to cut co-op out of Deep Down or make it less focused on loot-grind just to suit me. I know there are people who love that kind of game, it is just not for me.
Dark Souls' multiplayer components were always unique. It was never trying to give a pure versus mode or a pure Co-op experience. It was always trying to blend those aspects seamlessly into something new, something that isn't entirely single player but isn't heavily multiplayer focused in any traditional sense either. I wish the people who keep yelling "I don't want to have to fight invaders" or "I want to co-op the entire game with my buddy" would just respect the type of game it is trying to be instead of wanting it to be like other games.