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[MoogleWizard]

That all depends on how many players join the covenant to help invaded players. And as the game gets older and less people are playing it, the online playerbase is going to skew heavily towards PVPers who know the game inside and out and, if the levelling mechanics are similar to Dark Souls 1, how to game the system and grief low-level players.
I wouldn't want to be a player with no Dark Souls experience who picks the game up on a Steam sale a year after release if this is how it plays out!

You're right on that aspect. In-game summons wouldn't work either since the AI will never be a match for a real player. I guess offline would be the better option once the community gets smaller and more experienced, which sucks because you lose the other great online stuff like player ghosts, bloodstains and messages.

I do hope they really fix match making and level caps for multiplayer and really polish the game so you can't get very powerful gear at low levels to prevent PVPers from ruining the game for newbies. That was very easy to do in Dark Souls. Oh and fix the stupid backstab, that shit was so broken in the first game.

 

[Nyoro SF]

Calm down everyone... I'm sure there will be caveats to invasions. It's next to impossible that they will allow a constant invasion force in the game, it would just be too disrupting.

 

[Gaogaogao]

so far the gameplay and the enemies of deep down looks like garbage by comparison, I just want to play demon/ dark souls on easy mode.

 

[moho-foe]

I'll admit I did not read the entire thread, but for the people complaining about invasions while Hollow:


What the hell is the difference between purposely playing as Hollow because you don't want to be invaded, and just playing offline?

Seriously.

For me, I liked being able to control when I'm able to be invaded. It allows me to synchronize co-op with friends easily and focus on progressing in the game itself.

It would pretty much give the invaders such a huge upper-hand because they would always be 100% prepared and 99% of the time you would be caught in the middle of something. Seems more annoying than fun or challenging, under the circumstances.

If they really do this it will have to be only in certain areas or only under certain conditions... OR they will have to dramatically increase the allowable time between invasions. otherwise it will just be game-breaking for most people.

 

[Tain]

Playing offline seems exactly what you want then.

But I don't entirely get the complaint. Dark Souls always had PvP and co-op elements even if you played offlinke NPCs would fill those rolls and they would still be dressed as multiplayer spirits and even given names that make them sound like other players a lot of the time.

Those were not that frequent and had no visible lag. Way less illusion-breaking than human players would have been.

I'm torn on if I want to play this offline. I probably won't because the invasion stuff is ultimately cool, but I definitely enjoyed getting Dark Souls early and not seeing many messages pointing out secrets or making jokes.

 

[Rezbit]

I can understand people being upset about the time limit of white phantoms (which we don't know the details of yet).

I don't understand people who are complaining about "potential" hollow invasions, when they can easily play offline, just because they want to see "Amazing chest ahead!"

 

[dancingphlower]

All these people crying about how the game was being made for "casuals", and now we have people bitching about the game possibly being too hard?

 

[TheSeks]

• Possible to be invaded while hollow.

Dark Souls 2: Prepare to Offline

Thanks for making my choice easy, From.

 

[nbthedude]

I can understand people being upset about the time limit of white phantoms (which we don't know the details of yet).

They said in the Polygon article they are still debating whether or not the time limit will apply to boss fights.

Personally, I think it's a really cool idea if it did. It would add an intensity to the boss fights and the summons in general that would be great. As long as there some kind of clear visual timer to indicate how much time you have left.

 

[nbthedude]

All these people crying about how the game was being made for "casuals", and now we have people bitching about the game possibly being too hard?

I wonder how many are the same people. Careful what you wish for, internet.

 

[.GqueB.]

Ultimately, they will not get more people to buy the game if the griefing/forced PvP get worse. They will turn off the people who planned on getting the game for co-op/single player mode. This is why I think there are going to be some ways around invasions. Sales would drop, not go up. it is a niche game as it is, and one I enjoy.

Unplugging the wire is not an option as that makes the world feel really bland and lifeless. Seeing the white phantoms of people fighting around you almost made it feel like you were playing with others, even if not.

Exactly. That sense of community was really great. To those not understanding the complaints, here is the long and short of it:

They're taking the most fun aspect of their game and limiting it
Then taking the most annoying aspect of their game and making it more frequent

It kind of sucks.

 

[Evil Beaver]

Possible to be invaded while hollow.

My butt-hole is ready

 

[SargerusBR]

Exactly. That sense of community was really great. To those not understanding the complaints, here is the long and short of it:

They're taking the most fun aspect of their game and limiting it
Then taking the most annoying aspect of their game and making it more frequent

For you at least...

Invasions aren't annoying for me, they are just another fight.

 

[.GqueB.]

For you at leasat..

Invasions aren't annoying for me, they are just another fight.

Yea I loved all the phantom backstabs and glitches. I hope they fix the system at the very least to make those fights actually fun.

 

[ironcreed]

All these people crying about how the game was being made for "casuals", and now we have people bitching about the game possibly being too hard?

As I always say, developers are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

 

[Jackben]

More like Prepare to Cry, apparently.

 

[FreddieQuell]

Yea I loved all the phantom backstabs and glitches. I hope they fix the system at the very least to make those fights actually fun.

Well that's what the move to server based multiplayer was for wasn't it?

 

[TheJollyCorner]

I don't think invasions made the game "hard". Just annoying.

Agreed 100%.

Easy Mode would be regenerating health, checkpoints (other than bonfires), dumbed down enemy AI, easier accessible co-op, non-breakable weapons/armor, etc.

I don't think anyone that loves Demons/Dark Souls is asking for any of these.
Invasions were designed as a risk-reward option for those that decided to go non-hollow. I know plenty of people that loved the challenge of playing against another human character, taking great pride in testing their skills against another free-thinking player. I also know plenty of people that loved the challenges the game puts in front of you without the unpredictability of a human-controlled aggressor. The challenge was still there regardless of your preference- but the important thing was it allowed players flexibility on how they wanted to play based on their preferences.
Saying players playing in constant hollow form or off-line is "basically easy mode" just sounds like elitist wank to me.

I think as long as they balance the invasions to accommodate this change it will work out fine... but we'll see.

 

[nbthedude]

Agreed 100%.


I think as long as they balance the invasions to accommodate this change it will work out fine... but we'll see.

They clearly are balancing them to make them work better:

-Server side multiplayer (meaning less lag and less chance for hacks)

-stat scaling to make it more of a fair fight

-Way of the Blue Covenant: when you join it, white phantoms automatically come to help you in the fight if you are invaded.

 

[ironcreed]

They clearly are balancing them to make them work better:

-Way of the Blue Covenant: when you join it, white phantoms automatically come to help you in the fight if you are invaded.

Therein lies the balance for those who want it. Invaders face increased risk as well.

 

[.GqueB.]

Well that's what the move to server based multiplayer was for wasn't it?

I certainly hope so. That's the main reason I'm speaking against this. The system was a broken mess. The bulk of my deaths came from people suddenly being behind be back stabbing me and it was just not a great experience.

 

[Midou]

Dark Souls 2: Prepare to Offline

Thanks for making my choice easy, From.

I'd hope people try it out first, they very well could be balancing out everything and that does seem to be their intention. I get going offline after some frustration, but not experiencing an entire part of the game and giving up pre-emptively seems silly.

 

[Toytown Assassin]

I'll admit I did not read the entire thread, but for the people complaining about invasions while Hollow:


What the hell is the difference between purposely playing as Hollow because you don't want to be invaded, and just playing offline?

Seriously.

I'll miss out on being called in for co-ops while im still clearing the area in my own world. That's about it. I'll just go back online after the boss is dead instead.

I'd hope people try it out first, they very well could be balancing out everything and that does seem to be their intention. I get going offline after some frustration, but not experiencing an entire part of the game and giving up pre-emptively seems silly.

The only thing the could possibly do to allow someone as bad at pvp as me to stand a chance is have some form of player ranking./match making for the invasions to ensure that only really really bad pvp players enter my world

 

[tokkun]

Well that's what the move to server based multiplayer was for wasn't it?

It will fix a lot of things. The number of messages and bloodstains in Dark Souls was much lower than in Demon Souls (which had server-client multiplayer). It was harder to find summon symbols. It took a lot longer to summon/be summoned. Summons and invasions often failed/disconnected. Some covenants seemingly never worked (Gravelord), and others practically didn't due to difficulty of finding people (Dragon).

 

[Midou]

The only thing the could possibly do to allow someone as bad at pvp as me to stand a chance is have some form of player ranking./match making for the invasions to ensure that only really really bad pvp players enter my world

lol, they might do something like that I suppose, but we'll see. I think the Way of Blue is supposed to help you in that regard though.

 

[H_Prestige]

I don't think anyone that loves Demons/Dark Souls is asking for any of these.
Invasions were designed as a risk-reward option for those that decided to go non-hollow.

And now they are designed as a risk reward option for those that decide to go online. Offline is now the new hollow/soul form. Practically it's the same exact thing, you just won't see player messages.

 

[KarmaCow]

All these people crying about how the game was being made for "casuals", and now we have people bitching about the game possibly being too hard?

Well I think people wanted the game to be difficult and balanced. PvP is inherently random.

Take the Mirror Knight fight. The difficulty seems to come from that player joining the fight rather than the mechanics if the boss. With things like frequency and quality of invaders being so up in the air it can be annoying to formulate a plan.


Personally I don't know what to think. I played Dark Souls mostly hollow but I trust them to not offload the difficulty to the community in the form of PvP.

 

[Draft]

Safety from invasion while hollow is such a Souls trope at this point I doubt they are getting rid of it altogether. I bet there will be an area, probably an optional or PVP focused area, where invasions can occur on hollow players.

 

[nbthedude]

Well I think people wanted the game to be difficult and balanced. PvP is inherently random.

Take the Mirror Knight fight. The difficulty seems to come from that player joining the fight rather than the mechanics if the boss. With things like frequency and quality of invaders being so up in the air it can be annoying to formulate a plan.

The two are not separable in that fight. If you destroy his shield fast enough, no invasions. It's an absolutely genius blend of single and multiplayer of a type that only From is doing. The invasions occuring in hollow form is another example of them pushing more into this territory.

Again, they are doing cool blending of multiplayer and single player that no other series has done before. It's really inventive and they don't get enough credit for it. I love that they are pushing forward even more in that territory.

 

[nbthedude]

Safety from invasion while hollow is such a Souls trope at this point I doubt they are getting rid of it altogether. I bet there will be an area, probably an optional or PVP focused area, where invasions can occur on hollow players.

No, they are pretty specific in the interview quotes. They are designing it so people don't use hollow form as a crutch, so people are encouraged to turn human.

 

[Stallion Free]

I can't believe how many people are already giving up and running to Offline mode.

I encountered some of the most rage-inducing assholishness in Demon's Souls (1 shot backstab while passing through the 3-3 boss fog door anyone?) and I still never swtiched to offline. Dark wasn't as bad on PC either. There are plenty of ways to fuck invaders too, like entering boss fog (managed to do it 3x recently while on an NG+ run).

 

[zma1013]

Any word if they're balancing armor types? Like, will there be a benefit to wearing heavy armor this time?

 

[Serra]

lol at the amount of people crying about getting invaded.

I can't wait!

 

[tokkun]

Well I think people wanted the game to be difficult and balanced. PvP is inherently random.

Take the Mirror Knight fight. The difficulty seems to come from that player joining the fight rather than the mechanics if the boss. With things like frequency and quality of invaders being so up in the air it can be annoying to formulate a plan.

No different from Old Monk in Demon's Souls.

I encountered some of the most rage-inducing assholishness in Demon's Souls (1 shot backstab while passing through the 3-3 boss fog door anyone?) and I still never swtiched to offline.

Well, to be fair, 3-3 is only one fight, and it is the only place in Demon's Souls where you have to do PvP even if you are in soul form. It is a different story if that sort of thing is happening to you constantly throughout the whole game.

Nevertheless, I think there will almost certainly be an in-game mechanism of limiting invasions, it will just be through an item or a covenant rather than through being in soul/hollow form. I think this is just another occasion of people overreacting based on one piece of information from an interview and for some reason assuming the worst about the game design.

 

[velociraptor]

I can't believe how many people are already giving up and running to Offline mode.

I encountered some of the most rage-inducing assholishness in Demon's Souls (1 shot backstab while passing through the 3-3 boss fog door anyone?) and I still never swtiched to offline. Dark wasn't as bad on PC either. There are plenty of ways to fuck invaders too, like entering boss fog (managed to do it 3x recently while on an NG+ run).

My only issue with invasions are the glitchy backstabs.

Besides that, invasions are fun. I can understand why they may put off people who are new to the game though.

It's worse when you get killed by the A.I., and while you are on your jolly way to reclaim your dropped souls, you get invaded and killed.

Fucking hate it when that happens.

 

[Orayn]

Any word if they're balancing armor types? Like, will there be a benefit to wearing heavy armor this time?

Well, poise could matter quite a bit in PvP, and heavy armor sets let straight up tank certain bosses if you wanted to. Agility increasing your dodge and movement will only make heavy armor more viable.

My only issue with invasions are the glitchy backstabs.

Besides that, invasions are fun. I can understand why they may put off people who are new to the game though.

It's worse when you get killed by the A.I., and while you are on your jolly way to reclaim your dropped souls, you get invaded and killed.

Fucking hate it when that happens.

Backstabs are getting completely overhauled. You're no longer invincible during the animation, it's possible to "fumble" them if you try to start one from the wrong angle/distance, and there are more variations by weapon type instead of the 3ish different kinds in Dark Souls.

 

[tokkun]

Any word if they're balancing armor types? Like, will there be a benefit to wearing heavy armor this time?

There already was. Poise was a huge deal in the PvP balance in Dark Souls.

 

[Star Falcon]

Changes sound good.

If really don't want to get invaded then you can just play offline.

 

[Switters]

HAHAHAAHAHA! Cull the weak! Give me permanent limb damage and permadeath while you're at it. Can't wait to double, triple dip on what may be the greatest game of all time.

 

[Rich!]

Considering I had people invading me in Dark Souls PC, and taking up the ENTIRE AREA in size with their character due to hacking, and killing me in one hit, I'm fucking worried about this.

Oh wait, what's that? I can unplug the LAN cable? Sounds good to me!!

 

[Deified Data]

Yeah, I'll be that guy who actually complains about the notion of more difficulty in Dark Souls - at least in regards to health reduction while Hollow. Dark Souls ditching that system from Demon's was one of the best design decisions they made.

Maintaining your full life bar after you die encouraged experimentation - it let you keep throwing yourself at a problem until you solved it, oftentimes letting you experiment with tactics you wouldn't otherwise use if you knew that another death equaled a reduced healthbar. I liked that. I hated the spirit form of Demon's Souls because A) dying in human form effected world tendency, and B) SoEE were rare and if you didn't feel like playing co-op or PVP you were doomed to play the entire game at 50% health (or 75%, if you felt like sacrificing a ring slot for the rest of the game).

Everything else I hear sounds nice, and I can even be turned around on this one complaint depending on how it's handled. It really depends on how easily acquired the items that reverse Hollowing are.

Therein lies the balance for those who want it. Invaders face increased risk as well.

Thing is, in Dark Souls, invaders didn't face any risk. If they die, they return to their world and invade again. Hosts assumed 100% of the risk. In DSII, if they're going to make invading more common and difficult to avoid, I hope they pass on a little more risk to the invader.

 

[EasyMode]

There already was. Poise was a huge deal in the PvP balance in Dark Souls.

Hopefully there's no Wolf Ring equivalent this time around. A guy in medium armor with quick rolling shouldn't be armoring through a greatsword hit. That level of tanking should be reserved for the slow, heavy guys.

If they want to increase the difficulty and improve PvP, I hope they nerf rings in general. None of that Wolf, Havel's, Ring of Favor type stuff where there's a huge benefit and little to no drawback.

 

[Durante]

I never really played as hollow at all in Dark Souls for aesthetic reasons, so that particular change doesn't really affect me. I also never had those brutal invasion issues others are talking about. Sure, I was killed a few (dozen) times, but I also killed my fair share of invaders and it was always exciting.

Co-op is literally a summons. Like a summons in FInal Fantasy, it was never meant to permanent help. It was never supposed to be traditional coop. I wish people would stop trying to insist that Dark Souls follow the trafitional conventions of coop play or allow for them. It is doing something different.

I'm not insisting on anything. Dark Souls absolutely was playable in coop, and if they didn't want that then they failed. My question is how putting summons on a timer does anything other than making it slightly more inconvenient (not harder). Is making the game more inconvenient the goal? If not, what is, and is it truly being achieved by that timer?

 

[Sullichin]

Untying online play from hollow form will get more people playing online, which is a good thing. When I first started playing Dark Souls I barely played online because i was never rolling in humanity and it's not exactly obvious how the online works to begin with.

Elemental damage scaling with stats can go a long way in balancing invasion PVP. I wonder how low level runs will play out. I wouldn't be surprised if there was an item/covenant that allowed you to disable invasions permanently or temporarily.

At first I wasn't a big fan of the timed summon thing, but I like the idea that if a summon is killing all of the enemies for a host, they'll have to leave the world faster. I still have a lot of questions about how it works though. What happens when an invader is fighting a white phantom, can they just wait it out until they disappear like you would if you're fighting someone with a buff? Are the blue phantoms time limited too? If you still have time after you beat a boss will your phantom still disappear? How long are these time limits? Do we know if invasions are timed in any way like summons are?

Don't know how I feel about the hollow form health reduction, I was a fan of Dark over Demon's implementation of that. But at the same time being human in Dark Souls doesn't really have enough advantages.

 

[Clevinger]

Yeah, I'll be that guy who actually complains about the notion of more difficulty in Dark Souls - at least in regards to health reduction while Hollow. Dark Souls ditching that system from Demon's was one of the best design decisions they made.

I'd agree IF they kept in the Demons' World Tendency system. I hated in Demons how it felt like you were pushed into being in soul form or you'd lose a bunch of game content and your game would be much, much more punishing. It felt like everyone was playing most the game in soul form.

But here it sounds like you're encouraged to get the human items and play as a human. I like this change a lot.

The only change I'm not too hot on is the white phantom time limit. I get why they did it, but that sucks for everyone who likes to play through the game with a friend.

 

[-tetsuo-]

Exactly. That sense of community was really great. To those not understanding the complaints, here is the long and short of it:

They're taking the most fun aspect of their game and limiting it
Then taking the most annoying aspect of their game and making it more frequent

It kind of sucks.

To a lot of people defending against invasions is one of the most fun aspects, though. I know it is for me.

 

[Ateron]

I think that's the point of the Blue Covenant. Every newbie is going to choose it to have help with invasions until they're ready to go solo. A LOT of players are going to use it, and it'll make things more dangerous for the invaders.



They just need to balance better with levels AND the invader/invadee equipment. It sounds like they might be doing that. They should also disable changing equipment as a phantom.

That's all fine and good if it works. I always had problems with summoning and being summnoned in Dark Souls. So I just go around, doing my business and suddenly I'm invaded. Do I need to rely on the game's poor matchmaking in order to find me an ally asap? Cause unless that aspect is vastly improved, I'm don't think it will be a solution. I could, and hope, to be wrong though.

 

[gogosox8]

I hope people don't get too upset with the invading while hallow thing. Maybe you can only be invaded if your in a convent or something like that so if you don't want to be invaded, just don't join a convent. I think that would be interesting. It would give convents a more fleshed out role in the game. Also you can always just play offline. I don't think its too bad honestly.

 

[nbthedude]

I never really played as hollow at all in Dark Souls for aesthetic reasons, so that particular change doesn't really affect me. I also never had those brutal invasion issues others are talking about. Sure, I was killed a few (dozen) times, but I also killed my fair share of invaders and it was always exciting.

I'm not insisting on anything. Dark Souls absolutely was playable in coop, and if they didn't want that then they failed. My question is how putting summons on a timer does anything other than making it slightly more inconvenient (not harder). Is making the game more inconvenient the goal? If not, what is, and is it truly being achieved by that timer?

The goal is the same as a summons in an RPG like Final Fantasy which are also temporary effects. Summons are basically suppose to be like cool, elaborate magic spells that get you some help from other players for a brief period of time. It is to give you a temporary boost to help you out, not to use it as a crutch. It isn't designed to make it inconvenient to co-op with your bros, it is designed to eliminate that possibility altogether cause that's clearly not how they envision the game working. If they had, the could have easily just allowed friend invites and chats and they didn't.

I will agree with you that they "failed" in that aspect in Dark Souls, though. They made it too easy for people to game the system and use co-op as easy mode and a social hang out hootenany with their bros. That's what they are clearly trying to remedy while simultaneously making summoning itself more exciting. You only got 2 or 3 minutes to take down that boss. A timer is ticking down before your help disappears. That sounds like a cool mechanic to me.

 

[Midou]

Considering I had people invading me in Dark Souls PC, and taking up the ENTIRE AREA in size with their character due to hacking, and killing me in one hit, I'm fucking worried about this.

Oh wait, what's that? I can unplug the LAN cable? Sounds good to me!!

Well I imagine with dedicated servers they will try to do more sorts of checks to make sure people are playing properly. They are obviously aware of all these things but with Dark Souls II around the corner, and the fact that Dark Souls was a rushed PC port, I am sure they will put more effort into making it harder to hack and mod. Obviously there will be people who can probably figure something or other out, but they can likely at least make it so it isn't common.