Polygon: How Dark Souls II will make life even harder

You can tell all the people who only dabbled and never finished Dark Souls. They are the ones complaining about the hollow invasions or limited coop.

Anyone who beat it, probably learned to gain comfidence to fight on their own and handle invasions.

I was kind of worried they wouldnt be able to intimidate me any more, though. I was clearly wrong. These changes are designed to throw down the gauntlet to everyone who beat Dark Souls.

Challenge accepted.

Gonna also reply to this:

Bullshit

Some people just wanna have fun with the game and don't give to shits about a "challenge". I played Dark Souls for over 200 hours (switched characters) and had a blast playing co-op. I love that sense of camaraderie. My friend and I just spent the entire time just summoning each other and having fun suffering through the game together. I never worried about playing "on my own" and beating bosses by myself. I really didn't care. I wanted to have fun.

And invasions were just annoying. They just stopped you in your tracks and forced you to deal with whoever invaded. Having to deal with that on a regular basis just sounds annoying to me. It isn't fun to some people. Completely souring me on the game to be honest.
 
Hmm, SPECIAL animations... I'm thinking the roll will still have i-frames, but animations like the backstab won't.

I can't remember where I heard or read that before but AFAIK, they did change the invincibility of the backstab and riposte. So you have to think about performing that move if you face multiple enemies. Also, I think to recall that the backstabs may vary in length and that it might even be possible to do a simple backstab or mutliple swings for larger damage that take longer (that all depends on weapons of course).
 
We don't know, it could be a prequel, where the Dark Soul isn't fragmented as much.
I think it will be a prequel, and that we will have to fight some gods that haven't been introduced yet.

You know what, i thought it was confirmed a sequel. But considering this new light it makes more sense as a prequel. What with another dragon on the loose and whatnot.
 
It does stand to reason though that you should be able to accept help in hollow form if you are able to be invaded yes?
Hopefully not just the new Blue but also white.
 
Tanimura said he expects players to spend many hours in the beta before they exhaust its content

Aw yes.

I anticipate every possible detail and corner of the beta being explored when it launches in a few weeks. If I can't be part of it I can at least look forward to lots of YouTube/Twitch content.
 
"GO OFFLINE" isn't an acceptable workaround. Any horrible design decision that you have to work around by going offline is still a horrible design decision. It was terrible design when you had to do it to do anything with World Tendency in demon's souls, and- if invasions are actually not stoppable in any way- it's a terrible design now.

With that said, I'm trusting that there *will* be a way to prevent invasions, or that the invasions are only in certain zones or something like that. I don't think FROM is that dumb.
 
What about the most important part:

Is the endgame going to not be boring, rushed nonsense this time?

I would hope so. There have been various statements from FROM where they kinda reveal that they weren't happy with how a lot of Dark Souls turned out, so the sequel having a bigger team, bigger budget, and a longer dev cycle should make a difference.
 
You can tell all the people who only dabbled and never finished Dark Souls. They are the ones complaining about the hollow invasions or limited coop.

Anyone who beat it, probably learned to gain comfidence to fight on their own and handle invasions.

I was kind of worried they wouldnt be able to intimidate me any more, though. I was clearly wrong. These changes are designed to throw down the gauntlet to everyone who beat Dark Souls.

Challenge accepted.

You do not have a clue what you're talking about.
 
There will probably be a crying baby item included in the game that can be activated to disable invasions. I can't see From sacrificing sales of people who want their hand held. Hopefully it will have to be earned, take up a ring slot, or have some other kind of adverse effect limiting rewards in-game in order to be activated.
What about the most important part:

Is the endgame going to not be boring, rushed nonsense this time?
Taking Dark Souls as an example, what are your specific criticisms for the endgame? I'll admit I didn't do much before the DLC except PVP and grind for different kinds of gear. The first New Game + was really entertaining to me though. It was both much easier than my first play as well as incredibly hard due to the fact that I knew more than when I first played and enemies were more deadly and thus fewer mistakes were permittable.
 
Dark Souls is a game that requires you to devote a lot of time to mastering it's various challenges. It is somewhat unforgiving, time wise of your failures also (meaning you have a lot of backtracking to do if you die). Given the limited amount of time I can devote to gaming at any single session (lucky if I get more than an hour uninterrupted), Dark Souls was a challenge for me to progress through WITHOUT invasions, the thought that any little progress I might make would be delayed or destroyed by an invader without any chance of me avoiding it, means there is zero chance I'd pick this game up for full price.

For that reason, I do not like these design choices, but better to hear about them now, before I dropped $60 on it.
 
Honestly after 300 hours of Dark Souls and doing stuff like SL1 runs, anything to make the game harder sounds exciting to me. I still die on silly things now on occasion, but a lot of the game is quite easy. Obviously this would be true of most or all games you play that long for, but I like the core of Dark Souls II being more challenging.

It is somewhat unforgiving, time wise of your failures also (meaning you have a lot of backtracking to do if you die).

That's not really true for the most part though. Other than a few parts at the start of the game, throughout most of the game you can run from bonfire to boss in a minute or two. And that's not with using weird glitches or short cuts (some short cuts, but easy to figure out ones) after playing so long, but the way I was doing it since my 2nd run...
 
Possible to be invaded while hollow.
What. The. Fuck :DDDDDDDDD
No incentive to play as an ugly corpse then, which is great! Also glad that white phantoms are getting nerfed, it felt too much like easy mode. Now if they make it easier and challenging to play with friends it could be the best Souls game ever.
 
Dark Souls is a game that requires you to devote a lot of time to mastering it's various challenges. It is somewhat unforgiving, time wise of your failures also (meaning you have a lot of backtracking to do if you die). Given the limited amount of time I can devote to gaming at any single session (lucky if I get more than an hour uninterrupted), Dark Souls was a challenge for me to progress through WITHOUT invasions, the thought that any little progress I might make would be delayed or destroyed by an invader without any chance of me avoiding it, means there is zero chance I'd pick this game up for full price.

For that reason, I do not like these design choices, but better to hear about them now, before I dropped $60 on it.

Then play offline.
 
Dark Souls is a game that requires you to devote a lot of time to mastering it's various challenges. It is somewhat unforgiving, time wise of your failures also (meaning you have a lot of backtracking to do if you die). Given the limited amount of time I can devote to gaming at any single session (lucky if I get more than an hour uninterrupted), Dark Souls was a challenge for me to progress through WITHOUT invasions, the thought that any little progress I might make would be delayed or destroyed by an invader without any chance of me avoiding it, means there is zero chance I'd pick this game up for full price.

For that reason, I do not like these design choices, but better to hear about them now, before I dropped $60 on it.
The part where you said 'without any chance of me avoiding it'?

1) You can win.

2) We don't know how everything will work yet. Somebody has already said there is a Covenant that can alleviate this and there might be other ways.

EDIT: And yea, 3) Play offline.
 
You can tell all the people who only dabbled and never finished Dark Souls. They are the ones complaining about the hollow invasions or limited coop.

Anyone who beat it, probably learned to gain comfidence to fight on their own and handle invasions.

I was kind of worried they wouldnt be able to intimidate me any more, though. I was clearly wrong. These changes are designed to throw down the gauntlet to everyone who beat Dark Souls.

Challenge accepted.

Terrible post - I've finished Dark Souls like 8 times now and have no problems handling myself during a run. I don't die often in PVE and can fight off invaders. That doesn't stop them from being annoying as shit sometimes when you're trying to do something specific e.g. farming for drops.
 
Gonna also reply to this:

Bullshit

Some people just wanna have fun with the game and don't give to shits about a "challenge". I played Dark Souls for over 200 hours (switched characters) and had a blast playing co-op. I love that sense of camaraderie. My friend and I just spent the entire time just summoning each other and having fun suffering through the game together. I never worried about playing "on my own" and beating bosses by myself. I really didn't care. I wanted to have fun.

And invasions were just annoying. They just stopped you in your tracks and forced you to deal with whoever invaded. Having to deal with that on a regular basis just sounds annoying to me. It isn't fun to some people. Completely souring me on the game to be honest.

Well, I don't know what to say other than the game you are describing doesn't sound like it has much relationship to the type of game From is trying to make. I'm not telling you you are "playing it wrong" just that you should at least understand that the way you were subverting by rigging it to always be co-oping with your friend it isn't representative in any way of From's vision of the series.

There are plenty of games that are co-op loot grinds--Borderlands, Diablo 3, Torchlight 2, a billion MMOs, etc. It sounds like you turned the original Dark Souls into another one of those. Maybe you should just play those instead?
 
Demon Souls & Dark Souls aren't even really "hard". They just require either a high level of natural skill or a patience and practice that most modern games do not. They are also notoriously void of hand-holding and the punishment for failure is often very unforgiving.

Ghosts and Goblins is fucking hard. Dark Souls just requires patience and practice, something a lot of the pay-to-win generation do not want to do. Unfortunately this also turns away older generations who simply don't have the time to learn and practice when they are spending their 1 hour of game time to unwind between working/parenting/being a fucking adult. That sucks, but is also just the way things are.

I feel like with the right knowledge about areas/enemies/items/techniques in Dark Souls games that even the most time-constrained or practice-adverse individual can still make progress. The question is whether they will want to or not.
 
Well, I don't know what to say other than the game you are describing doesn't sound like it has much relationship to the type of game From is trying to make. I'm not telling you you are "playing it wrong" just that you should at least understand that the way you were subverting by rigging it to always be co-oping with your friend it isn't representative in any way of From's vision of the series.

There are plenty of games that are co-op loot grinds--Borderlands, Diablo 3, Torchlight 2, a billion MMOs, etc. It sounds like you turned the original Dark Souls into another one of those. Maybe you should just play those instead?

It doesn't sound like that at all to me dude, he really has a point.

All people are saying is that it could get intrusive - you had a choice before as to whether you opened yourself up for invasion, now you apparently don't.
 
Being invaded while Hollow is some bullshit. Hopefully something like that would be an option that folks can opt in to with an options setting, something like, "Normal Invasion Rules" vs. "Hardcore Invasion Rules." I just don't see how it can be a positive to force people who like the Souls games, but not PvP, into using a work around like going offline to avoid it.
 
That's not really true for the most part though. Other than a few parts at the start of the game, throughout most of the game you can run from bonfire to boss in a minute or two. And that's not with using weird glitches or short cuts (some short cuts, but easy to figure out ones) after playing so long, but the way I was doing it since my 2nd run...

Last time I started a playtrhough (been a couple months now) I stopped at four kings, can you run through from shrine to four kings in a couple of minutes? Sure if you have the time to memorize the quickest way there avoiding all possible fights between, which takes... time. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm saying not everyone has the time to devote to do it. Hell I'm not even saying I don't WISH I had the time, I'd love to know more about this game, I just simply don't sadly.

The part where you said 'without any chance of me avoiding it'?

1) You can win.

2) We don't know how everything will work yet. Somebody has already said there is a Covenant that can alleviate this and there might be other ways.

EDIT: And yea, 3) Play offline.

Sure, but time spend battling invaders is NOT time spent progressing towards the end game (though admittedly it does give you souls).

I agree that if info changes or as new things are learned I could change my stance on picking this up day one. With what I know now, It would be more of a budget buy for me.

Then play offline.

I did sometimes in Dark Souls (played in party mode on the 360, which basically = offline mode); but the world does feel less vibrant/alive. Mostly just stayed hollow, or when I felt like I really knew an area, I'd reverse hollow and not worry about invaders. IF it would be that easy to avoid (party mode to disable online) I could do that again.
 
You do not have a clue what you're talking about.

It doesn't sound like that at all to me dude, he really has a point.

All people are saying is that it could get intrusive - you had a choice before as to whether you opened yourself up for invasion, now you apparently don't.

The guy played the entire game in co-op with his friend (I would guess while chatting with him). That clearly isn't the type of game From is making. Obvously. They made conscious choices to cut off voice chat and to not allow you to just invite friends to your game.

He was playing Doom with Godmode on. Which is fine, I"m not telling him his type of fun was wrong, but it clearly isn't compatible with what From is trying to do with this series. Dark Souls isn't a supposed to be a co-op loot grind.
 
There will probably be a crying baby item included in the game that can be activated to disable invasions. I can't see From sacrificing sales of people who want their hand held. Hopefully it will have to be earned, take up a ring slot, or have some other kind of adverse effect limiting rewards in-game in order to be activated.Taking Dark Souls as an example, what are your specific criticisms for the endgame? I'll admit I didn't do much before the DLC except PVP and grind for different kinds of gear. The first New Game + was really entertaining to me though. It was both much easier than my first play as well as incredibly hard due to the fact that I knew more than when I first played and enemies were more deadly and thus fewer mistakes were permittable.

It's not about crybabies. PVP is simply different from the rest of the game. You can learn to efficiently beat Dark Souls. You can't learn to efficiently win at PVP. It's forcing a random, previously optional element into a game that was all about learning your way through each area.

None of the enemies post-Anor Londo, aside from crystal hollows and Darkwraiths, can be riposted. Most of the enemies are just huge and do tons of damage with no efficient way of killing them, encouraging you to run straight past them. There are no unique scenarios that require thinking or trying different approaches to get through. You just sprint past them. They're just dull areas with limited enemy variety that you run straight through.
 
That doesn't stop them from being annoying as shit sometimes when you're trying to do something specific e.g. farming for drops.

Solution 1: Play offline if you are farming.
Solution 2: Don't farm in an area until you have beaten the boss; in previous Souls games you would not get invaded in areas you'd cleared.

Those seem like fair enough options, and I don't think the game ought to be optimized around supporting farming anyway.
 
Then play offline.

That solution is a step backwards considering the first 2 games allowed people to play online without forcing them into PvP. Like myself, I'm sure there's plenty of Souls fans who enjoyed online aspects of the game while not caring for PvP. This sounds like a bad deal for us.
 
I think the whole point of adding invasions while hollow was to remove a sort of "easy mode" that Dark Souls had. FROM wants the game to give the players as many options as possible in how they face the game's challenges, but the challenges themselves should be the same for everyone, invasions included. I'm sure some additional effort will go into balancing invasions to keep things from getting completely out of hand, but it's an idea I like in principle.
 
It's not about crybabies. PVP is simply different from the rest of the game. You can learn to efficiently beat Dark Souls. You can't learn to efficiently win at PVP. It's forcing a random, previously optional element into a game that was all about learning your way through each area.

None of the enemies post-Anor Londo, aside from crystal hollows and Darkwraiths, can be riposted. Most of the enemies are just huge and do tons of damage with no efficient way of killing them, encouraging you to run straight past them. There are no unique scenarios that require thinking or trying different approaches to get through. You just sprint past them. They're just dull areas with limited enemy variety that you run straight through.
For the games From has created, there is a difference between PVP and Invasions. PVP is specifically sought out fights using a variety of methods to battle other players. Invasions are built into the game even to the point of many NPCs invading you, dropping items and sometimes teaming up with you later if you best them. This is part of the game they have created meant to be part of the PVE challenge. I admit there is a need in some circumstance to balance the strength level of possible invaders, but the invasion challenge has always been purposeful. It's meant to be part of the main game.

And I absolutely disagree about PVE knowledge not applying to invasion encounters. Knowing the area, your abilities, range of weapons ect. all play hugely into your ability to deal with invasions. By reaching the boss of an area, they are dispelled. You can summon allies. You can disguise yourself with certain spells. You can move to an area that has environmental hazards or steep falls. There are infinite possibilities and your knowledge of how to play certainly applies to invasions.
 
Last time I started a playtrhough (been a couple months now) I stopped at four kings, can you run through from shrine to four kings in a couple of minutes? Sure if you have the time to memorize the quickest way there avoiding all possible fights between, which takes... time.

Actually that one a friend showed me. :P

Yeah you can.
You run past all the ghosts and not up the stairs, you look down at end of ledge, and you can get down there to skip a lot of stuff

Honestly there is no shame as far as I see it to look up youtube shortcuts if you're getting frustrated running back. After I saw the Four Kings shortcut one time from my friend, I've managed to do it every single time afterwards, dying only about 5% of the time on the way. :P
 
You can tell all the people who only dabbled and never finished Dark Souls. They are the ones complaining about the hollow invasions or limited coop.

Anyone who beat it, probably learned to gain comfidence to fight on their own and handle invasions.

I was kind of worried they wouldnt be able to intimidate me any more, though. I was clearly wrong. These changes are designed to throw down the gauntlet to everyone who beat Dark Souls.

Challenge accepted.

I played them both, and have the platinum. I think the hollow invasions is bullshit.

If I want the extra challenge, I return to human state and then I can't complain. But if I make the decision of playing the damn game, in peace and quiet, while enjoying the added atmosphere that seeing other players move, leave messages and bloodstains bring to it, they shouldn't pull this on me.

They will force me to go offline most of the time, at least till I think I'm ready for facing opponents, be them regular opponents or opponents who regularly cheat. This won't end well cause of those guys, and we all been there, facing someone with an overpowered item in low levels (cause of duplication or some other exploit).

Simple solution: Make sure that the invader will have to deal with the monsters in the area, same as you. That would make many think twice before invading.
 
Most of the enemies are just huge and do tons of damage with no efficient way of killing them, encouraging you to run straight past them. There are no unique scenarios that require thinking or trying different approaches to get through. You just sprint past them. They're just dull areas with limited enemy variety that you run straight through.
Outside of the area before Bed of Chaos, which is acknowledge by both players and developers to have been a rushed and shitty area, I can't think of any parts in the game where this is true.
 
Demon Souls & Dark Souls aren't even really "hard". They just require either a high level of natural skill or a patience and practice that most modern games do not. They are also notoriously void of hand-holding and the punishment for failure is often very unforgiving.

Ghosts and Goblins is fucking hard. Dark Souls just requires patience and practice, something a lot of the pay-to-win generation do not want to do. Unfortunately this also turns away older generations who simply don't have the time to learn and practice when they are spending their 1 hour of game time to unwind between working/parenting/being a fucking adult. That sucks, but is also just the way things are.

I feel like with the right knowledge about areas/enemies/items/techniques in Dark Souls games that even the most time-constrained or practice-adverse individual can still make progress. The question is whether they will want to or not.

I agree completely. Actually I am crap at games that require really good reflexes these days cause I'm old and I was never good at them to begin with frankly. But Dark Souls doesn't require good reflexes. It just requires patience, observation, and strategy.

To your second point, I have a buddy who is a very casual gamer (never reads game magazines or websites or anything, just asks me for advice on what to play), and he has two small kids, a full time job, and has to take care of his mother-in-law who is an invalid. And he has been playing for around an hour a day for the last month or so and he loves it. He cleared Anor Londo earlier this week and is still making good progress.

I did never expect people who are huge fans about the series to be the types that would complain about something making the game harder or "annoying."

Maybe they can pull a Igataki and just make a giant chicken head and anyone who wants to cry about being invaded can just put on the giant chicken head and not have to worry about being invaded.
 
If they fix the shitty back-stab-a-thons, maybe PVP will be fun. I won't mind getting invaded then. However, if I continue to get backstabbed from the front, I will be irate.
 
If they fix the shitty back-stab-a-thons, maybe PVP will be fun. I won't mind getting invaded then. However, if I continue to get backstabbed from the front, I will be irate.

Back stabbing is really different in DS II so I think that will change.
 
its not specifically the hollow invasions that I find stupid, hasn't anyone dealt with bullshit invaders in Dark Souls with Maxed pyromancy, or +5 lightning weapons in the first few "stages" of dark souls? That pissed me off, that is not a challenge its a frustration
 
If they fix the shitty back-stab-a-thons, maybe PVP will be fun. I won't mind getting invaded then. However, if I continue to get backstabbed from the front, I will be irate.

The multiplayer is server side now not PVP. So whether it was hacks or lag, that probably is way less likely to happen now.
 
Man I thought this game was going to get easier. Now I can be invaded regardless of if I'm hollow or not?

Bring it on! Can't wait for this game. And that's interesting that they're going for a more DeS feel since there is no more humanity.
 
Last time I started a playtrhough (been a couple months now) I stopped at four kings, can you run through from shrine to four kings in a couple of minutes? Sure if you have the time to memorize the quickest way there avoiding all possible fights between, which takes... time. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm saying not everyone has the time to devote to do it. Hell I'm not even saying I don't WISH I had the time, I'd love to know more about this game, I just simply don't sadly.
You can certainly run from Firelink Shrine to 4 Kings in a minute without engaging a single enemy, done it many times. What's to memorize, by the time you've visited the area once or twice, you have it down - it's literally a straight run, not a labyrinthian undertaking.

And almost all the areas are like this. Once you've unlocked a door or a lift, the run to the boss is as fast as you could possibly want it, without spawning at the boss door or something stupid like that. Which if that is what anyone wants - wrong series guys. Even playing offline isn't going to help these cases, lol.
 
its not specifically the hollow invasions that I find stupid, hasn't anyone dealt with bullshit invaders in Dark Souls with Maxed pyromancy, or +5 lightning weapons in the first few "stages" of dark souls? That pissed me off, that is not a challenge its a frustration

Someone posted a link to an interview earlier that implied that PvP damage would be weighted so that is fair.
 
If they fix the shitty back-stab-a-thons, maybe PVP will be fun. I won't mind getting invaded then. However, if I continue to get backstabbed from the front, I will be irate.

I think that will be improved due to them using a server-client architecture in DS2 rather than P2P. The reason backstabs were broken was because of lag.
 
its not specifically the hollow invasions that I find stupid, hasn't anyone dealt with bullshit invaders in Dark Souls with Maxed pyromancy, or +5 lightning weapons in the first few "stages" of dark souls? That pissed me off, that is not a challenge its a frustration

That's why they will have things like the Way of Blue, and who knows, maybe they will have ways to limit that sort of thing.

edit: ah beaten
 
its not specifically the hollow invasions that I find stupid, hasn't anyone dealt with bullshit invaders in Dark Souls with Maxed pyromancy, or +5 lightning weapons in the first few "stages" of dark souls? That pissed me off, that is not a challenge its a frustration

It's been confirmed that PvP balance is a much higher priority this time.

Unconfirmed things I have heard:

Pyromancy is now a type of sorcery instead of a stat-independent magic school.

Elemental weapons now scale with various stats instead of being a massive non-scaling damage boost.
 
You can certainly run from Firelink Shrine to 4 Kings in a minute without engaging a single enemy, done it many times. What's to memorize, by the time you've visited the area once or twice, you have it down - it's literally a straight run, not a labyrinthian undertaking.

And almost all the areas are like this. Once you've unlocked a door or a lift, the run to the boss is as fast as you could possibly want it, without spawning at the boss door or something stupid like that. Which if that is what anyone wants - wrong series guys. Even playing offline isn't going to help these cases, lol.

I like the run to the bosses. It's like a short game of medieval fantasy football juking between big monsters to get to the boss. It's almost never more than a minute or two and requires a different strategy/skill set than just fighting them. I feel like a medieval running back when I'm heading for a boss door.
 
Outside of the area before Bed of Chaos, which is acknowledge by both players and developers to have been a rushed and shitty area, I can't think of any parts in the game where this is true.

The Taurus Demon and centipede-thing before Firesage. Zip right past them.

Run past the skeleton beasts because they destroy your health bar and aren't worth fighting. The giant skeletons are easy but won't chase you, so just walk right past them.

No reason to stop and fight the golems or clams in Crystal Cave.

The Darkwraiths in New Londo don't do anything to block your path if you approach from Firelink. You can just run right past them. New Londo was the most promising aside from the horrible "ghost room" before you reach Ingward, but the layout is so plain and the Darkwraiths so few that it doesn't amount to much.

Every area can be run through, but the enemies will at least try to block you or come after you. Undead Parish is a good example of the design done right. In the post-Anor Londo areas, they just stare at you, maybe take a swing at you, but they can't keep up with you or try to block you in the first place.
 
You can tell all the people who only dabbled and never finished Dark Souls. They are the ones complaining about the hollow invasions or limited coop.

Anyone who beat it, probably learned to gain comfidence to fight on their own and handle invasions.

Getting the Platinum trophy in both games counts as dabbling then, eh? I hate invasions and co-op, because it ruins the atmosphere for me. It's not about the challenge or getting griefed, but the Souls games to me are about myself versus the world. Seeing another person rolling around like an idiot just kills it. I don't want anyone else around, helping or hurting.
 
None of the enemies post-Anor Londo, aside from crystal hollows and Darkwraiths, can be riposted. Most of the enemies are just huge and do tons of damage with no efficient way of killing them, encouraging you to run straight past them. There are no unique scenarios that require thinking or trying different approaches to get through. You just sprint past them. They're just dull areas with limited enemy variety that you run straight through.

Yup, the second half (or so) of the game is definitely weaker than the first. It's not just about the enemies though, the environments aren't as dense, very few shortcuts because of the fast travel etc. Having fast travel from the start is actually the thing that worries me most about DS2.
 
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