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[Stallion Free]

I'm not insisting on anything. Dark Souls absolutely was playable in coop, and if they didn't want that then they failed. My question is how putting summons on a timer does anything other than making it slightly more inconvenient (not harder). Is making the game more inconvenient the goal? If not, what is, and is it truly being achieved by that timer?

I could have sworn that I read in one of the previews that there are two white soapstones, one temporary and useable in unique areas and the other being straight up the Dark Souls one.

 

[Red Liquorice]

That's all fine and good if it works. I always had problems with summoning and being summnoned in Dark Souls. So I just go around, doing my business and suddenly I'm invaded. Do I need to rely on the game's poor matchmaking in order to find me an ally asap? Cause unless that aspect is vastly improved, I'm don't think it will be a solution. I could, and hope, to be wrong though.

Dedicated servers this time, they keep saying it.

 

[Sullichin]

I could have sworn that I read in one of the previews that there are two white soapstones, one temporary and useable in unique areas and the other being straight up the Dark Souls one.

from what I read there's just a small and large one with two different time limits, but I'm hoping there's a permanent one as well. Covenants are a much bigger thing this time around, maybe it's incorporated into that.

 

[Zeliard]

ENB mentioned in his recap that the speed of the timer with summoned phantoms is directly tied to the amount of enemies they kill, going down faster as they land more killing blows.

I think that creates a neat little twist; white phantoms will be encouraged to be more guiding and demonstrative rather than just nuking everything in the level, since attempting to do so will kick them out even more quickly. The player who summoned them seems more likely to improve and gain combat experience in such a scenario.

 

[.GqueB.]

ENB mentioned in his recap that the speed of the timer with summoned phantoms is directly tied to the amount of enemies they kill, going down faster as they land more killing blows.

I think that creates a neat little twist, as white phantoms will be encouraged to be more guiding and demonstrative rather than just nuke everything in the level, since attempting to do so will kick them out even more quickly. The player who summoned them seems more likely to improve and gain combat experience in such a scenario.

That's so stoopid.

 

[Vivie]

I like the co op time limit alot, in Dark souls 1 often an experienced player will come in clear a level and boss while the other can stand and watch. It's an unbalanced dynamic really, it gives the host a free pass and he gets nothing out of it. Also many bosses didn't seem programmed for co op, they get glitchy and confused by multiple players making it even easier.
I'm not sure about the hp depletion if you die in undead form though, wasn't a big fan of this in Demon's either, it will make the game tougher for sure.. i guess i'll hold of judgement till I play myself. I'd rather see undead form severely cut chances of rare/good loot drops in it's place.

 

[Durante]

I could have sworn that I read in one of the previews that there are two white soapstones, one temporary and useable in unique areas and the other being straight up the Dark Souls one.

Hmm, I just read this:

Summoned players--players who join the game of another character--no longer automatically exit a game upon the defeat of a boss. By utilizing different sized White Soapstone items, players gain different amounts of time for co-op play, but this allotment depletes as the summoned player defeats enemies. Players can also now summon two players at once, creating a three-player co-op experience.

So basically, you just need to time everything out right so the host always kills the enemies. That would be interesting. Also nice that you no longer need to immediately resummon after each boss.

ENB mentioned in his recap that the speed of the timer with summoned phantoms is directly tied to the amount of enemies they kill, going down faster as they land more killing blows.

I think that creates a neat little twist; white phantoms will be encouraged to be more guiding and demonstrative rather than just nuking everything in the level, since attempting to do so will kick them out even more quickly. The player who summoned them seems more likely to improve and gain combat experience in such a scenario.

Yeah, that sounds much better. I have no issue with tackling the hand-holding problem, but I really enjoy exploring the game together.

 

[tokkun]

Hopefully there's no Wolf Ring equivalent this time around. A guy in medium armor with quick rolling shouldn't be armoring through a greatsword hit. That level of tanking should be reserved for the slow, heavy guys.

If they want to increase the difficulty and improve PvP, I hope they nerf rings in general. None of that Wolf, Havel's, Ring of Favor type stuff where there's a huge benefit and little to no drawback.

That was somewhat balanced out by the fact that you only had two ring slots and there were more than two very good rings. Sure you can equip Wolf and Favor, but then you can't equip Dark Wood Grain or Havel's or Hornet's.

I think that they made Poise too important in Dark Souls. If something like the Wolf Ring didn't exist, light armor characters just wouldn't be very viable since stun lock was so powerful in PvP. One hit with a great sword and you were pretty much dead, because they could get in 3 more hits before you even had a chance to recover.

I do agree with the general sentiment that the rings contribute to a situation where there is not that much variation in capabilities for different builds, because you have guys who are wearing Havel's armor, but can still super roll. It seems like that will be addressed in DS2 by making Agility an actual stat. That way even if you throw on Havel's Ring and DWG, you are not going to be as maneuverable as someone who has spent points on Agility.

ENB mentioned in his recap that the speed of the timer with summoned phantoms is directly tied to the amount of enemies they kill, going down faster as they land more killing blows.

I think that creates a neat little twist, as white phantoms will be encouraged to be more guiding and demonstrative rather than just nuke everything in the level, since attempting to do so will kick them out even more quickly. The player who summoned them seems more likely to improve and gain combat experience in such a scenario.

That actually sounds like a pretty smart idea. I have definitely been in cases where I have been summoned to some guy's world and he just wants to sit back and hide while the summoned phantoms do all the work.

Yeah, that sounds much better. I have no issue with tackling the hand-holding problem, but I really enjoy exploring the game together.

That sounds great, too. I always hated that usually you would only get summoned for boss runs and rarely got to co-op through actual levels with people. Sounds like this will fix that.

 

[justjim89]

So, only play in offline mode? Gotcha. That's how I've been playing Dark souls for a while now, anyway. Never has an interaction with another human in that game been beneficial to me.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

Maybe there are just areas or situations where invasions can occur. Can't just be constant.

 

[Clevinger]

So, only play in offline mode? Gotcha. That's how I've been playing Dark souls for a while now, anyway. Never has an interaction with another human in that game been beneficial to me.

Come on, man. Make one of those invaders your bitch. You can do it.

 

[Durante]

So, only play in offline mode? Gotcha. That's how I've been playing Dark souls for a while now, anyway. Never has an interaction with another human in that game been beneficial to me.

You're missing out on a hugely entertaining part of the game.

 

[RK9039]

I guess we can expect the Cling Ring to make its appearance again because you lose max HP each time you die

I love it. It makes sense, being dead shouldn't reward the player, like in Demon's Souls where you lose a lot of your health when you're in soul form.

 

[Artemis-Thoth]

It's a pretty hefty, detailed article, so here's the rundown:

• Possible to be invaded while hollow.

• 
  
  I'll just play offline then, screw other "players" coming into MY game and waving their epeen around.

 

[Jackben]

You're missing out on a hugely entertaining part of the game.

I'd just leave it. We had this same exact argument like 300 times in the various Dark Souls OTs and there was always that segment of people who bizarrely were extremely stubborn about cutting off a big part of the game from being experienced. Most of it I think was just irrational fear; they had one bad experience or even heard about someone else having a bad experience with it and were too afraid to bother with it from that point on.

 

[justjim89]

Well, to be perfectly honest, I also pretty much have to play in offline mode because as soon as I boot up the game with DSfix on my laptop, I get a message saying framerate is too low for online play. Which is nonsensical because the framerate is no worse than it ever was. But that's neither here nor there.

 

[Nyoro SF]

So, only play in offline mode? Gotcha. That's how I've been playing Dark souls for a while now, anyway. Never has an interaction with another human in that game been beneficial to me.

If you've never summoned a random bro to help you in DkS I feel sorry for you.

Nothing quite like doing a jaunt through a tough level with a stranger to stunlock enemies with you lol

 

[Vivie]

Hmm, I just read this:
So basically, you just need to time everything out right so the host always kills the enemies. That would be interesting. Also nice that you no longer need to immediately resummon after each boss.

Not sure how this will work, usually after beating a boss the first thing to do is save at a bonfire, which can't be done with phantoms present. Also after a boss dies it closes out your ability to host the area, via summoning signs or being invaded.

 

[nbthedude]

That's so stoopid.

Summons in Dark Souls were always meant to be special instance buffs/help, not a hoedown loot grind jamboree with your bros. There are hundreds of other games for that.

I get that that is what you want it to be. But nothing could be more clear that that is not what they wanted since from the start you couldn't invite friends, chat with others, upgrade your stats or leave areas when in summoning/summoned states. The very fact that it is an item you use in the game, not just a menu option demonstrates their intent.

I get it, you want to play loot-grind with your buddy. Deep Down is probably the game for you. Dark Souls is clearly meant as an augmented single player kind of experiences with cool social hooks blended in seamlessly. Wanting Dark Souls to give you seamless co-op with friends is like wanting an MMO to allow you to solo all the content. It's simply not the kind of game it's designed to be.

 

[SeventhSon]

I'd just leave it. We had this same exact argument like 300 times in the various Dark Souls OTs and there was always that segment of people who bizarrely were extremely stubborn about cutting off a big part of the game from being experienced. Most of it I think was just irrational fear; they had one bad experience or even heard about someone else having a bad experience with it and were too afraid to bother with it from that point on.

The part I want to cut out is the minmax obsession over builds for pvp. Such things are incredibly boring to me.

 

[Sullichin]

So, only play in offline mode? Gotcha. That's how I've been playing Dark souls for a while now, anyway. Never has an interaction with another human in that game been beneficial to me.

Guess you never had a phantom show you the invisible platforms in Dukes Archives, or the shortcut to gaping dragon in the depths, or distract Kalameet while you chop off his tail, or a nice invader dropping a titanite slab or opening up the painted world shortcut, or an invader coming back as a white phantom after he kills you to help with the boss...

Anyone who is preemptively already saying they're going to be only playing offline will be missing out, at least give it a chance. It might fix the issues you have with how Dark Souls online works.

 

[Jackben]

Not sure how this will work, usually after beating a boss the first thing to do is save at a bonfire, which can't be done with phantoms present. Also after a boss dies it closes out your ability to host the area, via summoning signs or being invaded.

That's how it worked for Dark Souls. From hasn't even come forward with exactly how bonfires will work in 2 so it's a bit premature to apply Dark Souls restrictions to the sequel when we don't know how the mechanics will work.

 

[AnnTiPa]

I'm a bit worried now. Not because of the changes, they all seem great. Invasions give me such a rush when you've spent ages exploring a new place and I'm sure From will be able to handle online better with their new architecture. They're clearly dedicated, having a separate beta and all.

That's however what I'm worried about. If their anti-cheat system is overly active it might not be possible to mod the game on PC at all and that would most likely mean no 3D compatibility...

 

[tokkun]

Not sure how this will work, usually after beating a boss the first thing to do is save at a bonfire, which can't be done with phantoms present. Also after a boss dies it closes out your ability to host the area, via summoning signs or being invaded.

No reason why that couldn't be changed. Let the host save at the bonfire. If they want to screw around for a while leveling up or backtracking, there are already options to banish phantoms.

 

[Jackben]

Summons in Dark Souls were always meant to be special instance buffs/help, not a hoedown loot grind jamboree with your bros. There are hundreds of other games for that.

 

[Vivie]

That's how it worked for Dark Souls. From hasn't even come forward with exactly how bonfires will work in 2 so it's a bit premature to apply Dark Souls restrictions to the sequel when we don't know how the mechanics will work.

Yep just thinking, er typing, out loud here.

 

[Durante]

I get it, you want to play loot-grind with your buddy.

You repeat this often, and it may be true for some, but no, you don't get it. I don't want to "loot-grind" at all (and as you say, if I would there'd be tons of other games for that). I want to explore a dangerous, detailed and interesting world seeped in unique lore together with someone else. Dark Souls allowed for that, and after reading more about how DS2 works it seems like luckily it will allow for that as well, maybe even more so than its predecessor.

 

[.GqueB.]

Summons in Dark Souls were always meant to be special instance buffs/help, not a hoedown loot grind jamboree with your bros. There are hundreds of other games for that.

I get that that is what you want it to be. But nothing could be more clear that that is not what they wanted since from the start you couldn't invite friends, chat with others, upgrade your stats or leave areas when in summoning/summoned states. The very fact that it is an item you use in the game, not just a menu option demonstrates their intent.

I get it, you want to play loot-grind with your buddy. Deep Down is probably the game for you. Dark Souls is clearly meant as an augmented single player kind of experiences with cool social hooks blended in seamlessly. Wanting Dark Souls to give you seamless co-op with friends is like wanting an MMO to allow you to solo all the content. It's simply not the kind of game it's designed to be.

Why do you keep saying this? I played their game for over 200 hours last go around and I didn't play those 200 hours with my friend. I just liked the option to do so whenever we had the chance. I obviously enjoyed the game otherwise. I like the Souls series and enjoy the experience and I want to play more of it. Keep in mind I'm only complaining about TWO changes here so stop with your elitist bullshit.

I don't want to "loot grind". I kept the same armor for much of the game. I want to play with people and have fun. I want to jump into someones game and not keep a tally of how many people I kill. I want to get people out of tough spots. I want that feeling of community. They're killing that.

 

[Santiako]

Amazing.

I want to be invaded all the time, I want to be invaded while in bonfires, I want to be invaded while in menus, I want to be invaded during boss battles.

BRING IT ON

 

[RK9039]

Casting speed is increased by attunement?! Great idea, no longer by dexterity.

 

[velociraptor]

Summons in Dark Souls were always meant to be special instance buffs/help, not a hoedown loot grind jamboree with your bros. There are hundreds of other games for that.

I get that that is what you want it to be. But nothing could be more clear that that is not what they wanted since from the start you couldn't invite friends, chat with others, upgrade your stats or leave areas when in summoning/summoned states. The very fact that it is an item you use in the game, not just a menu option demonstrates their intent.

I get it, you want to play loot-grind with your buddy. Deep Down is probably the game for you. Dark Souls is clearly meant as an augmented single player kind of experiences with cool social hooks blended in seamlessly. Wanting Dark Souls to give you seamless co-op with friends is like wanting an MMO to allow you to solo all the content. It's simply not the kind of game it's designed to be..

Why are you trying to dictate how others should play their game? The fact the game allows summons to take place is enough that co-op is a way to play the game. Yes, I get it - for the most pure experience, single player is the way to go. But it doesn't mean it is the only way. This elitist mentality is absolutely ridiculous. Games are meant to be played for fun, not some egotistical dick riding contest to show your 'macho gaming skills'.

 

[Jackben]

I'm going to assume you didn't mean to quote me because I didn't say anything like that and your post doesn't make any sense in the context of what Vivie and I were talking about.

Edit:Yep, edited.

You repeat this often, and it may be true for some, but no, you don't get it. I don't want to "loot-grind" at all (and as you say, if I would there'd be tons of other games for that). I want to explore a dangerous, detailed and interesting world seeped in unique lore together with someone else. Dark Souls allowed for that, and after reading more about how DS2 works it seems like luckily it will allow for that as well, maybe even more so than its predecessor.

I think it's about finding the right balance. If you get to experience even more with a co-op partner as long as they are in more of a guardian/guide role (allowing you to making the killing blows etc.) then that is a great change as it allows more time for the summon while simultaneously cutting off the tendency for people to summon phantoms to rush them through the areas.

 

[Nyoro SF]

I want to jump into someones game and not keep a tally of how many people I kill. I want to get people out of tough spots. I want that feeling of community. They're killing that.

They just announced the addition of a covenant that you can join to help other players against invaders, and we get statements like this. LOL

Amazing.

I want to be invaded all the time, I want to be invaded while in bonfires, I want to be invaded while in menus, I want to be invaded during boss battles.

BRING IT ON

LOL, ok this is funny, how did I miss this? Post of the week.

 

[nbthedude]

You repeat this often, and it may be true for some, but no, you don't get it. I don't want to "loot-grind" at all (and as you say, if I would there'd be tons of other games for that). I want to explore a dangerous, detailed and interesting world seeped in unique lore together with someone else. Dark Souls allowed for that, and after reading more about how DS2 works it seems like luckily it will allow for that as well, maybe even more so than its predecessor.

I was talking to that guy in particular who said he just wanted to have fun and played through all of DarkSouls with a friend.

 

[velociraptor]

I was talking to that guy in particular who said he just wanted to have fun and played through all of DarkSouls with a friend.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. If that's how he wants to play the game, then he should damn right be allowed to.

 

[.GqueB.]

They just announced the addition of a covenant that you can join to help other players against invaders, and we get statements like this. LOL

Yes I know that but why make a covenant centered around it? Just let me do it. All of this just feels very artificial. Make your game harder through smart game design not obvious shit like this. Limited summons and more invasions. Yaayyyyyyyy...?

 

[Sullichin]

It would be cool if there was an invasion covenant, similar to the new auto-summon covenant and the forest hunters in Dark Souls, where you automatically invade someone if they walk into a certain area or under certain conditions.

 

[Durante]

I think it's about finding the right balance. If you get to experience even more with a co-op partner as long as they are in more of a guardian/guide role (allowing you to making the killing blows etc.) then that is a great change as it allows more time for the summon while simultaneously cutting off the tendency for people to summon phantoms to rush them through the areas.

I agree. And since I trust From's game design I assume that is the intention.

 

[tokkun]

I don't want to "loot grind". I kept the same armor for much of the game. I want to play with people and have fun. I want to jump into someones game and not keep a tally of how many people I kill. I want to get people out of tough spots. I want that feeling of community. They're killing that.

How do you know they're killing it when we don't even know how long the summons last? For all we know, they could be longer than in Dark Souls since you don't necessarily get booted on a boss kill.

If anything, I expect I will get to do a lot more co-op with DS2 for the following reasons:
1. A lot of people would not go human until a boss fight to avoid invasions, so you would only get summoned near boss doors 95% of the time. With invasions in soul form, people may be more likely to summon at other areas of the level, allowing for more diverse co-op experiences.
2. If you don't get booted after killing a boss, you may get to stick around longer with careful play.
3. The server-based architecture should make it a lot easier to find and connect to other players.
4. The server-based architecture will probably mean the covenants will actually work this time.

I see more to be positive about than negative right now. I don't know why people are so eager to assume the worst about this game.

 

[Durante]

I see more to be positive about than negative right now. I don't know why people are so eager to assume the worst about this game.

I believe it's because they like its predecessor so much. Therefore, every small change sounds like it could "ruin" the experience. I find myself falling into the same trap if I'm not careful.

 

[RK9039]

Oh yes, all elemental buffs scale with stat parameters (more like Demon's Souls). So no more Lightning bs from Dark Souls 1 where you didn't need to level any stats to use it/do more damage because it doesn't scale with anything. This was my biggest issue with Dark Souls.

 

[V_Arnold]

Wait, the online is server-client based no? Meaning no hacks and no unbearable lag-based kills? Then I shall play it plugged in, yaay! (If they do not allow huge differences between player stats, that is.)

 

[Jackben]

Amazing.

I want to be invaded all the time, I want to be invaded while in bonfires, I want to be invaded while in menus, I want to be invaded during boss battles.

BRING IT ON

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

ENB mentioned in his recap that the speed of the timer with summoned phantoms is directly tied to the amount of enemies they kill, going down faster as they land more killing blows.

I think that creates a neat little twist; white phantoms will be encouraged to be more guiding and demonstrative rather than just nuking everything in the level, since attempting to do so will kick them out even more quickly. The player who summoned them seems more likely to improve and gain combat experience in such a scenario.

I can see what they are trying to do but its easily exploitable. White phantoms could just take an enemies health down to 1% and let the host finish it off.

 

[Durante]

Oh yes, all elemental buffs scale with stat parameters (more like Demon's Souls). So no more Lightning bs from Dark Souls 1 where you didn't need to level any stats to use it/do more damage because it doesn't scale with anything. This was my biggest issue with Dark Souls.

Or getting max level Pyromancy on a low-SL character. Those are great changes for PvP.

 

[Vlade]

ENB mentioned in his recap that the speed of the timer with summoned phantoms is directly tied to the amount of enemies they kill, going down faster as they land more killing blows.

I think that creates a neat little twist; white phantoms will be encouraged to be more guiding and demonstrative rather than just nuking everything in the level, since attempting to do so will kick them out even more quickly. The player who summoned them seems more likely to improve and gain combat experience in such a scenario.

I like the way this is shaping up. Previously there was a trade-off; you want help beating things?? well you might get invaded if you go human to summon.

Now it seems they want to work summoning and invasions into the game as a constant possibility, and they are connected in new ways.

LOVE the sound of it, I hope it works out the way I imagine it.

 

[Draft]

No, they are pretty specific in the interview quotes. They are designing it so people don't use hollow form as a crutch, so people are encouraged to turn human.

In FROM we trust, I guess.

 

[tokkun]

Wait, the online is server-client based no? Meaning no hacks and no unbearable lag-based kills? Then I shall play it plugged in, yaay! (If they do not allow huge differences between player stats, that is.)

Well, we shall see about the hacks. It's not like that stuff couldn't have been supported in the P2P setup, since it already contains some match-making algorithms based on SL. Most of the hacks were just changes to stats without increasing SL. If they had included a sanity check on a player's stats during the match-making process, it would have eliminated most of the cheating. I feel like the problem had more to do with a lack of effort/investment into preventing cheating than a technological limitation.

Anyway, cheating was never as big of a problem as balance. Stuff like pre-patch Fog Ring, Tranquil Walk of Peace, and Wrath of God ruined more PvP encounters for me than cheating ever did.

 

[SargerusBR]

Need the source of this gif, its amazing

 

[Manus]

I can't believe a lot of people here played Dark Souls co-op. I feel like that breaks the game. I don't mind summoning for some boss fights, but the whole game? Seems like it would make the game cake.