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Pope Francis Criticizes 'Obsessed' Church Focus On Abortion, Gay Marriage, and more

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Yep

Nicole Winfield And Rachel Zoll – September 19, 2013, 11:14 AM EDT VATICAN CITY (AP) -- Pope Francis is warning that the Catholic Church's moral edifice might "fall like a house of cards" if it doesn't balance its divisive rules about abortion, gays and contraception with the greater need to make the church a merciful, more welcoming place for all.

Six months into his papacy, Francis set out his vision for the church and his priorities as pope in a remarkably candid and lengthy interview with La Civilta Cattolica, the Italian Jesuit magazine. It was published simultaneously Thursday in other Jesuit journals, including America magazine in the U.S.

In the 12,000-word article, Francis expands on his ground-breaking comments over the summer about gays and acknowledges some of his own faults. He sheds light on his favorite composers, artists, authors and films (Mozart, Caravaggio, Dostoevsky and Fellini's "La Strada") and says he prays even while at the dentist's office.

But his vision of what the church should be stands out, primarily because it contrasts so sharply with many of the priorities of his immediate predecessors John Paul II and Benedict XVI. They were both intellectuals for whom doctrine was paramount, an orientation that guided the selection of generations of bishops and cardinals around the globe.

Francis said the dogmatic and the moral teachings of the church were not all equivalent.

"The church's pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently," Francis said. "We have to find a new balance; otherwise even the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards, losing the freshness and fragrance of the Gospel."

Rather, he said, the Catholic Church must be like a "field hospital after battle," healing the wounds of its faithful and going out to find those who have been hurt, excluded or have fallen away.

"It is useless to ask a seriously injured person if he has high cholesterol and about the level of his blood sugars!" Francis said. "You have to heal his wounds. Then we can talk about everything else."

"The church sometimes has locked itself up in small things, in small-minded rules," he lamented. "The most important thing is the first proclamation: Jesus Christ has saved you. And the ministers of the church must be ministers of mercy above all."

The admonition is likely to have sharp reverberations in the United States, where some bishops have already publicly voiced dismay that Francis hasn't hammered home church teaching on abortion, contraception and homosexuality -- areas of the culture wars where U.S. bishops often put themselves on the front lines. U.S. bishops were also behind Benedict's crackdown on American nuns, who were accused of letting doctrine take a backseat to their social justice work caring for the poor -- precisely the priority that Francis is endorsing.

Just last week, Bishop Thomas Tobin of Providence, Rhode Island, wrote in his diocesan newspaper that he was "a little bit disappointed" that Francis hadn't addressed abortion since being elected.

Francis acknowledged that he had been "reprimanded" for not speaking out on such issues. But he said he didn't need to.


"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible," he said. "The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."

Francis, the first Jesuit to become pope, was interviewed by Civilta Cattolica's editor, the Rev. Antonio Spadaro, over three days in August at the Vatican hotel where Francis chose to live rather than the papal apartments. The Vatican vets all content of the journal, and the pope approved the Italian version of the article.

Nothing Francis said in this or other interviews indicate any change in church teaching. But he has set a different tone and signaled new priorities compared to Benedict and John Paul -- priorities that have already been visible in his simple style, his outreach to the most marginalized and his insistence that priests be pastors, not bureaucrats.

Two months ago, Francis caused a sensation during an inflight news conference when he was asked about gay priests. "Who am I to judge?" about the sexual orientation of priests, as long as they are searching for God and have good will, he responded.

Francis noted in the latest interview that he had merely repeated church teaching (though he again neglected to repeat church teaching that says while homosexuals should be treated with dignity and respect, homosexual acts are "intrinsically disordered.")

But he continued: "A person once asked me, in a provocative manner, if I approved of homosexuality. I replied with another question: 'Tell me: when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?'

"We must always consider the person. In life, God accompanies persons, and we must accompany them, starting from their situation. It is necessary to accompany them with mercy. When that happens, the Holy Spirit inspires the priest to say the right thing
."

The key, he said, is for the church to welcome, not exclude and show mercy, not condemnation.

"This church with which we should be thinking is the home of all, not a small chapel that can hold only a small group of selected people. We must not reduce the bosom of the universal church to a nest protecting our mediocrity," he said.
 

Juice

Member
Man, everything this guy says is encouraging until you realize that all he really wants to do is shift the focus off what he still really believes: women are inferior, homosexuality/non-procreative sex is sinful, abortion is murder, and we live in a world of superstition and intrigue where we occasionally eat the body and drink the blood of a long dead zombie Jew.

Until he actually speaks out against those beliefs, Francis is merely an upgrade to the church's marketing.
 
Well reasoned statement from someone who clearly has attempted to think more objectively about the place of the Catholic Church in today's world.

But certain GAFers will kneejerk and claim it's all PR unless he becomes an atheist tomorrow, until the statement will be "clarified"
toned down
by the Vatican establishment shortly

It's a papacy thread.
 

SRG01

Member
Man, everything this guy says is encouraging until you realize that all he really wants to do is shift the focus off what he still really believes: women are inferior, homosexuality/non-procreative sex is sinful, abortion is murder, and we live in a world of superstition and intrigue where we occasionally eat the body and drink the blood of a long dead zombie Jew.

Until he actually speaks out against those beliefs, Francis is merely an upgrade to the church's marketing.

It doesn't matter what he personally believes, as long as he understands that his personal beliefs and the organization/society he represents/trying to reform are two totally different things.

A good analogy is Joe Biden's comments as a Catholic during the Veep debates.
 

Juice

Member
Well reasoned statement from someone who clearly has attempted to think more objectively about the place of the Catholic Church in today's world.

But certain GAFers will kneejerk and claim it's all PR unless he becomes an atheist tomorrow, until the statement will be "clarified"
toned down
by the Vatican establishment shortly

It's a papacy thread.

How is this anything more than marketing? What actual belief has he stricken down?
 
and we live in a world of superstition and intrigue where we occasionally eat the body and drink the blood of a long dead zombie Jew.

I agree with the rest but this is a reductive treatment of what's called a belief. As soon as we move to condemning people for not being empiricists then I'm out.
 

thefro

Member
Father, please get obsessed with poverty and war and people dying bankrupt because they got sick.

He actually organized and led a peace vigil for Syria earlier this month (when it looked like the US was going to bomb).

Francis spent most of the vigil in silent prayer, but during his speech he issued a heartfelt plea for peace, denouncing those who are "captivated by the idols of dominion and power" and destroy God's creation through war.

"This evening, I ask the Lord that we Christians, and our brothers and sisters of other religions and every man and woman of good will, cry out forcefully: Violence and war are never the way to peace!" he said.

"May the noise of weapons cease!" he said. "War always marks the failure of peace, it is always a defeat for humanity."
 
Catholic church is making serious moves to get / keep young people on board. Impressed by whoever is heading this PR and actually convinced all the bishops to go along with it.
 

Platy

Member
Always impresses me how GOOD this guy is at rethoric .... he don't even look like a pope sometimes !

Best choice the christian church made in years !

And yes, this has EVERYTHING to do with marketing =P
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
As much as I continue to question the strength of these comments whilst Catholic doctrine on certain issues remains unchanged, I relish the discomfort this must be causing some of my 'favourite' Catholic commentators/'journalists' etc.
 

ISOM

Member
How is this anything more than marketing? What actual belief has he stricken down?


What pope has come close to saying any of the things he has said? We are talking about an almost 180 degree turn in how the pope handles such topics as figure head of the catholic church.
 

Mumei

Member
Man, everything this guy says is encouraging until you realize that all he really wants to do is shift the focus off what he still really believes: women are inferior, homosexuality/non-procreative sex is sinful, abortion is murder, and we live in a world of superstition and intrigue where we occasionally eat the body and drink the blood of a long dead zombie Jew.

Until he actually speaks out against those beliefs, Francis is merely an upgrade to the church's marketing.

I am skeptical about the extent to which these comments are essentially window dressing for otherwise unchanged beliefs, or whether they signify deeper shifts in the future, but I still don't think they're nothing. They clearly mean something to a great number of Catholics with a more liberal religious perspective than the Vatican (read: The large majority of American Catholics), and particularly to people who had long been the target of vituperative abuse from the Catholic Church - it wasn't that long ago that the Church was referring to gay people as "intrinsically disordered" or homosexuality as a "moral evil."

And I agree with you that speaking out against those beliefs is where I would like to see the RCC, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect an institution as small-c conservative as the Catholic Church to reverse itself on such major theological issues at the drop of a hat. For now, he is an improvement over the previous Pope, and I hope that a more liberal and small-c catholic, er, Catholic tradition becomes the focus of the Church's energies.
 

Mariolee

Member
I don't know if this has too much to do with marketing if the Vatican Church is retracting every little statement that doesn't completely fit in line with what they've believed for centuries that the Pope is saying. It really seems like the Pope is single-handedly (or with God if you prefer to believe) deconstructing the Catholic Church's principles from the inside.
 

ivysaur12

Banned

That's how I feel. And as someone who was deeply hurt by his Church, it'll take more than a few words to shift my opinion from deeply negative to one of maybe just mild annoyance.

Still, it's frustrating the most ardent anti-gay activists, so that's fantastic:

@PeterLaBarbera: The Pope seems to be sanctioning idea of "gay" personhood, which at some level bows to "gay" activist ideology: http://t.co/ZdDqPUZX5l #tcot
 
Ya know, his whole point about falling like a house of cards would actually be a good thing. Not sure I like this guy anymore because he might actually prevent it from happening.
 

Mii

Banned
He's quickly becoming one of my favorite people on this planet.

Even if this is 'marketing', a change in message is a first step in a change in belief.
 
That's a very optimistic interpretation, MisterNegative.

You think he's a wolf in sheeps clothing ? I used to, I'm not sure now though. I'm not the biggest fan of the catholic church but I'll take tolerance over hatred anyday.

A tolerant catholic church that stays the fuck out of politics is win/win for everybody right ?
 
I really like the idea of religion being a field hospital after a battle, treating everyone and not caring who you are/where you come from/what you believe.

Man wouldn't it be nice if every religion were like that? (Including this one because they aren't there yet)
 
I really like the idea of religion being a field hospital after a battle, treating everyone and not caring who you are/where you come from/what you believe.

Man wouldn't it be nice if every religion were like that? (Including this one because they aren't there yet)

That's the core principle of Jesus's teachings / New Testament.

Maybe one day thing's will turn around. I mean, it's already been 2000 years, how much longer could they take?
 
"Those issues are increasing the unpopularity and falling congregation attendance numbers, so let's just not talk about them then have a meaningful discussion about them, k thanx"
 

commedieu

Banned
Sadly, someone's going to assassinate this guy.

You know whats fucked up? I was thinking the same exact thing when I saw the headline.
Some fanatic is going to kill this man, because of tolerance promotion.

You think he's a wolf in sheeps clothing ? I used to, I'm not sure now though. I'm not the biggest fan of the catholic church but I'll take tolerance over hatred anyday.

A tolerant catholic church that stays the fuck out of politics is win/win for everybody right ?

1/2 of me thinks that its because of the Public Relations, and the numbers, and the money. But the other 1/2 sees this guy is actually practicing what 1000's of years have preached.

I just hope he stays safe for it, as tolerance isn't usually part of large, practiced religion.
 

Sye d'Burns

Member
You think he's a wolf in sheeps clothing ? I used to, I'm not sure now though. I'm not the biggest fan of the catholic church but I'll take tolerance over hatred anyday.

A tolerant catholic church that stays the fuck out of politics is win/win for everybody right ?

I think he's being interpreted poorly, mostly due to the sound bite media that exists today. These quotes in the OP were taken initially from a 12,000 word interview after all.

He said this three or four days ago. (Google translate excerpt)

MqRdOP2.png


http://it.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/09/16/papa_francesco_al_clero_romano:_alla_chiesa_serve_conversione/it1-728994 (in Italian)
Google Translate version

From never been better to falling like a house of cards in the span of half a week?
 
That's the core principle of Jesus's teachings / New Testament.

Maybe one day thing's will turn around. I mean, it's already been 2000 years, how much longer could they take?

It's sadly much easier to judge people and hold yourself above them and condemn them. If you can look down a people and consider them not worthy, then you don't have to feel guilty when they suffer.
 

hoos30

Member
Dude is wrecking shop. I wonder if some cardinals feel like they made a mistake by electing him. And he's young enough to hang around for a long time too.

To the naysayers, no, the Catholic Church is not going to change its core beliefs to suit "modern times". The point is that the "core beliefs" never had anything to do with excluding people because of X, Y and Z. If this pope can even lean the Church in that direction, he will have done a lot to reverse its influence and decline.
 

Sye d'Burns

Member
Dude is wrecking shop. I wonder if some cardinals feel like they made a mistake by electing him. And he's young enough to hang around for a long time too.

To the naysayers, no, the Catholic Church is not going to change its core beliefs to suit "modern times". The point is that the "core beliefs" never had anything to do with excluding people because of X, Y and Z. If this pope can even lean the Church in that direction, he will have done a lot to reverse its influence and decline.

Well said.
 
Man, everything this guy says is encouraging until you realize that all he really wants to do is shift the focus off what he still really believes: women are inferior, homosexuality/non-procreative sex is sinful, abortion is murder, and we live in a world of superstition and intrigue where we occasionally eat the body and drink the blood of a long dead zombie Jew.

Until he actually speaks out against those beliefs, Francis is merely an upgrade to the church's marketing.

Why would the church care about good PR? They never have before, and they sure as hell would not want "sinners" to love them. The Church doesn't need any "good PR" when they have hundreds of millions of followers still devoted. To the Vatican who fucking cares if a minority of sinners hates them? They really wouldn't care what us "sinners" think. As far as they care we're already damned.
 
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