PS4K information (~2x GPU power w/ clock+, new CPU, price, tent. Q1 2017)
- Thread starter OsirisBlack
- Start date
Just kidding. Don't know how anyone would expect a solid answer under any circumstance at this time.
jeff_rigby
Banned
PS4.5 probably not this year, PS4K probably as a firmware update.
We have the AMD statement that they expect the sales of XB1 and PS4 APUs to exceed 2015 levels and that wouldn't happen if there was a new PS4.5. It would happen if the XB1 and PS4 are getting firmware updates to support UHD media/embedded Playready, upgraded browsers, ooVoo chat for the PS4, Vidipath, UHD Blu-ray and Digital bridge.
The firmware update roadmap for the PS3 and PS4 has been manipulated so that this October the PS3 gets firmware 5.0 and the PS4 gets 4.0. Sony is playing with numbers to get PS3 + Firmware 5 = 8 = PS4 + Firmware 4 and 8 is a very lucky number to the Chinese. The last three .5 major updates for the PS4 have been named after Japanese Samari heroes and I expect the same for 4.0.
Both are getting Playready embedded and HTML5 <video> EME MSE at the same time! These are the basic software building blocks for Vidipath and UHD blu-ray, IPTV and 4K antenna TV.so I expect some of them to be enabled at the same time (speculation). In the past Blu-ray comes before the new TV standard using the same codec to support the same resolutions. For blu-ray it was supposed to be 1080P and S3D using h.264 with ATSC 2. ATSC 3 uses the EXACT same software stack that UHD blu-ray supports.
I think thats all that will happen as well.
Adam Tyner
Member
None of those things -- if they even happen -- will have the seismic impact on sales that you believe they will.
Risible
Member
Myth or not, all of this talk of upgradable consoles has motivated me to finally give up on the big two. The previous gen I owned all three. My xbox and ps3 barely got used. This gen I bought the PS4 and have used it for maybe 10 to 15 hours total.
I'm going to sell the PS4 and wait and see what happens. Looks like I'll be PC only for the first time in a long time.
I'm going to sell the PS4 and wait and see what happens. Looks like I'll be PC only for the first time in a long time.
jeff_rigby
Banned
True provided no one else advertises and customer educates. I expect Vidipath when it starts, to be advertised heavily by all supporting it as a distinguishing must-have feature. Many of the platforms already on the market can support it with a firmware update.
The Vidipath standard will be used with Antenna TV also including 4K (ATSC 3) which reaches finalization at the end of this year. The transport (tuner and modulation) parts were done early this year to allow early release of ATSC 1 & 3 DLNA 3-6 Network tuners (Vidpath for Antenna TV when combined with a STB like the PS4 and XB1 or other UHD STBs) ALL current UHD TVs need the same DLNA network tuner box.
ooVoo, Skype and ALL video chat programs that follow the WebRTC standards can connect to each or Landlines. This will be advertised also.
The FCC will likely require Cell Phones to support ATSC 3 also for the following:
Cell Smart phones and ATSC 3 use the same modulation scheme and software stack and the FCC is selling TV spectrum to Cell phone companies so they use nearly the same frequencies. Really easy to do provided they support HEVC.
It's all lining up to start in 2017 ready for 2018. 2017 was when Comcast stated they wanted to start moving to all IPTV and when they plan to have DOCSIS 3.1 support.
I add proof in the way that I, again, put in other random buzzwords, make random assumptions and infer conclusions on this assumptions.You want me to prove that Xtensa accelerators can support HEVC or that they are being used as Software accelerators for HEVC or do you just want to nit-pick. I was responding to a post saying the Xtensa accelerators didn't have enough power to support HEVC codecs and that vastly overstated what is requires for HEVC.
10/21/2014 I created the thread; Hardware for Media Hub features in both the XB1 and PS4 "kinda confirmed" which is unconfirmed speculation and 6/2015 after the XB1 announced HEVC support I created the Thread The PS4 will support UHD Blu-ray which is not worded as speculation. I had enough proof that I did not think it was speculation.
The money is in ATSC 3 not UHD Blu-ray and both Microsoft and Sony have been planning to support ATSC 3 for years before the Launch of the XB1 and PS4.
Every mention of DP/HDMI is for a HDMI 2 port which takes features from DP and is in the Yukon slide (2010 leaked Microsoft powerpoint) and these slides from Microsoft:
2013 bottom right DP/HDMI
2010 bottom right Display Port Notice also ATSC which is about the Antenna TV standard = ATSC 3 if they mention Display port.
Sorry Jeff, you connect too many things where nobody knows what is speculation, what is assumption and what some things mean but that doesn't stop you to connect things together.
A quote from my favorite lecturer for theoretical computer science said once: If I start with a wrong assumption, I can prove anything.
Negotiator
Banned
Confirmation bias at its finest.
If you only used your PS4 10 to 15 hours you was already PC only even before these rumors.
CosmicQueso
Member
That new firmware run on the market.
Jesus Crist. It's just rumour come on :/ How do you know an iterative Xbox it's not incoming for first? All considered, xbone sales aren't exactly good and MS has more reasons to release it.
jeff_rigby
Banned
I guess terms like multi-view Codec goes over your head and you just pick and choose what you understand missing the big points.
A puzzle is composed of many pieces and when it's only partially competed one can see the big picture. This is where I'm at while you are still looking at the individual pieces arguing where they fit. Take a step back and HINT both Microsoft and Sony are going to support ATSC 3...why is a question you should be asking but don't. Why are both Sony and Microsoft involved with TV networks and Cell Phones?
ATSC 3 features:
Can support mobile TV
4 times as many channels as are currently supported locally (my area is 34) = about 120 channels
The FCC will mandate cell phones support ATSC 3 which opens up a new larger market for TV
Smaller antenna
More coverage
more features including XTV, NRT, 1080P S3D, 4K, DRM
Support for Vidipath
Cable channels will migrate to Antenna TV
consumers recognize they get a better picture FREE on antenna TV and cable cut
Cable TV migrates to all IPTV to support the cable cutters (No cable boxes). Sony Playstation Vue supplies the channels that they can't get locally on Antenna TV
We have a hybrid delivery of Antenna TV and Internet to STBs and Smart TVs.
While the Over The Air networks are upgrading & shutting people off & the Cable/Satellite companies can't roll out 4K boxes fast enough this will be the time for Sony , MS , Amazon & Apple to get their 4K boxes in homes & become the media providers.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
This needs to be on a official NeoGaf shirt. I would pay crazy money...crazy money.
CosmicQueso
Member
Some people are never going to be able to live down the concrete positions they've taken on this. It's cool to have theories, but to be so zealous about them without definitive information is a bit rash.
inpHilltr8r
Member
It's a Schooner!
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
Well if NX is more powerful than PS4 your guess is a good as anyones elses.
Marty Chinn
Member
You're over playing the UHD angle. A lot of people are going to get their 4K content from streaming. There is a handful of content streaming already on Netflix at 4K. UHD is going to be a very niche market and likely even smaller than Blu Ray. UHD also just launched so the price is going to be high on the discs, and the selection is going to be sparse. It's way too early to say this is going to be the big year for 4K simply because UHD is out. A lot of that content is also upscaled rather than native. I don't think there's going to be a huge surge in 4K purchases suddenly. All you're really going to see is people who are buying a new TV will buy a 4K one, not because it's 4K, but because 4K is simply replacing 1080p sets as the option. The content itself will still be sparse this year.
I know people who are getting new TVs because of 4K.
4K seem to be a easier sell than 1080P was.
That's great to read! Definitely the best way to go about it, IMO.
Certainly it would help to reach a more mass adoption quicker, but that's not the only consideration to be taken.
I don't think it was ever publicly stated, but the conventional wisdom was Sony intentionally lagged the PS3's uptake of certain BD media features versus dedicated players. At least until there was better price parity with CEs.
The way the BD licensing is structured, there's a weighted payout for certain members of the BDA via licensing. It's based on their patent portfolio in the specification. So basically when a licensed product is sold, they get a payout. The other obvious way companies make money is by disc sales for the studio / IP owner, and margins on the sale of actual BD players for CEs.
That last part is where the olive branch was thought to come in. IIRC Sony and Matsushita (Panasonic) get the highest percentage of licensing royalties due to their patent portfolio. Both of them also make margins on players (and in the case of Sony, disc sales too). In other words they have the highest revenue expectations right from the start. In order to get everyone on board to support the platform (remember it was competing against HD-DVD), Sony, etc. is assumed to have made some deals to not cut the other manufacturers out right off the bat. Basically it's thought they intentionally gave breathing room for CEs making dedicated players so they could gobble up a decent chunk of the early adopter market. Had they gone full ahead with PS3 BD compatibility at their earliest ability, there would have basically been no high-margin early market at all.
Does that move slow progress to mass market adoption? Probably a bit. But without getting everyone on board there was the very real potential BD would never take off at all. It was simply too much of a risk.
So the question becomes is the Ultra HD BD rollout seeing a similar move? I would not be surprised. Granted their isn't a competing format that needs to be worried about, but it is also expected to be a smaller market overall versus BD (more niche). A platform like this is healthier the more manufacturers you have on board. So if the pie is expected to be smaller, even without format competition, they are still going to run into the need to keep manufacturers happy. Jumping out with a device that makes it impossible for those companies to make any money is obviously going to go over well.
Marty Chinn
Member
Are they going to pay the $30 a pop for a UHD disc? What is their interest in 4K? What do they want to play on it? Did they buy Blu Rays? I'm not saying nobody is buying 4K for the sake of 4K, but I don't think there's going to be a huge surge for the sole sake of 4K. If people really cared about the visual fidelity, DVDs would have dropped dramatically in sales and Blu Ray would have taken off. This stuff interests me a lot, but I also understand that I'm in the minority. Even I'm not jumping just yet on to 4K because of several factors like the standards not being applied on the sets just yet, the lack of content and so forth. A lot of stuff is still early for 4K, so I don't see how 2016 is the big year for it. I think it's the first year we're finally going to see proper TVs at least, but not some huge surge in sales especially when TV sales are in decline.
The thing is when people was buying HD TVs the SD content looked bad on it but now with 4K the HD content look even better on the TV plus we have Netflix ,Amazon & so with 4K content for the people with the 4K TVs to check out. in the transition to HD you had to go out & buy a HD player to see any HD content on your HD TV. now the TV's are Smart TVs & they can view HD & 4K content right out of the box.
You get 4K content without any effort, one of my nieces was at my house watching Netflix & started watching Fuller House & it was in 4K just that simple. No one was looking for 4K content it was just there.
Marty Chinn
Member
You're jumping into this without context.
bitbydeath was insisting that this was the year of 4K, not next year or the year after and that the PS4K has to be out this year because it's the break out year for 4K. He then further justified it with UHD players being released around the world.
I'm saying it doesn't have to be this year. This year is going to still be in the early stages and it's going to trickle in as 4K becomes the only option you have for buying a TV. UHD is not going to be the critical point where suddenly 4K takes off. What you just said as an example has nothing to do with UHD being released or it helping drive 4K. Even with your example, it has the flaw in the fact that bandwidth is a huge limiting factor for streaming 4K for a lot of people. 4K requires a lot of bandwidth and the the average household is well below that. So even with a 4K set, they may not even be able to stream it. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they got a 2K stream and assumed it was 4K and was still wowed by it simply because they assumed it was 4K. I'm not even convinced 4K streaming beats out a 2K blu ray on the simple matter of bitrate alone. So they may be better off with a well mastered blu ray rather than a 4K stream. That is if it they truly do care about visual quality.
2016 is not going to be some revolutionary year in growth for 4K. It's going to be gradual growth and there's no reason that the PS4K absolutely must be released this year.
Risible
Member
Yes, of course. I meant as in I'll only own a PC and no current gen Sony or MS console for the first time.
Risible
Member
Did you even read my post? I explained pretty clearly why I was taking the action I was. And what does an iterative xbox coming have to do with any of what I said?
It's like people own stock in Sony or MS with the way they react to these things.
potatohead
Member
Yep. The timing is perfect for these attempts.
Bits N Pieces
Member
Don't agree with him, that's a load of nonsense lol
If you buy a PS4 then you are a PS4 owner, how you consume your media is entirely up to you. To try and dismiss someone because of the number of hours they put into a hobby is laughable.
Yeah now I have read better. It is even less clear what it has to do with the thread matter :/
2016 is the year that they are making a bigger push for 4K but yeah it don't have to happen this year. but PS4K would help the push a lot because most people will not go out & buy a 4K Blu-ray player but they will get the PS4K that will play the 4K Blu-rays.
OK I see what you're saying but I'm not sure how the rumors changed anything if you wasn't really playing it anyway.
Yeah TV's are even starting to come without OTA Tuners (Guess you can't even call them TV's ) it's a free for all battlefield right now & PlayStation & Vue is looking like it's in a good position.
A lot of the STB & even the SmartTVs will want to have PlayStation Vue as part of their apps going forward.
Huh? I'm not dismissing him as a PS4 owner, I just don't think the rumors changed much about how he/she game.
Marty Chinn
Member
But that kind of goes without saying. Every year as 4K TVs become more of the standard as they phase out 2K TVs, of course there's going to be a bigger push. It's obvious. More presence, more push. I guarantee you 2017 will have an even bigger push. So it's kind of meaningless to say this year they're making a bigger push.
I also get that the PS4K makes it easier for someone to gain access to a UHD player because the value proposition is great, but the PS3 did the same thing with BR, and a lot of people didn't really get into the habit of buying BRs. They may have bought a couple early on but then just stopped buying it. Most certainly the PS4K can help adoption, but I still think adoption is going to be pretty sparse and UHD is going to fall into a niche format. I would love UHD to take off and be huge, but I know it's not going to be. UHD is not going to be something that pushes 4K adoption rates. I don't think really there is anything that is. It's just going to be a gradual replacement rather than a huge spike.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
Its pretty simple. According to GopherD, There is a lot of misinformation being put out to confuse the competition, who have a lot tighter links with retail than Sony, even now. They havent quite got a slim PS4 that outputs in 4K right yet either.
Otoh you make it sound like the PS4K, something that hasn't even been made official, is "the straw that broke the camel's back", when it's pretty clear that you do not have any interest in having a console tbh.
You are not going to get a lot of content from 4K streaming at all. There are only few services offering 4K content and are very expensive, like Sony's Ultra movie service.
Since Netflix takes a while to get latest movies, I dont see them having a lot of 4K movies for quite a while.
So UHD discs will likely be the best way for owners to experience new content.
Right now, BD discs for big releases (not family/comedies) are around 50%-55% marketshare.
As to the 4K TVs, they have been mainstream for a while now.
Marty Chinn
Member
Well then 4K isn't really going to be a big deal at all then. People aren't going to be dropping $30 on UHDs and those prices aren't going to come down for at least a year. Even then by coming down, they'll be at BR prices at about $20 for new releases and probably even longer before we start getting the $10 discs. Even then, UHD is going to be a smaller niche format next to BR which is a smaller format next to DVD. People want to stream and care more about convenience over quality. People also tend to be cheap when it comes to TV and movie media too, so there's just no way UHD is going to be a huge factor.
Is that in physical form or all formats? Also, what it is when you don't exclude everything else?
Adam Tyner
Member
As far as DVD vs. Blu-ray goes, BD tends to do extremely well with sci-fi/action/blockbuster-style movies. Even something like Game of Thrones had a 60% Blu-ray / 40% DVD split in its first week. Mockingjay Pt. 2 was 55% Blu-ray / 45% DVD in week one. Spectre debuted with 63% BD / 37% DVD.
For something like the latest Alvin and the Chipmunks movie, it debuted with 35% Blu-ray / 65% DVD. You'd think The Peanuts Movie would compare favorably, but it was 59% Blu-ray (counting 3D as well) / 41% DVD. (The UHD BD release scored only 0.3% of sales.) Open Season: Scared Silly premiered at 14% Blu-ray / 86% DVD. The Good Dinosaur was 54% Blu-ray (counting 3D) vs. 46% DVD.
Daddy's Home was 40% Blu-ray / 60% DVD. As far as the Oscar crowd goes, The Big Short was at 56% Blu-ray / 44% DVD, while Carol was 36% Blu-ray / 64% DVD, Brooklyn in its first week had a 31% Blu-ray / 69% DVD split, Creed was 44% Blu-ray / 56% DVD, Room was 38% Blu-ray / 62% DVD, and The Danish Girl was 35% BD / 65% DVD .
family_guy
Member
NX won't play movies.
Marty Chinn
Member
Thanks for the stats. To me, I think these stats just further prove that UHD is going to have a tough sell for adoption rate anytime soon and likely ever. It certainly won't be the thing that drives 4K TVs.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
Hence why Sony also want to offer Playstation into the mix to drive up sales further.
You are not going to get a lot of content from 4K streaming at all. There are only few services offering 4K content and are very expensive, like Sony's Ultra movie service.
Since Netflix takes a while to get latest movies, I dont see them having a lot of 4K movies for quite a while.
So UHD discs will likely be the best way for owners to experience new content.
Right now, BD discs for big releases (not family/comedies) are around 50%-55% marketshare.
As to the 4K TVs, they have been mainstream for a while now.
That suggests 4K shipments might overtake 1080p in early 2017 - so a year off. And the installed base of 4K will still be tiny vs 1080p or even lower res 'HD ready' sets
Also, 4K devices are present everywhere in the shops, they get most of the promotion online, too. No wonder people are buying them when they go for a new TV. That doesn't neccessarily mean they are trying to upgrade all of their media to 4K. Heck I bet many people are mostly or even exclusivly watching SD TV and DVDs on those.
You would have to go out of your way to only watch SD TV & DVDs on the new 4K TVs because over the air is HD , most Cable /Satellite is HD , most of the TV's are smart TV's that have Netflix & other streaming apps + DLNA for streaming movies & shows from your PC/Media Server/phone/tablets, FireTV sticks are cheap & if there is younger people in the house there is most likely a HD console in the house. sure there will be people who hook up DVD & VCR players or hook up their equipment with the wrong cables or never upgraded their cable/satellite equipment but I don't think it will be too many of them moving to 4K without having any HD content.
DVDs are still wide spread in the stores. And over the air TV still is SD in most of Europe, move to HD planned for later this year. We have that, because TV is not really important for our family, my son and I don't watch any, my wife rarely and my daughter just an hour of kids TV on most evenings, less or none at others. So we don't want to pay for any quality option there.
And I do know some who are indeed watching cable TV in SD quality, because HD quality simply costs a few bucks more and they don't care much. If they cared they could afford it. None of them have CRT TVs anymore.
Of course I like my content in 1080p if possible - games, Netflix, Amazon Instant Video, Blu-rays. I just don't care about live TV at all, not even time shifted. But if there is some low-res content like e.g. Walking Dead webisodes or games for an older console, I don't skip it because of low quality. The content is more important.
And I do know some who are indeed watching cable TV in SD quality, because HD quality simply costs a few bucks more and they don't care much. If they cared they could afford it. None of them have CRT TVs anymore.
Of course I like my content in 1080p if possible - games, Netflix, Amazon Instant Video, Blu-rays. I just don't care about live TV at all, not even time shifted. But if there is some low-res content like e.g. Walking Dead webisodes or games for an older console, I don't skip it because of low quality. The content is more important.
Does any of the people you know who are only watching SD content have 4K TVs?
You still have Games , Netflix & so on in HD.
I agree up until the point that all the major US ISP's roll out data caps of 300gb, it will be hard to manage that on 1080p streams, 4K streams will just be cap killers.
ISP's will be the bottleneck in all advancements if left unchecked. Try going to a 'steam' model for all games (no physical), watching tv in HD , youtube, and surfing without getting charged for overages in a few years.
I think the first time US customers hit their data cap on their home internet connection watching 4K one of two things happen - they sour on it, or they start looking more seriously again at physical media for getting 4K content. Internet data caps are a big deal in the US for the delivery of 4K content via streaming, imo.
Marty Chinn
Member
That is absolutely the wrong conclusion from all of that. It doesn't matter how many potential UHD players Sony puts out there. A large amount of people don't care about Blu Ray already; even more won't care about 4K and UHD. UHD is going to have a smaller user base during its lifetime. So hence Sony doesn't need to put out PS4K this year and this year marks no major breakout year for 4K.
To my knowledge, no.
Recently we had a couple as guests that were considering buying a 4K TV because they needed a new one. I showed them a few games, Blu-ray movies and Netflix on my 55" 1080p (which was about the upper size limit they were aiming for). Prior to that, they expected to see pixels and blocky details at that screen size if they didn't take a 4K. They inspected it thoroughly even at as close a distance as 1,5 meters and found none. When they went off later they were planning to buy a 1080p.
