StrongBlackVine
Banned
Core gamer was never going to pick NX over PS4 unless NX was all of sudden going get all the mulitplats that every one buys yearly or bi-annually. I see no signs of that happening.
PS4K information (~2x GPU power w/ clock+, new CPU, price, tent. Q1 2017)
- Thread starter OsirisBlack
- Start date
Core gamer was never going to pick NX over PS4 unless NX was all of sudden going get all the mulitplats that every one buys yearly or bi-annually. I see no signs of that happening.
DragonKnight
Member
Im a core gamer who will be getting both. And do you really think its core gamers who got sony to the 100 mil, 150 mil, and 40 mil mark? Hell id say core gamers probably account for less than half of all final console numbers when all is said and done. All that is to say that the vast majority of people dont give a fuck about power. It is all about how you market your shit and of course the games.
Youre very doom and gloom about nintendo lol. The NX doesnt need to be the biggest kid in the block. It needs to be scalable with sony and micros boxes and easy to develop for. If anything, most devs are complaining about the ps4k due to its added strain on development.
Why would i pass up on awesome games becauae the system isnt all powerful? Make zero sense.
NX and Xbox Two are both fucked up without the chance to release a new console before their competitor.
GhostTrick
Banned
I'll tell you something: NX could release with 2X less than PS4 in GPU, this would be the least of their problem. It could be a 8Tflops GPU, 3rd parties won't come.
PdotMichael
Banned
Modern software titles need a large userbase to reduce the risk of a financial disaster.
At this point companies will try to do everything to avoid a large reset on their customer base.
Last gen we had an overlong console generation with completly outdated hardware, this time customers have the option to upgrade their console if they want better graphics and Sony can sell a 4K player to provide content for the incoming 4k tvs.
At this point companies will try to do everything to avoid a large reset on their customer base.
Last gen we had an overlong console generation with completly outdated hardware, this time customers have the option to upgrade their console if they want better graphics and Sony can sell a 4K player to provide content for the incoming 4k tvs.
Well I think they might have looked at it if it was going to come out 3 years later than PS4. That way Nintendo could hit a more powerful machine for a good price. However as much as I doubted PS4 level machine in the NX, I doubt even more that it'll hit PS4K level.
I wasn't talking about the 150 mill of the PS2. I was referencing the 40 or so mill of the PS4. I do think it's mainly core gamers that got them there. The casual market has moved to phones, just look at the Wii U. It was dead out of the gate, however the PS4 flew off the shelves. Also, not everyone can get more than one machine and Nintendo were to even attempt to get the "core" gamer back they needed to do it with a machine more powerful than the competition. That's now almost impossible.
nelsonroyale
Member
I don't this will affect NX. In fact, just thinking about Nintendo games with PS4 level visuals...is exciting. The difference between PS4k and PS4 and NX and Wii U is likely vastly different...
DragonKnight
Member
Dont agree with your power argument. Power isnt what lost nintendo the core gamer and power isnt why sony has a command lead this gen.
I do expect an extension of the gen, 2020 or 2021 at most, but why would you think PS4 and 4K games would not be compatible with PS5? I would say it makes it even more likely, all of this is off the shelf hardware and much easier to allow than PS3 to PS4, that's how 360 did it, their 360 architecture was nowhere near as complicated as the cell nonsense PS3 had.
ninjablade
Banned
I agree , but unless there console has something revolutionary like the wii, it's gonna bomb as hard as wiiu.
jeff_rigby
Banned
You should be concerned that I agree with you as you are making the same speculation as fact that I do. A PS5 won't come until there is a break in how games are created. I think the next major change is Ray tracing which is more efficient for higher resolutions so as has been previously noted 10TF is necessary for games totally rendered with Ray tracing and that is about 2021 for a game console TDP.
I meant the other way around; that the PS4 Neo wont be able to play PS5 games.
Even you can hit the nail on the head Jeff, even if you go too crazy with your speculations
Oh, well yeah lol. That's obvious. Devs are going to want to jump to a new minimum eventually, and PS4K would hold them back by the time Sony wants to launch PS5.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Hit the nail on the head with this.
There is no point to come out with a 'new generation', when games are not doing anything different development wise, and tech is seeing minimal uptick right now as they are hitting the current fab wall.
They need to give the Polaris/Zen/HBM2 time to mature. Once that happens in a mass consumer console like pricing ($399) with the TFlops needed (10+), we will then see it. More than likely 2019/20.
It depends. The big difference about what went before was the radical change in architecture between consoles. It's obvious this gen that both consoles are aiming for a consistent hardware platform not just for now but also forward facing. If, at the end of this all, all we're getting is new hardware revisions and no real architectural or OS overhauls, then there is a potential to keep compatibility stretching forward/back as far as the publishers wish to support for.
This would mean that one of the big things about Steam that I love - how my collection isn't bound by generations - will become a massive plus for consoles.
lwilliams3
Member
1) The Base PS4 will still be main focus. There will be PS4K enchanted games, but it wouldnt be wise to gimp the base version. If the NX is in range with the base PS4, power by itself isn't the issue. But..
2) As others have stated, power is one of the least of the NX challenges.
potatohead
Member
What's required for raytracing to be high performance in consoles?
Is it memory bandwidth or GPU core efficiency and performance?
If PS5 goes raytracing at ~4K what does that mean for backwards compatibility?
Is it memory bandwidth or GPU core efficiency and performance?
If PS5 goes raytracing at ~4K what does that mean for backwards compatibility?
lightchris
Member
Why would that be the case? The number of rays you have to cast is linear with the number of pixels (one ray per pixel for the most basic case). Same as with rasterization which also scales linearly. It does get more efficient vs. rasterization the more polygons you draw though, but it still seems like we are far away from the point where it will be more efficient overall.
It's possible though that there will be some ray-tracing functionality integrated in future GPUs for specific use cases, but I don't think it will replace rasteriztation altogether in the forseeable future.
While this is true, in the interim, Sony's business need to have new hardware to market to their customers will continue. So, regardless of the readiness of substantively new technology, there will be a new console designed and offered that will have more hardware capability than the PS4 or the PS4.5. They may not call it the "PS5", per se, but that is, effectively, what it will be.
amstradcpc
Member
If OsirisBlack was refering to a meeting on 29-3-2016 I don´t think the leaked documents GiantBomb/Eurogamer are discussing are of a later date, as he is also mentioning devs had already dev kits in their hands, whose documentation could perfectly be the one leaked. So, as i already have stated in previous posts, the CPU could still not be the final one. Maybe all will depend on the timing of Zen to the market (besides pricing of course).
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
True point as well. They need to drive the 4K interest now, while the adoption rate is catching fire.
Interesting.
rokkerkory
Member
new cpu wouldn't add $100 me thinks but also $500 price point is DOA
Don't know about this. New ps4 owners get a hot console and current ps4 owners can trade their system into Best Buy or GameStop for let's say $200 (maybe $150 at minimum?), which drops the price of the new ps4 considerably.
$399 does seem like the magic number though.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Reports from briefed retailers were saying they were juggling $399 or $499 with a new upgraded CPU.
the question is how fixed this is by now. Guess we'll see@E3 but I'm not betting on a NEW CPU as it would make porting harder.
I wonder if you we could get more overclock on those Jaguards with a new smaller process. Something like 2,6Ghz even. We don't know the total TDP budget yet.
GamerMax73
Member
In the same way PS4 will be holding back Neo? What about "cross-gen" titles? PS3 games held back early PS4? Would targeting Neo for early cross-gen titles be better for PS5 than targeting PS4, no cross-gen for Base PS4? Since Neo hardware should be closer in performance to PS5 than PS4 will be? When do we expect PS5? 3-years? 2019? What about 3-years after that? 2022, will Sony do a PS5.5? what might that mean? What would be the new min spec? What will be holding what back?
I still think, if they go down this route then we just need time for the system to bed in properly and it will be better for all. Seriously the only problem now is it's the first time it's happening, as subsequent iterations come in the early problems associated with the model should dissipate naturally.
It's not just a TDP issue, but also one of yields. Raising the requirements for a chip production will reduce the number that are "usable".
You're just a demigod! Kratos has ripped Gods in half and answers to Cerny's call.
I agree on the SATA
GamerMax73
Member
Why? All games are Neo compatible, all games are PS4 compatible. If the Giant Bomb docs are anything to go by all games post October 2016 will just magically look better if played on the Neo. That's it. No need for a sticker. Just buy the game and put the disc in the console. If you have a Neo and the game has a Neo mode - great, if not - so what, game still plays fine.
MisterXDTV
Member
So they would be selling a more expensive console only 3 years after the launch of PS4?
That would be crazy marketing....
amstradcpc
Member
Jaguar is dead.Shrinking it to 14nm if made will be fully paid by Sony as is not anymore in AMD roadmaps. Tell thank you if a brute fast shrinking job allows to reach 2,1 GHz without shooting the TDP.
The compatibility problem will have to be faced now or with PS5.Iterative improvements should take iterative increments of all the components or the model used as a base will hamper all the versions.
Imagine PS5 with a 8 cores zen cpu but ps4k as developing base with its Jaguar cores...
Does sound crazy when you put it like this. The only reasons I could see it happening is if Sony thinks consumers will pay it since ps4 is on top or if they are targeting higher end consumers who also have money for a 4K tv.
GamerMax73
Member
It has always been a complete custom made part that has never had anything to do with AMD's roadmaps or PC parts. The chip is built to Sony's specifications not AMD's.
amstradcpc
Member
Is the same chip as Kabini but with two modules instead of 1. Nothing custom except for the GDDR5 memory controller.
Chittagong
Gold Member
It's clever marketing. The base PS4 cost will continue dropping, and to keep their turnover even flat they need to sell higher and higher volumes the longer the generation goes on. This is partially covered by demand growing with the price dropping, but a lowering ASP is still a concern. Releasing an "S" version of your product is a clever way to bump up the ASP until you are ready for the next leap.
You have any references for "ray tracing being more efficient for higher resolutions"? Common sense would indicate the opposite for generally agreed upon definitions of "efficient"... the more pixels, the more rays traced, the more work, the more inefficient.
Well, there's some sort of communication fabric between the two modules (also to handle memory bus contention), so it's still more than just duct tape.
potatohead
Member
That doesn't make it more inefficient, only more demanding of performance.
Efficiency is not the same as output.
Still, even if you discount my comment about it being less efficient, it doesn't explain how a higher resolution makes it more efficient...
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
Maybe they could put Neo out the Matrix's face on a round sticker and have that in the top right of the case with 'Enhanced on PS4 Neo' in a circular boarder around his mug.
That would be cool as chips and edgy as F.
GamerMax73
Member
Plus a GPU module not found on other AMD APU's and changes to said GPU model to make greater use of GPGPU programming than regular AMD equivalents - no it's not a Sony custom part at all, my bad
amstradcpc
Member
We were talking just about the cpu.Plus a GPU module not found on other AMD APU's and changes to said GPU model to make greater use of GPGPU programming than regular AMD equivalents - no it's not a Sony custom part at all, my bad
amstradcpc
Member
Yes,right, and by the way is so painfully slow that devs avoid communicating modules like a plague.
Exactly. It's the potential for side upgrades I think I am most excited about. Whether in a PS4K or a "slim" PS4. SATA3, USB in back, external drives, 1080p recording, quieter and so forth. Improved gaming is icing on a cake.
potatohead
Member
It doesn't do either. Just more demanding.
The difference about increasing resolutions is only about scalability between rasterization and raytracing, not within either of them. Which one scales in performance needs more than the other per resolution.
The efficiency of raytracing probably doesn't change, only that it may scale much better than rasterization when we're talking significantly more powerful GPUs and much increased resolutions (and particularly on-screen content).