PS4K information (~2x GPU power w/ clock+, new CPU, price, tent. Q1 2017)

10TF for raytracing? In what universe

every current raytracing demo that you can run on a modern gpu still needs like 20++ frames to resolve a single frame into full resolution

the real time part of it is some crazy low precision approximation with few rays that looks noisy as fuck and is completely unusable

Seems to me like you still need at least an order of magnitude more performance to be able to do it in real time at full quality.
Maybe for ps6, maybe
 
Please Sony put in a better cpu at $499! I want a justifiable upgrade.
I think that the 499$ price also adds to the perception of how powerful the new console is and helps to differentiate it from the regular PS4.

Nobody could get pissed that something more expensive then what you paid that was released years later performs much better than what you bought.

399$ only makes sense if the original PS4 gets a major price cut.
 
Philippe Cardon, a SIEE Vice President, said this in an interview published today: http://www.challenges.fr/high-tech/...oi-2016-est-une-annee-cruciale-pour-sony.html

Google translated:

PlayStation VR he needs a new, more powerful console? There is much talk of PS4.5, PS4 Neo ... What exactly?

Cardon: "PS4 has been developed to be compatible with the VR. But in the life of a console, research and development teams are still working on improvements. The current PS4 goes back many years. It is normal to think of updating. However, I have no more information than that to provide."
 
What are your thoughts on why Sony is doing this refresh? Let's say it's not out of competitive pressure from Microsoft or Nintendo and that Sony had this planned all along. The total number of games sold in the PS ecosystem is unlikely to increase dramatically with the introduction of the Neo. Some PS4 OG users are going to upgrade, and first time buyers will either choose the base model or the Neo model. Either way, the number of games sold will be about the same. If Sony makes more money from game sales than hardware sales, what's the point in doing this? Is it all just for PSVR, even though PSVR games have to work on the base model too?
 
Jaguar is dead.Shrinking it to 14nm if made will be fully paid by Sony as is not anymore in AMD roadmaps.
It's in MS's long-term interest to also have their APU on a smaller node, so there's no reason to assume Sony would be financing this alone.





What's required for raytracing to be high performance in consoles?

Is it memory bandwidth or GPU core efficiency and performance?

If PS5 goes raytracing at ~4K what does that mean for backwards compatibility?
All of the above. It's very unlikely a PS5 would have the needed power anyway.

GPU's went in a very specific direction a long time ago. It was for rendering polygons, offering programmable shaders, etc. While GPU are relatively flexible, they are still most efficient doing that sort of rendering at their core.

In that regard, ray tracing is no different from other alternative rendering methods like Voxels or NURBS. Can you do it? Sure. And some parts of the rendering pipeline can be hammered into existing acceleration, but others need brute force since it's fighting the core design of the GPU.

The reality is even with console TDP requirements we likely could get efficient ray tracing, voxels, or what-have-you. The problem is that would require the GPU to be designed from the ground up to support acceleration for that kind of rendering. So in other words, you'd have to give up the features that we're accustomed to. Worse, this would mean all devs would need to be on board. They'd have to give up all of their experience with rendering graphics in their current form and throw away all of their libraries. For game makers it would be a complete paradigm shift in graphics development. That just doesn't seem tenable.

A hybrid approach could work - were part of the GPU is dedicated to traditional rendering, and part is for something else. Even if you disregard the R&D involved in accelerating a different rendering paradigm, the problem is there are cost limitations directly tied to transistor budget. If you're dedicated some to something like ray tracing, you're taking away would could have been dedicated to traditional polygonal rendering. In other words you are limiting the capabilities for traditional graphics for the relatively small number of devs that would use the alternative. What console manufacturer would take that risk? A competitor would offer a console that crushes it for traditional rendering and eat their lunch.


Unless something major changes, I just don't see ray tracing being a major thing until it can be done well via brute force on a traditional architecture. And that's going to be a while.




One thing I could see though is some dedicated hardware for ray casting. Physics cards eventually got dedicated silicon, and I wonder if the same could happen here? It may be possible to get efficient multi-source lighting with dedicated hardware on a relatively small transistor budget. Just realize ray casting is not the same thing as full pipeline ray tracing for your rendering. It's using a similar concept but specifically for your lighting engine.
 
What are your thoughts on why Sony is doing this refresh? Let's say it's not out of competitive pressure from Microsoft or Nintendo and that Sony had this planned all along. The total number of games sold in the PS ecosystem is unlikely to increase dramatically with the introduction of the Neo. Some PS4 OG users are going to upgrade, and first time buyers will either choose the base model or the Neo model. Either way, the number of games sold will be about the same. If Sony makes more money from game sales than hardware sales, what's the point in doing this? Is it all just for PSVR, even though PSVR games have work on the base model too?

I've mentioned before that this was planned before ps4 launched.

As to the question, it is the same reasons companies have different price tiers in virtually every other segment: receivers, tvs, cars, phones, shoes, shirts, etc etc. One-size-fits-all is a bit of an anomaly in consumer electronics.

My guess is that the main reason is that Sony does not want the playstation brand to be seen as cheap or inferior. And so they planned this upgrade to ensure that they will have the most powerful console no matter what N or MS does. You cannot have a premium brand without a premium product...just a guess tho.
 
IMO Sony should do $499 and put in the zen CPU, and clock the GPU higher. As it stands the Ps4k would be a lower tdp and size than launch PS4.

Delay the release to late 2017.

Have zen CPU at 2.4 ghz.
Have the GPU be clocked to 1.2 ghz. 5.6 teraflops. 4k gaming goodness.
Use GDDR5x and get 16gb of Ram. Or use HBM2.

$499.
 
What are your thoughts on why Sony is doing this refresh? Let's say it's not out of competitive pressure from Microsoft or Nintendo and that Sony had this planned all along. The total number of games sold in the PS ecosystem is unlikely to increase dramatically with the introduction of the Neo. Some PS4 OG users are going to upgrade, and first time buyers will either choose the base model or the Neo model. Either way, the number of games sold will be about the same. If Sony makes more money from game sales than hardware sales, what's the point in doing this? Is it all just for PSVR, even though PSVR games have to work on the base model too?

I think when they started designing for the next PS4 revision they realized that rather than just make it smaller and cheaper like usual, they could do a decent power upgrade at an affordable cost that would allow them to extend this gen until the tech is ready for a generational increase in power.
 
IMO Sony should do $499 and put in the zen CPU, and clock the GPU higher. As it stands the Ps4k would be a lower tdp and size than launch PS4.

Delay the release to late 2017.

Have zen CPU at 2.4 ghz.
Have the GPU be clocked to 1.2 ghz. 5.6 teraflops. 4k gaming goodness.
Use GDDR5x and get 16gb of Ram. Or use HBM2.

$499.


Wow you dream big! :)
 
We were talking just about the cpu.

But that's the point thought isn't it? It's one part, it's not as if the CPU is physically on a separate die to the GPU. AMD and Sony's design and build process for these chips have little to do with the design and build of their PC counterparts beyond being based around common building blocks. AMD's PC roadmap bears little or no relation to Sony's APU roadmap, where they can go and what they choose to do with it. These chips are fabricated specifically for Sony to spec.
 
IMO Sony should do $499 and put in the zen CPU, and clock the GPU higher. As it stands the Ps4k would be a lower tdp and size than launch PS4.

Delay the release to late 2017.

Have zen CPU at 2.4 ghz.
Have the GPU be clocked to 1.2 ghz. 5.6 teraflops. 4k gaming goodness.
Use GDDR5x and get 16gb of Ram. Or use HBM2.

$499.

Why wouldn't they just wait until 2019 to launch a new console then?
 
I think that the 499$ price also adds to the perception of how powerful the new console is and helps to differentiate it from the regular PS4.

Nobody could get pissed that something more expensive then what you paid that was released years later performs much better than what you bought.

399$ only makes sense if the original PS4 gets a major price cut.

I don't think this is the way. The price is the only absolute rate-limiting component for sales. Anything higher than $399 and Sony is automatically raising issues for affordability. The key for them this generation was the good fortune in offering 8 GB RAM, powerful graphics processing, and a good price. It is not a good idea to give up any of those things IMO.

PS4 can be dropped to $299 easily by the time PS4K hits anyway I'm sure, it's already at $349 no?
It's in MS's long-term interest to also have their APU on a smaller node, so there's no reason to assume Sony would be financing this alone.






All of the above. It's very unlikely a PS5 would have the needed power anyway.

GPU's went in a very specific direction a long time ago. It was for rendering polygons, offering programmable shaders, etc. While GPU are relatively flexible, they are still most efficient doing that sort of rendering at their core.

In that regard, ray tracing is no different from other alternative rendering methods like Voxels or NURBS. Can you do it? Sure. And some parts of the rendering pipeline can be hammered into existing acceleration, but others need brute force since it's fighting the core design of the GPU.

The reality is even with console TDP requirements we likely could get efficient ray tracing, voxels, or what-have-you. The problem is that would require the GPU to be designed from the ground up to support acceleration for that kind of rendering. So in other words, you'd have to give up the features that we're accustomed to. Worse, this would mean all devs would need to be on board. They'd have to give up all of their experience with rendering graphics in their current form and throw away all of their libraries. For game makers it would be a complete paradigm shift in graphics development. That just doesn't seem tenable.

A hybrid approach could work - were part of the GPU is dedicated to traditional rendering, and part is for something else. Even if you disregard the R&D involved in accelerating a different rendering paradigm, the problem is there are cost limitations directly tied to transistor budget. If you're dedicated some to something like ray tracing, you're taking away would could have been dedicated to traditional polygonal rendering. In other words you are limiting the capabilities for traditional graphics for the relatively small number of devs that would use the alternative. What console manufacturer would take that risk? A competitor would offer a console that crushes it for traditional rendering and eat their lunch.


Unless something major changes, I just don't see ray tracing being a major thing until it can be done well via brute force on a traditional architecture. And that's going to be a while.




One thing I could see though is some dedicated hardware for ray casting. Physics cards eventually got dedicated silicon, and I wonder if the same could happen here? It may be possible to get efficient multi-source lighting with dedicated hardware on a relatively small transistor budget. Just realize ray casting is not the same thing as full pipeline ray tracing for your rendering. It's using a similar concept but specifically for your lighting engine.

Interesting, thanks for the post.
 
IMO Sony should do $499 and put in the zen CPU, and clock the GPU higher. As it stands the Ps4k would be a lower tdp and size than launch PS4.

Delay the release to late 2017.

Have zen CPU at 2.4 ghz.
Have the GPU be clocked to 1.2 ghz. 5.6 teraflops. 4k gaming goodness.
Use GDDR5x and get 16gb of Ram. Or use HBM2.

$499.

That would not cost 399 in late 2017. Hell, i doubt it would cost 499.

Perhaps some people don't know what a 'stop gap' measure is. This is not supposed to be a huge upgrade. nor a huge investment for them. This is a decently more powerful PS4 that is still confined to the PS4 development standard.

This aint a PS5. Sony is most likely following the Iphone model of a Major Upgrade(PS4) revision(PS4.5) ---> Major Upgrade(PS5)

If this thing is coming out relatively soon, they would already have the specs basically locked down and the thing on the way to production at this point, if developers already know about it, and its supposed to be coded for by september
 
"Stop Gap" is the best way to describe PS4K, agreed.

I think some people are taking this in a way in that PS4K is actually supposed to deliver a completely raised experience over PS4.

It is a stop gap, not a full elevation like a new generation of consoles is.
 
I've mentioned before that this was planned before ps4 launched.

As to the question, it is the same reasons companies have different price tiers in virtually every other segment: receivers, tvs, cars, phones, shoes, shirts, etc etc. One-size-fits-all is a bit of an anomaly in consumer electronics.

My guess is that the main reason is that Sony does not want the playstation brand to be seen as cheap or inferior. And so they planned this upgrade to ensure that they will have the most powerful console no matter what N or MS does. You cannot have a premium brand without a premium product...just a guess tho.

Hard to argue against the illusive brand value, but it seems like consoles are looked down upon only by a minority consisting mostly of high-end PC gamers. Otherwise, I don't really see the PS4 being perceived as cheap. On the other hand, graphics seems to be a significant reason the playstation is being favoured over the Xbox this generation. So, I can see why Sony would want to maintain that.

I think when they started designing for the next PS4 revision they realized that rather than just make it smaller and cheaper like usual, they could do a decent power upgrade at an affordable cost that would allow them to extend this gen until the tech is ready for a generational increase in power.

I agree. A mid-cycle refresh is probably a lot cheaper, so this will help Sony get more out of this generation by prolonging it. But it does seem a bit risky, especially with the current sales being on their side. What if Microsoft decides to not follow suit and releases Xbox 2 in late 2017 or 2018? Sony will be in a tough spot because it'll be too soon for a PS5, and even if they do release a PS5 alongside the competition, it'll be hard to convince all the PS4 Neo users to upgrade again in just a year.
 
499$ would make it very hard for them to sell the new model to the current owners of the Original because even the trade-in option wouldn't be enough to save 50% on the PS4K
 
IMO Sony should do $499 and put in the zen CPU, and clock the GPU higher. As it stands the Ps4k would be a lower tdp and size than launch PS4.

Delay the release to late 2017.

Have zen CPU at 2.4 ghz.
Have the GPU be clocked to 1.2 ghz. 5.6 teraflops. 4k gaming goodness.
Use GDDR5x and get 16gb of Ram. Or use HBM2.

$499.

At these specs? No way it will be $499.
 
IMO Sony should do $499 and put in the zen CPU, and clock the GPU higher. As it stands the Ps4k would be a lower tdp and size than launch PS4.

Delay the release to late 2017.

Have zen CPU at 2.4 ghz.
Have the GPU be clocked to 1.2 ghz. 5.6 teraflops. 4k gaming goodness.
Use GDDR5x and get 16gb of Ram. Or use HBM2.

$499.

Might as well wait another year and do PS5 proper if you want Sony to go that far.
 
"Stop Gap" is the best way to describe PS4K, agreed.

I think some people are taking this in a way in that PS4K is actually supposed to deliver a completely raised experience over PS4.

It is a stop gap, not a full elevation like a new generation of consoles is.

smaller updates is all we will get ever again, unless you move to new platform completely...

PS5 will be another smaller update compared to Neo if they ever call it PS5. They might rename it Playstation and thats it.
 
That is a possibility. We'll just have to wait and see at this point.

I don't think they will go that route, but it is possible. I'm expecting a big buff to performance and no forward-compatibility when PS5 hits. Well maybe not expecting, but hoping.

We could have both, stop-gaps and new generations.... hopefully.
 
smaller updates is all we will get ever again, unless you move to new platform completely...

PS5 will be another smaller update compared to Neo if they ever call it PS5. They might rename it Playstation and thats it.

Hope not.

Isn't it kinda ironic, I thought we were hitting some physical barriers with transistor size sprinkled with some diminished returns, but now of all times we're getting mid gen upgrades?
 
That would not cost 399 in late 2017. Hell, i doubt it would cost 499.

Perhaps some people don't know what a 'stop gap' measure is. This is not supposed to be a huge upgrade. nor a huge investment for them. This is a decently more powerful PS4 that is still confined to the PS4 development standard.

This aint a PS5. Sony is most likely following the Iphone model of a Major Upgrade(PS4) revision(PS4.5) ---> Major Upgrade(PS5)

If this thing is coming out relatively soon, they would already have the specs basically locked down and the thing on the way to production at this point, if developers already know about it, and its supposed to be coded for by september
"Stop gap" wouldn't be the most desired way to refer to this as x3. The 32X was a stopgap; hopefully the PS4K/Neo isn't a disaster like that add-on was.

"Stop Gap" is the best way to describe PS4K, agreed.

I think some people are taking this in a way in that PS4K is actually supposed to deliver a completely raised experience over PS4.

It is a stop gap, not a full elevation like a new generation of consoles is.
But stopgaps haven't traditionally done well, either. That's why the term came into use; it has a negative connotation.
 
I don't think this is the way. The price is the only absolute rate-limiting component for sales. Anything higher than $399 and Sony is automatically raising issues for affordability. The key for them this generation was the good fortune in offering 8 GB RAM, powerful graphics processing, and a good price. It is not a good idea to give up any of those things IMO.

PS4 can be dropped to $299 easily by the time PS4K hits anyway I'm sure, it's already at $349 no?
Who would get the regular PS4 at 299$ with the P4K at 399$? The PS4k at 399$ makes a 299$ PS4 look like a bad deal. PS4 249~299$ and a 499$ PS4k is the perfect initial price and it extends a generation that they are already dominating for a little longer.
 
Who would get the regular PS4 at 299$ with the P4K at 399$? The PS4k at 399$ makes a 299$ PS4 look like a bad deal. PS4 249~299$ and a 499$ PS4k is the perfect initial price and it extends a generation that they are already dominating for a little longer.

The people who won't spend $399 but still want a console. Xbox 360 did extremely, extremely well always undercutting Sony's PS3 during almost every year of the 7th generation that really mattered for sales. Cost matters.

$100 may not sound like much when we're doing speculation for years into the future, but to the immediate in-store purchaser it's a big difference. And it's that kind of purchase that shows up on Sony's balance sheet at the end of the year.

But stopgaps haven't traditionally done well, either. That's why the term came into use; it has a negative connotation.

Traditionally the most powerful console has never won a console race.

What's new is not necessarily better, but change is coming. Some will like that change, and some won't.

The demand for technology and the digital ecosystem is too great and this is what they are betting on will trump tradition.
 
Who would get the regular PS4 at 299$ with the P4K at 399$? The PS4k at 399$ makes a 299$ PS4 look like a bad deal. PS4 249~299$ and a 499$ PS4k is the perfect initial price and it extends a generation that they are already dominating for a little longer.

A cheaper PS4 will always be a great option to many.
 
I like the PR aspect of the $499 being higher than the OG PS4 on launch which would hopefully make people less angry. But Sony will have good data on how much that is worth vs the potential for new sales at $399 and some certain percentage of the base being angry. Weight the costs and come up with the price. I'm sure they've been throwing around some options for a while now.
 
I feel this gif sums up the whole Neo saga so far.

WkicsSA.gif


Expecting Sony will go about announcing/revealing it in a way that makes a lot of people come around to this quickly.
 
smaller updates is all we will get ever again, unless you move to new platform completely...

PS5 will be another smaller update compared to Neo if they ever call it PS5. They might rename it Playstation and thats it.

Sounds like a lot of speculation and doom mongering without much proof. Not saying its not possible, but negative nancies have tended to look at the absolute worst case scenario first with this kind of thing

"Stop gap" wouldn't be the most desired way to refer to this as x3. The 32X was a stopgap; hopefully the PS4K/Neo isn't a disaster like that add-on was..

The 32x was not a stop gap. The correct term was "piece of shit".

Seriously, this is a half measure,its just easier, cheaper and faster for them to go off of the exact same components in the PS4 just upclocked a little bit with a few more CU's. And the 14nm process enabled a majority of the thinking they could do it right now and test it out on the market. People are being too hysterical about the end times.

When PS5 comes along, i'm willing to bet we're getting significant HBM upgrades, RAM size upgrades massive GPU and Zen core upgrades. You can quote me in the hall of shame if i'm wrong
 
Hard to argue against the illusive brand value, but it seems like consoles are looked down upon only by a minority consisting mostly of high-end PC gamers. Otherwise, I don't really see the PS4 being perceived as cheap. On the other hand, graphics seems to be a significant reason the playstation is being favoured over the Xbox this generation. So, I can see why Sony would want to maintain that.



I agree. A mid-cycle refresh is probably a lot cheaper, so this will help Sony get more out of this generation by prolonging it. But it does seem a bit risky, especially with the current sales being on their side. What if Microsoft decides to not follow suit and releases Xbox 2 in late 2017 or 2018? Sony will be in a tough spot because it'll be too soon for a PS5, and even if they do release a PS5 alongside the competition, it'll be hard to convince all the PS4 Neo users to upgrade again in just a year.

Where are MS going to get tech that lets them sell a significantly superior console for $400 in 2017?
 
smaller updates is all we will get ever again, unless you move to new platform completely...

PS5 will be another smaller update compared to Neo if they ever call it PS5. They might rename it Playstation and thats it.

2019 and 2020 are a long way away. Long enough for some real technological advances.
 
Who would get the regular PS4 at 299$ with the P4K at 399$? The PS4k at 399$ makes a 299$ PS4 look like a bad deal. PS4 249~299$ and a 499$ PS4k is the perfect initial price and it extends a generation that they are already dominating for a little longer.

Typically when buying gifts for others we take the cheaper route. Brother wants a PS4? OG PS4 for you sir.
 
I think some people are taking this in a way in that PS4K is actually supposed to deliver a completely raised experience over PS4.
smaller updates is all we will get ever again, unless you move to new platform completely...
Sounds like a lot of speculation and doom mongering without much proof. Not saying its not possible, but negative nancies have tended to look at the absolute worst case scenario first with this kind of thing
2019 and 2020 are a long way away. Long enough for some real technological advances.

In terms of generational shifts why does it have to change anything? The average is about 5x faster each generation. Some here have argued for a 10TFlop(+) PS5 as being a big enough leap from PS4, well...

1.8TFlop (PS4 - 2013) -> (x2.3) -> 4.14TFlop (PS4.5 - 2016) -> (x2.5) -> 10.35TFlop (PS5 -2019)

1.8TFlop (PS4 - 2016) -> (x5) -> 9TFlop (PS5 - 2019)

To my mind we're just smoothing out the curve, not changing it. We're bring the PS4 generation closer to the PS5 generation and providing more resources to the cross-generation titles when that time comes. So long as the architecture/API's don't fundamentally change then we get full BC as well.

Life goes on. Playstation gradually gets better. You choose when to take the plunge from one era to the next.
 
In an ideal world the PS4 would be $250 and the PS4K $399 when the new hardware launches. That way they capture the casuals with impulse buy pricing with the PS4, plus the enthusiasts who just want the best, but are still only willing to spend a reasonable amount with the PS4K. Really it's disappointing the PS4 is still so highly priced at $350. I would have expected it's holiday price of $299 to be the default MSRP by now. Hell, the PS2 was went from $299 to just $199 after only a year and a half. But I suppose the PS4 is already selling so well, with such little competition that there's really no need for Sony to aggressively price drop.
 
In terms of generational shifts why does it have to change anything? The average is about 5x faster each generation. Some here have argued for a 10TFlop(+) PS5 as being a big enough leap from PS4, well...

1.8TFlop (PS4 - 2013) -> (x2.3) -> 4.14TFlop (PS4.5 - 2016) -> (x2.5) -> 10.35TFlop (PS5 -2019)

1.8TFlop (PS4 - 2016) -> (x5) -> 9TFlop (PS5 - 2019)

To my mind we're just smoothing out the curve, not changing it. We're bring the PS4 generation closer to the PS5 generation and providing more resources to the cross-generation titles when that time comes. So long as the architecture/API's don't fundamentally change then we get full BC as well.

Life goes on. Playstation gradually gets better. You choose when to take the plunge from one era to the next.



Will the 2.5x boost happen in such a small tdp though, in 3 years.

14nm took so long from 28nm...
Between PS3 and PS4, which was 7 years. We've gone from 90nm to 28nm.
But for PS4 to PS4K ?
It will be 3 years and 14nm will just arrive to GPUs.
 
In terms of generational shifts why does it have to change anything? The average is about 5x faster each generation. Some here have argued for a 10TFlop(+) PS5 as being a big enough leap from PS4, well...

1.8TFlop (PS4 - 2013) -> (x2.3) -> 4.14TFlop (PS4.5 - 2016) -> (x2.5) -> 10.35TFlop (PS5 -2019)

1.8TFlop (PS4 - 2016) -> (x5) -> 9TFlop (PS5 - 2019)

To my mind we're just smoothing out the curve, not changing it. We're bring the PS4 generation closer to the PS5 generation and providing more resources to the cross-generation titles when that time comes. So long as the architecture/API's don't fundamentally change then we get full BC as well.

Life goes on. Playstation gradually gets better. You choose when to take the plunge from one era to the next.
Change the PS5 date to 2021 not 2019
1.8TFlop (PS4 - 2013) -> (x2.3) -> 4.14TFlop (PS4.5 - 2016) -> (x2.5) -> 10.35TFlop (PS5 -2021)

The 25X more efficient APU by 2020 announcement by AMD needs to be taken into account. They have a roadmap both Microsoft and Sony will have already planned to use. 2017-2018 with HBM is likely when the XB1 iteration is released.

Both will have their next generation at the same time when the technology supports a shift to Ray tracing or some other more efficient scheme at 4K.
 
Change the PS5 date to 2021 not 2019
1.8TFlop (PS4 - 2013) -> (x2.3) -> 4.14TFlop (PS4.5 - 2016) -> (x2.5) -> 10.35TFlop (PS5 -2021)

The 25X more efficient APU by 2020 announcement by AMD needs to be taken into account. They have a roadmap both Microsoft and Sony will have already planned to use. 2017-2018 with HBM is likely when the XB1 iteration is released.

Do you think they can stretch PS4 support to 2021? PS4 will be 8 years old by then. Or do you think they'll drop PS4 support and focus on Neo in the 2019-21 time-frame?

If they stick with a 3yr model then 2022 would be the guesstimated time-frame for PS5.5. Would the tech be here by then to offer 25TFlops in 2022? Or should we start expecting narrower margins, and if so why hold off till 2021 for PS5?

Neo makes no sense to me if they are either prolonging PS4's lifespan or cutting compatibility and starting a complete fresh gen with PS5.
 
I hope the Neo will be equal in Power to the Microsoft machine.

Was expecting something new when I saw this thread back on the front page. It's really doubtful it will be as powerful. Since devkits have been in developers hands for a while now apparently. Plus don't forget MS hasn't spilled all their beans yet and they can now sit back, watch Sony announce Neo and if they want change things if needed.
 
The neo must be in full production now. There is no way Sony can fit more power into a box that size. The PS4.5 will be coming second but the PS5 will be a new book.
 
Sony are already many miles ahead sales-wise, and are launching their 'premium' model a year before Microsoft. I don't think they really have anything to worry about there, they still have an advantage. Not only that but I cannot see Neo or Scorpio doing their predecessor's numbers until the PS4 and XB1 die.
 
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