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[Durante]

Because the fact that AF has no performance impact is a misconception?

Are you seriously stipulating that, say, Strider, is using AF on XB1 and not on PS4 because of performance constraints? Come on.

It doesn't.
Different ports, by different teams, at different resolution, choosing to cut corners at different places, an artist mistakenly switching AF off on a given texture...
There are plenty of reasons that can explains what's seen here. None of them have anything to do with an hypothetical hardware or software issue.

But can it really happen this often by chance? Even if it's just some API difference which is insufficiently documented then I'd still call that an issue -- since the result is clearly an issue.

 

[ninjablade]

There's definitely some level of AF, the degree to which I'm not sure.

But yea, the anomaly with other games really needs to be sorted. AF is not such an expensive feature that it deserves omission.

damn those graphics are just insane man, i would love every ps4 game to have this level of graphics.

 

[Dictator93]

XBO's API has less abstraction when utilizing DX functions. I don't think it explains everything but is the only guess I've seen that makes any sense.

The situation still doesnt make sense, look at the assumption as he describes it.
1. Dev blindly throws HLSL on PS4
2. Realizes that this runs poorly in bandwidth and the game is missing the performance target (even though it doesnt on xb1... apparently)
3. Turns off AF to fix this performance problem

That was the theorey as said by NXgamer. I really think it makes no sense at a number of places there.

 

[wowzors]

Yeah i dont really understand the whole mediocre AF thing.

 

[Shin-Ra]

The most logical answer would be bandwidth.
Xbone uses less bandwidth due to lower resolution in most games and has higher theoretical bandwidth if ESRAM and DDR3 is used right.

Maybe its down to 1080p>900p and 900p>720p ?. Could it just be the XB1 having alittle bit of head room for slightly better AF after the res has been set ?

That Unfinished Swan gif needs to be explained though. Developer error or what ?

Forza Horizon 2 has AF, it's just not a particularly good solution. Same with Driveclub.

Picking a shot with a load of motion blur isn't a great example and I'm not sure if you're trying to disprove FH2 has insufficient AF.

 

[chris0701]

It's possible, but as you point out it doesn't explain every situation we've seen. And there are several games that would seem to defy that idea. We haven't gotten a concrete reason/statement from any of the devs of the specific games with the problem, so it's really hard to do anything but speculate and scratch your head.

I think game dev can't reveal really deep information about why low level AF is needed , it just ...the performance not work to meet your expectation for your standard (i.e 16x AF).

When you see some low performance in your scene, how do you find that there is no middleware/compiler bug or SDK driver issue ?

AF has been discard firstly because the impact is less than texture quality, shader and resolution.

 

[mintylurb]

ITS ONE CUTSCENE

lol

I think DF knew what they were doing when they even put that into the analysis. I mean who comments on a single cutscene of an entire game having a difference between 2 versions? Its a non-issue they turned into an issue. Instant clicks.

To be fair, DF has done something similar in the past where they mention missing detail, lighting, texture in certain scenes compared to other versions.

 

[c0de]

Picking a shot with a load of motion blur isn't a great example and I'm not sure if you're trying to disprove FH2 has insufficient AF.

Posting a picture of a launch game is better?

 

[RoboPlato]

The situation still doesnt make sense, look at the assumption as he describes it.
1. Dev blindly throws HLSL on PS4
2. Realizes that this runs poorly in bandwidth and the game is missing the performance target (even though it doesnt on xb1... apparently)
3. Turns off AF to fix this performance problem

That was the theorey as said by NXgamer. I really think it makes no sense at a number of places there.

Actually glad for this post. Was hoping someone could give more insight into it. NXGamer has been getting better overall lately but this makes it clear that the theory is flawed. I really don't know what it could be. It makes no sense.

 

[Shin-Ra]

Posting a picture of a launch game is better?

A 720p launch game. And Ryse has a decent level of AF.

And inFAMOUS SS is an open-world, 1080p game with decent AF, shortly after launch.

 

[Dictator93]

Actually glad for this post. Was hoping someone could give more insight into it. NXGamer has been getting better overall lately but this makes it clear that the theory is flawed. I really don't know what it could be. It makes no sense.

I really think it is something that isnt straight forward, or an easy oversight that many devs have in the SDK. The whole PS3 version has AF but PS4 version stuff points to this the most.

A 720p launch game. And Ryse has a decent level of AF.

Yeah, Ryse did have good AF if I remember well. And that is a game where would imagine AF might be sacraficed for other stuff that uses bandwidth.

 

[DGaio]

NXGamer has an interesting hypothesis about this. It's just a guess but it makes most sense to me. He thinks a lot of devs are porting over from DX11 and are using the higher level API on PS4, which has added overhead, because that makes the porting process easier since it emulates DX.

Aren't many of the titles with AF problem stem from the middleware used? One example would be UDK / UE3 versions, such as the most recent title DMC Definite Edition. If that's the case I can see why the Xbox One version as the upper hand in using older versions of the middleware tools without many problems since the underlining hardware composition hasn't change much - for example they both have 2 pools of memory (main and eDram / Sdram) - especially in regards of how the the API interfaces with the hardware.

With the somewhat radical change in architecture from PS3 to PS4 - in the case of the latter, a change to be more in line with off the shelve hardware and working similar how AMD, Nvidia and even Xbox hardware does - I can see some of this problems arising because many of those middleware companies ( Epic, Crytek, etc) are trying to retrofit previous or old tools intended for other similar hardware. And because the PS4 isn't using DirectX or OpenGL for that matter, trying to "connect" the same code to the new API can create this type of problems.

Something you need to realize is that a lot of game engines - and I worked with a few - have fail safes (like any properly working engine has) that if the code running doesn't return the proper response, will shutdown that part of the engine instead of crashing the whole thing - maybe in this case the code to create proper AF isn't returning the correct value, and thats why it isn't working properly on the PS4 version of the game. That doesn't mean PS4 isn't capable, but something in the middleware tool isn't working or connecting correctly to make it work.

That's why in my opinion, it's not an hardware problem but a software problem, and in this case, the graphic engine being used, which from what I'm seeing it's happening in old versions of some specific engines.

 

[Jux]

Are you seriously stipulating that, say, Strider, is using AF on XB1 and not on PS4 because of performance constraints? Come on.

That's not what I'm saying. I obviously can't know the real reason in any of the specific cases mentionned here. I myself find it pretty unbelivable that a game like Strider, which is not a graphical powerhouse does not have it here. Im merely saying that performance can be one of the reasons. Here, a screw somewhere is more likely.

But can it really happen this often by chance? Even if it's just some API difference which is insufficiently documented then I'd still call that an issue -- since the result is clearly an issue.

/shrug. AF is pretty much just an enum value in a low level structure.

 

[Z3M0G]

ITS ONE CUTSCENE

lol

I think DF knew what they were doing when they even put that into the analysis. I mean who comments on a single cutscene of an entire game having a difference between 2 versions? Its a non-issue they turned into an issue. Instant clicks.

I'm done with DF... they obviously hunt for any differences they can find, and then glorify the hell out of them for clicks.

RE:R2 gets choppy on PS4 in the forest areas, but I doubt I would have noticed much without them staring a storm over it, and it definitely doesn't affect gameplay in the slightest.

 

[RoyalFool]

Something you need to realize is that a lot of game engines - and I worked with a few - have fail safes (like any properly working engine has) that if the code running doesn't return the proper response, will shutdown that part of the engine instead of crashing the whole thing - maybe in this case the code to create proper AF isn't returning the correct value,

As a developer this baffles me, game engines do two things when they encounter an error - ignore them completely and hope it goes away, or crash. I've never seen any game "turn off" a thread of functionality in order to save the main game from crashing; can you imagine if GTA5 hit a physics glitch and just decided to stop doing physics. >_<

Maybe I misunderstood.

The AF issue could just be down to something silly like it defaulting to off, or developers feeling the pressure to maintain a solid FPS at 1080p. It's a weird thing to disable as it only takes up a small amount of overhead, but it's also one of the safest adjustments to make late on in the dev cycle as you don't need to re-test the whole thing or remake assets. No game-play goal ever became unachievable because they disabled AF.

The solution is for Sony to put it's foot down, they have the final say as to what gets pressed and what doesn't. If enough people kick up a stink for them to think this is giving Microsoft some ammunition they'll just make it a requirement for certification.

My guess is it's just defaulting to off and middleware isn't turning it on correctly, a game like Strider runs fucking solid at 60fps - if it wasn't for the vsync I imagine it'd easily double that frame-rate.

 

[Durante]

That's not what I'm saying. I obviously can't know the real reason in any of the specific cases mentionned here. I myself find it pretty unbelivable that a game like Strider, which is not a graphical powerhouse does not have it here. Im merely saying that performance can be one of the reasons. Here, a screw somewhere is more likely.

Well, as I said earlier I certainly agree for some games, like e.g. The Order. Just not for some of the other examples.

/shrug. AF is pretty much just an enum value in a low level structure.

Indeed, but that doesn't mean it's always represented or set the same way at a higher level. You could have it bound per sampler or per texture, a global override setting could exist or it couldn't, it could be reset on a given state change or not, etc. Obviously you have a better idea of that than me.

 

[c0de]

A 720p launch game. And Ryse has a decent level of AF.

And inFAMOUS SS is an open-world, 1080p game with decent AF, shortly after launch.

I don't know why you compare iss with dr3 as they surely have a lot of difference regarding load on the system. But we do know that the xdk at launch was in a horrible state so Ryse and forza were only the exception of the rule.

 

[dark10x]

I'm done with DF... they obviously hunt for any differences they can find, and then glorify the hell out of them for clicks.

RE:R2 gets choppy on PS4 in the forest areas, but I doubt I would have noticed much without them staring a storm over it, and it definitely doesn't affect gameplay in the slightest.

What are you even talking about? The entire purpose of the site is to point out these differences. Who the hell does it benefit to ignore a full 30 fps difference in performance between two different versions of a game? So if it doesn't bother you it shouldn't be reported on? Why exactly? These critiques aren't made for the Madden buying casual gamers, you know. Most people playing these games don't care about these differences but that's not the audience for the site, now is it?

This PS4 issue absolutely, positively NEEDS attention. DF is one of the few places that can actually continuously point this issue out. It should NOT be swept under the rug.

 

[KKRT00]

Yeah, Ryse did have good AF if I remember well. And that is a game where would imagine AF might be sacraficed for other stuff that uses bandwidth.

It was 4x on most surfaces, with some having higher.
So pretty much current gen 'standard'.

http://i3.minus.com/ibirx9q8FmRbiV.png
http://i1.minus.com/i15fU3Tpg0lbC.png
http://i4.minus.com/iiqhc49UOfMF9.png
http://i3.minus.com/iQauzde7zeC0i.png

 

[DGaio]

The AF issue could just be down to something silly like it defaulting to off, or developers feeling the pressure to maintain a solid FPS at 1080p. It's a weird thing to disable as it only takes up a small amount of overhead, but it's also one of the safest adjustments to make late on in the dev cycle as you don't need to re-test the whole thing or remake assets. No game-play goal ever became unachievable because they disabled AF.

That's what I was trying to convey when I said "shutdown" - it's there in the hardware but the engine isn't turning that feature on for whatever reason. I don't have access or any specific other than superficial understanding how the SDK works, but if other games have successfully used it before, it's because the SDK or whatever examples it has of it working, it is exposed to the developers in someway. It's that in this particular cases, or using specific middleware tools such as this, isn't using it correctly maybe? I'm not going to assume "lazy developers" or anything of that sort, because from the titles mentioned, were offloaded to or handled by small developers who probably use those tools as they are (that can't afford or have the time to tinker with it).

 

[Elandyll]

What are you even talking about? The entire purpose of the site is to point out these differences. Who the hell does it benefit to ignore a full 30 fps difference in performance between two different versions of a game? So if it doesn't bother you it shouldn't be reported on? Why exactly? These critiques aren't made for the Madden buying casual gamers, you know. Most people playing these games don't care about these differences but that's not the audience for the site, now is it?

This PS4 issue absolutely, positively NEEDS attention. DF is one of the few places that can actually continuously point this issue out. It should NOT be swept under the rug.

I absolutely agree that the AF thing is weird and needs attention.

This is why we need the gaming media to go to the devs and ask why things are the way they are in the titles exhibiting these problems (a small minority of titles apparently).

Sony's position via their ace tech team (DICE) is clear: There is no AF problem in the PS4 dev kit.

PS4 titles have proven already that competent AF is absolutely possible on PS4.

The last possibility is a dev thing, whether by choice (perf impact, lack of time to optimize...), tool problem (like a DX -> PS4 OpenGL conversion) or whatever else it could be.

 

[Monty Mole]

I'm done with DF... they obviously hunt for any differences they can find, and then glorify the hell out of them for clicks.

RE:R2 gets choppy on PS4 in the forest areas, but I doubt I would have noticed much without them staring a storm over it, and it definitely doesn't affect gameplay in the slightest.

That's the whole point of DF - to do detailed analysis and point out any issues or quirks no matter how small. Lack of AF is no small issue though, one of my pet hates and I hope this issue is resigned to the past very soon.

FWIW I love DF's face-offs and it doesn't bother me if they use the occasional sensationalist headline or quote, all part of the fun. Not sure why people get so worked up about it!

 

[IndoAssassin]

Maybe its down to 1080p>900p and 900p>720p ?. Could it just be the XB1 having alittle bit of head room for slightly better AF after the res has been set ?

That Unfinished Swan gif needs to be explained though. Developer error or what ?

But aren't stryder. RE remaster, DmC 1080p on both? How do you explain the difference there?

 

[IconGrist]

I'm not an expert on this and my two cents here may come off as worthless but reading the thread I can only wonder why most everyone seems so quick to blame the PS4 instead of the devs of those particular games with poor or no AF implementation? Even when it's explained it's not a PS4 issue and instead a dev problem this thread still circles back to it being a PS4 issue.

I mean, there are plenty of PS4 games with AF which should quell any talk about PS4 being the problem.

 

[IAmRandom31]

This PS4 issue absolutely, positively NEEDS attention. DF is one of the few places that can actually continuously point this issue out. It should NOT be swept under the rug.

Sounds like something a technical website would try to make a story about. Investigate the issue. Call up some developers. Ask around. Try and get someone on the phone for an interview, or 2 people, or 10 people. Try and talk to an ICE team member or a tech dude at Sony to see how AF is implemented within the API in the SDK's. Something. Talk to a developer directly to see why AF is where it is.

And you say " the PS4 issue ", so you are certain it is hardware?

 

[c0de]

And you say " the PS4 issue ", so you are certain it is hardware?

I think he means the system in total. “happens sometimes on ps4, not on xbone“. How would you word it?

 

[omonimo]

I'm not an expert on this and my two cents here may come off as worthless but reading the thread I can only wonder why most everyone seems so quick to blame the PS4 instead of the devs of those particular games with poor or no AF implementation? Even when it's explained it's not a PS4 issue and instead a dev problem this thread still circles back to it being a PS4 issue.

I mean, there are plenty of PS4 games with AF which should quell any talk about PS4 being the problem.

I'm starting to think you haven't read at all this thread. I don't remember a single post who pointed out it's an hardware fault, far the contrary.

 

[dark10x]

Sounds like something a technical website would try to make a story about. Investigate the issue. Call up some developers. Ask around. Try and get someone on the phone for an interview, or 2 people, or 10 people. Try and talk to an ICE team member or a tech dude at Sony to see how AF is implemented within the API in the SDK's. Something. Talk to a developer directly to see why AF is where it is.

And you say " the PS4 issue ", so you are certain it is hardware?

PS4 issue only refers to the fact that it's a problem on PS4. I am quite confident that it is NOT a hardware issue. In some instances, it could be, but for most of these situations the problem clearly lies elsewhere. I don't think anyone is suggesting it's a hardware issue.

What's odd is that the teams responsible for these ports are weirdly silent about the issue when asked. I've yet to hear a good, satisfying answer.

 

[Wereroku]

PS4 issue only refers to the fact that it's a problem on PS4. I am quite confident that it is NOT a hardware issue. In some instances, it could be, but for most of these situations the problem clearly lies elsewhere. I don't think anyone is suggesting it's a hardware issue.

What's odd is that the teams responsible for these ports are weirdly silent about the issue when asked. I've yet to hear a good, satisfying answer.

So you have asked around then? What answers were you given if you don't mind sharing a bit.

 

[IconGrist]

I'm starting to think you haven't read at all this thread. I don't remember a single post who pointed it's an hardware fault, far the contrary.

I didn't say it was pointed out definitively. More insinuated due to the "Then why does Xbox One have it?" posts.

 

[omonimo]

So you have asked around then?

He said they not answer to the question.

I didn't say it was pointed out definitively. More insinuated due to the "Then why does Xbox One have it?" posts.

A very minority here tries to insinuate but they are quite unfair to the matter.

 

[dark10x]

So you have asked around then?

Within my scope, I have asked around, and haven't heard anything about it.

I do have plans to ask more people about it next time I go to a convention/trade show, though. I didn't think about it last year but it's continued to be an issue. Usually, though, people seem to shrug and have no answer. It would be nice to talk directly to some of the coders about it but that doesn't seem to be easy to do in most cases.

 

[c0de]

What's odd is that the teams responsible for these ports are weirdly silent about the issue when asked. I've yet to hear a good, satisfying answer.

I posted a theory that there could be an issue with bandwidth when CPU is relying on the bandwidth, too, but I don't know how credible the source for this is.

 

[IAmRandom31]

PS4 issue only refers to the fact that it's a problem on PS4. I am quite confident that it is NOT a hardware issue. In some instances, it could be, but for most of these situations the problem clearly lies elsewhere. I don't think anyone is suggesting it's a hardware issue.

What's odd is that the teams responsible for these ports are weirdly silent about the issue when asked. I've yet to hear a good, satisfying answer.

silence in the gaming industry is one of my pet peeves about the industry.

its like a secret society where those within are so NDA'ed they can't even answer what they ate for breakfast that morning. Let alone speak to any sort of details about coding engines or whatever. Anytime someone does climb out of the cave to talk they have a team of PR guys hanging over their heads telling them what to say.

I posted a theory that there could be an issue with bandwidth when CPU is relying on the bandwidth, too, but I don't know how credible the source for this is.

That theory would make a bit of sense considering the architecture of the PS4. But Durante was pretty direct in that AF has nothing to do with the CPU side of things. So .... * shrug * lol

 

[dark10x]

I posted a theory that there could be an issue with bandwidth when CPU is relying on the bandwidth, too, but I don't know how credible the source for this is.

I could see issues cropping up in some cases but less demanding titles, like these UE3 games, shouldn't be having such issues.

I mean, something like Strider or DmC shouldn't have to resort to trilinear filtering.

silence in the gaming industry is one of my pet peeves about the industry.

Yeah, it's all controlled heavily by PR and the like.

I'll bet the coders and such would love to come out and talk more about this stuff but ultimately aren't kept away from anyone that might publish something they have to say.

That's why I always enjoy John Carmack's talks or .plans (from back in the day) or whatever - he had enough clout that he could just say whatever the heck he wanted to.

I still wish I could get through to SOMEONE at Techland to see if they could fix the frame-rate cap glitch in Dying Light on PS4. They've been releasing so many patches but this issue never gets touched and there's no one to talk to about it.

 

[IconGrist]

He said they not answer to the question.
A very minority here tries to insinuate but they are quite unfair to the matter.

Then I apologize for my "most everyone" comment. I guess those were the posts that just stuck out as I read the thread.

 

[omonimo]

I have the suspect they not answer because they ignore what's the cause of the issue.

 

[c0de]

I could see issues cropping up in some cases but less demanding titles, like these UE3 games, shouldn't be having such issues.

I mean, something like Strider or DmC shouldn't have to resort to trilinear filtering.

I think the problem is also to conclude the game load by looking at it. We just don't know what kind of load a game has and can only guess.

 

[Mastperf]

I posted a theory that there could be an issue with bandwidth when CPU is relying on the bandwidth, too, but I don't know how credible the source for this is.

I can't see how there was enough bandwidth for games like Infamous, Killzone and The Order but Strider had to exclude it.

 

[R_Deckard]

The situation still doesnt make sense, look at the assumption as he describes it.
1. Dev blindly throws HLSL on PS4
2. Realizes that this runs poorly in bandwidth and the game is missing the performance target (even though it doesnt on xb1... apparently)
3. Turns off AF to fix this performance problem

That was the theorey as said by NXgamer. I really think it makes no sense at a number of places there.

But it really does, if a middleware solution has a error or fault then these things can be turned off by default. This game does not have the amount of texture work to qualify having these disabled, the bandwidth/overhead/API issue he mentions is not only plausible but entirely possible.

The fact it happens or not could be a simple question of time/effort or budget, lets see if the XboxOne version has it enabled.

 

[omonimo]

I can't see how there was enough bandwidth for games like Infamous, Killzone and The Order but Strider had to exclude it.

To be honest those games are not exactly the best example of good AF on ps4, especially The Order.

 

[dark10x]

I think the problem is also to conclude the game load by looking at it. We just don't know what kind of load a game has and can only guess.

I think we have pretty good ideas about those UE3 games, though. We won't know the specifics on PS4, of course, but we can gauge based on PC performance and tweaks as well as last gen console performance. I mean, DmC features better texture filtering on the PS3 and 360 which is just nuts.

To be honest those games are not exactly the best example of good AF on ps4, especially The Order.

They all have SOME AF, though. Strider (and other UE3 games) have absolutely none.

 

[Shin-Ra]

I don't know why you compare iss with dr3 as they surely have a lot of difference regarding load on the system. But we do know that the xdk at launch was in a horrible state so Ryse and forza were only the exception of the rule.

How about Halo 3 and 4 as previous-gen remasters, neither running classic and updated graphics modes so that's not an excuse.

 

[Mastperf]

To be honest those games are not exactly the best example of good AF on ps4, especially The Order.

True, but Strider has no AF at all. There's also the game that has AF on PS3 but none on the PS4.

 

[c0de]

I can't see how there was enough bandwidth for games like Infamous, Killzone and The Order but Strider had to exclude it.

I remember that the devs of Infamous said that they did gpgpu for some stuff so they shifted computing from CPU to gpu.
It could also be that the stuff they did on the CPU didn't “steal“ much of the bandwidth for the gpu.
I would really like to see how different load cases cause different bandwidth numbers on ps4.

 

[omonimo]

I think we have pretty good ideas about those UE3 games, though. We won't know the specifics on PS4, of course, but we can gauge based on PC performance and tweaks as well as last gen console performance. I mean, DmC features better texture filtering on the PS3 and 360 which is just nuts.


They all have SOME AF, though. Strider (and other UE3 games) have absolutely none.

Of course, I just said AF is not exactly the best thing in those games. There are more valid examples like TLoU where it's really good or TR and Sniper 3 which have better AF compared of the xbone version.

 

[c0de]

How about Halo 3 and 4 as previous-gen remasters, neither running classic and updated graphics modes so that's not an excuse.

Given the state of how mcc launched, it is no surprise for all of us that the individual games didn't get much polish at all.

 

[SkylineRKR]

Most Sony first party games seem to offer it, but third parties here and there strangely do not. Perhaps it demands a slight workaround and some ignore it.

Outside of first parties, it seems Rockstar, Crystal Dynamics (Nixxes?), DICE, Sledgehammer and Ubisoft utilize AF on PS4 just fine. There are more but those come to mind.

Its so random is what makes it weird. And it does bother me a bit, because Strider for example was looking quite a bit worse which should be unnecessary imho.

 

[omonimo]

Most Sony first party games seem to offer it, but third parties here and there strangely do not. Perhaps it demands a slight workaround and some ignore it.

Outside of first parties, it seems Rockstar, Crystal Dynamics (Nixxes?), DICE, Sledgehammer and Ubisoft utilize AF on PS4 just fine. There are more but those come to mind.

Rockstar not so much at all.

 

[-griffy-]

Rockstar not so much at all.

Same for DICE. AF in BF4 was very lacking on both platforms. Probably around 4x in both GTAV and BF4. Though in both cases AF was identical between XBO and PS4.